Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
How was Jesus perfect?
Holler all,
I like to broaden my knowledge through your capabilities..., here is a couple of things why i believe Christianity is wrong..Mind you, im looking this through an Atheist viewpoint.
After Jesus made the above mentioned prayer he was answered by God according to Hebrews 5:7 " Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared". These words clearly show that when Jesus was praying strongly to God, God would grant him his request. The word " heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7) mean that God granted him what he requested. So the above verse shows that when Jesus asked of God to " let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God respond to his prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.
In general, this is a bit size amount of my arguments, i shall post more if i get some good insights...I wish i could get refuted, as i would like to give justice to this major religion. If this is not the right place to post my questions/arguments please let me know!
Peace
I like to broaden my knowledge through your capabilities..., here is a couple of things why i believe Christianity is wrong..Mind you, im looking this through an Atheist viewpoint.
After Jesus made the above mentioned prayer he was answered by God according to Hebrews 5:7 " Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared". These words clearly show that when Jesus was praying strongly to God, God would grant him his request. The word " heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7) mean that God granted him what he requested. So the above verse shows that when Jesus asked of God to " let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God respond to his prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.
In general, this is a bit size amount of my arguments, i shall post more if i get some good insights...I wish i could get refuted, as i would like to give justice to this major religion. If this is not the right place to post my questions/arguments please let me know!
Peace
Comments
This passage you have pasted makes no sense unless your a moslem, perhaps you can give some 1st Century supporting Jesus's flight from death? This is something pasted from a page on islam with no scholarly evidence? You could put us in the direction of some books that back this view?
This is a response from Iqbal:
After Jesus made the above mentioned prayer he was answered by God according to Hebrews 5:7 " Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared". These words clearly show that when Jesus was praying strongly to God, God would grant him his request. The word " heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7) mean that God granted him what he requested. So the above verse shows that when Jesus asked of God to " let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God respond to his prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.
Dear Kryptik,
I find it hard to believe that an atheist would try to undermine the crucifixion of Christ. Are you sure you're not a Muslim? Atheists, usually a) Deny Christ existed or b) affirm Christ existed. Those who choose a) obviously deny the crucifixion also - and this group is the minority - and theyre arguments are weak and not schorlarly at all - most if not all world authorites affirm the eixstence of Christ - whether they be atheist or anything else. Now b) those who affirm Christs existence, generally accpet His existence on the testimony of both Biblical and non-biblical sources - The Bible is a historical text as well as a theological one. In any event, those non-biblical sources which historians rely on to establish the historical Christ, generally acknowledge His crucifixion also - see Josephus, the talmud, Tacitus etc. etc.
So again i ask, are u SURE u r not a Muslim the exceprt which you pasted is from an islamic websites: www.ajnabiz.com/Was_Jesus_Sent_to_be_Crucified.htm, and www.islamland.org/broch1/eb042.htm and johnw.host.sk/articles/bible_christian/ was_jesus_sent_to_be_crucified.htm
Muslims polemics like this generally have a problem context. The scriptural context that affirms that Christ predicted His own crucifixion, and affirmed his voluntary choice to undergo this, for the sake of mankind.
Matthew 20:18 "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"
Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
John 15:3 "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
Also lets not forget this very vital and relevant dialogue between Jesus and Peter:
Matthew 16:21-23 "21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and SUFFER many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be KILLED and on the third day be raised to life. 22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" 23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
As you can see, when Peter tried to DENY that Christ would suffer these things and be killed - Christ REBUKED HIM, and even accused him of being the moutpiece of SATAN - for he did no have in his mind the things of God but the things of men - The Crucifixion altough to Peter at the time seemed like a horrible thing, he did not have in his mind the things of God i.e. that this was Gods plan of redemption for His beloved creation.
So how do we explain Matthew 26:39 in light of this?
Very simply: Lets look at the verse in context.
"My Father, IF it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. YET NOT AS I WILL BUT AS YOU WILL."
In Christs humanity, He obviously did not want to experience such severe suffering, torture, and execution, but It was the divine plan since the beggining, and He knew it, and It was the will of the Father - the divine will. The fact this was the will of God is expressed in the prophetic passage of Isaiah 53:
Isaiah 53: "Yet it was the LORD's WILL to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes [3] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand."
Out of His Love he did this, for it says:
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Christs did not seek to escape the crucifixion: Look at the event of His capture, when Peter tried to stop the soldiers from taking Him, what does Christ say?
Matthew 26:53 - "Do you not think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more that twelve legions of angels? But how then would the SCRIPTURES BE FULFILLED that say it must happen in this way?"
Christ was in complete control of His own life: John 10:18 - "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father".
God bless,
CS
All due respect "CopticSoldier", i think i would know what i believe in...And secondly, this ain't about me but for us as a community to discuss the matter. Right? My paragraph is not denying that Jesus existed. Even Islam accepts that, but the paragraph i copied shows the weakness of Jesus which is supposed to be God. God meaning perfect. I think we should discuss more fundamental issues rather than issues like "clapping in church", "the deal".
The reason i have chosen not to believe in God, is that a book by God should be proned from contradictions, even by the shiftiest man. I hope we can all get a good discussion lacking subjective comments.
Peace
Firstly, let me begin by making it clear that we here welcome all discussion that comes with the motive of learning and love. (That is, a peaceful and fruitful - open minded discussion).
You said, There is no matter to great or too small, so please do not undermine the sincere concerns of our fellow brothers and sisters in their posts about any topic. Secondly, if you have read 'the deal' it is actually about brothers and sisters around the world, united in their love of God, and so, for each other, praying for the sake of one another. This is a sharing of love and is of great benefit to all who will accept it.
Secondly, Coptic Soldier HAS REPLIED DIRECTLY to your question, please read it again and if you have access to a Bible, please open up the verse you are concerned about, and FINISH the verse. Better yet, read the CHAPTER! :)
You seem concerned that Jesus Christ appears weak... Please allow me to reassure you, that the verse you have chosen is actually ONE OF THE GREATEST VERSES WHICH AFFIRMS GOD'S TRUE STRENGTH.
(BTW, Jesus Christ is our Lord, God and Saviour ;) )
How does it show His strength? - Let us begin by remembering that God DOES NOT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. Also, GOD CAN DO ANYTHING... so, Jesus Christ, at EVERY POINT was doing so much OUT OF HIS OWN WILL, His love for us.
Certainly, God is able to grant salvation without any effort and able to create and destroy whatever He pleases BUT the true strength came in that HE showed Love at time of greatest suffering.
I mean look at His Humility! Firstly, God does not need to pray for Himself nor to Himself, so clearly He is Teaching us how we ought to be in times of great difficulty. Secondly, HE is teaching us to TRUST IN GOD'S WILL.
God knows very well that we will experience times in our lives where life is difficult, and we question "WHY?" We do not see the benefit. God is demonstrating FAITH - He is telling us:
Believe that God knows what He is doing for you, and it is the Best. God's will is perfect, even though we may not understand it.
If we trust in Him we will no longer worry about ANY OF OUR PROBLEMS. So Jesus Christ, teaches us to pray that God's will be done. He is clearly reminding us of the Lord's Prayer: "...Thy will be done..." If we truly believe what we pray, then we remember our Lord's own words: "YET NOT AS I WILL BUT AS YOU WILL"
If you are truly here to seek a christian perspective on ANY issues that you have, then we are MORE THAN HAPPY TO HELP YOU, OUR BELOVED KRYPTIK! :)
God Bless! :)
God/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit r one.
Jesus Christ's humanity and divinty were never separated, not even for a twinkle of an eye as we say in the confession of our mass. Jesus would always pray to be an example for a us.
u said this verse
[quote author=Kryptik link=board=1;threadid=635;start=0#msg11700 date=1095405681]
So the above verse shows that when Jesus asked of God to " let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God respond to his prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.[/i]
but if u read on the chapter continues to say "Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, 'O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.'" (Matt. 26:42)
the cup was not taken away from him.
it also says in Luke 22:42-44 "And He was withdrawn from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and prayed, saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground."
This indicate's the human agony of Jesus and the divine help given to him as he contemplates His Crucifixion.
According to HIs divine nature, Jesus knows that He must drink the cup. As man, He wishes the chalice to pass, for it is a mark of humanity to abhor death and struggle against it. He prays [b]if...possible the suffereing be taken from Him. Thus, he gives abudnant proof that HIs flesh is true flesh, without sin.
Our beloved Jesus showed us that if we ever need His help we should call His name, because He always heeds the voice of His precious children. So when He was saying, "let this cup pass from Me" as also in many times of our life..there are difficulties..so many burdens or problems that are just too hard for us to face alone, and we need Him by our sides so that we may have comfort and peace in our hearts
may His will always be done, not our will, as Jesus says, for God knows whats best for each and everyone of us, what we may want or desire might not be the best even if we think it is
Even though, He said, "let this cup pass from Me", yet out of the great love that He has for us, He went and did His Father's will, even though He had done nothing wrong to deserve death, even though we, the sinners, dont deserve Him dying for us. Yet, He walked down the road to Calvary and died for you and me
if you would continue the same chapter and read the next two verses:
"Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" Hebrews 5:8,9
Because of His love, He became a sacrifice for our sins. He suffered for us and hung on the cross for our sakes, He obeyed God even till His last breath. Christ, did die for us, yet as you mentioned "able to save Him from death", He also did save Him from death, and on the third day He rose from the dead..and showed us that He has dominion over death itself! and by His death He abolished all death and gave us eternal life with Him.