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E Ghennesees

ophadeceophadece
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
[coptic]Namenra] tyrou>
Aicwtem epihumnoc (y par;enoc) ca`thy qen ]metOueinin - my ouon `ntoten emi `f;wn pihumnoc (y gennycic) qen ]metOueinin on?[/coptic]
I listened to the hymn "[coptic]y par;enoc[/coptic]" before in Greek - does anyone of you know where is the hymn "[coptic]y gennycic[/coptic]" in Greek as well?
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]

Comments

  • ophadeceophadece
    [coptic]]ouem`h;yi
    aijere hiten `nrem`nOueinin `nratwmi `nte taiek`klycia[/coptic]
    I am sorry
    I meant through a Greek church member
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • andrew_taniosandrew_tanios
    Hi Ophadece,

    I hope this is what you're looking for...

    http://www.goarch.org/multimedia/audio/nativityofchrist/apolytikion-gr

    Cheers,
    Andrew
  • ophadeceophadece
    [coptic]Andro:anioc>
    ]sep`hmot `ntotk emasw - aresan ouon niben qen nenratwmi cwtem epaihumnoc `ntetenemi pinis] `mvwrj oute poury] `njinhwc nem piry] `nte `pcaq Iprahym[/coptic]
    Thank you very much - if every one in our members listen to that hymn you will notice a big difference between their way of singing and the way of cantor Ibrahim
    [coptic]]meu`i je `pcaq Iprahym `mpefse `ntefsib] paihumnoc hina `ntefaif kata (y par;enoc)[/coptic]
    I think that cantor Ibrahim shouldn't have changed that hymn to make it like "[coptic]y par;enoc[/coptic]"
    [coptic]As ne netenmoust?[/coptic]
    What are your opinions?
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=7518.msg99015#msg99015 date=1231163629]
    [coptic]Andro:anioc>
    ]sep`hmot `ntotk emasw - aresan ouon niben qen nenratwmi cwtem epaihumnoc `ntetenemi pinis] `mvwrj oute poury] `njinhwc nem piry] `nte `pcaq Iprahym[/coptic]
    Thank you very much - if every one in our members listen to that hymn you will notice a big difference between their way of singing and the way of cantor Ibrahim
    [coptic]]meu`i je `pcaq Iprahym `mpefse `ntefsib] paihumnoc hina `ntefaif kata (y par;enoc)[/coptic]
    I think that cantor Ibrahim shouldn't have changed that hymn to make it like "[coptic]y par;enoc[/coptic]"
    [coptic]As ne netenmoust?[/coptic]
    What are your opinions?
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]


    well this is my opinion; for all the Greek parts we have in our Church. Each have their own Coptic way that was constructed on it when they were brought to the Church. The hymns are not to be said in their Greek way; consider that the text was taken from Greek for honorary reasons was the tune were to be copticized. Now we have found MANY of the parts in their coptic tune, which just makes us think that the rest of the parts, their tune is done, hopfully recorded somewhere and we should be finding it if we try harder to search.
    Now about what Ibrahim Ayad did, to me, just from what i have seen done with the other Greek parts, i would agree with him in doing this, rather then just take the tune of the Greek church. Atleast we can say 'we are using this tune untill the original appears.' AGAIN, this is only my thought towards this comparing what happen before with the other Greek parts that have no famous tune.
  • ophadeceophadece
    [coptic]Myna>
    Pekmoust nanef pe. Alla `n]]ma] an nem pimounk `nte nihumnoc @ e;byt gar (y gennecyc) oi `m`vry] (tou dipnou) nem nikehumnoc `mmetOueinyn au[i qen pitap `nqae e;be pimeterouai `nte picnau `nek`klycia `mmon `m`vry] (`<rictoc anecty) nem nikehwc naner'alin `noumys `ngene`a[/coptic]
    Your point is good. But I don't agree with making up of the hymns: for me "[coptic]y gennecyc[/coptic]" is like "[coptic]tou dipnou[/coptic]" and the other Greek hymns taken in the last century for uniting both the churches not like "[coptic]`<rictoc anecty[/coptic]" and the other hymns we are used to singing for many generations
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    I agree with mina, however if you do notice, hymns such as Tonsina are actually close to how the greeks say it. This also opens up a discussion on the Liturgy of St. Cyril, was Fr. Matthias right to construct the liturgy parts that were lost based on the tunes of St. gregory's liturgy? I believe when we get stuck up on things like was this ok to say in this tune or things like that you lose sight of the goal of the hymn. Did it aid you in raising your heart to God? if the answer is yes then whats the problem exactly? Don't let the means get in the way of the ends. I personally think it was fine for Ibrahim Ayad to do that. Its one hymn and the words worked out so that it fit the tune of E parthenos, who's to say thats not how it was said? I'm sure he does much research and doesn't do things on a whim. So when people like Ibrahim or Fr matthais do what they did, we should not criticize them so critically when we ourselves can't do any better then them. This is just my opinion.

    God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
  • ophadeceophadece
    [coptic]Jydiakwn pamenrit>
    ]sep`hmot `ntotk e;be ak] nyi `nou;ebio :)[/coptic]
    Thank you for you gave me humbleness
    [coptic]`N;ok pe oumyi qen oujwk alla ]meu`i je ]ouws `n`ka] `n`tsebiw pijinhwc qen oumetatka][/coptic]
    You are completely right but I think I want to understand instead of singing without understanding
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    I understand that, but the tune only helps in understanding it does not cause understanding.
  • ophadeceophadece
    [coptic]Mpajere pimetka] `nte nicaji `mmon nihwc - ]nah] je nihwc swpi e;be pilogicmoc e;nanef[/coptic]
    I didn't mean understanding of the words rather the tunes - I believe that the tunes are there for a good reason
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    It's hard to benefit from a hymn when it cannot be chanted at all because the tune is lost.
    I prefer to have a "made up" or a known "metrakkeb" tune and benefit from the lyrics (and to some extent from the tune as well), than not having a hymn at all.
    I don't believe the tune always reflects what the words of the hymn say, because we have so many tunes that are used for more than one hymn (compare the lyrics of ouran to pi epnevma, same music, totally different occasion, feast and meaning), so in my opinion this is not an issue here.
  • ophadeceophadece
    [coptic]Ce hwc erof - ]sep`hmot `ntotk @ ]nou pahyt ;wt qa ]melety nem pametjemhyou[/coptic]
    Ok Hos Erof - thank you : now I am convinced about the meditation and my benefit
    [coptic]alla `n]]ma] an nem pailogicmoc qen pimounk `nhanhwc e;be ]litourgia `nte apa Kurilloc[/coptic]
    But I don't agree with that logic in making up some tunes for the liturgy of St. Cyril
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    Ophadece these tunes aren't made up at all, if you listen its tarkeeb from the liturgy of st. gregory, plus, its mostly litanies so its safe to say that thats how those litanies where prayed. Plus the famous parts of the liturgy that are known are said correctly.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=7518.msg99019#msg99019 date=1231173671]
    [coptic]Myna>
    Pekmoust nanef pe. Alla `n]]ma] an nem pimounk `nte nihumnoc @ e;byt gar (y gennecyc) oi `m`vry] (tou dipnou) nem nikehumnoc `mmetOueinyn au[i qen pitap `nqae e;be pimeterouai `nte picnau `nek`klycia `mmon `m`vry] (`<rictoc anecty) nem nikehwc naner'alin `noumys `ngene`a[/coptic]
    Your point is good. But I don't agree with making up of the hymns: for me "[coptic]y gennecyc[/coptic]" is like "[coptic]tou dipnou[/coptic]" and the other Greek hymns taken in the last century for uniting both the churches not like "[coptic]`<rictoc anecty[/coptic]" and the other hymns we are used to singing for many generations
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]


    well yes. they are all in the same category. but consider the rest that we HAVE FOUND COPTIC TUNES FOR....why would you do what wasn't intended, which is to keep the Greek tune.

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=7518.msg99021#msg99021 date=1231174176]
    [coptic]Jydiakwn pamenrit>
    ]sep`hmot `ntotk e;be ak] nyi `nou;ebio :)[/coptic]
    Thank you for you gave me humbleness
    [coptic]`N;ok pe oumyi qen oujwk alla ]meu`i je ]ouws `n`ka] `n`tsebiw pijinhwc qen oumetatka][/coptic]
    You are completely right but I think I want to understand instead of singing without understanding
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]


    i don't think this is a problem of understanding and singing. either ways, the hymn--the text-- is translated, we know what it means. we can't sing it best because we don't have the tune it was intended to be on. BUT, we can get the best out of it. that's when it become very controversial.

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=7518.msg99030#msg99030 date=1231180334]
    [coptic]Ce hwc erof - ]sep`hmot `ntotk @ ]nou pahyt ;wt qa ]melety nem pametjemhyou[/coptic]
    Ok Hos Erof - thank you : now I am convinced about the meditation and my benefit
    [coptic]alla `n]]ma] an nem pailogicmoc qen pimounk `nhanhwc e;be ]litourgia `nte apa Kurilloc[/coptic]
    But I don't agree with that logic in making up some tunes for the liturgy of St. Cyril
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]

    again, as much as this is controversial until this day everywhere, Abouna Mettias and the ppl who helped him record the liturgy have a specific logic they followed. we just have to understand it. i am not saying i fully agree with this action, but i just give ppl chances to explain themselves as much as i would want others to give me the chance to explain my point of views of arguments. 
  • ophadeceophadece
    [coptic]Namenra] tyrou>
    aiounof ecomc epenka] `mpairy] - ]sep`hmot `ntoten e;be aretenka] nemyi. [/coptic]
    I was very happy to see our debate like that - thank you for debating with me.
    [coptic]]`sjimi `nourasi qen `pjinhwc `nouon `nnihumnoc qen `y,oc `hli sa y,oc gar `nAraboc> alla pai `nnefaif `nkanwnyc[/coptic]
    I can find pleasure in singing any of the hymns in any tune even an Arabic tune, but that will not make it legitimate
    [coptic]nailogicmoc eta Jydiakwn caji erwou> hanatkanwnyc ne ouoh `n]]ma] an nemwou qen oujwk> alla ]meu`i je `mmontan `noukeouw je ]nasopou[/coptic]
    Those reasons that Jydeacon talked about, are arbitrary and I don't agree with them completely, but I think that we don't have another solution so I will accept them
    [coptic]Myna - toncina nem touli;ou nem tyn anactacin ]meu`i oueh `nca nairy] `mmetOueinin @ e;be ou gar pivwrj qen Y gennecyc?[/coptic]
    Mina - [coptic]toncina[/coptic] and [coptic]touli;ou [/coptic]and [coptic]tyn anactacin [/coptic]I think follow their Greek likes; why then the difference in [coptic]Y gennecyc[/coptic]?
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=7518.msg99034#msg99034 date=1231192427]
    [coptic]Myna - toncina nem touli;ou nem tyn anactacin ]meu`i oueh `nca nairy] `mmetOueinin @ e;be ou gar pivwrj qen Y gennecyc?[/coptic]
    Mina - [coptic]toncina[/coptic] and [coptic]touli;ou [/coptic]and [coptic]tyn anactacin [/coptic]I think follow their Greek likes; why then the difference in [coptic]Y gennecyc[/coptic]?
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]


    well they don't follow as much.....atleast it doesn't sound that way to me. i have to say that they are more copticized already then what they sound in Greek. also there you go only including the famous ones, leaving out the more famous ad closest to our discussion, [coptic]`Ypar;enoc[/coptic]. i have heard the coptic version of: [coptic]Entygennyci tyn> `Anizw to `ctoma> Axion ectinwc `aly;wc> Touc couc umnologouc.[/coptic]..don't ask me where right now, they'll be online soon for everyone. but all have already heard entigennis by Wagdi Bishara and how different it was. I have heard [coptic]Axion ectinwc `aly;wc[/coptic] in Greek with a heavnly voice. i liked it, but it was different from the coptic source i have also heard.
  • ophadeceophadece
    [coptic]Myna,
    naimeu`i `nsyou `mmetasiri qa paimoust @ ]]ma] nem `njin] `nrem`n<ymi `noury] enihwc `mmetOueinin> alla `cse `ntectagryout ejen oury] `n]jiner'alin `nnaihwc `mmetOueinin a[ne oumounk[/coptic]
    I have been thinking long and hard about that topic; I agree with giving a Coptic style to the Greek tunes, but it should be based upon the style of singing those Greek tunes without making up
    [coptic]Pejak nyi je nikehumnoc tyrou euoi `nnairy] nai `nte rem`nOueinin - pai ounanef pe @ alla ]erat;wt `nhyt nem pimounk `nhwc `natkanwnyc `mma`nsorp[/coptic]
    You told me all the other hymns are like the Greek ones - that is good; but I disagree with making up an arbitrary tune in the first place
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=7518.msg99072#msg99072 date=1231353564]
    [coptic]Myna,
    naimeu`i `nsyou `mmetasiri qa paimoust @ ]]ma] nem `njin] `nrem`n<ymi `noury] enihwc `mmetOueinin> alla `cse `ntectagryout ejen oury] `n]jiner'alin `nnaihwc `mmetOueinin a[ne oumounk[/coptic]
    I have been thinking long and hard about that topic; I agree with giving a Coptic style to the Greek tunes, but it should be based upon the style of singing those Greek tunes without making up



    this is what i meant by: "we can't sing it best because we don't have the tune it was intended to be on" as i said before.
    i don't think the parts were intended to be brought to our Church WITH their Greek tune. the idea was a small reason to show unity; take their text mix with our tunes. if you take their text and tune, or even closes it, then you just "taken somthing from them and bring it to our Church"....which i don't mind if approved by our Church bishops, but i just don't think it's that way.
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