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Guys do you think that Ibrahim ayad knows every single lahn in the church??
Hey Guys, sorry for being a bit silly, but just a question that came into my mind:
Do you guys think that cantor Ibrahim ayad knows every single lahn in the church?? if so, how did he learn all of that?? and how can i get into the habbit of learning all that. I would say that I know heaps of alhan, but i want to grow in learning to know everything.
Do you guys think that cantor Ibrahim ayad knows every single lahn in the church?? if so, how did he learn all of that?? and how can i get into the habbit of learning all that. I would say that I know heaps of alhan, but i want to grow in learning to know everything.
Comments
Hey Guys, sorry for being a bit silly, but just a question that came into my mind:
Do you guys think that cantor Ibrahim ayad knows every single lahn in the church?? if so, how did he learn all of that?? and how can i get into the habbit of learning all that. I would say that I know heaps of alhan, but i want to grow in learning to know everything.
NO ONE in our coptic church knows all hymns. Ibrahim Ayad doesn't. the whole idea of Moallem Ibrahim Ayad is how he became the pope's decaon.
i wish i can know 1/100 of what he knows and i'll be happy :D
Hey Mina, well I'm not 100% that Ibrahim ayad knows every single hymn in the church, simply coz from the time of the apolostoles till now, lots of hymns were vanished, but what i know from my personal experience is that Master Cantor Mekhaeel Gergis elbatanoony is the one that knows almost every single lahn and he was the one that taught the hymns that we have now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what's written in the encylopeida of alhan by albair mekhaeel.
welll, muallem Mikhael news the most but not all. btw, Albair Mikhael is not a good source. and please don't ask why he's just not.
Some hymns are just lost, and i doubt if new tapes will be discovered or something. The only thing that could be done is "tarkeeb" on already existing tunes, but i doubt if that will happen.
As for muallim Michael the great, he's is the source of almost all our hymns in modern times, and he's the one who thaught all well known old cantors like Farag, Faheem, Sadik etc etc, who in their turn thaught hymns to the younger cantors like Ibrahim Ayad, Gad Louis etc.
I think Albair has done an excellent job to revive some unknown hymns (fa ni tenh, adam abel, piehlog etc), and the thing i'm most greatfull about is that he labored for many years to produce a deacons service book which finally contains so many texts of hymns that were neglicted in other books. Moreover, he does a great job in forming a choir that is a real good example of how hymns should be chanted in church.
His source is as much as possible the original recordings of Muallim Mikhaïl and other cantors (according to the HCOC CD's), so if u think he's not a good source u should at least give arguments how u came to that conclusion.
I dont know Ibrahim Ayad personally, but i do ***ume that he as a teacher at Dydimos (along with other cantors) know all hymns that are known at this moment. They even try to revive certain "lost" or "forgotten" hymns (like the major melismatic hiten and tin anastasis for instance). Actually, i see no reason why he wouldnt know all hymns...the fact that they dont always chant all major hymns at feasts in the cathedral most certainly doesnt mean that Ibrahim Ayad doesnt know the hymn!!!
Some hymns are just lost, and i doubt if new tapes will be discovered or something. The only thing that could be done is "tarkeeb" on already existing tunes, but i doubt if that will happen.
As for muallim Michael the great, he's is the source of almost all our hymns in modern times, and he's the one who thaught all well known old cantors like Farag, Faheem, Sadik etc etc, who in their turn thaught hymns to the younger cantors like Ibrahim Ayad, Gad Louis etc.
I think Albair has done an excellent job to revive some unknown hymns (fa ni tenh, adam abel, piehlog etc), and the thing i'm most greatfull about is that he labored for many years to produce a deacons service book which finally contains so many texts of hymns that were neglicted in other books. Moreover, he does a great job in forming a choir that is a real good example of how hymns should be chanted in church.
His source is as much as possible the original recordings of Muallim Mikhaïl and other cantors (according to the HCOC CD's), so if u think he's not a good source u should at least give arguments how u came to that conclusion.
well i wouldn't be the best one to start the argument but may be WB would.
I'm not here to defend or attack anyone. I just think u cant make a blank statement like "such and such is not a good source" without even saying why.
so please ignore.
I am sure he knows most of the hymns of the church that we use today and maybe the ones we don't use because they have been lost. but from what i have heard (correct me if i am wrong) but he actually went to a school for deacons and thats how he became the popes deacon. thats his job. he doesn't go to work or something besides church. he gets paid for being a deacon just like the priests get paid for being preists. so he has the time to learn and always practicing the hymns. so i am sure he knows a lot of them even some that are lost
jydeacon,
that's what all muallemin do. they are only dedicated for there church. also about Ibrahim knowing hymns, if the hymns are lost, how he knows them????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) ::) ::) ::)
they could be lost hymns that the church doesn't use but could be aware of them and know how they go.
than it just means that we just don't have time to say them but not lost. lost is just a big word in our church. like for example, you know the hymn eshob anshan the intro of the watos theotokeias, its tune was lost. also you have the litrugy of St. Cyril is in fact lost.
how is its tune lost? was it a different tune than we use today? yeah i would say the liturgy of St. Cyril is lost and Gregory is starting to get lost too. we don't use it as much as we used to. even on Resurection and Christmas we don't use them any more because the congregation complains that church becomes too long for them ::)
well you knwo how there is a way for leebon, there must be one for this intro to. this is according to the psalmody of the Sorian Monastery.
you can't say that st. Gregory's is being lost. there is recordings of it. tons of sources of all of it's tunes. fully recorded by HICS, Wagdi Bishra, and Muallem Mikhael if iam not mistaken.
like i said before, the word lost doesn't not chanted or prayed. but it means that you have the text (most of the time) and you don't have the tune by any means. it was never recorded, no one on this earth knows about it. this what the word lost mean. for example there is some hymns that are being revealed. for example did you ever hear about the festive litany of the departers. i didn't hear it personally but i knwo some one who just got a veryvery rare recording of it.
well then how is st. cyril's liturgy lost we have a recording of it here on tasbeha and i have listened to it many times.
ok there is a lot fo conterversty about that until this day. there is only 2 hymns that are recovered from the litrugy. and these are recorded by trustable sources. now the one that is here ont tasbeha.org is recorded by Fr. Mettias which is not really a source according to what i have learned. he is just not the trustable source that should be trusted in these stuff. there is a big long topic about this on coptichymns.net that you can check.
the litrugy mostly "etrakeeb" on St. Gregory's litrugy. to make it clear to you that the whole idea of the litrugy is wrong, one simple way to explain this is:-- if you have a a suit that have pants that have a broken zipper. you can easliy get a new zipper and fix it, rit.....but if you have a zipper, can you get a whole suit and some how attached to the zipper....of course not.
same here. there is only two hymns that are still left from the old original litrugy. now can you go get the text and make a whole litrugy upon on those two hymns. noooo....
i know the liturgy is famous because abouna's voice is nice. i personaly love his voice. but it's not always according to the voice.
alright i see now i will have to check that article out do you happen to have the link for it i would appreciate it. thanks in advance.
this is a Study in the Litrugy:
Study in the Tunes of the Liturgy of Saint Cyril
[quote author=jydeacon link=board=2;threadid=4777;start=0#msg65259 date=1166733119]
how is its tune lost? was it a different tune than we use today? yeah i would say the liturgy of St. Cyril is lost and Gregory is starting to get lost too. we don't use it as much as we used to. even on Resurection and Christmas we don't use them any more because the congregation complains that church becomes too long for them ::)
well you knwo how there is a way for leebon, there must be one for this intro to. this is according to the psalmody of the Sorian Monastery.
you can't say that st. Gregory's is being lost. there is recordings of it. tons of sources of all of it's tunes. fully recorded by HICS, Wagdi Bishra, and Muallem Mikhael if iam not mistaken.
like i said before, the word lost doesn't not chanted or prayed. but it means that you have the text (most of the time) and you don't have the tune by any means. it was never recorded, no one on this earth knows about it. this what the word lost mean. for example there is some hymns that are being revealed. for example did you ever hear about the festive litany of the departers. i didn't hear it personally but i knwo some one who just got a veryvery rare recording of it.
that is correct and i kno churches where they pray the saturday liturgy with st. basil and sunday is always gregorian.
thanks
Baladoos
Ok Mina, I did actually learn most of the hymns that i know from Cantor Ibrahim ayad, simply coz i love his voice and i find it easier learning from him, but it seems like you are not convinced that he is a good source, as far as i know, i know that you know loads about hymn, so can you please tell me about who you think as the best source of learning?? it would be great if you can tell me who you think as the best source, and also whether ibrahim ayad is a good source or not
thanks
Baladoos
well personlay i learned a lot of stuff from him mostly because the same reason you included above. also i learned from my church deacons which mostly learned from HICS or Ibrahim Ayad, Muallem Faheem, and Muallem Farag. Now i learn from them and Ibrahim Ayad. but since i am still little kid and i wouldn't wont to sing somthing by myself, i learn from ibrahim ayad and than adjust that to the other older deacons. also tasbeha, i learned all of tasbeha by attending it for 2 years striahgt. and in my church, ur tasbeha is diffrent from others. basicly all i learn goes back to my church deacons which are the best in the US. no one can deny that and that's 1 reason we don't have a set muallem in my church. you can hear us in all the live broadcasting here on tasbeha.org.
Ok Mina, I did actually learn most of the hymns that i know from Cantor Ibrahim ayad, simply coz i love his voice and i find it easier learning from him, but it seems like you are not convinced that he is a good source, as far as i know, i know that you know loads about hymn, so can you please tell me about who you think as the best source of learning?? it would be great if you can tell me who you think as the best source, and also whether ibrahim ayad is a good source or not
thanks
Baladoos
forgot to tell u the trustable sources. ;D.
First comes HICS
than you have muallem Farag
Muallem Sadek,
Muallem Tawfik (very diffrent stuff),
Muallem Faheem (very very diffrent but the only one who recorded the bigest number the hymns)
than you have muallem Ibrahim and Gad.
but i just wanted to say that this order doesn't mean that you should learn from HICS and just stop everyone else from chanting and you go up to the mic and pray by yourself. its batter to learn the same way as your church deacons who you will sing and praise with
look about ur question i used 2 have this question in mind untill i meet Ibrahim Ayad in our church in a liturgy so i asked him 2 write me a word in the kholagy & i asked him this question do u know all the alhan in our church? he looked 2 mw & laughed he answered me i know them all but i revise them like if u ask me 2 tell u a lahn tewel now i will but not perfect be4 weddings i revise the alhan he said when i was small will i was studying the cassete was always working so when i came 2 say them it wasnt hard coz it was familliar 2 my ear be4 the holy week i revise the hymns of the holy week.kyro
Forever,
Coptic Servent
about HICS, i don't think he's in charge, rather Fr. Mettias....but i can be mistaken. but he did teach them before. he recorded the Midnight tasbeha with them and he taght it to them. but now i think he is now more with the Eklerekia, which is diffrent from HICS. and also that's why he actually dresses in black, cuz he's a teachr there.