Hi,
I just wanted to know the official CoC view on Father Christmas, or Mr. Santa Claus. Did he really exist?
Was there really a saint in our Church that honestly dressed up in a red skirt and had raindeers to drive him around? I definately think the image is a charitable one, but where is this story in the Synaxar?
I don't mean to be a kill-joy nor am I anti-Santa. I remember I sent him many letters as a child, and I did get my Christmas wishes 90% of the time - but it was only to discover that it was my parents who were buying me the presents.
Surely this is not good for the faith of children is it?
Regardless - who is he? Was he a Coptic or Catholic saint or neither? Finally, if the answer is neither - why do we as christians talk about a saint that didnt exist?
Comments
This is his story: http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/nicholas2.html
According to the following link, the character behind the story of Santa Claus is Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Mora.
This is his story: http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/nicholas2.html
Thanks Tiagia Malatini,
I knew it had something to do with Saint Nicolas, but what concerns me is the raindeer. Children are taught to believe that he went around on a slate with raindeers that could fly.
Its obviously good to know that he was an Orthodox saint, but where does it say in that story that he dressed up in bright red also?
http://www.copticchurch.net/synaxarium/4_10.html#2
In some European countries such as Holland the feast of St Nicholas is important and is kept on 6th December, which is the same as 10th Khiak with the difference in calendar taken account of.
St Nicholas was a kind saint who provided gifts for poor children to save them from slavery and so the connection of St Nicholas with gift giving became quite obvious in European cultures. In the past, even 40 or 50 years ago, people did not give the quantities of gifts which seem expected now. And indeed I did not get such large amounts when I was a child. In Europe small gifts would be left in shoes which were put out for the purpose on 6th December. The European tradition clearly relates back to St Nicholas in some sense because he is dressed as a bishop, as was St Nicholas.
From about the 17th century Christmas was personified in England as an elderly gentleman encouraging festivity, but the idea that he brought gifts or had anything to do with children was not present. He was just Father Christmas as we might personify Father Winter or Mistress Spring or something like that.
The modern Santa is really a combination of these traditions with American culture, especially the poem from the 1820's 'The Night before Christmas', and various advertising campaigns which firmly set the idea that he wore red and white, such as the Coca-Cola campaign from the 1930's. It is the St Nicholas for big business!
So in many European countries there is a more direct connection between Santa Klaus and St Nicholas, not least since the celebration is on December 6th. But in the US and the UK this has been very much diluted into a mythic figure who gives gifts. I have tried a little to develop a family tradition on 6th December, but it is hard.
The reindeer come from the fact that the moderm traditions are a mixture of many different ones, including Scandinavian, where of course reindeer are native. St Nicholas never saw a reindeer in his life!
It would be good for the Church to more explicitly recognise and promote the connection between Santa Klaus and St Nicholas of Myra.
In Christ
Peter
But it worries me that kids seem to think that he exists... you know - that he is still alive (physically) and goes around on reindeers wearing red and white costumes.
When they discover that this is not true - what could be the damage to their faith?
Its a huge shame that Saint Nicholas' story has been changed to market goods for Christmas. This is changing a story to sell something to children.
Although St. Nicholas did exist and he did give presents to kids - the baba noel that the media has created is someone that still comes alive during Christmas and gives out presents.
I was brought up to believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy, and also came to understand that these were both mythic figures. I never placed Christ in the same category, nor can I remember any great crisis when it dawned on me that he was not a real person.
That is not an absolute response, I can imagine that some others do have problems, but for me I was very clear about the reality of Christ and the objective truth of the Bible even as a small child and this was not shaken when I realised that Father Christmas was not true in the same way.
Indeed I wonder if this sort of myth is not universal among all peoples - not necessarily Father Christmas but other similar ideas which are taught to children and grown out of?
It is the same as choosing the answer to the question 'where do babies come from?'. I would imagine that it is only in very recent times that parents have been biologically truthful to children.
My own children all believed that Father Christmas existed in a physical sense, and I have always been a very committed Christian from a very committed Christian family. Perhaps I would do things a little differently now I am Orthodox in that Orthodoxy has a much richer cultural texture than Evangelicalism - there are more interesting and exciting stories. But I am not sure, since the tradition of Santa Klaus is so prevalent in Europe associated with the real St Nicholas. Maybe it is more important to try and eliminate some of the commercialism, which I think is much more dangerous to a young soul than the person of Father Christmas.
In Christ
Peter
Thanks Pete,
But it worries me that kids seem to think that he exists... you know - that he is still alive (physically) and goes around on reindeers wearing red and white costumes.
When they discover that this is not true - what could be the damage to their faith?
Its a huge shame that Saint Nicholas' story has been changed to market goods for Christmas. This is changing a story to sell something to children.
Although St. Nicholas did exist and he did give presents to kids - the baba noel that the media has created is someone that still comes alive during Christmas and gives out presents.
I agree and I think that we should start teaching the children what Christmas really is.. this means we should should stop putting up a Christmas tree, no more "from: santa clause" on gifts and no christmas movies during Kiahk. This may seem insane, but en sha allah IF I ever get kids I wont even mention Santa to them.. if they learn it from school or TV then fine, but it shouldn't be encouraged at home!
Let's start now..(well not literally now b/c Kiahk is over) but we are the new generation so let's teach the younger ones the true meaning of Nativity and erase commercial Christmas from their mind. This is my dream.. and if we all do this IT WILL HAPPEN!
When I was small I was constrained to leave a thank you plate of biscuits and a drink for Santa for all the pleasure he gave to me every Christmas. When I became Orthodox and realised where Santa came from I thought the feelings he inspired in me as a child were wholesome and close to the truth.
Maybe we could reinvigorate the cult of St Nicholas by connecting it to giving and receiving gifts but without the fairy tale elements. Although when you have kids these fairy tale elements need not be harmful.
In Christ
I don't think I would want to complete remove all of this cultural content from my children's experience of Christmas, but I would like to try this year to make much more of St Nicholas.
In Christ
Peter Theodore Farrington
In some European countries such as Holland the feast of St Nicholas is important and is kept on 6th December, which is the same as 10th Khiak with the difference in calendar taken account of.
5 december ;)
And yes, St Nicholas (or Sinterklaas as we call him here) even comes to our church, and abouna interviews him during the sermon for the Sunday School liturgy lol
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7555.msg99300#msg99300 date=1231949390]
In some European countries such as Holland the feast of St Nicholas is important and is kept on 6th December, which is the same as 10th Khiak with the difference in calendar taken account of.
5 december ;)
And yes, St Nicholas (or Sinterklaas as we call him here) even comes to our church, and abouna interviews him during the sermon for the Sunday School liturgy lol
In Christ
"All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful.." (1 Cor. 10:23)
I see that it's not harmful to the kids, but there really is no point. I'm not against the idea of St. Nicholas, but why are we treating him different than any other saint in the church? It seems like he is HUGE during the christmas time, but not remembered any other day of the year. Why can't we do the same to St. George? St. Mark? During Christmas time (kiahk) we should really be focused on Saint Mary. St Nicholas is great too... but I think his story got tweaked and people are forgetting (or ignoring) the purpose. Why do so many children know about santa but not St. Nicholas? This isn't right.
So don't get me wrong, I'm all for the whole fairy tale fantasy thing too.. but when it becomes too much, then I think it should stop. It's better to prevent it to begin with. Like I said before, it shouldn't be encouraged at home.
And I wonder if he comes on the evening of the 5th which would be the eve of the 6th?
Peter
Really? Didnt know that, but we don't have a northern neighbour country :P
1. the Bible tells us about God.
2. there is no santa claus in the Bible (yes, i was already reading a children's version!) so he is not from God.
3. santa claus is good so he is not from the devil
4. he can't be a mere human coz he flies through the air.
5. he is not from God, he is not from the devil, he is not human so he doesn't exist!
well, these days i try to understand more complicated matters, but this is how i started out!
of course u should not tell your children he exists.
i was really confused about it for 2 years and it did make me doubt what my parents told me. i was afraid to ask anyone about it, i didn't want them to doubt my faith in God.
tell them its a nice story based on a lovely bishop who gave good gifts and the gifts remind us of the gift of Jesus.
after my parents 'confessed' (uk, protestants) we still had the presents and decorations and nice bedtime stories, so there was nothing lost.
the reindeers come from somewhere in north europe (but not north of hos erof!) and the red was added in usa and popularised by the coca cola company. Christmas cards were 1st sent in the uk in 1850s
most of my orthodox friends tell their children the truth, among the catholics and protestants its more than half and among the atheists less than half tell the truth about santa. he's useful to them so they can 'forget' its about Jesus.
i think we should take up the customs of the country where we live (a long as they are not harmful) and this way, take the opportunity to meet with people and show them the truth of the birth, death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
don't hide away, saying 'it's all non-apostolic tradition', but don't compromise on the truth either.
may God guide us into all truth.
now with all honesty... do you want your kids to be the anti-social ones who will go to school and spoil the fact that Santa is not real?! let the children live their lives... sometimes we just worry too much about the rules, and if Santa flies or not... c'mon people, are you serious?! its the same as if someone takes the name of anba Abram as a charity for an organization... whats the difference?! if a person is helped by that charity, he/she will thank anba Abram, who is a follower of the Christ! so if a child receives a present that says from Santa... he/she will thank Santa, who you can tell them is saint Nicolas and tell them his story... then they will thank Santa aka Saint Nicholas aka a follower of the Christ, who had many good deeds to praise the name of God!
a little fact that I'd like to throw out there... all this fighting against Santa, started from about the 16th century... by the protestant church... and we all know protestants and saints!!!
akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
Saint Nicholas, yet a Great man who I admire dearly, is not recognized in the Coptic church!!!
now with all honesty... do you want your kids to be the anti-social ones who will go to school and spoil the fact that Santa is not real?! let the children live their lives... sometimes we just worry too much about the rules, and if Santa flies or not.
You bring up a good point I didn't consider before.. the other kids in school. I agree (to a point), but still Santa shouldn't be encouraged in a Coptic home. Like you said.. he's not recognized in the Coptic Church.. so why support him at home to the little kids? Just because the rest of the kids out there are doing one thing doesn't mean our kids (if we ever have kids :P ) should be doing the same thing. I dont think it will cause too much problems in schools if we tell OUR children that Christmas is not based on Santa, and that he is actually just a fairy tale (notice I said Santa and not St. Nicholas.. which means I'm also talking about the reindeers, chimney, elfs..etc.) A lot of children out there already know (from parents that refuse to tell them... whether for a religious reason or not).. but being in a Coptic house, we should stress Kiahk, St. Mary and baby Jesus... not Santa. BUT, if you are going to teach them Santa then please don't forget the other side of the story too,(I'm saying this because when I was child.. even though i was in a Coptic house.. Santa was encouraged more than Kiahk.. and I don't want this to happen again to the newer generation).
Please don't be upset with me.
Peace,
Tεκcoνι μέσα Πεχριcτoc
akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!