66% of Orthodox Christians are not really Orthodox and should be excommunicated?

metouro

• #1

According to https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-eastern-orthodox-church

"Despite official stance, a survey released in 2018 by the Public Religious Research Institute (PRRI) finds a majority, 66 percent, of U.S. Eastern Orthodox Christians supporting marriage equality."

Does this mean that 66% of Orthodox Christians are not really Orthodox and should be excommunicated?

If 66% of Orthodox Christians say that men should be able to marry other men if they want to, and those 66% still take communion with the other 34%, and this is allowed to continue, how are Eastern Orthodox Christians of One Accord, of the same Mind as Christ, knowing that they commune together but do not believe the same thing, about basic moral choices.

I trust that a similar unfortunate sentiment  does not exist among U.S. Copts.

menneeryacoub

Did our Lord not implore us to abstain from judging others? Besides, marriage is a civil right, one that everyone is entitled to, regardless of religion, race or sexuality. 

minatasgeel

@metouro. This topic is a bit complicated and numbers are for sure hard to provide. But, the Orthodox Church's stance is the same. That being said, you have to consider that we cannot deal with homosexuality without considering it to be like any other sin that is related to purity. Meaning that you can't accept an adulator while not also accepting a homosexual. It comes down to judging the sin and not the sinner--this doesn't just go for the sin of homosexuality but all sins. 

@menneeryacoub. You cannot just invoke that ask from God without considering that we are judging the sin and not the person. Also, marriage in its core definition is NOT civil right...it's purely a religious one that became secular as it became harder for religious institutions to continue to manage it. In addition, the separation of church and state was not really a thing--the state always wanted to control the church--that is the people. 

So, considering that marriage in the Christian understanding is between a man and a woman and anything else would be considered sinful, then we have every right to preach that. Now, not every church goes out there and says it. But, in due time where a specific congregation is affected by such a sin, that clarification is stressed and sounded publicly. Not that the Church is attacking anyone who is doing that sin, while that's how it may look to people outside the circle, but it's for the edification of those in that specific parish/group/organization. This is a problem considering how news travel on social media today: a priest would make a statement in his church, on a specific Sunday for a specific group of people, and then it would be shared to everyone and generalized and be taken as an attack from the Church.

metouro

It's not a judgement but a fact. If the Church officially has a stance teaching one thing and members of the Church disagree and believe something else then clearly they are not in communion with what the Church teaches.

Marriage for an Orthodox Christian is not "a civil right regardless of sexuality."
Marriage is a sacrament between Man and woman ordained by God. For an Orthodox Christian to approve of homosexual acts of any kind, including in civil, not religious context - and worse- in a religious context- is an abomination.

No Orthodox Christian should ever bring the Faith into disrepute by saying they approve of homosexual acts- ever.

metouro

God, who is love, calls all people to holiness. Christians are to bend their will to God's will, deny themselves and carry their cross, including those Christians who suffer from same-sex attraction, not affirm our fallen natures, and not to encourage others to do so, but to struggle to holiness with God's grace.


As a "Christian" who suffers from same sex attraction, the right "choice" is to carry your cross, deny yourself, and bend your will to God's will. The wrong "choice" is to wallow in our fallen nature and indulge in what the Bible calls an abomination and what the new testament and old testament and all the church fathers clearly condemned.

If your right hand, having no choice in being born with it, causes us to sin, what does Jesus tell us to do with it? He tells us to cut it off. Likewise with same sex attraction.... struggle against it even if it hurts like cutting off your hand.

Instead of forming other "denominations" Christians should return to the original Church: the Orthodox Church. One tends to find less than the fullness of the Christian life, or worse- heresies- outside the Orthodox Church

We are all infected with sin, physical, emotional, and spiritual diseases because of our fallen natures. But in Christ we are on our way to get rid of all of that because He took our nature and perfected it in Himself.



Orthodox Christianity also teaches that homosexual sex is immoral. But those tempted to indulge in and act upon the temptation of same sex attraction who also wish to live a holy Christian life should be loved and told the truth about this lifestyle. Those who do not want to live a holy Christian life should be loved nonetheless but a Christian who disagrees with their lifestyle need not be called a bigot or homophobe. Real Christianity is not about affirming our fallen nature. It is not about tolerating sodomy. It is not about tolerating sexual acts between members of the same gender or any sex act outside of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony which can only be between a man and a woman - because God says so. All else is sin that a true Christian struggles against, not accepts.

Daniel_Kyrillos

(Admin, please feel free to delete this comment if you feel it does not help the discussion, as this might cause some people to get upset.)

@metouro, I say this with a spirit of love and humility: this approach is not how the discussion will be settled. If you bring this message to anyone who has a disagreement with you, this will not foster talk of solutions, but anger. It takes just one upsetting word to shut some off from listening to you, or anyone else who comes after you, ever again.
There are 2 parts to the discussion, and I think @menneeryacoub's comment and @minatasgeel's response show both sides. The two questions 1) Is same-sex attraction OK? 2) Should it be legalized/allowed?

In Western society, there are enough people and scientists who will bring up facts to try and prove that the answer to 1 is yes and therefore 2 should also be yes. However, we are a polarized society, especially in America; it is increasingly difficult to have a good-faith discussion about anything without being strawmanned, ad hominem-ed, and insulted to death. Let's avoid it all together by picking our battles.

A few years back, I heard a servant tell my youth group that homosexuality was the "great sin" plaguing our generation; I wish I could go back and correct that servant. My life has, practically, changed very little since the US Supreme Court case in 2015. Being realistic, what has Obergefell v. Hodges changed about your life? Let it be legal, let it be illegal, I really don't care; I'd rather focus the energy of the community to more pressing things.
Remember: as much as some may want it, we do not live in a Christian state. Being honest, I don't think I would want to. And that means we will not have the laws of our country be Orthodox. This all deals with my second question from earlier- has anything changed about the first? There is no requirement that the Coptic Church honor same-sex marriage licenses. There is no requirement that we hand them out. There is a separation of Church and government that, at times, sucks for the Church part of that relationship. And I don't think anyone, not even the most progressive activists, want to force churches (Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, or otherwise) into doing such things. 

None of this negates the fact that, in the eyes of the Church, the answer to question 1 is still no. I just think that this discussion will not get us anywhere, and we will waste our breath and effort. 

ophadece

Dear @Daniel_Kyrillos, I think you know how much I respect you, I am a little bit disappointed in your position. Please don't forget to pray for me and my family..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ

menneeryacoub

@minatasgeel it's not an either/or thing. Marriage can be civil, religious or both depending on a country's laws and customs. The church and state are indeed separate now in most countries. Perhaps this is for the better.

@metouro this whole theory of 'rejecting' one's homosexuality has been tried and tested many times over the centuries, and has failed over and over again. All it does is hurt people and cripple them on a deep psychological level. Also, you cannot casually refer to homosexuality as 'sodomy' and not expect to be called a homophobe. 

@Daniel_Kyrillos I agree with you 100%, very well put. One thing I'd add though is that we as the Coptic community need to end the stigma surrounding homosexuality, as it turns many young people away from the church and makes them feel rejected in a world where they already feel alienated. Too many young kids have died from such rejection. 

i honestly find it hard to believe how up-in-arms people get over same-sex marriage, while ignoring or staying silent on issues such as arranged marriage, which still takes place within our church and is arguably more damaging and harmful in the long term. 

minatasgeel

I expected this whole thing of "separation of church and state" to come up...which today is not really defined. Thomas Jefferson is the first to use that phrase to defend the church from the acts of state, referencing the freedom of religion clause. Everyone today thinks it's the other way around.

@menneeryacoub... you are confusing "marriage" with "civil unions"... by definition those are separate. And as Christians we must recognize the difference. Otherwise, why are we still getting married in our churches?!

Also, the Church doesn't have a stigma, but She has every right on earth and in heaven to defend and preach her views and beliefs for the sake of her children. If the Christian faith is not made clear at all times, then how can it continue surviving?! I mentioned before that, yes, we have to deal with this sin as part of any other purity-related sin. But to normalize that sin and make it acceptable within the Church will never happen.

Too many kids are being sexulized by the society every part our of the day. The church has the right to fix that by teaching their parents best practices and keeping firm in the faith.

It's hard to deny that "same-sex attraction doesn't exist"--the Church hasn't done that. But the Church's stance is the biblical one that is taught to the believers to survive to enter heaven, not stay on earth and be accepted by the society.

I will probably close this discussion soon.

menneeryacoub

@minatasgeel the idea of separating church and state has been around since the Reformation if not earlier. Separating the two means religious institutions don't get to meddle in laws used to govern society, which has always been a part of the equation, as was the case for Henry VIII.

The problem with civil unions is that they are inferior to marriage and often do not provide couples the same legal rights as marriage does. If they did, there wouldn't be an issue in the first place. 

The church doesn't have a stigma you say? then howcome it organised a conference on treating homosexuality in 2017? Why do so many LGBT+ young people feel scared to talk about their feelings with their parents and/or priests? Every time this discussion is had, at least one person chimes in claiming that the simple act of being attracted to someone of the same sex is "an affront" to traditional [heteronormative] values (whatever this means). 

And again- why is this an either/or situation? why should someone suffer if said suffering can be easily prevented? 

minatasgeel

I am speaking as an American . I agree with you about civil unions, and we don't have those in the states. But, we can agree on resolving that problem instead of redefining marriage. Fix laws to accommodate that distinction. Tell the government that, from a secular point of view, they are inherently the same.

All of what you are saying is that you want to redefine the church's view towards homosexuality to not be a sin. But it is. For as much as we talk about homosexuality being a sin, we also talk about fornication, masturbation and pornography in the same way. All of these are things that everyone, not just young people, go through. Why would those topics be ok to talk about, and not the topic of homosexuality?!

And again, this is all about our children, our believers, and our parishes and people.

That being said, I will be closing the topic. We are not going to redefine homosexuality in this post. There are enough discussions about this topic that anyone can search the forum for.