well at my Church they have 4 TV screens connected to a computer and they r hung at at 4 points in the Church, where evrybody could see them,, exept for Abouna, and Deacons. now the only people that use the Kholagy r the Deacons, Priest and a couple of others...but the screens make it easier for everybody.. and they don't distract anyone.
Dear jydeacon and Coptic Pharaoh, I would like to share an experience with you which I encountered when I was younger. I once taught myself something which is to take a small New Testament Bible with me to the church and follow through the passages being read in the Bible I have, having prepared today's readings beforehand, and I remember that one of the older deacons advised me not to use it. Of course I didn't debate with him at that time but as I grew learning the rites and traditions of our church, I came to the conclusion that in an ideal world the readings should be listened to, and not be followed through by reading. This is the same that the projector does; it doesn't allow people to listen. I mean I would really like to hear your views on this, and maybe you are better-informed than I am so teach me something. God bless you and pray for us a lot
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6364.msg84160#msg84160 date=1206040355] Dear jydeacon and Coptic Pharaoh, I would like to share an experience with you which I encountered when I was younger. I once taught myself something which is to take a small New Testament Bible with me to the church and follow through the passages being read in the Bible I have, having prepared today's readings beforehand, and I remember that one of the older deacons advised me not to use it. Of course I didn't debate with him at that time but as I grew learning the rites and traditions of our church, I came to the conclusion that in an ideal world the readings should be listened to, and not be followed through by reading. This is the same that the projector does; it doesn't allow people to listen. I mean I would really like to hear your views on this, and maybe you are better-informed than I am so teach me something. God bless you and pray for us a lot
Ya ophadece, not everyone is like you. Poeple normally wouldn't bother to do that. If they do and if it really helps them, than they'll do it anyway even if the readings are there on the projector. ---------
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6364.msg84134#msg84134 date=1206011854] If the icons, which are holy, have been consecrated, and become a 'window into Paradise', when they are covered is that proper and respectful?
Fr. Tadros Yacoub has said that by having a projector screen that have the liturgical texts of the church on it, and it is covering the icons, mostly the apostles, than it is no problem....why, because it's simply the "Works of the apostles" that is shown on there.
I see where you are coming from. I, like you, sometimes do get distracted and it helps when i am just listening to whatever the reader is saying. However, not everyone is like that; and some are willing to bet that having something to follow helps those who are listening. Imagine, if you will, a deacon who is muttering words to himself without really speaking up and mispronounces words that leave the congregation discombobulated. Or how about a deacon who puts the wrong emphasis on some words and cuts off sentences so that they appear to be broken. Needless to say, it does help to have something in front of you while you are hearing the readings. Again, not everyone is the same. Also, it should not hinder those who find it distracting; just look somewhere else or close your eyes and focus on the words.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6364.msg84160#msg84160 date=1206040355] Dear jydeacon and Coptic Pharaoh, I would like to share an experience with you which I encountered when I was younger. I once taught myself something which is to take a small New Testament Bible with me to the church and follow through the passages being read in the Bible I have, having prepared today's readings beforehand, and I remember that one of the older deacons advised me not to use it. Of course I didn't debate with him at that time but as I grew learning the rites and traditions of our church, I came to the conclusion that in an ideal world the readings should be listened to, and not be followed through by reading. This is the same that the projector does; it doesn't allow people to listen. I mean I would really like to hear your views on this, and maybe you are better-informed than I am so teach me something. God bless you and pray for us a lot
You can't generalize like that, a distraction for you may not be a distraction to others. You may be able to focus just by listening but some need visual aids to help them focus on what is being said. i know i never really focus during the reading but when the projector was put up i was able to follow along when the reading was in arabic and actually be able to understand whats going on much better. Amousssa01 is right not all people are audatory learners and some are visual. Why should people be forced into listening something(if they are visual people) when something that can actually aid their them spiritually is available, that to me seems a bit selfish. you can't alienate one group who can benefit just because you may be distracted, if it comes down to that then your eyes should be closed during the service. whats not to say that the little kids moving around aren't a distraction, you can say anything is a distraction for that matter. If even the kholagy to you is a distraction then close your eyes and worry about yourself first. Stop making generalizations that because its a distraction for you, that its a distraction to others.
I am in contact with a considerable number of Roman Catholic priests and in particular diocese they are losing many to retirement and several consolidations of parishes. One of the plans that was developed to fill the void for the given parishioners was to set up screens in different parishes and there would be a "tele-Mass", thereafter Communion Servers would bring out from the tabernacle pre-consecrated Hosts for distribution to the attendants.
While I believe there is no parallel in the Coptic Church as a possibility (I hope to God never), but it illustrates how technology can go too far. My point is relative to playing movies and powerpoint presentations during the Services inclusive of the Pascha. I love to watch the 'Ten Commandments' (Charlton Heston in the title role), but its place is in the home theater not in the sanctuary of the church. The 'Passion of the Christ' in surround sound is amazing, but not during Great Friday Services.
In my own personal regard, I do not like any English in the Liturgy, yet I accept it and do not make any clamor about it because I appreciate its necessity for others. If there has to be a compromise about putting up screens, and that being a decision of the priest in conjunction with the needs of his people, then so be it, but does it have to cover the icons? There has to be a better alternative. I am not generalizing that all churches have this scenario, but specifically the ones that do.
I know there are a lot of techno savy individuals out there, look for a more reasonable solution.
I understand where you are coming from, and thank you for not making a generalization, had someone made one more generalization i would have gotten really upset. I've never heard of a tele-mass but i don't think that its even possible to occur in our church ever. Now of course i agree with you that those should not be playing at anytime during an actual liturgy or service and the fact that you say that occurs upsets me(i'm still skeptical however), I personally don't mind english in the service and i love when its prayed in coptic but thats a different discussion. i think if it comes down to it, i feel its not that big of a deal if it does cover the icons, just for one reason, the focus should not be on those icons anyway but on the sanctuary(i know that the screens take away attention from the sanctuary, but at least the cong is looking in that direction and can look back and forth between them, when using a kholagy you look down the whole time) The fact of the matter is, distractions will come up whether there is a projector or not. its sad but what can you do?
Dear jydeacon, It seems I have upset you to the extent of offending you. Well, as I see it (and I may be wrong) generalisation sometimes is part of conveying one's opinions. Exaggeration sometimes serves in that purpose as well, but of course all should be with logic. I might have gone over the top, and I do understand this, but I just wanted to share my views and what I learnt. I find it very hard, even what AMoussa01 said about Fr. Tadros Yakoub's comment, to believe that the screen shrouding the icons is acceptable. Trust me the church was amazingly very strong without the use any of such luxuries we are using now, while now I don't think these things are even helping the faith at all, if not weakening it. I am sorry that is my view, and like ilovesaintmark said I may be an extremist. In fact, I have yet to see what the service will look like in Matins of Palm Sunday when we stand in front of the icons of the saints and pray to them; what will happen to the projector at that moment? Anyway, these are my personal views, and I hope I haven't offended anybody again. God bless you and pray for us a lot
I was not offended by anything you said. I did not get the gist that anyone was offended by you. As for me, I was being funny by saying that you should not associate with me. It was just my thought that I am indirectly being labeled as the extremist.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6364.msg84244#msg84244 date=1206128005] Dear jydeacon, It seems I have upset you to the extent of offending you. Well, as I see it (and I may be wrong) generalisation sometimes is part of conveying one's opinions. Exaggeration sometimes serves in that purpose as well, but of course all should be with logic. I might have gone over the top, and I do understand this, but I just wanted to share my views and what I learnt. I find it very hard, even what AMoussa01 said about Fr. Tadros Yakoub's comment, to believe that the screen shrouding the icons is acceptable. Trust me the church was amazingly very strong without the use any of such luxuries we are using now, while now I don't think these things are even helping the faith at all, if not weakening it. I am sorry that is my view, and like ilovesaintmark said I may be an extremist. In fact, I have yet to see what the service will look like in Matins of Palm Sunday when we stand in front of the icons of the saints and pray to them; what will happen to the projector at that moment? Anyway, these are my personal views, and I hope I haven't offended anybody again. God bless you and pray for us a lot
With all do respect ophadece, if you are an extremist, you're just one upon yourself and not anyone else. As was said many times before, not everyone is the same. That's why you have the church clergy members, the shepherds who sees what's best for the flock, as for the whole flock not one without the other.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6364.msg84244#msg84244 date=1206128005] In fact, I have yet to see what the service will look like in Matins of Palm Sunday when we stand in front of the icons of the saints and pray to them; what will happen to the projector at that moment?
actually projector would look much difference. most projector systems that are set in church, not just a movable projector, have wireless systems where you move the laptop any where in the church. That's what we did last Wednesday.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6364.msg84030#msg84030 date=1205930158] Dear ilovesaintmark, Thank you for backing up my argument about presentations in the church. I am against it in general and not just in the Holy Week (I hope that you don't start disagreeing now :)) I agree too with minagir; it is not a "sad" week, but rather a deeply spiritual and thought- and repentance-provoking week I guess. May the blessings come to us in it. God bless you all and pray for us a lot
I hope when you say presentations you mean video's because though I'm not from Bergen God Bless Them for this service because it has given many churches access to books they did not have before, it has also unified the congregation on the same page. It started tasbeha in many churches because the words were now available for everyone to see and not just a few deacons. But the is an argument for a different time. ;)
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6364.msg84244#msg84244 date=1206128005] Dear jydeacon, It seems I have upset you to the extent of offending you. Well, as I see it (and I may be wrong) generalisation sometimes is part of conveying one's opinions. Exaggeration sometimes serves in that purpose as well, but of course all should be with logic. I might have gone over the top, and I do understand this, but I just wanted to share my views and what I learnt. I find it very hard, even what AMoussa01 said about Fr. Tadros Yakoub's comment, to believe that the screen shrouding the icons is acceptable. Trust me the church was amazingly very strong without the use any of such luxuries we are using now, while now I don't think these things are even helping the faith at all, if not weakening it. I am sorry that is my view, and like ilovesaintmark said I may be an extremist. In fact, I have yet to see what the service will look like in Matins of Palm Sunday when we stand in front of the icons of the saints and pray to them; what will happen to the projector at that moment? Anyway, these are my personal views, and I hope I haven't offended anybody again. God bless you and pray for us a lot
No no you haven't offended me, i inturn i hope i have not offended you. i just don't like it when people make generalizations without really knowing all the circumstances. I was only trying to say that not everyone will gain as much benefit as you do when you just listen but have to follow along. Forgive me for sounding harsh
Dear ilovesaintmark, You haven't offended me at all, and yes I understood what you said about not associating with you; but I was labelled an extremist even before I noticed your posts (which are constructive and in agreement with mine) on tasbeha.org. I also think you didn't read the link minagir put, which scratched over some of the things we are discussing now. Me being an extremist doesn't have anything to do with you trust me :) Dear minagir, Your point is right; every one has their own principles and beliefs, and you are right thank God I am not someone in authority, or a shepherd or the church would have been a totally different place :). But I am posting my views on this forum as this is what I understand this is what forums are for, isn't it? Dear jydeacon, Not at all. You are my friend (like it or not; and oh, sorry to offend you by saying so :)); you didn't sound harsh, nor did you offend me at all. God bless you all and pray for us a lot
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=6364.msg84257#msg84257 date=1206137844] Dear minagir, Your point is right; every one has their own principles and beliefs, and you are right thank God I am not someone in authority, or a shepherd or the church would have been a totally different place :). But I am posting my views on this forum as this is what I understand this is what forums are for, isn't it?
well of course you have the right to post your opinion, as long as you can back it up..Which you did.
Comments
God Bless
Coptic Pharaoh
So here is the post which ophadece himself started:
What are your views on this?
I would like to share an experience with you which I encountered when I was younger. I once taught myself something which is to take a small New Testament Bible with me to the church and follow through the passages being read in the Bible I have, having prepared today's readings beforehand, and I remember that one of the older deacons advised me not to use it. Of course I didn't debate with him at that time but as I grew learning the rites and traditions of our church, I came to the conclusion that in an ideal world the readings should be listened to, and not be followed through by reading. This is the same that the projector does; it doesn't allow people to listen. I mean I would really like to hear your views on this, and maybe you are better-informed than I am so teach me something.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
Dear jydeacon and Coptic Pharaoh,
I would like to share an experience with you which I encountered when I was younger. I once taught myself something which is to take a small New Testament Bible with me to the church and follow through the passages being read in the Bible I have, having prepared today's readings beforehand, and I remember that one of the older deacons advised me not to use it. Of course I didn't debate with him at that time but as I grew learning the rites and traditions of our church, I came to the conclusion that in an ideal world the readings should be listened to, and not be followed through by reading. This is the same that the projector does; it doesn't allow people to listen. I mean I would really like to hear your views on this, and maybe you are better-informed than I am so teach me something.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
Ya ophadece, not everyone is like you. Poeple normally wouldn't bother to do that. If they do and if it really helps them, than they'll do it anyway even if the readings are there on the projector.
---------
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6364.msg84134#msg84134 date=1206011854]
If the icons, which are holy, have been consecrated, and become a 'window into Paradise', when they are covered is that proper and respectful?
Fr. Tadros Yacoub has said that by having a projector screen that have the liturgical texts of the church on it, and it is covering the icons, mostly the apostles, than it is no problem....why, because it's simply the "Works of the apostles" that is shown on there.
just a quick comment from the other post.
I see where you are coming from. I, like you, sometimes do get distracted and it helps when i am just listening to whatever the reader is saying. However, not everyone is like that; and some are willing to bet that having something to follow helps those who are listening. Imagine, if you will, a deacon who is muttering words to himself without really speaking up and mispronounces words that leave the congregation discombobulated. Or how about a deacon who puts the wrong emphasis on some words and cuts off sentences so that they appear to be broken. Needless to say, it does help to have something in front of you while you are hearing the readings. Again, not everyone is the same. Also, it should not hinder those who find it distracting; just look somewhere else or close your eyes and focus on the words.
GB
Tony
Dear jydeacon and Coptic Pharaoh,
I would like to share an experience with you which I encountered when I was younger. I once taught myself something which is to take a small New Testament Bible with me to the church and follow through the passages being read in the Bible I have, having prepared today's readings beforehand, and I remember that one of the older deacons advised me not to use it. Of course I didn't debate with him at that time but as I grew learning the rites and traditions of our church, I came to the conclusion that in an ideal world the readings should be listened to, and not be followed through by reading. This is the same that the projector does; it doesn't allow people to listen. I mean I would really like to hear your views on this, and maybe you are better-informed than I am so teach me something.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
You can't generalize like that, a distraction for you may not be a distraction to others. You may be able to focus just by listening but some need visual aids to help them focus on what is being said. i know i never really focus during the reading but when the projector was put up i was able to follow along when the reading was in arabic and actually be able to understand whats going on much better. Amousssa01 is right not all people are audatory learners and some are visual. Why should people be forced into listening something(if they are visual people) when something that can actually aid their them spiritually is available, that to me seems a bit selfish. you can't alienate one group who can benefit just because you may be distracted, if it comes down to that then your eyes should be closed during the service. whats not to say that the little kids moving around aren't a distraction, you can say anything is a distraction for that matter. If even the kholagy to you is a distraction then close your eyes and worry about yourself first. Stop making generalizations that because its a distraction for you, that its a distraction to others.
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
I am in contact with a considerable number of Roman Catholic priests and in particular diocese they are losing many to retirement and several consolidations of parishes. One of the plans that was developed to fill the void for the given parishioners was to set up screens in different parishes and there would be a "tele-Mass", thereafter Communion Servers would bring out from the tabernacle pre-consecrated Hosts for distribution to the attendants.
While I believe there is no parallel in the Coptic Church as a possibility (I hope to God never), but it illustrates how technology can go too far. My point is relative to playing movies and powerpoint presentations during the Services inclusive of the Pascha. I love to watch the 'Ten Commandments' (Charlton Heston in the title role), but its place is in the home theater not in the sanctuary of the church. The 'Passion of the Christ' in surround sound is amazing, but not during Great Friday Services.
In my own personal regard, I do not like any English in the Liturgy, yet I accept it and do not make any clamor about it because I appreciate its necessity for others. If there has to be a compromise about putting up screens, and that being a decision of the priest in conjunction with the needs of his people, then so be it, but does it have to cover the icons? There has to be a better alternative. I am not generalizing that all churches have this scenario, but specifically the ones that do.
I know there are a lot of techno savy individuals out there, look for a more reasonable solution.
Satan has a distraction planned at every twist!
It seems I have upset you to the extent of offending you. Well, as I see it (and I may be wrong) generalisation sometimes is part of conveying one's opinions. Exaggeration sometimes serves in that purpose as well, but of course all should be with logic. I might have gone over the top, and I do understand this, but I just wanted to share my views and what I learnt. I find it very hard, even what AMoussa01 said about Fr. Tadros Yakoub's comment, to believe that the screen shrouding the icons is acceptable. Trust me the church was amazingly very strong without the use any of such luxuries we are using now, while now I don't think these things are even helping the faith at all, if not weakening it. I am sorry that is my view, and like ilovesaintmark said I may be an extremist. In fact, I have yet to see what the service will look like in Matins of Palm Sunday when we stand in front of the icons of the saints and pray to them; what will happen to the projector at that moment? Anyway, these are my personal views, and I hope I haven't offended anybody again.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
I was not offended by anything you said. I did not get the gist that anyone was offended by you. As for me, I was being funny by saying that you should not associate with me. It was just my thought that I am indirectly being labeled as the extremist.
Dear jydeacon,
It seems I have upset you to the extent of offending you. Well, as I see it (and I may be wrong) generalisation sometimes is part of conveying one's opinions. Exaggeration sometimes serves in that purpose as well, but of course all should be with logic. I might have gone over the top, and I do understand this, but I just wanted to share my views and what I learnt. I find it very hard, even what AMoussa01 said about Fr. Tadros Yakoub's comment, to believe that the screen shrouding the icons is acceptable. Trust me the church was amazingly very strong without the use any of such luxuries we are using now, while now I don't think these things are even helping the faith at all, if not weakening it. I am sorry that is my view, and like ilovesaintmark said I may be an extremist. In fact, I have yet to see what the service will look like in Matins of Palm Sunday when we stand in front of the icons of the saints and pray to them; what will happen to the projector at that moment? Anyway, these are my personal views, and I hope I haven't offended anybody again.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
With all do respect ophadece, if you are an extremist, you're just one upon yourself and not anyone else. As was said many times before, not everyone is the same. That's why you have the church clergy members, the shepherds who sees what's best for the flock, as for the whole flock not one without the other.
In fact, I have yet to see what the service will look like in Matins of Palm Sunday when we stand in front of the icons of the saints and pray to them; what will happen to the projector at that moment?
actually projector would look much difference. most projector systems that are set in church, not just a movable projector, have wireless systems where you move the laptop any where in the church. That's what we did last Wednesday.
Dear ilovesaintmark,
Thank you for backing up my argument about presentations in the church. I am against it in general and not just in the Holy Week (I hope that you don't start disagreeing now :))
I agree too with minagir; it is not a "sad" week, but rather a deeply spiritual and thought- and repentance-provoking week I guess. May the blessings come to us in it.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
I hope when you say presentations you mean video's because though I'm not from Bergen God Bless Them for this service because it has given many churches access to books they did not have before, it has also unified the congregation on the same page. It started tasbeha in many churches because the words were now available for everyone to see and not just a few deacons. But the is an argument for a different time. ;)
Dear jydeacon,
It seems I have upset you to the extent of offending you. Well, as I see it (and I may be wrong) generalisation sometimes is part of conveying one's opinions. Exaggeration sometimes serves in that purpose as well, but of course all should be with logic. I might have gone over the top, and I do understand this, but I just wanted to share my views and what I learnt. I find it very hard, even what AMoussa01 said about Fr. Tadros Yakoub's comment, to believe that the screen shrouding the icons is acceptable. Trust me the church was amazingly very strong without the use any of such luxuries we are using now, while now I don't think these things are even helping the faith at all, if not weakening it. I am sorry that is my view, and like ilovesaintmark said I may be an extremist. In fact, I have yet to see what the service will look like in Matins of Palm Sunday when we stand in front of the icons of the saints and pray to them; what will happen to the projector at that moment? Anyway, these are my personal views, and I hope I haven't offended anybody again.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
No no you haven't offended me, i inturn i hope i have not offended you. i just don't like it when people make generalizations without really knowing all the circumstances. I was only trying to say that not everyone will gain as much benefit as you do when you just listen but have to follow along. Forgive me for sounding harsh
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
You haven't offended me at all, and yes I understood what you said about not associating with you; but I was labelled an extremist even before I noticed your posts (which are constructive and in agreement with mine) on tasbeha.org. I also think you didn't read the link minagir put, which scratched over some of the things we are discussing now. Me being an extremist doesn't have anything to do with you trust me :)
Dear minagir,
Your point is right; every one has their own principles and beliefs, and you are right thank God I am not someone in authority, or a shepherd or the church would have been a totally different place :). But I am posting my views on this forum as this is what I understand this is what forums are for, isn't it?
Dear jydeacon,
Not at all. You are my friend (like it or not; and oh, sorry to offend you by saying so :)); you didn't sound harsh, nor did you offend me at all.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Dear minagir,
Your point is right; every one has their own principles and beliefs, and you are right thank God I am not someone in authority, or a shepherd or the church would have been a totally different place :). But I am posting my views on this forum as this is what I understand this is what forums are for, isn't it?
well of course you have the right to post your opinion, as long as you can back it up..Which you did.