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The Nature of Angels
I was wondering were angels created without the capability of sinning or , "were they created holy, but given free will, just like human beings. They had a period of test, and so those who stayed holy remained in heaven and from the end of that period of test unto eternity, they cannot sin. Those who did not remain holy, such as satan, were cast out and condemned" -H.G. Bishop Moussa
does any1 know any orthodox books or orthodox sources concerning the answer to this question, (because according to our abouna, we asked him this qu. in church and he said that God created them without the ability to sin, but according to Bishop Moussa in his book "youth concerns" the answer is different.
So I was wondering if there are any other sources that answer the question differently
thanks
does any1 know any orthodox books or orthodox sources concerning the answer to this question, (because according to our abouna, we asked him this qu. in church and he said that God created them without the ability to sin, but according to Bishop Moussa in his book "youth concerns" the answer is different.
So I was wondering if there are any other sources that answer the question differently
thanks
Comments
I am sorry but this was written here on Tasbeha.org a long time ago, and no sources were given at the time.
There is a two-fold argument; the fallacy of angels as well as in the present incorruptibility of angels. The Holy Scriptures in accordance to it's many truths require deep searching for hidden treasures of life. For "to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and[a] of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Coll 2) Such was the reason Our Lord spoke in parables, so that we might "seek" the truth.
I.Here is the first of two folds; the error of angels in the pastPleases refer to;
Job 4:18
"If God places no trust in his servants, if he charges his angels with error"
We are told of angels charged with error; angels by, definition, are never perfect to begin with. They are created, although, "to be greater then us", ever perfect. For then they would univocally like God Himself, Who alone is perfect. One clue is given by Job
To corroborate this point refer to;
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Here there is a specific hierarchy of divinity and authority God has placed upon his servants. We start with the highest culmination being the Most High Himself-- the only true servant; Our Lord Jesus--, then we are taken lower to the authority of the angels, and then even lower to the level of man. Thus, the angels are distinct form our nature, but also far from the nature of God.
Our third clue resides in 1 Cor6: 2
"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels?"
A compelling scenario is presented. We are told that the saints will both judge "the world"; the earthly man as well as the "angels"; a group made distinct from the category of man. Yet if the saints, who by nature are "a little lower then the Heavenly beings" (psalm 8:5) are to judge those higher by nature, then these "angels" to be judged must be condemned by God--the provider of all saintliness. Here is a clear depiction of angels who are to be judged in the same manner as men.
As we turn to 2 Peter 2:4 we are told;
"For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment."
Notice, that there is a "casting down to hell" and a "reservation for darkness". It is the same process that encompasses the evil doer on earth. You may recall many references to men "being cast into utter darkness" throughout the scriptures. A fourth clue is explicated. The angels were at one time in a state where they were not in darkness.
Thus, their domain was one where they could have chosen to remain or obtain from God's glory. Some chose Truth, while others chose the fruits of disobedience. Like men, they were given a time of testing; a testing that must have been if angels were indeed "delivered them into chains of darkness".
This further corroborated in Jude 1:6
"And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day"
II. Here is the second of the two-fold belief; angels are presently incorruptible;
Begin with;
1 Timothy 5:21
“I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these”
*Like there are an "elect of men" there are also an elect of angels. However, their elect is defined in the present tense. The number of these angels, who are the "elect", has already been completed. This is not so for the "elect" number yet to be completed for men. (Refer to Rev 6) Thus, we are charged before God and the "elect angels". If their number was still not complete; their time of testing not complete; then how could we be charged by them? Why are they placed in the same category as the Son, and the Father?
Also refer to
Psalm 91:11
"For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways"
Note that the angels are "commanded". There is no mention of their decision to willingly follow or disobey God’s command. The angelic hosts are given a command and are compelled to follow it. I believe their state is so immersed in God’s glory that any thought of doing otherwise is unthinkable. Likewise, when we are able to directly view God’s glory for what it truly is, the thought of disobedience will seem utterly inconceivable.
Finally refer to Luke 20:35;
“But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.”
Our Lord explains to the teachers of the law that men who are resurrected with Christ in glory are “like the angels”. There is no thought of sensuality, corruption or defecation of any form. The angelic hosts concern themselves solely with the spitual, not at all the physical. Now, if we are to attain the status of angels when reach the incorruptible realms of the Heaven, then we must assume that angels are not capable of corrupting the Heeavenly domain.
*For as it talks of the Heavenly Jerusalem in Revelation 21:27 it states; “But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”
Therefore, if angels were capable of corruption, they would by no means be able to enter the “new Jerusalem”. Yet, even they must have been written in the book of life, for only those “written in the Lamb’s Book of Life” will enter God’s Heavenly Kingdom. Thus, the angels although now eternally pure, were once tested in a similar manner to our present test.
I hope this helps,
God bless.
1- Did angels not have the ability to sin (and if they did not, then howcome they did sin, if they were not capable of sinning)
2- If God created everything good, then where did evil come from???? In otherwords, how did Satan think of evil (pride; becoming greater than God), if evil didnt exist, or (did it exist? )?? ( sorry, i know these might be stupid questions and probably i heard the answer to it like a million times, but i forgot.....)
thanks
But i cant help but thinking there must have been some absense of good (ie evil) in the devil, cause if he was created good in the sense that God only creates good, then how did he fall. I never really heard a good answer to this. There must have been some potential of "evil" in these angels in order for them to fall.
1.) God created the angels to have free will; the ability to sin or not to sin. (Refer to my previous post for biblical refrence). He later "re-established" (re-created as we will be when we attain our "glorified bodies") those angels who did not sin. He changed them to be incorruptible. Therfore, at this present moment they can not sin (refer to my previous post for biblical refrence).
2.) Evil was originated from the inability to control one's power. Although God offered Himself as a means of support, Lucifer refuted God's hand . He refuted that support; it was a decision made on the basis of his own free will. It then followed that his own power consumed him and caused him to revolt against God. This is where sin is derived from.
*God created the angels to be glorious in power, but not perferct. If that "glorious" creations chooses to be autonomous from God, it begins to lose control and disobey God's will. The moment any creation chooses to be isolated from God, it opens the pathway for sin to enter.
The question one should really ask next; Is why did God then create his angels to have free will, knowing they would sin?
Ans: The same reason He created us to have free will, knowing that some of us would sin.
I believe the real dillemah at hand is not whether or not God created things to be imperfect; but why we assume that our notion of "perfection" should be the same as God's. How do you define "good"?
I am not discussing your argument about angles, but about sentence that I really do not understand it. I hope that I am wrong and I did not grasp what you want to say.
You said:
I find, according to my limited knowledge, many mistakes:
1- You considered the creation of God as first Our Lord Jesus Christ then angles and lastly man, if this what I understood, then this is a grave mistake and lead the one to fall in the heresy of Arius. Our Lord is one essence with the Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit.
2- God never placed divinity on any creation whether angle or man. We are not gods and never will be and the same for angles
I am hoping that you have good and sound explanation, if not I kindly ask that you remove this paragraph from the record, so later on it will not be a stumbling block .for anyone.
Thank you and no hard feeling.
You are correct , were I to assert that Our LOrd was created, or even that the angelic hosts were comparable to the One God in dividnity, it would most certainly be a heracy. For this very reason I appreciate yourt concern.
I will clarify myslef;
When I talk of divinity or authority; I am speaking of the blessing God establishes on His "servant" Jesus Christ and on His creations; both the angels and men. I refer to Our Lord as a servant; becuase God has taken the form of an afflicted "slave" and served the Father in absolute faithfulness even unto death. Consider what Saint Paul stated in Romans 15:8 "For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth".
Likewise, the angelic hosts serve God day and night, as we too are called to become servants of the Most High. Therfore, we are all servants of the Most High God, Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who Himself, took the form of a servant.
Yet, there is an apprent differnece in the glorification God has appointed to His own Son, in whch He states; "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”and to the glorification God appoints to His angels in comparison with man whom was made "a little lower than the angels" (Psalm 8 ).
This is the difference in the Hierarchy of glorification that God appoints to His Son and His creations.
I hope this clarifies the issu
God bless.
I will soon post the biblical refrencess that corroborate my theory of the origin of evil. Please allow me some time to do so. Thanks and God bless.
Sincerely,
George
Thanks and God bless
Adam and Eve also wanted to be greater than God. As I said, the only sin back then, was envy of the LORD.
Angels do not envy the Lord after they saw what had happened to the Devil. So, there is no longer any sin in Heaven.
Sorry if I'm not clear, or if Im inaccurate :P
*My belief is that angels were changed to be incorruptible. They do not sin at the present moment because their very nature was changed for the better. We ourselves will be changed from the corruptible to the incorruptible glorified body. I agree, however, that the Glory of God is so great that sin becomes unconcievable before His presence.
Adam and Eve fell, but from the Garden of Eden. God's glory was not at that time fully revealed, nor has it ever been to any man. Thus, by the end of time "His glory is revealed" (1 Peter 4:13)
I would like to focus on the microcosms of the issue at hand. Taking this belief a step further, I would like to suggest that the lack of God's presence displaced any hope of self control in the Dark Angel's spirit. The moment Lucifer repudiated God's glory and support, he lost control of his power. Therefore, Lucifer's own power consumed him-- in a desire to control that power without god it ultimately overtook him instead and possessed his heart. Fully corrupted by the frustration to unsuccessfully satisfy his own desires, he grew envious and ultimately, revolted against the Most High.
Here stands my empirical reasoning for this argument;
1.) The spiritual Fathers will say that human nature intrinsically desires the fulfillment of transcendence. Every individual, at one point or another, searches for a high transcendency that pervades the whimsical desires of the heart. It is not surprising that the majority of the world searches for a “god” of, some sort or another, to fulfill their lives. Without God, the human spirit feels voidfull and discontent; it never becomes satisfied. Thus, the spirit becomes a slave to the corruption of the heart and in bondage to sin. For without the Spirit of Christ, love becomes whimsical, lasting only for moments at a time and restrained to our existence on earth.
The angels, also the creation of God, are in need of Christ’s eternal love. They sing "Holy, Holy, Holy”, because of the great Love and beneficence of Our Lord. Without God's benevolent Nature, the angels can not have love and ultimately lose control of themselves and inherit a false perspective of their own glory. I do not believe that if Lucifer and his angels knew they were inevitably going to fall against God’s great power that they would have chosen to battle against the Arch Angel Michael and the heavenly hosts.
Satan must earnestly have believed that he could defeat God and overtake His throne. It was an erroneous perspective brought about by the lack of humility and love. Thus in 1 Corinthians 8:1 it states; "Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies". We ourselves our warned that in "being puffed up with pride” we may "fall into the same condemnation as the devil". (Timothy 3:6) Notice that in both verses the same refrence of being "puffed up" is used. There was simply no "edification" for Lucifer to adopt a logical vantage point from--he therefore became puffed up with his own power. He deceived, first off all creations, himself.
2.) Now refer to John 8:44
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."
The last sentence talks of the false tongue that encompasses the Evil One. Note, that Satan is said to "speak from his own resources". Saint John is actually implying that the lying tongue; the desire to deceive is originated from Lucifer himself. Therefore, his evil was not "created" but was the consequential result of not "standing in the truth". The moment the arch angel left God's truth, was the moment his perspective of existence became distorted and his words became mangled from the truth. Without truth, there was nothing left to speak except lies ..., for by God's decree, (And his affirmation of such decree through Jesus Christ's "let your 'yes' be 'yes' and your 'no', 'no'") there can only be the side of truth or the side of deception. There is no “in between”. Lucifer's power was not corroborated by truth and, therefore, his own power deceived his own nature.
In turning to Isaiah 14, the prophet describes definitively the mind of Satan during his corruption;
“ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’ "
This biblical reference is extremely elaborative and precise in terms of its definitive stance in accounting for the fall of Lucifer. Immediately, after the first three lines, the concept of the "heart" is re-affirmed as a faculty of the angelic host; "For you have said in your own heart". Please notice the audacity to which Lucifer attributes hierarchies of glory to himself through a gradual process. These levels of power begin at a reasonably high insistence, with the start of needing to "ascend into heaven". The arch angel then further takes it upon himself to ascend into a throne "above the stars of God". Then, not only does Lucifer strive to dominate Heaven per say, but further seeks to re-establish a new throne for him in the heavenly domain.
Yet, his being does not become satisfied. The process of self-gratification proceeds to achieve even greater glory as he addresses his next desire for "the mount of the congregation". The angel's desire is not only to dominate Heaven and to rule Heaven by his throne, but now to furthermore dominate the congregations of heaven--all the creations of God. The angel has decided to plunder the entire Kingdom, Throne, and all of creation from God. Nevertheless, even then, he is not content. His heart can not contend with all of the glory he has allocated as his own because the angel holds no self control. He insinuates that he must next "ascend above the clouds"--a depiction of a greater power to which he might reach beyond the heavens; beyond God's universe.
The arch angel is, thus, indirectly allotting himself power to create dimensions and universes beyond those God has already created. His desire is to travel beyond the heavens of God by creating new heavens. Finally, even such a desire will not appease his heart. Lucifer strives for the highest form of glory imaginable; to be "like the Most High", Himself. The desire attacks the very culmination of glory and power--it is the desire to become a god, yourself.
It is this culminating and incessant desire to attain greater and greater glory that has led me to theorize Satan's fall as being due to his lack of self-control. His own decision to avoid God's hand; to leave the truth; deceived him, distorted his perspective, and ultimately led to the cataclysmic consummation of his power over his heart. This, in my perspective, is the origin of evil.