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Evidence for female leadership in Church
I am going to present some evidence that shows females as leaders in the Early Church. It was presented to me by a professor of mine. To those who endure through this long post, I thank you. I think this is an important issue. The implications are that women were leaders of the early church so there is no reason why they shouldn't be now.
1) Galations 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
2) 1 Corinthians 11:10 "For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels."
3) Acts 2:17-18 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."
---The three passages above are normative and lead to behavior documented in the descriptive texts below:
1. Romans 16:1-2 "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me." Phoebe as a 'minister' and as patron]
2. Romans 16:6-7 "Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you. Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."
[Junia as an outstanding apostle]
3. Philippians 4:1-3 "1 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm in the Lord in this way, dear friends! I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life."
[Euodia and Syntuche as 'co-workers']
4. Acts 18:1-3 "After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them." [[Priscilla and Aquila as 'co-workers' and house-church leaders]
5. Acts 18: 24-26 "Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor[a] and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately."
[Priscilla and Aquila as 'co-workers' and house-church leaders]
6. 1 Corinthians 11:5 "But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved." [Female prophets]
7. Acts 21:9 "He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." [Female prophets]
8. 1 Corinthians 7:13-16 "And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?" [Christian wife as spiritual leader in a mixed marriage]
9. Colossians 4:15 "Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house."
[Nympha as house-church leader]
---1 Corinthians 14:33-35 and 1 Timothy 2:8-15 are taken to be corrective texts that address specific time-limited pastoral problems; had they been normative instructions, no women leaders would have been mentioned in the writings of the NT.
St. John Chrysostom- "Homilies on Romans 31" on Romans 16:6-7
"Think how great the devotion of this woman Junia must have been , that she should be worthy to be called an apostle!"
Theoderet - "Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans" on Romans 16:7
"These people were companions of Paul in his sufferings and even shared imprisonment with him. Hence he says that they are men and women of note, not among the pupils but among the teachers, and not among the ordinary teachers but among the apostles!"
Origen - "Commentary of the Epistle to the Romans" on Romans 16:1-12
"This passage teaches that there were women ordained in the church's ministry by the apostle's authority."
---I would appreciate your thoughts. What is the church's response? Why aren't women allowed to be leaders in the church? Please use evidence from the first century. I am trying to prepare a counter-argument to my professor who believes that males just want to dominate and Jesus and Paul were working to reform the gender roles and power in society and there is no reason a woman could not be a priest. They were, in the first century, he would say.
1) Galations 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
2) 1 Corinthians 11:10 "For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels."
3) Acts 2:17-18 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."
---The three passages above are normative and lead to behavior documented in the descriptive texts below:
1. Romans 16:1-2 "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me." Phoebe as a 'minister' and as patron]
2. Romans 16:6-7 "Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you. Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."
[Junia as an outstanding apostle]
3. Philippians 4:1-3 "1 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm in the Lord in this way, dear friends! I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life."
[Euodia and Syntuche as 'co-workers']
4. Acts 18:1-3 "After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them." [[Priscilla and Aquila as 'co-workers' and house-church leaders]
5. Acts 18: 24-26 "Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor[a] and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately."
[Priscilla and Aquila as 'co-workers' and house-church leaders]
6. 1 Corinthians 11:5 "But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved." [Female prophets]
7. Acts 21:9 "He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." [Female prophets]
8. 1 Corinthians 7:13-16 "And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?" [Christian wife as spiritual leader in a mixed marriage]
9. Colossians 4:15 "Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house."
[Nympha as house-church leader]
---1 Corinthians 14:33-35 and 1 Timothy 2:8-15 are taken to be corrective texts that address specific time-limited pastoral problems; had they been normative instructions, no women leaders would have been mentioned in the writings of the NT.
St. John Chrysostom- "Homilies on Romans 31" on Romans 16:6-7
"Think how great the devotion of this woman Junia must have been , that she should be worthy to be called an apostle!"
Theoderet - "Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans" on Romans 16:7
"These people were companions of Paul in his sufferings and even shared imprisonment with him. Hence he says that they are men and women of note, not among the pupils but among the teachers, and not among the ordinary teachers but among the apostles!"
Origen - "Commentary of the Epistle to the Romans" on Romans 16:1-12
"This passage teaches that there were women ordained in the church's ministry by the apostle's authority."
---I would appreciate your thoughts. What is the church's response? Why aren't women allowed to be leaders in the church? Please use evidence from the first century. I am trying to prepare a counter-argument to my professor who believes that males just want to dominate and Jesus and Paul were working to reform the gender roles and power in society and there is no reason a woman could not be a priest. They were, in the first century, he would say.
Comments
A leadership position (or a teaching, a service a ministry or even apostleship/discipleship of some kind) is not forbidden in the Church....but a position on the priesthood is. There is a very important differnce here.
You put a smile on my face :)
Junia might be a man...check on that, or not, just read the note on St. John Chrysostom. I know for sure Aquila and Priscilla were men (yes, they sound like girls' names, but they were in fact men). Unworthy1, all these verses show that indeed men and women are equal in the eyes of God and the church, however, I fail to see how women are given a role of leadership in the church?
[edit] And when I say role of leadership, as Mina pointed out, the priesthood or anything like that.
As a side note, to all the ladies out there...and to whoever has this problem...the problem of women's roles in the church comes up in every single confession with my father of confession, without fail, it's a problem that I struggle with...I wanted to share my father of confession's advice: Even if God intended women to have roles in the church or there are "unfair" things (I'm not going to say whether there is or isn't, just saying), obedience is always required, men or women, obedience is key to a lot of things. By blindly obeying authority figures in the church, we are freed from judgment. We may think that something is unfair but we may not understand anything about it, therefore it's better to obey God, the church, and the authority figures he has set in place to guide us on our way to salvation.
How long do you have until you plan on responding? It is a large topic with several articles having been written over the years. If this is simply a discussion in passing, that is one thing. If it is a topic that will be discussed for the remainder of the semester, for example, or a question that you personally would like to research for your own knowledge, then you have a few options.
As a quick follow up, Priscilla is a woman; Aquila, a man.
Pray for my weaknesses,
Childoforthodoxy
Well if women were on equal footing with men in regards to the service than there is no evidence in the early church that they were given lesser roles. That means that the arguments that women cannot be priests are fabricated and come back to males wanting to dominate.
I am sorry.....but i don't see how this changes anything about the Church's standing concerning "Ordination of women in priesthood"
A leadership position (or a teaching, a service a ministry or even apostleship/discipleship of some kind) is not forbidden in the Church....but a position on the priesthood is. There is a very important differnce here.
Much of the church's arguments rest on the fact that Christ's 12 disciples were all male.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11375.msg137240#msg137240 date=1304474843]
I am sorry.....but i don't see how this changes anything about the Church's standing concerning "Ordination of women in priesthood"
A leadership position (or a teaching, a service a ministry or even apostleship/discipleship of some kind) is not forbidden in the Church....but a position on the priesthood is. There is a very important differnce here.
Much of the church's arguments rest on the fact that Christ's 12 disciples were all male.
and the most important is that JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, the High Priest is male.
even if i follow that argument.....none of the quotes say anything otherwise about he 12 disciples.
LOL Unworthy1,
You put a smile on my face :)
Junia might be a man...check on that, or not, just read the note on St. John Chrysostom. I know for sure Aquila and Priscilla were men (yes, they sound like girls' names, but they were in fact men). Unworthy1, all these verses show that indeed men and women are equal in the eyes of God and the church, however, I fail to see how women are given a role of leadership in the church?
[edit] And when I say role of leadership, as Mina pointed out, the priesthood or anything like that.
Actually, it is hard to find any evidence of males as priests in the New Testament, let alone women. But what is clear is that there were some who were looked up to as elders and leaders.
There are obvious reasons for the disciples being male. However, there were female "disciples" if you will. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary's...service is not only vested in the priesthood, there are many ways to serve.
Haha, what are these "obvious" reasons?
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137245#msg137245 date=1304476081]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11375.msg137240#msg137240 date=1304474843]
I am sorry.....but i don't see how this changes anything about the Church's standing concerning "Ordination of women in priesthood"
A leadership position (or a teaching, a service a ministry or even apostleship/discipleship of some kind) is not forbidden in the Church....but a position on the priesthood is. There is a very important differnce here.
Much of the church's arguments rest on the fact that Christ's 12 disciples were all male.
and the most important is that JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, the High Priest is male.
even if i follow that argument.....none of the quotes say anything otherwise about he 12 disciples.
That is why I said that is one of the major arguments of the Church
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=11375.msg137241#msg137241 date=1304475230]
LOL Unworthy1,
You put a smile on my face :)
Junia might be a man...check on that, or not, just read the note on St. John Chrysostom. I know for sure Aquila and Priscilla were men (yes, they sound like girls' names, but they were in fact men). Unworthy1, all these verses show that indeed men and women are equal in the eyes of God and the church, however, I fail to see how women are given a role of leadership in the church?
[edit] And when I say role of leadership, as Mina pointed out, the priesthood or anything like that.
Actually, it is hard to find any evidence of males as priests in the New Testament, let alone women. But what is clear is that there were some who were looked up to as elders and leaders.
True...but not in the sense that you are thinking of leadership. I would assume that one of the many services these women could offer was through their wealth or letting the disciples use their homes for proselytizing and prayer meetings, etc. Leadership is not only through the priesthood.
http://peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm
Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., is a professor of philosophy at Boston College and at the King's College (Empire State Building), in New York City.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=11375.msg137246#msg137246 date=1304476237]
There are obvious reasons for the disciples being male. However, there were female "disciples" if you will. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary's...service is not only vested in the priesthood, there are many ways to serve.
Haha, what are these "obvious" reasons?
Well, the most obvious one is that the apostles had to travel, they could have met anyone on the way...how about the problem of rape or defending themselves?
But the question has still not been addressed. If women were counted equal with apostles and had the gifts of of prophesy, etc., why should they not be allowed into the priesthood today? Please limit evidence to that from the NT.
Also, what is the counter-argument to the professor's claim that the passages found in 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 and 1 Timothy 2:8-15 are taken to be corrective texts that address specific time-limited pastoral problems, and are thereby NOT normative?
Anyway here is a quote by St. John Chrysostom about the priesthood of women: I bolded the most relevant parts. It does appear that St. John Chrysostom places men above women here. Perhaps it is merely because the characteristics needed to "preside over the church" are found more often in men? This doesn't mean women have a lesser role, our role is just as important as the bishop's role (at least I think so? Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137249#msg137249 date=1304476636]
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=11375.msg137246#msg137246 date=1304476237]
There are obvious reasons for the disciples being male. However, there were female "disciples" if you will. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary's...service is not only vested in the priesthood, there are many ways to serve.
Haha, what are these "obvious" reasons?
Well, the most obvious one is that the apostles had to travel, they could have met anyone on the way...how about the problem of rape or defending themselves?
Valid point. But I doubt Christ chose men as disciples because He was worried about women's safety. But then again, I could be wrong.
However, I am going to be debating a historian. I need to bring in facts not mere speculation that seems plausible. Is there concrete evidence that women did not travel to minister? Is there evidence that it was only men?
Thanks for the link Mina.
But the question has still not been addressed. If women were counted equal with apostles and had the gifts of of prophesy, etc., why should they not be allowed into the priesthood today? Please limit evidence to that from the NT.
Also, what is the counter-argument to the professor's claim that the passages found in 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 and 1 Timothy 2:8-15 are taken to be corrective texts that address specific time-limited pastoral problems, and are thereby NOT normative?
i think you are misunderstanding the equality between a man and a women. they are equal in being both human beings but each have their own duties; own ways of serving God and glorifying His name on earth.
think about a rich man and a poor one. both are equal in being a human being. in matters of judging considering the aspect of existence (humanity), they are equal, but in the aspect of richness of worldly gains, the rich man is higher in status.
Women and their role in the church is no less than that of men. The role is just different. Just like the whole body of Christ metaphor. If women could have roles as deacons and priests, who would be the ones to take care of everything else, like educating the children, social service, etc?
None of these refer to the priesthood. Certainly there were women who were Apostles, certainly there women who were deaconesses, that is undisputed. Men and Women are equal in the Church but are appointed different roles. In fact the greatest saint in our Church is the Holy Theotokos, St. Mary, who is a woman.
Anyway here is a quote by St. John Chrysostom about the priesthood of women: I bolded the most relevant parts. It does appear that St. John Chrysostom places men above women here. Perhaps it is merely because the characteristics needed to "preside over the church" are found more often in men? This doesn't mean women have a lesser role, our role is just as important as the bishop's role (at least I think so? Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
That quote by St. John, will be meaningless when discussing with a historian. It will just provide evidence to his theory about how drastically the church changed after Constantine and that women were put under men, which wasn't how it was in the early church.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137254#msg137254 date=1304477229]
Thanks for the link Mina.
But the question has still not been addressed. If women were counted equal with apostles and had the gifts of of prophesy, etc., why should they not be allowed into the priesthood today? Please limit evidence to that from the NT.
Also, what is the counter-argument to the professor's claim that the passages found in 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 and 1 Timothy 2:8-15 are taken to be corrective texts that address specific time-limited pastoral problems, and are thereby NOT normative?
i think you are misunderstanding the equality between a man and a women. they are equal in being both human beings but each have their own duties; own ways of serving God and glorifying His name on earth.
think about a rich man and a poor one. both are equal in being a human being. in matters of judging considering the aspect of existence (humanity), they are equal, but in the aspect of richness of worldly gains, the rich man is higher in status.
Now provide me historical evidence that the duties of women were different than that of men. I have showed you that they were equal in duties and you agreed. Now you say they are different. You are using the mindset of TODAY. Put yourself in the 1st century.
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=11375.msg137253#msg137253 date=1304476908]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137249#msg137249 date=1304476636]
[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=11375.msg137246#msg137246 date=1304476237]
There are obvious reasons for the disciples being male. However, there were female "disciples" if you will. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary's...service is not only vested in the priesthood, there are many ways to serve.
Haha, what are these "obvious" reasons?
Well, the most obvious one is that the apostles had to travel, they could have met anyone on the way...how about the problem of rape or defending themselves?
Valid point. But I doubt Christ chose men as disciples because He was worried about women's safety. But then again, I could be wrong.
However, I am going to be debating a historian. I need to bring in facts not mere speculation that seems plausible. Is there concrete evidence that women did not travel to minister? Is there evidence that it was only men?
Well...considering that the 12 disciples were men and the 70/72 apostles were also men, I doubt you will be able to find convincing evidence for either argument, whether they did travel or not. In any case, it's not important...the point is that women don't have to be priests in order to serve and while priesthood is strictly reserved for males, females also have a role in the church, which I have only begun to understand and plan to look at it in depth more, but it's there...women DO have a role in church.
http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?6780-Woman-and-the-holy-Liturgy&p=89047&viewfull=1#post89047
I have skimmed over the thread you referred me to (that is the first 2 pages at least). The pattern that keeps returning is quotations starting from about the 3rd century (which aren't helpful for me).
Secondly, most of the quotations refer to 1 COR 14:33-35 and 1 Timothy 2:8-15. Yet they have not adequately proven that those are normative instructions by Paul. The argument that they are time and case specific, which is simply that women are hailed as apostles and praised for prophesying elsewhere (as in the original quotes I posted), has not yet been debunked.
I suppose that you are attempting to find a written account that comments on the Biblical verses within the first century on the specific role of women in the Church. I will venture to say that this will be most assuredly difficult to find, and may even then be "obscure" in the mind of the historian to whom you would present. To exclude that which is not in writing is to exclude a major part of our faith; that is, namely what the disciples and apostles imparted on the followers within the first century by word of mouth. This, by continued transference and growth in Tradition over many years, has been preserved by the Orthodox Church, and only later expounded on by those noteworthy individuals in the decades and centuries to follow, maintaining the mindset that continued undisturbed from the foundation of the Church itself.
To tackle such topics as these without the exegetical commentary by the Fathers is to take a piece of history and separate it from its appropriate surroundings. This, then, is not historical at all; or, it is merely a snapshot of a film which tells a fuller story. If you are confined to the first century writings, then a multitude of teachings which were later expanded on by the Church in more detail in the centuries to come are merely presented in a shadowed sense, whose shadow may be subject to interpretation if presented out of context. It is similar to relying only the teachings of Christ which were explicitly recorded to have come out of his mouth; there exists far too many courses, classes and books on how "Christianity was changed by the Pauline mindset." Though this may provide for a critical, secular interpretation of what it is that occurred and developed, it certainly is not the case.
Those things which were put into place continued as they were unless they were explicitly modified for the benefit of the members of Christ (e.g. the marital status of a bishop). To rely only the a few verses from the Bible to support a larger argument while discounting the continued Tradition of the Church is not religious scholarship; it is an intentional trap set to put one into the mindset of the person explaining the verses in their own personal way, imposing a contemporary mindset on a verse that was written millennia ago.
However, what evidence is there to say that these passages from Paul are normative? His argument is that they were to correct specific problems but were by no means to be applied to all churches. The sayings of the fathers are not authoritative for a historian.
The direction of the Holy Spirit is, by definition, normative, as it is singular. If this is not acknowledged as being true, then there exists a denial of the work of the Holy Spirit in the Body of the Church, which lessens the Holy Spirit to a Being less than God. If it is suggested that His guidance is multiple in nature, then He, too, must be multiple in nature, which means that there are multiple "Holy Spirits," and therefore, multiple "Gods." Since neither of these is true in the True Faith, we are lead to believe that the words which were spoken then are still applicable today, as the Holy Spirits exists outside of the confines of time.
Therefore, we either negate the Trinity or acknowledge the Oneness of the Faith.