Well, This is how it is, these are the diffrences between the Catholic and Coptic Churches:
1.The Concept of Purgatory 2.the belief that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, 3. the primacy of St. Peter 4.The infallibility of the Pope of Rome 5.The immaculate conception of St. Mary 6.The sins can be forgiven through indulgences (selling the forgivness of sins) 7.The acceptance of non-Christians in marriage
Hope that helps NC, but anyways, I think our Churches are very similar when it comes to non-theological parts, also, we are both attacked falsely by the protestant church.
How are you? Well, they are the main diffrences but they surely aren't the only. We also differ in lots of traditions. The main diffrences are what makes us not united right now, the little ones aren't that effective.
Hey, I'm also new here, and my friend was the one to introduce me to this, although I am a Coptic. But that isn't gonna make a difference. No matter who or what you are we love you. lolz.
Martin Luther King?? You mean Martin Luther, the former Augustinian priest turned heretic, not the African-American civil rights leader Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.?
As far as current doctrinal differences between Catholic and Orthodox Churches:
Purgatory and Final Theosis have been explained, both Churches agree.
On the Procession of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church has stated that it is meant in an eternal sense, not linear. The Holy Spirit proceeds FROM the Father, THRU the Son into Creation. The Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches do not generally add the filioque to the Creed, but the Western Church does. The theology is the same.
The Primacy of Peter is also established, but how that primacy is exercised is still in debate.
Infallibility of the Pope of Rome is still in discussion
The Immaculate Conception: The Orthodox and Catholic Church believe Mary was born without sin, full of Grace. The debate is closed.
Sins forgiven thru indulgences. Indulgences never were an issue, only the SELLING. Blessings should never be SOLD.
Non-Christian marriages. The Churches will allow non-Christians to marry Christians, but there will be no Graces, and strongly opposes this practices. Priests will not perform the marriage unless the non-Christian is willing to become Christian. This marriage is not a Sacrament, but a civil ceremony.
Hopefully soon these differences will disappear. I know that the Orthodox Churches no longer have any theological impediments with each other, and the (Oriental) Orthodox Churches and Catholic Churches are nearly in communion. There are circumstances where communion is allowed between the Oriental (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Malankara and Eritrean) and Catholic Church.
quick note: the coptic church definetly does NOT believe in the Virgin Mary's birth without sin... it isn't possible. if she's without sin then she isn't human cuz every child born of man and woman is born with the sin of their father adam... which is why Christ wasn't born with the original sin... cuz He is perfect.. but St. Mary was sanctified by the Spirit if that's what ur trying to say. in order to give birth to God the Logos, she had to be worthy to carry Him... and the only way to do that was to be purged and the only one who can purge is the Spirit... through a unique sort-of baptism reserved only for the Theotokos.. but she def. was born with sin like every other woman. saying that she wasn't denies her complete and undeniable humanity. there is absolutely no dogma or theology of the coptic church that states that she was born without sin.
sorry, I should be more specific...when i say Mary was sinless I meant: that in the West, they use the term "preserved from the stain of original sin," while in the East the terms are "filled with the Grace of the Holy Spirit." Both express how Mary never sinned in her life, nor did she have the sin of Adam, because God sanctified her. About Purgatory and Final Theosis. Both Orthodox and Catholic Churches believe that those who have died can be prayed for, and that saints in heaven can intercede for us. The time/place/cleansing where transition occurs - for example in the Syriac Church we have prayer for our dead relative after 40 day period - is what the West calls "purgatory" and the East calls "Final Theosis".
By the way, I will graduate with my B.A. in Theology in August, and go on to my M.Th. in January. I hope everyone understands I am not making up what I am saying, but this is what I have studied.
Of course priests, bishops, popes, and saints sin. They may be holy people but they're not perfect. Their sins would be the same as ours to a certain extent. They take theirs to a higher level so that things that we consider ok are a sin to them. If they wrong someone, that's a sin, if they have some money on them and someone asks for some money and they've forgetton that they have it and told the person no, later when they discover the money, they get really upset and consider this a sin. None of this is realted to any real life situation, but I'm just trying to set a basis for what I'm trying to say.
All in all, these holy people DO sin, but not in the way we do.
Michael Toma is awesome that u want to serve the Lord by graduating wiht a B.A in theology but lets be caeful and not get carried away with "ecumenical" good feelings by patting down the differences. Although the purification of souls after death may be similiar in Orthodox and Roman Catholic Doctrines they do differ in their explanation. The Roman catholic version is very legalistic this is why they have "indulgences" to help shorten a soul's stay in purgatory. This understanding is due to the exagerated sense of "divine justice" owed to God for sins ALREADY forgiven in the Sacrament of Confession. I posted the definition for indulgences and its connections with the sacrament in an earlier post in one of the most recent threads. I quoted from the same Roman Catholic catechism you did here.
The Orthodox explanation is different. Our sins are ALREADY forgiven and FORGOTTEN ...no need to be purified of those sins any more. The Cross is more than sufficient ( nothing wrong is sounding a bit "protestant" in today's ecumenical universalistic circumstance) however any spiritual impurities we may still have will be burned away by God's Uncreated Energies (grace,love,mercy) as we come nearer to Him in paradise. So there is no "Offended God" to pacify but a loving God Who's Love is a consuming Fire (Exodus 24:17, Hebrews 12:29)!
Christian unity is the dream of every Christ loving believer! However we must not let good intentions and "politcally correct agreements" confuse nor dilute the Faith that our Lord gave to us through His Holy Apostles and the Righteous Martyrs died for. Lets not confuse externals with essence. We can dialogue but never compromise the Orthodox Faith if we believe it to be True. Lets pray for Orthodox unity and healing first.
That explanation of the fire of God's energy is also defined as purgatory in Catholicism. The legalism is peculiar to the Latin Church, because of its history during the Middle Ages, but it still fits in the dogma of purgatory. Thanks.
There are two approaches that can be used to start "ecumenical" dialogue. One is to start with differences and work backward, the other is to compare similarities and work forward. The backward approach hasn't been very effective either within Christianity or with other religions. I prefer to start with similarities, because all Truth is from God. As far as purgatory, there is the percieved definition and what is actually definitive. We must accept that the legalistic definitions are only understood by the Latin Church, through Latin eyes. The Eastern Catholic Churches accept purgatory, but not through Western eyes. They look to Patristic and Eastern explanations. Lets not go backward to disunion when the Churches have already made major steps forward toward unity. I don't think Orthodox unity and unity with the Catholic Church are separate issues, the politics and divisiveness of the past has been forgiven and hopefully forgotten "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." That goes for the attacks on the Orthodox by Catholics in the Crusades, and for attacks on Catholics by Orthodox in Russia, attacks on Eastern Catholics by Orthodox, and mutually un-Christian behavior. The Bishops of both Orthodox and Catholic Churches have declared that the children of mixed marriages can recieve in both Churches, so in a few generations we will have unity, whether by word or blood. Let's strive for unity through the Lord Jesus Christ, with His Holy and Blessed Mother and His Holy Apostles and Saints.
Vas, Coptic Pharoah is right. If you look at nettledcrown's profile, you'll see he hasn't been active for years. Plus, he's already stated that he's catholic.
By opening old topics, i hope it makes those who came 4 years ago when they opened their topic, wanted and important. We have to ask about them, why they don't come anymore? U know? Iftakadaat...
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=293.msg89765#msg89765 date=1212936356] By opening old topics, i hope it makes those who came 4 years ago when they opened their topic, wanted and important. We have to ask about them, why they don't come anymore? U know? Iftakadaat...
I was thinking of doing that. If they have an email on their profile we can email them.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=293.msg89765#msg89765 date=1212936356] By opening old topics, i hope it makes those who came 4 years ago when they opened their topic, wanted and important. We have to ask about them, why they don't come anymore? U know? Iftakadaat...
Sunday school teacher on the web?? the fench keep on surprising me...lol
Comments
Hey NC,
Well, This is how it is, these are the diffrences between the Catholic and Coptic Churches:
1.The Concept of Purgatory
2.the belief that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, 3.
the primacy of St. Peter
4.The infallibility of the Pope of Rome
5.The immaculate conception of St. Mary
6.The sins can be forgiven through indulgences (selling the forgivness of sins)
7.The acceptance of non-Christians in marriage
Hope that helps NC, but anyways, I think our Churches are very similar when it comes to non-theological parts, also, we are both attacked falsely by the protestant church.
Defender
ARE THOSE THE ONLY DIFFERENCES?
How are you? Well, they are the main diffrences but they surely aren't the only. We also differ in lots of traditions. The main diffrences are what makes us not united right now, the little ones aren't that effective.
Defender
Purgatory and Final Theosis have been explained, both Churches agree.
On the Procession of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church has stated that it is meant in an eternal sense, not linear. The Holy Spirit proceeds FROM the Father, THRU the Son into Creation. The Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches do not generally add the filioque to the Creed, but the Western Church does. The theology is the same.
The Primacy of Peter is also established, but how that primacy is exercised is still in debate.
Infallibility of the Pope of Rome is still in discussion
The Immaculate Conception: The Orthodox and Catholic Church believe Mary was born without sin, full of Grace. The debate is closed.
Sins forgiven thru indulgences. Indulgences never were an issue, only the SELLING. Blessings should never be SOLD.
Non-Christian marriages. The Churches will allow non-Christians to marry Christians, but there will be no Graces, and strongly opposes this practices. Priests will not perform the marriage unless the non-Christian is willing to become Christian. This marriage is not a Sacrament, but a civil ceremony.
Hopefully soon these differences will disappear. I know that the Orthodox Churches no longer have any theological impediments with each other, and the (Oriental) Orthodox Churches and Catholic Churches are nearly in communion. There are circumstances where communion is allowed between the Oriental (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Malankara and Eritrean) and Catholic Church.
I wanna clear something up,
What do u mean Mary is without sin? Do you mean she is sinless? And if so how could that be?
Also, we do not believe in Purgatory at all.
Michael
the coptic church definetly does NOT believe in the Virgin Mary's birth without sin... it isn't possible. if she's without sin then she isn't human cuz every child born of man and woman is born with the sin of their father adam... which is why Christ wasn't born with the original sin... cuz He is perfect.. but St. Mary was sanctified by the Spirit if that's what ur trying to say. in order to give birth to God the Logos, she had to be worthy to carry Him... and the only way to do that was to be purged and the only one who can purge is the Spirit... through a unique sort-of baptism reserved only for the Theotokos.. but she def. was born with sin like every other woman. saying that she wasn't denies her complete and undeniable humanity. there is absolutely no dogma or theology of the coptic church that states that she was born without sin.
Defender
About Purgatory and Final Theosis. Both Orthodox and Catholic Churches believe that those who have died can be prayed for, and that saints in heaven can intercede for us. The time/place/cleansing where transition occurs - for example in the Syriac Church we have prayer for our dead relative after 40 day period - is what the West calls "purgatory" and the East calls "Final Theosis".
By the way, I will graduate with my B.A. in Theology in August, and go on to my M.Th. in January. I hope everyone understands I am not making up what I am saying, but this is what I have studied.
Defender
All in all, these holy people DO sin, but not in the way we do.
Hope that was in any way helpful. ;) :) ;D
sleepy
Defender
sleepy
Michael Toma is awesome that u want to serve the Lord by graduating wiht a B.A in theology but lets be caeful and not get carried away with "ecumenical" good feelings by patting down the differences. Although the purification of souls after death may be similiar in Orthodox and Roman Catholic Doctrines they do differ in their explanation. The Roman catholic version is very legalistic this is why they have "indulgences" to help shorten a soul's stay in purgatory. This understanding is due to the exagerated sense of "divine justice" owed to God for sins ALREADY forgiven in the Sacrament of Confession. I posted the definition for indulgences and its connections with the sacrament in an earlier post in one of the most recent threads. I quoted from the same Roman Catholic catechism you did here.
The Orthodox explanation is different. Our sins are ALREADY forgiven and FORGOTTEN ...no need to be purified of those sins any more. The Cross is more than sufficient ( nothing wrong is sounding a bit "protestant" in today's ecumenical universalistic circumstance) however any spiritual impurities we may still have will be burned away by God's Uncreated Energies (grace,love,mercy) as we come nearer to Him in paradise. So there is no "Offended God" to pacify but a loving God Who's Love is a consuming Fire (Exodus 24:17, Hebrews 12:29)!
Christian unity is the dream of every Christ loving believer! However we must not let good intentions and "politcally correct agreements" confuse nor dilute the Faith that our Lord gave to us through His Holy Apostles and the Righteous Martyrs died for. Lets not confuse externals with essence. We can dialogue but never compromise the Orthodox Faith if we believe it to be True. Lets pray for Orthodox unity and healing first.
Lets not go backward to disunion when the Churches have already made major steps forward toward unity. I don't think Orthodox unity and unity with the Catholic Church are separate issues, the politics and divisiveness of the past has been forgiven and hopefully forgotten "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." That goes for the attacks on the Orthodox by Catholics in the Crusades, and for attacks on Catholics by Orthodox in Russia, attacks on Eastern Catholics by Orthodox, and mutually un-Christian behavior. The Bishops of both Orthodox and Catholic Churches have declared that the children of mixed marriages can recieve in both Churches, so in a few generations we will have unity, whether by word or blood. Let's strive for unity through the Lord Jesus Christ, with His Holy and Blessed Mother and His Holy Apostles and Saints.
I am not a Coptic. I hope that I am not hated.
Are u protestant?
PK
By opening old topics, i hope it makes those who came 4 years ago when they opened their topic, wanted and important. We have to ask about them, why they don't come anymore? U know? Iftakadaat...
I was thinking of doing that. If they have an email on their profile we can email them.
By opening old topics, i hope it makes those who came 4 years ago when they opened their topic, wanted and important. We have to ask about them, why they don't come anymore? U know? Iftakadaat...
Sunday school teacher on the web?? the fench keep on surprising me...lol