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Moses didn't enter the promised land
Moses wanted to enter the promised land and I believe that he prayed for it. God made him wait for too long, then God rejected Moses request. I know that Moses got angry one time when he hit the rock twice and God told me to hit it only once. Could it be the reason why God didn't let him enter the promised land.
Do you think this story applies to us when we pray for things and we don't get what we prayed for?
Do you think this story applies to us when we pray for things and we don't get what we prayed for?
Comments
I do not think, that prayers unanswered in our ways are related to this story. God answers prayers, but according to his will.
anyone correct me if I'm worng
God bless
we clearly see that Moses almost takes the credit for himself, as if he's the one performing the miracle, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; by that you see that he started thinking ya3ny he's macho man... and doesn't even carry out what the Lord says... but strikes it as if he's the one! so he's pride forbade him from entering the promised land... and not only that but, even though God takes the people out the wilderness they still go against Him and tell Him it would have been better to stay in slavery than this.... almost a slap to the face!
“And the LORD heard the sound of your words, and was angry, and took an oath, saying, ‘Surely not one of these men of this evil generation shall see that good land of which I swore to give to your fathers, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him and his children I am giving the land on which he walked, because he wholly followed the LORD.’ The LORD was also angry with me for your sakes, saying, ‘Even you shall not go in there. Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall go in there. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it...
nakhod el baraka... neshkor Allah!
+++
Dear friends,
All the posts are edifying. God bless you all. I knew only the last one though.
The whole journey represents a christian life. Moses, Israelites, The promised land, Pharoa representing Jesus, christians, Heaven, devil(sin).
How many times have we complained about the length of the Liturgy, the food we eat, the fasting, alms, tithe, our family, our job, etc etc etc. We, specially me r more evil than the Israelites b/c we received much more, have seen our loving and living God. He showed us His True love and honoured us starting from His birth to His death. But after all these infinite things done for us, we still complain. I wish we were complaining being worthy but we are not even worthy of living considering our sins we carry.
We have no words to describe His love and His gifts for us. We need to shut up our mouths, kill our feelings of not being content, burry all our list of " God plz give me this and that too, again that plz " and ask this one Q always "AM I WORTHY EVEN TO LIVE"?
Let us always pray for FORGIVENESS and the rest He Himself shall give us freely without asking Him.
May God be with us always with His holiest mother, holy angels, saints in mercy. Amen!!!
Moses wanted to enter the promised land and I believe that he prayed for it. God made him wait for too long, then God rejected Moses request. I know that Moses got angry one time when he hit the rock twice and God told me to hit it only once. Could it be the reason why God didn't let him enter the promised land.
Do you think this story applies to us when we pray for things and we don't get what we prayed for?
Hi,
Actually we talked about this before. I think we found quotes from the Pope concerning this who explained that it was punishment because he killed someone, he was given this as punishment. God refused and insisted that Moses does not enter the promised land.
Moses actually did enter the promised land ;D any takers? (oh ya, this is a tough riddle ;))
lol,this brings me to Elijah again, if you know what I mean :D ..I will let other try..a cool riddle, it got me thinking..
Actually we talked about this before. I think we found quotes from the Pope concerning this who explained that it was punishment because he killed someone, he was given this as punishment. God refused and insisted that Moses does not enter the promised land.
QT,
I 'd love to see the explanation of the Pope, if you happen to have it. The Bible does explicitly declare the reasons that led to Moses' punishment. At the the time , When Moses killed a human being, he had no knowledge of the living God, therefore, he had not broken any laws that he had been aware of.
"Because you did not trust Me enough to sanctify Me, therefore you shall not lead this nation into the land that I promised them." (Num 20:12)
God punished Moses,because he increasingly failed as a leader ofa nation.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7357.msg97424#msg97424 date=1227210157]
Actually we talked about this before. I think we found quotes from the Pope concerning this who explained that it was punishment because he killed someone, he was given this as punishment. God refused and insisted that Moses does not enter the promised land.
QT,
I 'd love to see the explanation of the Pope, if you happen to have it. The Bible does explicitly declare the reasons that led to Moses' punishment. At the the time , When Moses killed a human being, he had no knowledge of the living God, therefore, he had not broken any laws that he had been aware of.
"Because you did not trust Me enough to sanctify Me, therefore you shall not lead this nation into the land that I promised them." (Num 20:12)
God punished Moses,because he increasingly failed as a leader ofa nation.
No. that's where you are wrong. So wrong.
Joseph, when he told pharoah's wife "How can I commit this sin before the Lord" - who told him adultary was a sin. Josephw as way way before Moses???
The church describes such events as spiritual tradition. That God did speak to His people, yet not everything is written down in the Bible. Things were passed on by word of mouth. In fact, Moses KNEW that killing was wrong, that's why he did it in the secret and hoped that no one would have noticed.
Mike is the one with the link. In fact u can go to the topic called punishment for your sins... its there that we highlight all these issues and I think the Pope's book was called the life of repentance. In it, the Pope clearly states that there is NO escape from earthly punishment. We cannot escape it. Yet, through repentance we can nullify our eternal punishment.
No. that's where you are wrong. So wrong.
Joseph, when he told pharoah's wife "How can I commit this sin before the Lord" - who told him adultary was a sin. Josephw as way way before Moses???
The church describes such events as spiritual tradition. That God did speak to His people, yet not everything is written down in the Bible. Things were passed on by word of mouth. In fact, Moses KNEW that killing was wrong, that's why he did it in the secret and hoped that no one would have noticed.
Mike is the one with the link. In fact u can go to the topic called punishment for your sins... its there that we highlight all these issues and I think the Pope's book was called the life of repentance. In it, the Pope clearly states that there is NO escape from earthly punishment. We cannot escape it. Yet, through repentance we can nullify our eternal punishment.
I see a contrast between Joseph and Moses. Joseph is the son of Jacob and knew the God of his father and grandfathers.Jospeh understood that laying with Potiphar's wife was transgression, because even before the 10 commandments were instituted,people knew that committing adultery was wrong. why do you thing both his grandfathers lied about their wives? When Abraham lied about Sara being his wife ,God tells the king in a dream "Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her
Why would God speak of sin, if the people did not know that taking other man's wife was a sin punishable by death? Again, Isaac did the same thing with his wife and here is the verse from Genesis "Then Abimelech said, "What is this you (meaning Isaac) have done to us? One of the men might well have slept with your wife, and you would have brought guilt upon us." So Abimelech gave orders to all the people: "Anyone who molests this man or his wife shall surely be put to death."
Moses killed a man, but he knew no God.The only wrong thing in his killing was that he killed an Egyptian instead of a Jew ,an illegal act which might have aroused the ire of the Pharoah.So, the idea that Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land on grounds of his past crime seems not logical to me. The reason is that of all the OT prophets, Moses was the closest to God. God Himself singled out Moses as a special prophet since he spoke to him face to face rather than revealing Himself in visions.If God was punishing Moses for murder,would you think He would reveal his glory to a murderer like him and not to other Holy men that lived before and after him? Which reward is greater to a murderer :to see God's glory or to be denied entry to a promised land?
So in what sense am I wrong?
I know that Moses was punished for either not giving Glory to God, or for killing the Egyptian. But I definately know that the Egyptians knew also the 10 commandments. Potiphar's wife KNEW that adultary was wrong. ALthough they weren't jews, they believed that this was wrong. Now, did they believe that this was wrong because of spiritual tradition? Im not sure??
I meant u were mos definately wrong if you thought that the Jewish people didnt know that the killing was wrong before the 10 commandments were officially published during the time of Moses.
Pray for me
+mahraeel+
God Bless
Please pray for my weakness
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=7357.msg97427#msg97427 date=1227214357]
Moses actually did enter the promised land ;D any takers? (oh ya, this is a tough riddle ;))
lol,this brings me to Elijah again, if you know what I mean :D ..I will let other try..a cool riddle, it got me thinking..
I think we understand eachother ;)
And btw, i agree that Moses was a symbol of the law, and therefore in God's plan wouldn't have entered the promised land with the Jewish people anyway. The man was 120 years of age, and he saw the promised land from far, what would have made him happier? Enter the promised land to see some apple trees and drink milk, or finally rest from his life full of worries and trouble to enter the true promised land: heaven!!? Is 40 years travelling through Sinai with these stubborn people who probably caused him high bloodpressure and cholestrol not enough suffering and punishment? lol I honestly think that God had mercy on him by letting him pass away, instead of having to cope even longer years with these people, and this way God's divine plan for salvation was perfectly portrayed.
And yes, Moses eventually did enter the promised land, with Christ and Elija when he was transfigured on the mount Tabor.
I have to admit, this question is not as simple as it sounds. The only thing I am certain of is that Moses was punished. Now, was he punished because he killed a man, or punished because he didn't give the Glory to God for freeing the israelites, I'm not entirely sure.
In any case, I see 2 types of punishments:
* a) Lost in the wilderness for 40 years
* b) Not being able to enter the promised land.
So, if Moses did in fact enter the promised land then that changes everything, but I'm not sure. Does anyone here have the story in Exodus??
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished;
Now, upon hearing this fact Moses Prayed immediately:
Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 "O Lord, if I have found favor in your eyes," he said, "then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance."
Don't you think, after his prayer, God the merciful had forgiven Moses whatever sins he had committed in the past? Don't you also think,that when Moses stood on the Holy ground on Mt Sinai,that all his sins had been wiped out and cleansed? If that were no so,How could you be a murderer and see the face of God or why would God ask Moses to come alone to the top of the mountain and then he returned back with God's grace and shiny face? This should be answered.
But, why was Moses denied entry to the promised land? The Bible answers that. In Numbers 20,7-11,it says
The LORD said to Moses, 8 "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."
9 So Moses took the staff from the LORD's presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, "Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?" 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.
Why did Moses hit the rock? Also, God never told Moses how many times to hit the rock. Then, "But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them."
Moreover ,in Numbers 20,23-24, we read :
"At Mount Hor, near the border of Edom, the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Aaron will be gathered to his people. He will not enter the land I give the Israelites, because both of you rebelled against my command at the waters of Meribah". The Egyptians had no idea about the 10 commandments. How could they? However, they knew that adultery or murder was wrong, because they adopted the code of Hammurabi, an ancient Babylonian written code of laws that was the constitution of the day( the jews knew that too).Surprisingly, some of its laws were similar to some parts of Mosaic laws.That is all there to it.
Come to think of the issue we are discussing, I can not for a single moment think that the calibre of His Holiness Pope Shenouda would say that Moses was denied entry into the promised land due to his killing an Egyptian man.Something is definately not right here!I am sure you agree with me that unless we are certain that His Holiness did infact say so,we should not attribute any quotes to him, specially when it makes no sense. I do not find the thread where this issue was debated nor do I have access to the book of His holiness. I shall be grateful if you get me a link or something.It is important to see his exact words and the context in which he said them.
Thanks
And if He forgives before, then that means He still punishes after forgiving?
God Bless
Please pray for me
Basically, for every sin there are 2 types of punishment:
* Eternal
* Earthly
For the "Eternal" punishment - this can be nullified through repentance and confession.
For the earthly, this is non negotiable. You get punished on earth.
This is something I rememeber word for word from H.H's book on repentance. H.H gave some pretty good examples: From even the time of Adam, He said to him: as a result of your disobedience, you will toil the earth for food.. and He also punished Eve.
H.H said clearly that there is no escape from the earthly punishment. The eternal punishment is avoidable through repentance and confession.
God forgives someone when he repents right???
But that means he still punishes someone even after that person repented and confessed and thus after He had forgiven him...
Because many people say: when God forgives, He forgets
but I heard in a sermon once, that that's not true, any facts on that??
God Bless
Please pray for me
Thanks QT, but there's still something I'm not sure about
God forgives someone when he repents right???
But that means he still punishes someone even after that person repented and confessed and thus after He had forgiven him...
Because many people say: when God forgives, He forgets
but I heard in a sermon once, that that's not true, any facts on that??
God Bless
Please pray for me
When God forgives, He forgets? Where does it say that in the Bible? All I remember reading was when God forgives He separates your sin as the East is separated from the West. He doesn't hold it against you. You are not stigmatised for it in His eyes.
I think this is eternally.
When we repent and confess, God doesn't remind us of our sins when we are before Him.
However, we cannot escape earthly punishment.
Now, I was curious about this issue once upon a time, and hence I created a thread. But as you can see I am prepared to say what I am sure of and what I am not sure of. I am sure (according to H..H Pope Shenouda) that earthly punishments are ALWAYS enforced. Heavenly punishments are cancelled by repentance and confession.
The punishment after repentance is actually part of the repentance. God has two Characters which cannot be separated. Love and Justice. God is both Love and Just.
H..H Pope Shenouda has described this looking at the Crucification.
God is Love thus came to save us and wants to forgive us but He is also Just, so then Jesus has to go through all that taking our flesh and the pain.
But as far as I know the earthly punishment is first of all not to be paid inch for an inch. It is more like a learning process so that you may not take God's love for granted and repeat your sin. Then also, compared to the eternal punishment in hell if not for God's grace of repentance, it is like a true reflection of God's love.
Even if God does not punish us, the inner guilty feeling in our heart combined with God's goodness will make us to punish ourselves.
May God be with us always, with His holiest mother, holy angels, saints. Amen!!!
+++
The punishment after repentance is actually part of the repentance. God has two Characters which cannot be separated. Love and Justice. God is both Love and Just.
H..H Pope Shenouda has described this looking at the Crucification.
God is Love thus came to save us and wants to forgive us but He is also Just, so then Jesus has to go through all that taking our flesh and the pain.
But as far as I know the earthly punishment is first of all not to be paid inch for an inch. It is more like a learning process so that you may not take God's love for granted and repeat your sin. Then also, compared to the eternal punishment in hell if not for God's grace of repentance, it is like a true reflection of God's love.
Even if God does not punish us, the inner guilty feeling in our heart combined with God's goodness will make us to punish ourselves.
May God be with us always, with His holiest mother, holy angels, saints. Amen!!!
Hi BinC,
I in fact heard the same. THat punishment even was for our edification. But actually, I had the impression that God allows the injust to get away with murder in that case - how he punishes them is remarkable - he doesnt. He will just allow them to commit murder, if they repent, they are forgiven.
Is that right?
Hello QT_PA_2T,
God does not allow anyone to commit a sin. the word Allowing looks like He is collaborating or He is giving them persmission which is totally wrong.
God gave us total free will and that free will should include even to go against God's will if the free will to be full. But God has not left us without the knowledge of sin beginning from Adam. In our heart all the laws of God are inscribed. That is why Abel's brother, Kain(amharic), fled from God's presence.
Inspite of all these evil things we do against God, some day we feel remorse and guilty of all these deeds. We cry humbly towards God for mercy. God has always loved us except our evil deeds. Now we are saying we hate these evil deeds and we want to return to our God. God has the measure of our heart feeling sorry. Infact the love of God is the first thing that breaks our heart b/c who ever we kill or do wrong it goes directly towards the owner of the person. God owns everything, specially human being created in His image.
That is why whatever we do evil or good is considered to be done on the image of God. The very image of God is no one but Jesus.
Jesus said " she loved much so much will be forgiven of her. " The strength of our love of God will make our repentance perfect.
So, this person is not trying to escape from the punishment. Infact he wishes he die in the place of all the ppl he killed if that could raise them up. The repentant is not actually asking God to minimize the punishment. Any punishment is not strong enough to be greater than the guilty feeling you carry. You will actually hate yourself to the extent that you wish die or suffer for all the evil things you commit. That is why we look most of them to flee from this world and be a monk. So that to drink and eat, bread and water of severe penance in the desert which they think is what they deserve. Just like the son in the gospel of Luke who said to his father, " I am not worthy anymore to be called a son but one of your servant." Then he carries burden more than the required. What is allowed to a lay person will deny himself from taking.
As a real sinner and repentant, you will always say I DON'T DESERVE IT. The happiness, the food, clothes, sleep, pleasure of any kind. Even if God punishes you after the forgiveness you will not complain but wonder how kind God is. Because in the punishment after forgiveness God stands beside you to comfort you. It is not like an empty pain without meaning when you are living in sin. That punishment will make you so humble so that it will be a ladder towards saintly life. That is why we see many lives of saints who turn their life from the worst sinner to a holy person. Look at St. Moses the black and
St. Mary the Eygptian.
" I came for sinners who needs repentance not for the righteous..."
" If one is gone astray out of the ninety nine sheep..."
We don't even love ourselves let alone others as much as God love us. Love covers many sins.
May God be with us with His holiest mother, holy angels, saints in mercy and love. Amen!!!
From Pope shenoud's book : http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/Repentan/index.html
Page 133:
Moses sinned when he struck the rock twice saying to the
stubborn, rebellious people: "Hear now, you rebels! Must we
bring water for you out of this rock?" the result was that God
ordered him not to enter the promised land.Num 20:7-12).
What is this Lord that you do? Do you forget this
long acquaintance for the sake of one sin which happened
during difficult circumstances?
God insists however that Moses does not enter the land. What
is this that you say O Lord? As the saying goes (the cook of the
poison, tastes it). You know how I laboured for the sake of
these people for tens of years and endured their stubbornness
with patience and I led them in the wilderness whilst they were
rebellious and unyielding. I am Moses Your servant, Your
beloved friend to whom you spoke face to face. All of this was
disregarded for the Lord insisted on punishing him. Moses
entreated the Lord: I have sinned, O Lord pardon, O Lord
forgive, O Lord forget this sin: "I pray, let me cross over and
see the good land". God is consistent in His principle: `I
forgive in My kingdom'. As for here, the punishment will be
enforced, even on Moses. When the begging of Moses the
prophet increased, God was angered and said to him:
"Enough of that! Speak no more to Me of this matter"
(Deut 3:26). Finally after many requests, beseechings and
implorations, He permitted him to see the land from afar,
from the mountain, but not to enter into it. God in His
justice did not show gratitude to His beloved Moses inspite
of his favour with God. And you my brother, what is your
favour? Is your position with God higher than that of
Moses?
So why the two? I have my own view ,but would like to hear what you think.