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Where is Elijah??
The King James bible says that Elijah was taken to heaven. Here is the verse:
"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven"
According to the Orthodox theology, one enters heaven only after the resurrection.The only Saint that is in heaven is The Blessed Virgin Mary. The Saints are not in heaven,but somewhere else.Yet, the above verse is talking about Elija's ascension to heaven, which is not consistent with our dogma.
I am only speculating here, could there be an error in translation?
"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven"
According to the Orthodox theology, one enters heaven only after the resurrection.The only Saint that is in heaven is The Blessed Virgin Mary. The Saints are not in heaven,but somewhere else.Yet, the above verse is talking about Elija's ascension to heaven, which is not consistent with our dogma.
I am only speculating here, could there be an error in translation?
Comments
That verse I think is only saying that he was taken into the sky, notice heaven isn't capitilized so it cannot be referring to the Heaven of heavens where the Throne of our Lord is. As you said, no one knows where Elijah(or Enoch) is waiting.
i have to disagree. in the BIble, heaven, the ultimate ending place, isn't capitalized. it verse means what it reads.
I am trying to translate the Greek verse into English to see what it says,but so far to no avail.I suspect something has gone haywire in the translation.A word might be missing.
For all we know, Elijah could still be around and invisible.
GBU,
Holy Bible
he is not in heaven he is in the paradise of joy when god comes everyone who went to paradise(Elijah the saints(except st Mary) and every good cristian)Will go to Heaven with Christ. ;D
as much as i don't like saying that, i would like to see a source.
Hezekiel, please find that writing of St Athansius about this.
GBU,
Holy Bible
my scources are my sunday school teachers we stayed almost an hour working on it they got it from abouna :D
well my source is also my abouna who is very knowledgeable of the Bible.
well my source is also my abouna who is very knowledgeable of the Bible.
It seems that your Abouna has said that Elijah is in heaven? I am curious to know it.
Here is the problem. The Orthodox teaching about heaven is sound.Heaven is accesible only after the final judgement.The verse in 2 kings 2:11 is clearly saying that Elijah went to heaven.There seem to be no ambigous language there.The context is as clear as the waters of the red sea.What I am saying is that, either something is wrong with the words that say 'to heaven' or I am missing something that I can not decipher.I am holding my friend hostage for he wrote that Elijah went to heaven, and I contested his point.
I would like to think, it has to do with the wording in the translation. Do we have someone who understands Greek? I enclose the URL to the Greek Bible and I could not get the translation of the verse as the fonts are not recognized by the computer I am using. All you need to do is scroll down until you see 11 and that is the verse at hand. To get to the book of Kings, all you have to do is count to 12 in the list of books, and voila you find 2 kings .
http://www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/bible/bible.asp?contents=old_testament/contents_VasilionD.asp&main=vasilionD&file=12.2.htm
Any info is appreciated.
PS: I confirmed that St Athansius did say the Elijah did no go to heaven.I am desperately googling his homily on ascension.
I thought the rule is NO HUMAN can enter the heaven...not like u are saying "after judgment Day" ?!
What I meant to say is that, the righteous enters heaven only on the day of judgement with a new spritual and glorified body.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7358.msg97397#msg97397 date=1227136020]
I thought the rule is NO HUMAN can enter the heaven...not like u are saying "after judgment Day" ?!
What I meant to say is that, the righteous enters heaven only on the day of judgement with a new spritual and glorified body.
well think about it.
part of of the current human nature is that a human will die and then go to paradise of hell, then on last day the heaven of hades.
BUT, Elijah has never died. sooo....
actually the real question i want to get an aswer for is, do you remember when the Jews said to our Lord that Elijah and Enoch have to come first, and Christi's answer was like "they might of did already".
Now, where does it says in the OT that Elijah and Enoch have to come first????!!!!!
And here is the text of the event in question:
“Και εγένετο αυτών πορευομένων, επορεύοντο και ελάλουν (Ηλίας και Ελισσαιέ)· και ιδού άρμα πυρός και ίπποι πυρός και διέστειλεν ανά μέσον αμφοτέρων και ανελήφθη Ηλιού εν συσσεισμώ ΩΣ εις τον ουρανόν”
(And it came to be, while they were walking, as they walked and spoke (Elijah and Elisha), behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire parted the two of them, and Elijah was swept up, in an upheaval, AS IF into the heavens) (Kings 4, 1:11).
The expression «AS IF into the heavens» is clear evidence that he did not actually ascend INTO heaven. However, many people have been misled and have incorrectly interpreted this text, because they have read a paraphrased Old Testament text, and not the actual text. The paraphrased text says: “and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven”, proof that this little word «ΩΣ» carries the potential to solve the issue and to prove that Elijah did not go up, into heaven.
Saint Athanasius' homily:
Therefore you, my beloved one, observe with precision the word ΩΣ, and let not this Scriptural syllable’s treasure and power escape your notice, nor through any misinterpretation (of the ascension) be misled into equating the Lord with the supplicant (Elijah). FOR ELIJAH DID NOT ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, nor did he -by traversing the firmament- become a resident of its courts; instead, pay attention to what the text mentions: “Upon sweeping up Elijah AS IF into Heaven”. Behold, one small word (ΩΣ) was given to portray Elijah as moving upwards; for it was enough that the Prophet was honored by a semblance (AS IF) of ascent; Heaven could never receive a supplicant (Elijah) before receiving the Lord – for nobody has ever gone up to Heaven, except the Son of Man, Who is in Heaven. Heaven was reserved, for the Creator, the beginner of mankind. Thus, with Enoch and Elijah, God gladdened the people with a promising hope, by spreading before them an ‘airborne highway’, as though for horse-drawn vehicles. ( Homily B’ on the Ascension.)
well think about it.
part of of the current human nature is that a human will die and then go to paradise of hell, then on last day the heaven of hades.
BUT, Elijah has never died. sooo....
actually the real question i want to get an aswer for is, do you remember when the Jews said to our Lord that Elijah and Enoch have to come first, and Christi's answer was like "they might of did already".
Now, where does it says in the OT that Elijah and Enoch have to come first????!!!!!
What do you mean by "Elias has never died, sooo.."? So where is he? Remember according to 2 kings 4:11, he was taken to heaven. Mr/Mrs holybible said,according to his sunday school teacher, Eias is in Paradise, which sounds coherent,but why does the OT say 'to heaven'?
I do not know about Enoch, but here is what the OT says about Elias which the disciples understood John the baptist to mean Elias .John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elias,but he is not Elias.
Malachi 4
5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."
I was looking this topic up and I found a Greek Orthodox website that may explain this: http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogma/diafora/Hlias1.htm
And here is the text of the event in question:
“Και εγένετο αυτών πορευομένων, επορεύοντο και ελάλουν (Ηλίας και Ελισσαιέ)· και ιδού άρμα πυρός και ίπποι πυρός και διέστειλεν ανά μέσον αμφοτέρων και ανελήφθη Ηλιού εν συσσεισμώ ΩΣ εις τον ουρανόν”
(And it came to be, while they were walking, as they walked and spoke (Elijah and Elisha), behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire parted the two of them, and Elijah was swept up, in an upheaval, AS IF into the heavens) (Kings 4, 1:11).
The expression «AS IF into the heavens» is clear evidence that he did not actually ascend INTO heaven. However, many people have been misled and have incorrectly interpreted this text, because they have read a paraphrased Old Testament text, and not the actual text. The paraphrased text says: “and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven”, proof that this little word «ΩΣ» carries the potential to solve the issue and to prove that Elijah did not go up, into heaven.
Saint Athanasius' homily:
Therefore you, my beloved one, observe with precision the word ΩΣ, and let not this Scriptural syllable’s treasure and power escape your notice, nor through any misinterpretation (of the ascension) be misled into equating the Lord with the supplicant (Elijah). FOR ELIJAH DID NOT ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, nor did he -by traversing the firmament- become a resident of its courts; instead, pay attention to what the text mentions: “Upon sweeping up Elijah AS IF into Heaven”. Behold, one small word (ΩΣ) was given to portray Elijah as moving upwards; for it was enough that the Prophet was honored by a semblance (AS IF) of ascent; Heaven could never receive a supplicant (Elijah) before receiving the Lord – for nobody has ever gone up to Heaven, except the Son of Man, Who is in Heaven. Heaven was reserved, for the Creator, the beginner of mankind. Thus, with Enoch and Elijah, God gladdened the people with a promising hope, by spreading before them an ‘airborne highway’, as though for horse-drawn vehicles. ( Homily B’ on the Ascension.)
SilentOne,
Wow,thank you so much. There could be no better explanation than the one provided by the great Saint Athanisus. Also, the fact that the King James bible has some translation errors, however small they appear, that could make a big difference in our understanding of the scriptures is unsettling. I wonder why our Orthodox scholars do not bother to explain errors of such magnitude.
Thanks,you saved me a trip to our local Greek church and and needless to mention,a bet with my friend who is convienently thinking he won the argument and the upcoming Thanksgiving treat :D .But most importantly, your efforts provided the evidence that I was looking for and enhanced our understanding of this important issue and my buddy would certainly find solace in the fact that he would at least hand in a decent paper.
God Bless
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7358.msg97402#msg97402 date=1227143133]
well think about it.
part of of the current human nature is that a human will die and then go to paradise of hell, then on last day the heaven of hades.
BUT, Elijah has never died. sooo....
actually the real question i want to get an aswer for is, do you remember when the Jews said to our Lord that Elijah and Enoch have to come first, and Christi's answer was like "they might of did already".
Now, where does it says in the OT that Elijah and Enoch have to come first????!!!!!
What do you mean by "Elias has never died, sooo.."? So where is he? Remember according to 2 kings 4:11, he was taken to heaven. Mr/Mrs holybible said,according to his sunday school teacher, Eias is in Paradise, which sounds coherent,but why does the OT say 'to heaven'?
I do not know about Enoch, but here is what the OT says about Elias which the disciples understood John the baptist to mean Elias .John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elias,but he is not Elias.
Malachi 4
5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."
i got it,
thanks
+++
Dear friends,
Elijah and Enoch are not heaven but there is a place where saints like Elijah who has escaped death b/c of their holiness and the will of God. IN the Revelation do u remember the 2 saints that would fight the coming anti-Christ? they are Elijah and Enoch who testify for God.
I don't know the name in English but it would be translated thus from the Ethiopian language " Nation of the living " is the name of the planet(land or country) like spiritual place they are living now. They r actually 5 in number, one being paradise.
It is all true that all have to die before entering the Heaven.
I don't know about your Church but in mine it is believed that St. John the evagelist also is not dead. There are many who are living there who has not tasted death yet.
For those who believe this is not even a slight reason for a surprise.
May God be with us all with His holiest mother, holy angels, saints. Amen!!!