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Catholic Persecutions against Copts
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ÃäÇ ÚÖæ ÌÏíÏ ÃßÊÈ ãä ÅíØÇáíÇ . ßäÊ ÃæÏ Ãä ÃßÊÈ ãÞÇáÉ ÕÛíÑÉ Úä ÇáÌÑÇÆã ÇáÊí ÇÑÊßÈÊåÇ ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáßÇËæáíßíÉ Ýí ÍÞ ÇáÃÞÈÇØ Ýí ãÕÑ Ýí ÇáãÇÖí æÇáÚáÇÞÇÊ ÇáßÇËæáíßíÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ ÇáÍÇáíÉ . ÃÚÊÞÏ Ãä ãËá åÐå ÇáÊÃãáÇÊ ÖÑæÑíÉ ÌÏÇ Ýí åÐÇ ÇáæÞÊ ÈÇáÐÇÊ æÞÏ ÃÕÈÍ ÇáãÓáãæä Ýí Úíæä ÇáÅÚáÇã ÃÓæà ÃäÇÓ Ýí ÇáÚÇáã ßáå æåã ÇáæÍíÏæä ÇáÐíä íÓíÆæä Åáì ÇáãÓíÍííä Ýí ÇáÈáÇÏ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ . æáßä ãä íÐßÑ Ãæ ãä íÚÑÝ ÃÕáÇ ãÓÆæáíÇÊ ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáßÇËæáíßíÉ ÇáßÈÑì ¿ æÃáíÓ ÃÓæà Ãä íßæä ãÓíÍí åæ ÇáÐí íÓíÁ Åáì ÃÎíå ÇáãÓíÍí ¿
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æÃÔßÑ áßã ÌåÏßã ãÓÈÞÇ .
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Comments
ÇÈÇ ÇÓÝ Úáì ÇáÚÑÈì ÇáÊÚÈÇä ÈÊÇÚì. ÇáÓÈÇÈ ÇáÇÓÇÓí Çáì ÎáÉ ÇáãÓíÍíä íÓÊÁÈíáæ ÇáãæÓáíãíÉ Ýì ãÓÑ ÚáÉÔÇä ßÇäæ ãæÊÓæÑíä ÇáãÓáãíä åì ÍÑÑæÇ ÇáãÓíÍíä ãä ÇáÔÚÈ ÇáÑæãäÇíÉ. ÈÚÏ ÍÒíãÊ Ñæã Ýì ãÓÑ ÇáãÓáíãíä ÇÓÊãÑæÇ Ýì ÇíÒÇÁ ÇáãÓíÍíä.
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but can somebody please translate this?
I then replied…..
“Welcome,
I apologize for my terrible Arabic. The only reason that the Christians accepted the Muslims into Egypt is because they were under the impression that they would liberate them from the harsh rule of the roman church that they were undergoing, in actuality, after the defeat of the Romans they continued to treat them harshly.”
There is a line in the Koran, which when roughly translated means “you to your religion, and me to mine”. The Coptic community, upset from the rule they were facing from the Romans, who at the time dominated all sects of Christianity, accepted the Muslims in hopes that when they worked together they would be able to overthrow the Roman occupation of Egypt. Well after the defeat of the Romans, the Muslims didn’t follow the words of their Koran; instead they looked to another part of their Koran, which says that anyone who doesn’t follow the Muslim faith is a “kafir” which means atheist. In attempts to rid the world of Coptic, they cut the tongues of anyone who spoke Coptic. Along with this, Coptics were treated unfairly in many other things. So in actuality we went from the harsh rule of the Romans to the more inhumane rule of Muslims. The treatment has significantly improved today, yet Coptic people still undergo many hardships today. The truth is that it’s not right for any religions to fight among each other. Whether they come from the same religion; or two different religions. All fighting is bad…
ÃíåÇ ÇáÅÎæÉ ÇáÃÚÒÇÁ ¡
ÃäÇ ÚÖæ ÌÏíÏ ÃßÊÈ ãä ÅíØÇáíÇ . ßäÊ ÃæÏ Ãä ÃßÊÈ ãÞÇáÉ ÕÛíÑÉ Úä ÇáÌÑÇÆã ÇáÊí ÇÑÊßÈÊåÇ ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáßÇËæáíßíÉ Ýí ÍÞ ÇáÃÞÈÇØ Ýí ãÕÑ Ýí ÇáãÇÖí æÇáÚáÇÞÇÊ ÇáßÇËæáíßíÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ ÇáÍÇáíÉ . ÃÚÊÞÏ Ãä ãËá åÐå ÇáÊÃãáÇÊ ÖÑæÑíÉ ÌÏÇ Ýí åÐÇ ÇáæÞÊ ÈÇáÐÇÊ æÞÏ ÃÕÈÍ ÇáãÓáãæä Ýí Úíæä ÇáÅÚáÇã ÃÓæà ÃäÇÓ Ýí ÇáÚÇáã ßáå æåã ÇáæÍíÏæä ÇáÐíä íÓíÆæä Åáì ÇáãÓíÍííä Ýí ÇáÈáÇÏ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ . æáßä ãä íÐßÑ Ãæ ãä íÚÑÝ ÃÕáÇ ãÓÆæáíÇÊ ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáßÇËæáíßíÉ ÇáßÈÑì ¿ æÃáíÓ ÃÓæà Ãä íßæä ãÓíÍí åæ ÇáÐí íÓíÁ Åáì ÃÎíå ÇáãÓíÍí ¿
áÐáß ÝÃÑÌæ ãä ÇáÅÎæÉ ÇáßÑÇã ÊÒæíÏí ÈãÚáæãÇÊ æãÑÇÌÚ ÊÇÑíÎíÉ ÊÓÇÚÏäí Úáì äÍÖíÑ åÐå ÇáãÞÇáÉ .
æÃÔßÑ áßã ÌåÏßã ãÓÈÞÇ .
æÇáÓáÇã .
Hi mark, good job in translation :). just few things are kinda different but its not that biggie, i will re-write and i hope u wont get offended :).
Dear brothers and sisters:
I am a new member from Italy, and I would like to write an artical about the issues that Catholic church did to the coptic church in egypt in the past years, and also the current relationships between the catholic and coptic churches. I think at this time, thoughts are important where the muslims became the main point of news, tv, newspapers etc etc in the whole world when they are the only people who hurt out christians in the middle east. but who remembers or knows the huge responsibilites of the Catholic church? wouldnt it be worse when one christian hurt another christian?
so plz guys if you can inform me with facts and historical events that can help me
Thank you very much
------------------------------------------------------------------
That was it :).
I hate my grammer in english ufff lol
well just a lil thought about this: Jesus told us to love one another just like he loved us, so if ur coptic or catholic or white or black etc etc really doesnt matter, and if they really hurt the coptics then that wouldnt even be measure to what jesus really went thro, not even a moment.
But its always nice to learn about history. :)
GodBless
Please note that this "basbusa" is most probably a muslim mean person. He posted the same question in exactly the same arabic words in another coptic forum. So be careful in replying because the question is not innocent.
Catholics never hurted copts as muslims did.
In Christ,
Christ_follower
I wanted to tell you something strange. As soon as I read the posting of basbusa, I immediately had the same feeling like you that this is not a Christian but a Muslim who is writing this to put enemity between Catholics and Coptics. He can not be a Coptic nor a Catholic who writes this. Anyway, I think let's not get trapped with this discussion.
Dear basbusa, we love you whatever your background is but let's close this subject and discuss something more useful. The main of this forum is not to put hatery between Christians, but as followers of Jesus we should love each other as He loved us and died for us.
Thank you and pray for me.
KF
Firstly, I'm happy to see brave mark write in arabic.I encourge you to continue learning and all friends should do. You know I prefer to read and sometimes post to this site because I'm english learner and I want to advance my level (:)
secondly, I'd like to say: our church and our gospel teach us to love all people despite their races, colors or their beleives and regardless their history with us or with others. All of us are human beings and God we call him in tasbeha " the lover of mankind".
So, We mustn't hate catholic or muslims but we must love them and if they annoyed us we pray to our Lord to forgive them and enlight their lives.
the last note: Coptic church now attend and encourge ecominical meetings with other churches to reach the unity in the Christ to be one flock for one shepard (John10)
Peace and love from our Lord be with you all
ãÚ ÇáÓáÇãÉ
:)
pease and love from our Lord be with you
just like to say first, thanx for speaking english... im still in the process of learning how to write (i can not understnad the 'te' and 'he' marboota!)
anywayz... lets get back to y this forum was made...
what other religons have been persecuted? just about all of them
jews, copts, catholics, hindus... the line goes on n on...
and u guys shouldnt doubt basbusa from the first place
even if he/she (sry) was muslim... we should show our christian faith and values and accept them and prove to them what has happened no matter what
and u guys, dont forget... we view islam as a very corrupt religon because of what they have done to us and our people in the mother land... but also, don't forget the crusades that took place here
granted, they werent made by copts... but every religon has had it's good and bad influences
basbusa, welcome, and i think i speak on behalf of all of us when i say we apologize for any miscommunication/understandation that has happened here.
but i do have to disagree with something u said no matter how much i respect ur determination to research this topic and share it with us all
i recall once reading a TIME magzine that said on the cover, 'Jews, Christians, and Islam... Same Fathers, y not unite' or something strange like that
now ppl assume that we jews christians n muslims have the same fathers, abraham, etc...
and in a sense we do because... i dunno, someone reply to that plz? lol
k... i was going somewhere with this, but i lost my train of thought
forgive me lol
now we all know that 99.999999% of us hate islam and even muslims with passion.. but as someone said before
'hate the sin, not the sinner'
muslims dont really no any better
no personally speaking, if i was born as a muslim, which i wasnt, i'm a very devote copt! lol, but if i was, i'd most likely be one of those fanatics... becuase i'd think my religon is right and the best one (like i do now)
all we can do is pray for them and love them as christians
clearly, this is the hardest thing God will ever ask of us...
to love our enemies but we MUST do it because it's what he did
after all, WWJD?
thanx once more for the translation
and basbusa, welcome and i think u can change it by editing ur first post... from the beginning
maybe itll work, if not, contact one of the administrators
Any line from the Koran can be contradicted by another. I can argue lines from the Koran as well as I can from the bible, for EVERY line of peace, there is one of hatred and revenge. Like it has been said, hate the sin, not the sinner. The sin is the religion, a religion that believes that you will receive a kingdom in heaven for killing people that are “kafara”; a religion that believes that when you are in heaven you will be given 7 virgins and that when you sleep and wake up their virginity will be restored; A religion that believes that it’s proper to marry four women at once; A religion that advocates terrorism. I pity those who feel Islam is a peaceful religion for they are blind and ignorant; a peaceful religion doesn’t kill people “fih sabil ilah” and expect to be sent to heaven for doing so. So do we hate Muslims? Do we hate those that God has created and loves? Absolutely not, but we DO hate their religion. The religion that if given half a chance; would take over the world.
lol
now... i got a ?
i dont understand where catholics at all persecuted copts
basbusa, can u please elaborate on that
Waaaaaaaay back before there were any schisms in the Christian church around 400 A.D., there was only one Christian religion; it was dominated by Rome. After some time, there was a disagreement between those in charge of Egypt (pope or bishops... I’m not exactly sure what they were called) and thoes in charge in Rome. Due to this selective interpretation of the bible between the person leading Egypt and the head boss, the pope of Rome, this bishop or pope of Egypt was excommunicated. This disagreement was that the person from Egypt couldn’t accept the story of Jesus’ life. Seeing how Jesus was the son of god, he couldn’t comprehend how the son of god could be crucified and die as an ordinary human. Since he was shunned he left and wound up in the area which his now Saudi Arabia. This bishop/pope was actually the founder of Islam, which is why Islam is so similar so Jewish and Christian texts, aside from the things that have been added on since then. He taught his ideas, and it was adapted in that area. Meanwhile Egypt is still under the rule of Rome the catholic church which his treating the people there, how can I say this…., not so nicely. Anyway, the Christian founder of Islam had died but left behind several believers. So back to what is happening in Egypt, the harsh rule continues. (this is the persecution against Copts that basbusa is speaking of…) “Omar ibn al 3as” was one of the followers of Islam that developed from the brewing that took place down in Arabia. At the time, Rome could have easily squished that nation, but didn’t bother because it felt they were worthless. Omar ibn al 3as asked for 5000 soldiers to open the barrier that Rome had put in Egypt. The Copts hearing of the, oh so peaceful (sarcasm) people that were doing to liberate the Christians welcomed the measly 5000 soldiers and aided them greatly in the struggle to overcome the British occupation of Egypt. Assuming that the Muslims would hold fast to their Koran and leave “you to your religion and me to mine” didn’t mind sharing the land. Then it became anything but the liberal place Muslims had made it seem it would become. Contradicting their line of freedom of religion is “al deen 3ind ilah howah il Islam” which translated means “the only religion accepted by god is Islam”. That doesn’t seem too bad… Christians too believe the only religion accepted by god is Christianity. What separates us is, “gihad fih sabil ilah” a line from the Koran, which means “war in the name of god.” Holding fast to the words in their Koran, they put Coptics through even worse conditions then the Romans did. All "in the name of god" of course...
That concludes Mark’s extremely biased but absolutely factual history lesson. I’m here all week people. :D :D
God Bless
-Mark
but i heard a different story... or maybe this actually is a different story:
the pope was in rome, and the bishop was in constaintinople and when rome stopped thriving and constaintinople flourished... the bishop thought 'o, i must be the chosen one and not the pope because im in the thriving city' and so when word got to the pope, he excommunicated the bishop, then the bishop said, u cnt excommunicate me, im the pope and the chosen one.. so i excommunicate u
and thats how we got the roman catholics and the christian orthodox
is that right or are my teachers wrong?
(i learned that in world history and i remember it very well cause that day my teacher pointed out that i was follower of the excommunicated bishop, and i then pointed out that i was the follower of the one who owned the thriving land and kept the faith, hence the term 'orthodox'... i havent talked to him since...) lol
I think there is some confusion about you and the way you talk.
1) Are you a Christian who admires Islam and tries to invent a lot of qualities in it which are not true?
OR
2) Are you a muslim who is ashamed to declare it publicly? So you try to deny it?
Really we do not understand your identity. You better identify yourself so that we can know with whom we are talking.
Even if you are muslim, there is nothing wrong to join our group. We still welcome you and wish you find the truth. It looks like you are in search for it and this site has a lot of good people who can help you if you are honest and sincere. I wish you good search.
Thank you and may God bless you.
KF
Well my friend, as for whether or not you are Muslim; I do not know. What I do know is that your debating tactics are quite childish. No worries, children are “foolish”, so I’ll deal with that accordingly.
[quote author=basbusa link=board=1;threadid=260;start=15#msg1980 date=1085001047]
"They believe he was born form the Virgin Mary through god, but he is not his son and he is not the savior."
1. You replied to this, saying they don't believe in the fact Jesus is the Savior, and not mention a word about what Jews say about us and our Lord. Ok, that's your choice. I just say here that if Muslims should believe in crucifiction (which they don't) and in the fact Jesus is son of God, they wouldn't be Muslims anymore they'd become Christians. That's why people think differently and are called differently;
Perhaps you didn’t read clearly or interpreted it incorrectly; they (meaning Muslims) do NOT believe he is the messiah, he is NOT the savior. The whole Christian religion is founded on the belief that Jesus IS the son of god. So they DO believe he was born, that he was in fact born from a virgin, and that he was crucified. The only divergence is the acceptance of whether or not he was the son of god.
[quote author=basbusa link=board=1;threadid=260;start=15#msg1980 date=1085001047]
2. "Any line from the Koran can be contradicted by another"
2. Any line of any sacred book can be contradicted. That's why there are authorities who establish what interpretation is right and what is wrong explaining the contraddictions as htey were confirmations. Also if you take the Gospel you'll find out someone ("love your neighbour as yourself" and then "hate your parents" mt 10:37, lk 14:26), you'll find more in the Old Testament;
Forgive me; I didn’t know you were a biblical scholar. Please do enlighten me with your several lines from the Old Testament and torah that show contradictions as blatant as accepting a sect of people then attempting genocide on them.
[quote author=basbusa link=board=1;threadid=260;start=15#msg1980 date=1085001047]
3. "you will receive a kingdom in heaven for killing people that are “kafara”, a peaceful religion doesn’t kill people “fih sabil ilah” and expect to be sent to heaven for doing so"
3. Yes you're right, but you miss a point. Muslims are defending themselves because they are under attack: in Palestine (where Christians struggle together with Muslims against Israel), in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Checheniya and now also in the whole West without exception. Muslims are allowed by the Quran to defend themselves and that's what they are doing. Look at Iraq and you'll get an idea. The Quran never says "Kill a kafir without a reason and I'll give you Paradise";
Let’s keep in mind the time frame that we are speaking of. We are not taking into account the current altercations in Palestine and Iraq. The question you addressed was from an age old topic. So let’s stick to that topic. Do you mean to tell me that the Muslims were defending themselves from innocent Coptics who welcomed them? Do you mean to tell me that they were defending themselves by trying to rid the land of Egypt of the Coptic language by cutting the tongues of the Coptic people? PLEASE explain to be the self defense taking place during the slaughtering of thousand of Coptics that were willing to share their land and were suddenly stabbed in the back.
[quote author=basbusa link=board=1;threadid=260;start=15#msg1980 date=1085001047]
4. "a religion that believes that when you are in heaven you will be given 7 virgins
and that when you sleep and wake up their virginity will be restored"
4. Ok, what's bad in that? You know that Islam has been revealed over Bedouins who were fond of sex (who is not?) and verginity (in that time and for maaaaany century on, in the whole West, and among oriental Christians as well, virginity has been a fundamental characteristic the woman had to have);
“Ok, what's bad in that?” what’s bad in that??!?! What’s bad in that?!?! Ohhhhh nothing at all. It’s perfectly okay to think that we are going to heaven to have sexual intercourse with 7 virgins, only to go take a nap and when we wake up they are miraculously virgins again. Incase your too dense, that was sarcasm. If you, a Christian, think there is nothing wrong with the idea that we are only going to heaven to have a lot of sex, you will be in my prayers and may god help you.
[quote author=basbusa link=board=1;threadid=260;start=15#msg1980 date=1085001047]
5. " A religion that believes that it’s proper to marry four women at once"
5. No, it's not really like that. The Quran says it is "legal" to take 4 women but if the man cannot afford to maintain all the four so should marry just one. At that time (Islam has not been revealed yesterday but some centuries ago) many women remained without men because of the numerous wars people had to fight. And it was not like now that Americans fight but not die. At that time people used to die from both the parts. So instead of leaving women alone it was a better solution to give more than one to one man who could protect them and sustain them economically;
Oh the humility!!! These wonderful men, sacrificing their money and lives so that they could support a woman who’s husband has died and left her a widow (again, sarcasm). Do you think these women were unattractive? Did these selfless men take into consideration their appearance or were they simply trying to do the right thing! So if the sole purpose of these multiple marriages were strictly for financial purposes as you say; why did the men have sex with them? Why didn’t they just support them and care for them, while remaining true to their one wife that they loved. I’ll tell you why, because they are sick. Any religion that thinks heaven is a mating ground and that it’s suitable to marry and fornicate with four women at once, is SICK.
[quote author=basbusa link=board=1;threadid=260;start=15#msg1980 date=1085001047]
Finally I think you have put in act your signature: "If you cannot convince them, confuse them"...
Only foolish people will surely be confused. And if you are the educated and enlightened child of god you make yourself out to be, I’m sure we won’t have to worry about anything, right?
-Mark
Ignorance is believing that a man named Jesus didn’t walk the earth some 2000 years ago and was crucified. Without a doubt this is historically correct, whether you're Coptic, Muslim, or atheist.
I really would like you to say and defend your points on heavenly fornication and the selfless actions of the men of that time. Just please try to do so without using foul language and immature behavior.
-Mark
i didnt know this forum was turning into a forum seeing all the fautls in islam and christianity
but while we're on the topic... here we go:
all the things mark has said about history have happened, when, i do not know because i am not good with dates and my history is rusty (u should all know that by now)
1. "They believe he was born form the Virgin Mary through god, but he is not his son and he is not the savior."
1. You replied to this, saying they don't believe in the fact Jesus is the Savior, and not mention a word about what Jews say about us and our Lord. Ok, that's your choice. I just say here that if Muslims should believe in crucifiction (which they don't) and in the fact Jesus is son of God, they wouldn't be Muslims anymore they'd become Christians. That's why people think differently and are called differently;
Okay... Jews do not believe in Jesus or the crucifiction all together seeing that they are still awaiting his coming
On the other hand, Muslims degrade the name of Jesus Christ and believe he is a prophet and not even the Son of God!!!
how can they be called if so?!?!
"O People of the book! Commit no excess in your religon: nor say of God aught but truth, Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than an apostle of God, and His word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His appostles. Say not "Trinity":desist! IT will be better for you. For God is One God. Glory be to Hime: Far exalted is He above having a son." Surah 4:171
SO they don't believe in the Trinity... yet Jesus is an apostle.. hmm
now last time i recalled, Mohammed is an apostle too..right? so y is his word of the sword preffered over Jesus's? and now.. last ? about this verse
if God is too good to have a son... how are we all his children and he our Father?!
"Both the Jews and the Christians sa, "We are sons of God and His beloved."Say: why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are but men of the men He has created." Surah 5:20
I have never, nor ever will, live to see a God that rewards his Son when he sins!
Yes, we are sons of men, but above all, we are the sons of the Lord our God
hence we say: Our Father Who art in heaven...
see also 1 John 3:1-2
So clearly... Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the son of a virgin, of God, and the Father to us ALL.
2. "Any line from the Koran can be contradicted by another"
2. Any line of any sacred book can be contradicted. That's why there are authorities who establish what interpretation is right and what is wrong explaining the contraddictions as htey were confirmations. Also if you take the Gospel you'll find out someone ("love your neighbour as yourself" and then "hate your parents" mt 10:37, lk 14:26), you'll find more in the Old Testament;
#1 No lines in the Bible are contradicted... what i like to call, the ONLY sacred book! and i do not see any authorities interpreting the Koran... as ill prove later
#2 and as for what you have pointed out from the Gospel:
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."
"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me"
Jesus' main point: God should be your priorities! He never tells us to disobey our parents or anything, he says we should love them (its his LAW), but, we should love no other more that God Himself!
#3... as for the Koran contradicting itself... ooo i can point out a gazillion verses! but i won't make this another one of my long term paper essays, lol
The Bible has several writers, all inspired by the Holy Spirit, to say one thing, if you have any doubts, please post tehm as you have posted those versus
THe Koran has one writer... Mohammed, who has 2 different personalities
Mecca, loving and compassionate and spreads the religon through love
now by the time Mohammed reached Medina, he had enough followers and began to spread the word through the sword and became a warrior
"Be patient with what they say, and part from them courteously." surah 73:10
"Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out" Surah 2:191
"There is no compulstion in relgion" Surah 2:256
"Fight and Kill them until there is no persecution and the religon is God's" Surah 2:193
(same Chapter, different versus)
3. "you will receive a kingdom in heaven for killing people that are “kafara”, a peaceful religion doesn’t kill people “fih sabil ilah” and expect to be sent to heaven for doing so"
3. Yes you're right, but you miss a point. Muslims are defending themselves because they are under attack: in Palestine (where Christians struggle together with Muslims against Israel), in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Checheniya and now also in the whole West without exception. Muslims are allowed by the Quran to defend themselves and that's what they are doing. Look at Iraq and you'll get an idea. The Quran never says "Kill a kafir without a reason and I'll give you Paradise";
Muslims are not defending anything, they are taught to fight to spread their religon...
and i dont see any struggle where Christians and Muslims fight together, only then will the Muslims kill the Christians! and btw, i'm looking at Iraq, and i'm not getting ANY ideas
"Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People fo the Book who do not accept the religon of truth (islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior." Surah 9:29
and from what i know about Coptic history, they sure did fulfill that order!
"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips from them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God." Surah 8:13-17
o... i dont see anywhere in the Bible where God or Jesus told us to destroy people who do not believe in him, and that he will take the blame!
"And if ye are slain, or die in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass." Surah 3:157
can someone ring a bell here and help me out
what do our 10 commandments state? (not the sarcasm plz)
4. "a religion that believes that when you are in heaven you will be given 7 virgins and that when you sleep and wake up their virginity will be restored"
4. Ok, what's bad in that? You know that Islam has been revealed over Bedouins who were fond of sex (who is not?) and verginity (in that time and for maaaaany century on, in the whole West, and among oriental Christians as well, virginity has been a fundamental characteristic the woman had to have);
OK, being an american teenage girl who llives in the US, which just so happens to have VERY high numbers of teenage sex and pregnancies... i find PLENTY wrong with that! (just answering ur question) and i believe girls in Italy do too!
And yes, ur right about one thing, among Oriental Christians, Virginity is a definatly a postive on both sides, the woman and man, before marriage
but if your not a virgin and have repented, that is also good because u recognize the sin and life u were leading to and chose God's path.
Now...the definition of paradise:
"As to the righteous, they will be in gardens, and in happines, to them will be said: "eat and dring ye, with profit and health, because of your good deeds." they will recline with ease on thrones of dignity arranged in ranks' and We shall join/marry them to companions wiht beautiful, big and lustrous eyes... and we shall bestow on them, of fruit and meat, anything they desire." Surah 52:17-22
do i c the words 'lust' and 'desire' in there?!
look them up in the bible and see where lust and desire will take to
in fact, ill save u the time and give you a hint... U WONT FIND IT IN HEAVEN OR GO THERE!
5. " A religion that believes that it’s proper to marry four women at once"
5. No, it's not really like that. The Quran says it is "legal" to take 4 women but if the man cannot afford to maintain all the four so should marry just one. At that time (Islam has not been revealed yesterday but some centuries ago) many women remained without men because of the numerous wars people had to fight. And it was not like now that Americans fight but not die. At that time people used to die from both the parts. So instead of leaving women alone it was a better solution to give more than one to one man who could protect them and sustain them economically;
what makes polygamy legal?
just because something was allowed for a certain period, does not make it right today?
and now just to sum this up:
By His words, Jesus set the perfect example. By His life, Jesus was teh perfect example. By his power, Jesus enables us to follow his example.
and as far as signatures go, know the truth, follow the truth, and spread the truth
"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shallmake you free" John 8:32
but my first one got erased because i couldnt get it back ( u should be thankful too... it was longer! lol)
and basbusa... i believe i welcomed u the most wiht my instant messages to u apologizing for the way ur post was treated, u on the other hand were welcomed personally
but as of now, i no longer apologize due to ur defense of the Islamic religon and beliefs
and before you analyze the speck in my eye or mark's eye... mayb u should look at the plank in YOUR own eye... seeing that you do not even know the religon that you are trying so hard to defend!
as stated clearly above^
"coptic organization abroad divert facts and use violent language"
thank you dearly for bringing that up
because as far as i'm concerned, if u are a copt... u have lived up and satisfied that quote GREATLY seeing that the only one using divert facts and violent language here is YOU
but if you are not a copt, do not claim u are and tarnish our name... because that just goes to show that you can't afford to further tarnish ur own religon
"But they did not kill, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was created to resemble him to them". So please study before speaking.
The problem is that you seem worried about the fact muslims don't believe in Jesus' godness although they believe in his profetness (let's say like that) and his verginal birth but you don't have a word to spend about the Jesus' bastardness in which Jews believe. That's really astonishing.
sry, i believe i misunderstood u when u say 'astonishing'
the ignorance of us christians, or of muslims?!
they did not kill him.. but created another to resemble him... sorry, apparantly i wasnt aware that the romans 2000 years ago had already discovered cloning and wax statues!
and another thing that seems quite ignorant that u have expressed is that u have a strong hatred against Jews... y? they have not harmed anyone because God told them to... they at least do not torture our people, and if ur a copt, u'd know what i mean, and they do not degrade the authority and glorification of our beloved Lord and Jesus Christ as the islamic religon has not failed to do!!!
at least the Jews believe in the Torah, which so happens to be a part of the Bible
the Koran on the other hand has well over 100 grammatical errors and is written in the poetic arabic. not only does the Koran have Islamic belifs, but also points out stories of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures (which i can tell u right now is 99.9% WRONG because of the way they switch the certain things) for example, we can all agree that St Mary gave birth in a stable, the Koran says it was under a palm tree!
Many Islams claim that the Bible was altered
1.. we do not see the omnipotent God in the Koran
2. The Koran SAYS that the Bible came before it:
"O ye People of the Book! Believe in what We have now revealed, confirming waht was already with you..." Surah 4:47
3 Nobody knows where the ORIGINAL Koran is! The one we have is Uthman's Koran. Uthman is Mohammeds 3rd caliph (successor) and after Mohammed and toher caliphs died in battle, there were 26 different copies of the Koran (26!!!!) all saying different things
so our buddy Uthman here decided to put them in order by length instead of by time order and then burned all other copies ( I WONER Y!?!)
Meanwhile, God punishes in revelations whoever changes HIS word (notice i didnt say Mohammed's word!) (Revelations22:18-19
and the Jews also in the book of Deuteronomy 4:2
and just to prove that we DID not alter the Bible
there are 5 main copies of the Bible, all of which state the SAME EXACT THING!!!
The Sinaitc, the Alexandrian, the Vatican, Codex Ephraemi, and the Dead See Scrolls and 100 ohter copies
i can go on FOREVER talking about this
but for ur sake and the sake of the reader, i wont
any arguements or opinions, please bring them forth
i like to hear what you have to say, and if any one should be insulted here, i think it would be us seeing that you have corrupted this forum with ur 'violent language'
Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, together, give us the free will and choice, and tells us what to do is RIGHT
He does not contradict his laws or word, like other writers!
and if you'd like me to contact one of the few writers that i know that write for the watanii and have them print what i have written, i will gladly do so
even if it means having a million dollars put on my head
i for one, stand for the word of God
God does not ask us to die for him as the Islamic Allah does... but I, as well as any other Christian, shall do it proudly...
because its not
u were right in what u said and as for us calming down... it may seem that i came across agressive (as i had intended to do so) but i can't help but see someone who claims they are coptic defend the islam and try to point out that problems had at once existed between catholics and coptics
which they had failed to even point out until someone else listed the history, which they attacked furthermore
i'm cool and chilled 8) trust me lol
I think I will stop talking in this ridiculous topic which is nothing more than a waste of time. I think that satan was jealous so he tried to disturb us through this topic by basbousa.
Let's all pray that all people arrive to the only way, truth, and life which is Jesus Christ.
Thank you and pray for me.
KF
Pope John Paul formally apologized to the Coptic Church during his visit to Egypt years ago related to this issue.
For the Pope of the largest Christian religion in the world to humble himself like that this a tribute to how amazing and truly Christian this Holy leader is.
Interesting, if you may remember, after this apology the Muslims wanted a formal apology from the Catholic Pope in regards to the Crusades of which the Pope refused to offer :)
Hence, I think the Pope's move was a great one in mending the gap/tension between the Churches.
and yes, we are all brothers and sisters through Christ... no doubt about that... but before loving one another as brothers and sisters, we love God (as the previous "contradiction" has proven)
Pray for me too!
SMS
On another note, I read a line in the Orthodox Study bible notes that might help this escalation... It says, "We should not slander other people's gods in order to win them over, this is contrary to Christianity".
Granted there are many sensitive points in this thread, but if we step back and focus on the fundamentals we can hopefully move forward.
I know this is an oversimplification, but it does work.