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Is there a 2004 Synodal Decision for Diptych?
Hi all
Mods/admins, please move this topic if it's not in the right area. I haven't been on this site for 7 years.
I was trained to not chant the full text of the response "Erepou esmou ethouab" ('May their holy blessings',barakathom) after the priest finishes the diptych and has mentioned the names of congregation members who have departed. Rather, I would then start the response at "Doxa ci kyrie".
Recently, a fellow chanter told me that this is no longer valid and that there is a 2004 decision from the Holy Synod that says that we must say the full text of the response, regardless of the diptych, because that response is for the saints and not the congregation members whom have passed...
Does anyone know if this is true or not, or if someone has heard or been taught the same as me and was corrected?
I know the Synodal decisions are unfortunately not documented and published.. but I'm banking on something being known.
thanks muchly
Midiane.
Mods/admins, please move this topic if it's not in the right area. I haven't been on this site for 7 years.
I was trained to not chant the full text of the response "Erepou esmou ethouab" ('May their holy blessings',barakathom) after the priest finishes the diptych and has mentioned the names of congregation members who have departed. Rather, I would then start the response at "Doxa ci kyrie".
Recently, a fellow chanter told me that this is no longer valid and that there is a 2004 decision from the Holy Synod that says that we must say the full text of the response, regardless of the diptych, because that response is for the saints and not the congregation members whom have passed...
Does anyone know if this is true or not, or if someone has heard or been taught the same as me and was corrected?
I know the Synodal decisions are unfortunately not documented and published.. but I'm banking on something being known.
thanks muchly
Midiane.
Comments
the thing is that, many priests begin the tarheem right after the deacon's response "let those who read." the priest mentions the names of people who are not canonical saints. so it is not fitting to say "may their holy blessings"....that's why you are taught to say dthoxasi instead of erepo....but that should only happen if the priest says the tarheem before the people's response.
I don't know if the Synod has decided on this.
the thing is that, many priests begin the tarheem right after the deacon's response "let those who read." the priest mentions the names of people who are not canonical saints. so it is not fitting to say "may their holy blessings"....that's why you are taught to say dthoxasi instead of erepo....but that should only happen if the priest says the tarheem before the people's response.
Interesting - I never knew that. So is it true or not that this practice was made null in 2004?
In the comemoration we remember all those who reposed in the faith and ask for their blessings regardless of whose names mentioned. So, we should say the whole response in its entirety.
nooooooooooooo
there is a differnce between canonical saint and other departed people. if you are right, than there is nooo need for the separation between the magma3 and the tarheem. there is a clear distinction. we only ask blessings, prayers and intercessions of canonical saint......not every departed person who left the earth. they have no blessings to give, on the contrary to some certain extent they still need our prayers.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12181.msg143668#msg143668 date=1314317215]
In the comemoration we remember all those who reposed in the faith and ask for their blessings regardless of whose names mentioned. So, we should say the whole response in its entirety.
nooooooooooooo
there is a differnce between canonical saint and other departed people. if you are right, than there is nooo need for the separation between the magma3 and the tarheem. there is a clear distinction. we only ask blessings, prayers and intercessions of canonical saint......not every departed person who left the earth. they have no blessings to give, on the contrary to some certain extent they still need our prayers.
You missed my point or I was not clear.
What I am saying is that the Church ask the prayers of the victorious church. Those who departed belong therefore we mention them so that they may mention us as well.
Thus the hymn Erepo esmoo should be said in its entirety at all times.
You missed my point or I was not clear.
What I am saying is that the Church ask the prayers of the victorious church. Those who departed belong therefore we mention them so that they may mention us as well.
Thus the hymn Erepo esmoo should be said in its entirety at all times.
noo...i didn't miss your point. the victorious church is that of the saints........ppl that are mentioned in the tarheem are those who departed and are not canonical saints....not that we are declaring that they are not saints, but we simply don't know if they are yet.
therefore i still stand for what i said: we only ask blessings, prayers and intercessions of canonical saints
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12181.msg143691#msg143691 date=1314329926]
You missed my point or I was not clear.
What I am saying is that the Church ask the prayers of the victorious church. Those who departed belong therefore we mention them so that they may mention us as well.
Thus the hymn Erepo esmoo should be said in its entirety at all times.
noo...i didn't miss your point. the victorious church is that of the saints........ppl that are mentioned in the tarheem are those who departed and are not canonical saints....not that we are declaring that they are not saints, but we simply don't know if they are yet.
therefore i still stand for what i said: we only ask blessings, prayers and intercessions of canonical saints
And I agree they are not canonical saints but that does not mean that they are not saintly people. Therefore, we have to say the whole hymn in its entirety for we are asking the blessings of those who reached paradise before us.
And I agree they are not canonical saints but that does not mean that they are not saintly people.
look.....i REFUSE to believe that. you believe whatever you think. I would LOVE to get a priest's comment on this. in that specific way of thinking you are placing all the people in one rank. I am not saying that we, as humans, are not considered saints/holy in a unique way...........one more time maybe your screen didn't preview this right:
we only ask blessings, prayers and intercessions of canonical saints.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12181.msg143694#msg143694 date=1314330470]
And I agree they are not canonical saints but that does not mean that they are not saintly people.
look.....i REFUSE to believe that. you believe whatever you think. I would LOVE to get a priest's comment on this. in that specific way of thinking you are placing all the people in one rank. I am not saying that we, as humans, are not considered saints/holy in a unique way...........one more time maybe your screen didn't preview this right:
we only ask blessings, prayers and intercessions of canonical saints.
Before you make up your mind you need to read the liturgical prayers carefully which I will explain for you in my next post.
guys, please don't pollute this thread to be about something else...
ok. so no one has heard anything about the 2004 decision. its ok. thanks for your replies.
imikhail, would you know if the synodal decisions are documented anywhere either online or in print?
The Church ask for these prayers in her liturgical prayers. There are many many verses in the Bible that proves intercession which is not the topic of this thread. However, I will present one verse for each type of intercession and the liturgical prayer that go with it.
Asking prayers of those still living:
Old Testament: God ordered Abimelech to have Abrham pray for him (Genesis 20)
New Testament: St Paul is asking the Ephesians to pray for him so that the Lord might assist him. (Ephesians 6L:19)
[u]Liturgical Prayers:[/u] Through the litanies the congregation is asked to pray for the priests, the deacons, the bishops, the high priest, the peach of the Church, the air, the waters, the fruits, the sick, the reposed, ....
Asking the prayers of those reposed (while not being canonized in the Church):
Old Testament: Nehmiah 9. The Israelites asked that God might have mercy on them for the sake of their fathers (even though they did not leead a sainltly life and disobeyed)
New Testament: Luke 16 the evil rich man in Hadesprays for his family that was still on earth.
Liturgical prayers:
In the comemoration of the saints, after mentioning the ranks of the spirits, the priest continues" "and all the spirits of the righteous perfected in the faith".
The the deacon commands the congregation to:"Pray for our fathers and brethren who have fallen asleep and reposed in the faith of Christ since the beginning; our holy fathers, the archbishops, our fathers the bishops, our fathers the hegumens, our fathers the priests, our brethren the deacons, our fathers the monks, and our fathers the laymen, and for the full repose of Christians.
The reason for the prayer: That Christ our God may repose all their souls in the paradise of joy, and we too, accord mercy unto us, and forgive us our sins"
minatasgeel, calm down please. and dont hijack my thread to be about something else.
guys, please don't pollute this thread to be about something else...
ok. so no one has heard anything about the 2004 decision. its ok. thanks for your replies.
imikhail, would you know if the synodal decisions are documented anywhere either online or in print?
Mediane,
I have not personally read the decision. However, I did hear from congregation members, not deacons, that there was a decision taken by late bishop Youwannis of Tanta that he ordered his diocese to say the whole hymn regardless of what the priest mentions. (The reason they mentioned this was in my church the deacons used to cut the hymn, as you described, based on whether the priest mentions laity names after the congregation.
You can access the synodal decisions here:
http://www.theholysynod.copticpope.org/aspect01.htm ;
At our church, however, the priest doesn't mention the names of the departed until after the hymn is said, ie. he prepends it to "Those O Lord who's souls you have taken."
Actually, i spoke to my FOC in the church. His opinion and the teaching that is given by other bishops and priests is much much better than what i am saying. Erepo esmo is the end of the hymn Pinishti el-kebera. Dthoxasi is fully a different response....it's even in a different language. another thing that shows that is the part where it says "Lord repose them"......do the saints need repose?!
Yes, the hymn is actually made of two parts as you explained. However, that does not negate the fact that we still ask the prayers of those who departed as I explained above.
Hi all
Mods/admins, please move this topic if it's not in the right area. I haven't been on this site for 7 years.
I was trained to not chant the full text of the response "Erepou esmou ethouab" ('May their holy blessings',barakathom) after the priest finishes the diptych and has mentioned the names of congregation members who have departed. Rather, I would then start the response at "Doxa ci kyrie".
Recently, a fellow chanter told me that this is no longer valid and that there is a 2004 decision from the Holy Synod that says that we must say the full text of the response, regardless of the diptych, because that response is for the saints and not the congregation members whom have passed...
Does anyone know if this is true or not, or if someone has heard or been taught the same as me and was corrected?
I know the Synodal decisions are unfortunately not documented and published.. but I'm banking on something being known.
thanks muchly
Midiane.
I think u are a brilliant deacon for asking this question. It means you don't do things haphazardly in the Liturgy. Well done to you! That's brilliant.
Well done to all of you that even knew about this issue - I had no idea (lol).
[quote author=Midiane link=topic=12181.msg143611#msg143611 date=1314189911]
Hi all
Mods/admins, please move this topic if it's not in the right area. I haven't been on this site for 7 years.
I was trained to not chant the full text of the response "Erepou esmou ethouab" ('May their holy blessings',barakathom) after the priest finishes the diptych and has mentioned the names of congregation members who have departed. Rather, I would then start the response at "Doxa ci kyrie".
Recently, a fellow chanter told me that this is no longer valid and that there is a 2004 decision from the Holy Synod that says that we must say the full text of the response, regardless of the diptych, because that response is for the saints and not the congregation members whom have passed...
Does anyone know if this is true or not, or if someone has heard or been taught the same as me and was corrected?
I know the Synodal decisions are unfortunately not documented and published.. but I'm banking on something being known.
thanks muchly
Midiane.
I think u are a brilliant deacon for asking this question. It means you don't do things haphazardly in the Liturgy. Well done to you! That's brilliant.
Well done to all of you that even knew about this issue - I had no idea (lol).
I couldn't agree more.
Yes, the hymn is actually made of two parts as you explained. However, that does not negate the fact that we still ask the prayers of those who departed as I explained above.
noooo.....i still stand to what i said.
Erepo esmo is part of pinishti that is said after nee-etosh. dthoxasi said basically before nee-man epshois......after all kinds of tarheems are done. the source: Old Muhharraq Liturgy book.
The Church does ask the prayers of all the Orthodox people who have reposed in the faith. This the right teaching whether you choose to accept it or not.
It is beyond me why an individual would argue something that isn't even the main thrust of the thread. Those how do not understand what is being discussed should not open their mouths. Period.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
It is beyond me why an individual would argue something that isn't even the main thrust of the thread. Those how do not understand what is being discussed should not open their mouths. Period.
Would not that apply to your comment?!!!!!!!!!