[quote author=TITL link=topic=12494.msg146586#msg146586 date=1319554510] Wait. What happens after 40 days!?
You run the risk of demonic possession. That doesn't mean it will happen. It just means you open yourself up to it. There are not hard and fast rules though.
I think the 9 hours signifies the 9 months that Jesus was in St Mary's womb, and that is why we don't eat for 9 hours before, and why some things happen for 9 hours after communion. All I know is that you shouldn't eat chewing gum, or put anything in your mouth for 9 hours after communion so that nothing of the Body that you took would be picked up and taken out of your body, for example, if you brushed your teeth, you could take some of the body out by accident and wash it away.
There is no rule to not eat for 9 hours after communion. People are allowed to eat after communion. And if you think about it, even if a piece of gum accidentally picked up a piece of the Eucharist, is the salvation effect of Eucharist nullified? If a piece of Eucharist that came out of your mouth touched the floor and you didn't know it, will fire come down from heaven? Will there be any punishment? Is our God an angry god who punishes people for mistakes? Or is our God a merciful God who gives salvation through grace, not something I did or didn't do.
These rules have their place. They are meant for young children who do not know any better. But because they are so abused and they make people forget what the true image of the merciful Trinity is, we should grow up and "put away such childish things".
These rules have their place. They are meant for young children who do not know any better. But because they are so abused and they make people forget what the true image of the merciful Trinity is, we should grow up and "put away such childish things".
I understand where you are coming from Remenkimi. However belittling the teachings of our fathers is against the Church teaching.
If you are not happy with certain teachings, it is not you who should change them. They need to be discussed with the bishop.
At the end, if the bishop insists that a certain teaching stands and you do not agree with, then you need to abide by the teaching out of obedience and submission to the Church.
Has any bishop ever said you can't eat gum or go swimming or get a hair cut or eat after communion? And apparently, no one agrees on the minimum time requirement when such actions should be avoided. Is it 1 hour? Is it 9 hours? Is it till dusk? Is it 24 hours? Has any bishop stated you must take communion within 40 days to escape demon possession? Has there ever been any church father stating these things in their patristic writings? As far as I can tell these rules came about by laity who heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone. These are all un-official catechesis teachings. I don't think the clergy, any bishop, the Synod or any patristic father has said these things. Correct me if I'm wrong. If they have, I will shut up.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12494.msg146690#msg146690 date=1319654352] Omnicon, Welcome to the forums.
There is no rule to not eat for 9 hours after communion. People are allowed to eat after communion. And if you think about it, even if a piece of gum accidentally picked up a piece of the Eucharist, is the salvation effect of Eucharist nullified? If a piece of Eucharist that came out of your mouth touched the floor and you didn't know it, will fire come down from heaven? Will there be any punishment? Is our God an angry god who punishes people for mistakes? Or is our God a merciful God who gives salvation through grace, not something I did or didn't do.
These rules have their place. They are meant for young children who do not know any better. But because they are so abused and they make people forget what the true image of the merciful Trinity is, we should grow up and "put away such childish things".
Even if these are just practices from the laity, they are meant to build up our respect for the Body and Blood of Christ. Of course the salvation effect is not nullified if your gum gets a piece of the Eucharist, nor will God punish you. The reason people follow these is because it teaches us how great respect we need to show for the Eucharist because this is the actual Body and Blood of Christ. This I feel, is one of the great things about being in the Orthodox church : how sacred we view the Holy Communion. The reason we don't chew gum or spit is because we fear that we could be spitting out a piece of the Body of Christ to the ground, upon which people may walk. How disrespectful would that be! We value Christ's body so much we don't want even a crumb to be disgraced! I was also taught not to place any object on top of the Bible (other than a cross). Does this affect how well I know my Bible and follow His word, or will God punish me for not doing it? Likely no, but it does teach me how much respect I need to have for the Word of God. It is not just another book, the Bible is something sacred.
Following these rules without the heart to accompany that respect is of course pointless, but the rules are there to build in us this utmost respect for Christ's Body.
Remnkemi, the answer to your question is "yes"... I actually just recently watched a sermon by a bishop on aghapy, about how we should fulfill the little, to be granted the great, through which he addressed all these things (he even went more and spoke how we shouldn't even walk barefooted), I will try to find that sermon and post it.
you see, I used to think the same way, what is the need of being that cautious, then I heard that sermon!
remember not everything we do in the church is mentioned in tradition, for example find me where it says you are not to wear shoes in the altar?! you will only find that in the Coptic church! find me where in the church fathers does it say anything about the vestment of the deaconship... and how is it different now?!
tradition is not only written, but also is passed through teachings... and through the wisdom of the church it passed such "rules" to help you honor the bread and wine (which became the body and blood of our Lord).
I remember back in the days I used to refuse praying with a prayer rope, because some people came and they said we stole/adapted this idea from islam, and the society... I searched and searched and found out that the prayer rope is actually originated from the Coptic church and her early saints... but because people think its okay to say what they think is right, I was forbidden of such a great prayer. My beloved if the church found any of these things erroneous they would have taught us not to do it.
another thing... about the time, the nine hours is a symbolic time, again it was mentioned the time the Christ suffered, was 9 hours, also as mentioned 9 for the Christ being in womb of saint Mary... but it is a time set with wisdom, nine hours will give you time to enter the new day honoring the body and blood you consumed! remember to partake of the communion, its a whole day process... you start with raising of incense, vespers, which is made in the beginning of that day to prepare you for the day... then you go through tasbeha which will talk a lot about the old testament, again preparing you for the entrance of Chirst... then you receive The Christ, and after that you are out in the world preaching the Christ, so the church in her wisdom wants you to honor God for the rest of the day, which is the sunset...
These 'rules' are truly a sign of the times. The early Church never had them and they knew well enough to respect the Gifts offered every liturgy. The fact that we, in this modern age, have to create these pseudo-rules and assign pseudo-spiritual meanings to them to validate them just shows how we have become slack in our understanding of Church history and doctrine. There is no Traditional (be it Scriptural, Patristic, or canonical (i.e. Ecumenical Canons)) basis for any of these rules. They have become common place because of the slipping spirituality of the Church's members. We have become lax in our respect of the Church and of Christ's sacrifice. That is why these pseudo-rules have been put in place. I suppose this is the situation where St. Paul speaks of the stronger bearing the weaker in faith. If these 'rules' help you, then by all means follow them.
There is a reason why we drink water right after communion and that is to make sure there are no "jewels" left in the mouth and everything is consumed.
For extra caution, we do not brush our teeth or spit for fear the "jewels" are still in the mouth. No problem with being careful, no ecumenical council needed to address this issue - I guess if it becomes a problem, we may indeed need a council to address it.
The only thing that the Church canons addressed was the bleeding issue. Hence, the caution not to swim, shave, walking bare-foot , ... for fear of injury and bleeding.
This has nothing to do with Islam or Jewish practices, but has to do with how the Church teaches her children to be extra careful with communion.
These rules were devised to implement the Church teachings and may be they were not penned down, yet we can find traces in old manuscripts, hundred of years ago. However, they were handed down from generation to generation. No they are not a sign of the end time nor a lack of spirituality. Rather, they are a sign of how alert the Church is to the awesomeness of the holy mysteries.
The number 9 is significant in that it reminds of the hours our Lord Jesus Christ spent to pay our debts and thus grant us salvation. This is the way of the cross starting from 9:00 AM - 6:00 PM, the trial, crucifixion, death, and laying in the tomb took a total of 9 hours.
As for the not chewing gum, or swimming, or walking barefoot, or bathing, etc., many of us have been raised hearing comments like these. The key point is that Christ has physically touched your body, your mouth, your lips, etc., and the drop of blood which you took into your mouth is running through your veins. Thus, the real message is that you ought to be extra careful and reverent throughout the day, from the inside out, guarding every member of your body.
Demon possession is possible since the longer one does not partake of the holy sacrament of the Sacred Eucharist, the more vulnerable one becomes to the attacks of the devil. Some may argue, what about the fathers who live in solitude? In many of their writings, we do see an ongoing warfare declared against by the demons. However, since they continued to practice their ascetic rules, prayed and fasted, they were protected from total vulnerability to such demons. If someone chooses to be careless and negligent, then that person is allowing pride to interfere, because he/she think they are invincible. Since the devil loves pride, he will take advantage of this attitude and can find a way into this person.
The number 9 is significant in that it reminds of the hours our Lord Jesus Christ spent to pay our debts and thus grant us salvation. This is the way of the cross starting from 9:00 AM - 6:00 PM, the trial, crucifixion, death, and laying in the tomb took a total of 9 hours.
As for the not chewing gum, or swimming, or walking barefoot, or bathing, etc., many of us have been raised hearing comments like these. The key point is that Christ has physically touched your body, your mouth, your lips, etc., and the drop of blood which you took into your mouth is running through your veins. Thus, the real message is that you ought to be extra careful and reverent throughout the day, from the inside out, guarding every member of your body.
Demon possession is possible since the longer one does not partake of the holy sacrament of the Sacred Eucharist, the more vulnerable one becomes to the attacks of the devil. Some may argue, what about the fathers who live in solitude? In many of their writings, we do see an ongoing warfare declared against by the demons. However, since they continued to practice their ascetic rules, prayed and fasted, they were protected from total vulnerability to such demons. If someone chooses to be careless and negligent, then that person is allowing pride to interfere, because he/she think they are invincible. Since the devil loves pride, he will take advantage of this attitude and can find a way into this person.
Guys its funny because i asked another bishop and he said there is no significance so since the church HAS NO strict response on this subject i wouldnt just say something. I dont think its something agreed upon i think its a contemplative response
Ok but what does it mean when someone's finger bleeds right after they take the wafer and wine? My mothers finger literally bled one drop of blood with no cut to be found. Is this a bad omen?
Comments
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12494.msg146586#msg146586 date=1319554510]
Wait. What happens after 40 days!?
You run the risk of demonic possession. That doesn't mean it will happen. It just means you open yourself up to it. There are not hard and fast rules though.
My heart just dropped.
I think that's what I know.
God bless :)
Welcome to the forums.
There is no rule to not eat for 9 hours after communion. People are allowed to eat after communion. And if you think about it, even if a piece of gum accidentally picked up a piece of the Eucharist, is the salvation effect of Eucharist nullified? If a piece of Eucharist that came out of your mouth touched the floor and you didn't know it, will fire come down from heaven? Will there be any punishment? Is our God an angry god who punishes people for mistakes? Or is our God a merciful God who gives salvation through grace, not something I did or didn't do.
These rules have their place. They are meant for young children who do not know any better. But because they are so abused and they make people forget what the true image of the merciful Trinity is, we should grow up and "put away such childish things".
If you are not happy with certain teachings, it is not you who should change them. They need to be discussed with the bishop.
At the end, if the bishop insists that a certain teaching stands and you do not agree with, then you need to abide by the teaching out of obedience and submission to the Church.
Omnicon,
Welcome to the forums.
There is no rule to not eat for 9 hours after communion. People are allowed to eat after communion. And if you think about it, even if a piece of gum accidentally picked up a piece of the Eucharist, is the salvation effect of Eucharist nullified? If a piece of Eucharist that came out of your mouth touched the floor and you didn't know it, will fire come down from heaven? Will there be any punishment? Is our God an angry god who punishes people for mistakes? Or is our God a merciful God who gives salvation through grace, not something I did or didn't do.
These rules have their place. They are meant for young children who do not know any better. But because they are so abused and they make people forget what the true image of the merciful Trinity is, we should grow up and "put away such childish things".
Even if these are just practices from the laity, they are meant to build up our respect for the Body and Blood of Christ. Of course the salvation effect is not nullified if your gum gets a piece of the Eucharist, nor will God punish you. The reason people follow these is because it teaches us how great respect we need to show for the Eucharist because this is the actual Body and Blood of Christ. This I feel, is one of the great things about being in the Orthodox church : how sacred we view the Holy Communion. The reason we don't chew gum or spit is because we fear that we could be spitting out a piece of the Body of Christ to the ground, upon which people may walk. How disrespectful would that be! We value Christ's body so much we don't want even a crumb to be disgraced! I was also taught not to place any object on top of the Bible (other than a cross). Does this affect how well I know my Bible and follow His word, or will God punish me for not doing it? Likely no, but it does teach me how much respect I need to have for the Word of God. It is not just another book, the Bible is something sacred.
Following these rules without the heart to accompany that respect is of course pointless, but the rules are there to build in us this utmost respect for Christ's Body.
you see, I used to think the same way, what is the need of being that cautious, then I heard that sermon!
remember not everything we do in the church is mentioned in tradition, for example find me where it says you are not to wear shoes in the altar?! you will only find that in the Coptic church! find me where in the church fathers does it say anything about the vestment of the deaconship... and how is it different now?!
tradition is not only written, but also is passed through teachings... and through the wisdom of the church it passed such "rules" to help you honor the bread and wine (which became the body and blood of our Lord).
I remember back in the days I used to refuse praying with a prayer rope, because some people came and they said we stole/adapted this idea from islam, and the society... I searched and searched and found out that the prayer rope is actually originated from the Coptic church and her early saints... but because people think its okay to say what they think is right, I was forbidden of such a great prayer. My beloved if the church found any of these things erroneous they would have taught us not to do it.
another thing... about the time, the nine hours is a symbolic time, again it was mentioned the time the Christ suffered, was 9 hours, also as mentioned 9 for the Christ being in womb of saint Mary... but it is a time set with wisdom, nine hours will give you time to enter the new day honoring the body and blood you consumed! remember to partake of the communion, its a whole day process... you start with raising of incense, vespers, which is made in the beginning of that day to prepare you for the day... then you go through tasbeha which will talk a lot about the old testament, again preparing you for the entrance of Chirst... then you receive The Christ, and after that you are out in the world preaching the Christ, so the church in her wisdom wants you to honor God for the rest of the day, which is the sunset...
These 'rules' are truly a sign of the times. The early Church never had them and they knew well enough to respect the Gifts offered every liturgy. The fact that we, in this modern age, have to create these pseudo-rules and assign pseudo-spiritual meanings to them to validate them just shows how we have become slack in our understanding of Church history and doctrine. There is no Traditional (be it Scriptural, Patristic, or canonical (i.e. Ecumenical Canons)) basis for any of these rules. They have become common place because of the slipping spirituality of the Church's members. We have become lax in our respect of the Church and of Christ's sacrifice. That is why these pseudo-rules have been put in place. I suppose this is the situation where St. Paul speaks of the stronger bearing the weaker in faith. If these 'rules' help you, then by all means follow them.
For extra caution, we do not brush our teeth or spit for fear the "jewels" are still in the mouth. No problem with being careful, no ecumenical council needed to address this issue - I guess if it becomes a problem, we may indeed need a council to address it.
The only thing that the Church canons addressed was the bleeding issue. Hence, the caution not to swim, shave, walking bare-foot , ... for fear of injury and bleeding.
This has nothing to do with Islam or Jewish practices, but has to do with how the Church teaches her children to be extra careful with communion.
These rules were devised to implement the Church teachings and may be they were not penned down, yet we can find traces in old manuscripts, hundred of years ago. However, they were handed down from generation to generation. No they are not a sign of the end time nor a lack of spirituality. Rather, they are a sign of how alert the Church is to the awesomeness of the holy mysteries.
I asked a Bishop just for you ;)
"Peace and grace,
The number 9 is significant in that it reminds of the hours our Lord Jesus Christ spent to pay our debts and thus grant us salvation. This is the way of the cross starting from 9:00 AM - 6:00 PM, the trial, crucifixion, death, and laying in the tomb took a total of 9 hours.
As for the not chewing gum, or swimming, or walking barefoot, or bathing, etc., many of us have been raised hearing comments like these. The key point is that Christ has physically touched your body, your mouth, your lips, etc., and the drop of blood which you took into your mouth is running through your veins. Thus, the real message is that you ought to be extra careful and reverent throughout the day, from the inside out, guarding every member of your body.
Demon possession is possible since the longer one does not partake of the holy sacrament of the Sacred Eucharist, the more vulnerable one becomes to the attacks of the devil. Some may argue, what about the fathers who live in solitude? In many of their writings, we do see an ongoing warfare declared against by the demons. However, since they continued to practice their ascetic rules, prayed and fasted, they were protected from total vulnerability to such demons. If someone chooses to be careless and negligent, then that person is allowing pride to interfere, because he/she think they are invincible. Since the devil loves pride, he will take advantage of this attitude and can find a way into this person.
God bless you
Bishop Youssef"
Remnkemi,
I asked a Bishop just for you ;)
"Peace and grace,
The number 9 is significant in that it reminds of the hours our Lord Jesus Christ spent to pay our debts and thus grant us salvation. This is the way of the cross starting from 9:00 AM - 6:00 PM, the trial, crucifixion, death, and laying in the tomb took a total of 9 hours.
As for the not chewing gum, or swimming, or walking barefoot, or bathing, etc., many of us have been raised hearing comments like these. The key point is that Christ has physically touched your body, your mouth, your lips, etc., and the drop of blood which you took into your mouth is running through your veins. Thus, the real message is that you ought to be extra careful and reverent throughout the day, from the inside out, guarding every member of your body.
Demon possession is possible since the longer one does not partake of the holy sacrament of the Sacred Eucharist, the more vulnerable one becomes to the attacks of the devil. Some may argue, what about the fathers who live in solitude? In many of their writings, we do see an ongoing warfare declared against by the demons. However, since they continued to practice their ascetic rules, prayed and fasted, they were protected from total vulnerability to such demons. If someone chooses to be careless and negligent, then that person is allowing pride to interfere, because he/she think they are invincible. Since the devil loves pride, he will take advantage of this attitude and can find a way into this person.
God bless you
Bishop Youssef"
Sweet! Well done TITL! HG Youssef is awesome!