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Marriage as a result of Fornication

ZoxsasiZoxsasi
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Hello,

I'm just curious about a few issues concerning the Church's view on fornication:

It is well known that the Scriptures teach us that when we engage in sexual intimacy we become 'one flesh' with the other person.

When this is done outside the context of Marriage, (i.e. fornication), should the Christian marry the other person? Is this something the Orthodox Church advises?

Does the Coptic Orthodox Church consider that you are in fact married to a person whom you have fornicated with, and hence suggest for you that you do marry that person? Or - would it view that marrying such a person is a sin because they led you to sin?

Which is it?

Secondly, what should a person do if they were seduced by another person and committed an act of fornication? Should they pursue marriage (if they are both Coptic Orthodox, let's say) with that person and refrain in doing this sin again, or what?

Thanks

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10077.msg123094#msg123094 date=1291212662]
    It is well known that the Scriptures teach us that when we engage in sexual intimacy we become 'one flesh' with the other person.

    They become ONE FLESH through the grace of God of the mystery THROUGH marriage....not the other way around. Meaning that sexual intimacy is not the "act of one flesh" that some might think of. It have nothing to do with it at all.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=10077.msg123101#msg123101 date=1291216017]
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10077.msg123094#msg123094 date=1291212662]
    It is well known that the Scriptures teach us that when we engage in sexual intimacy we become 'one flesh' with the other person.

    They become ONE FLESH through the grace of God of the mystery THROUGH marriage....not the other way around. Meaning that sexual intimacy is not the "act of one flesh" that some might think of. It have nothing to do with it at all.


    So you disagree with the statement:


    ...the Scriptures teach us that when we engage in sexual intimacy we become 'one flesh' with the other person.

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10077.msg123102#msg123102 date=1291216148]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=10077.msg123101#msg123101 date=1291216017]
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10077.msg123094#msg123094 date=1291212662]
    It is well known that the Scriptures teach us that when we engage in sexual intimacy we become 'one flesh' with the other person.

    They become ONE FLESH through the grace of God of the mystery THROUGH marriage....not the other way around. Meaning that sexual intimacy is not the "act of one flesh" that some might think of. It have nothing to do with it at all.


    So you disagree with the statement:


    ...the Scriptures teach us that when we engage in sexual intimacy we become 'one flesh' with the other person.

    i think that's what i just said, right?...(what's weird is i think where is this going)
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    Minagir, I am not sure that is what the scriptures teach.

    1 Corinthians 6:15-16  Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.  What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

    This teaches that when we unite ourselves with another person, even a prostitute, something happens, and we become one with them. I do not believe that this requires that a person marry that person, but to have relations with a person outside of a permanent and committed relationship is to damage yourself and the other person. To become one, and then be torn apart, to become one with someone else, and then be torn apart, is deeply damaging in a spiritual and psychological manner.

    Father Peter
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10077.msg123106#msg123106 date=1291216485]
    Minagir, I am not sure that is what the scriptures teach.

    1 Corinthians 6:15-16  Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.  What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

    This teaches that when we unite ourselves with another person, even a prostitute, something happens, and we become one with them. I do not believe that this requires that a person marry that person, but to have relations with a person outside of a permanent and committed relationship is to damage yourself and the other person. To become one, and then be torn apart, to become one with someone else, and then be torn apart, is deeply damaging in a spiritual and psychological manner.

    Father Peter



    Thank you Fr. Peter.

    I'm glad we have a learned, educated priest here to help us.

    Considering what you have just said, could you kindly answer the points I raised?

    If the Church DOES see that sexual intimacy IS becoming one flesh, then should a Coptic Christian marry the person whom they have sinned with?

    Thanks again
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    I am sorry....i was wrong.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=10077.msg123119#msg123119 date=1291225623]
    I am sorry....i was wrong.


    Its OK. I don't blame you for your response. I even thought the same as you.

    I just read an old thread by chance where Fr. Peter stated that sexual intimacy IS becoming one flesh with the other person. So, it just made me think, if this is the case, would it mean that if you engage in sexual activity outside marriage WITH a Christian person, would the Church insist that you marry them? Would it recommend that you marry them? If both persons are Christians, and have sinned, would that mean they should get married?

    What is the Church's stance on such situations?

  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    I don't believe that the Church has ever required that those who engage in such activities marry. I can find no obvious evidence that this has been the case, even though the Church has been insistent that such behaviour is sin.

    Indeed Roman Christian Law made it illegal for a woman who had been taken away by force and led into such activity to marry the perpetrator.

    It seems to me that in various societies such activity was considered criminal as well as spiritually harmful, and therefore there were civil penalties, especially paying fines, as well as penances including fasting and being excluded from communion for a number of years. I think that the Old Testament describes the ancient Jewish social prescriptions for such cases. In the OT this required that a man marry the woman he had seduced, unless the father did not wish this, in which case he would pay a fine.

    It would seem that this activity is considered harmful, and sinful, but is not considered the same as a marriage nor has the Church seemingly considered it to require marriage of the parties involved - and in the case of rape or abuse this would be punishment for the blameless party. Indeed it is harmful because it takes place outside of the confines of a covenanted relationship - whether Christian or not. It causes long term psychological and spiritual damage, even though this damage may be unseen.

    Father Peter
  • ZanAmrikai
    I agree with Father Peter--just because we join our flesh with another does not mean we should marry.  Should one sin pay for another?  NO.

    But speaking about one flesh, and fornication, and marriage, I want to tell you something as a warning--

    I am older than most of you, I think, and was married for many years.  Before my divorce and certainly in its aftermath, I had a significant crisis of faith.  I got to the place where I could no longer believe at all, and it was a very dark time.  I understand the Dark Night of the Soul, but for me, it lasted a handful of years.  As I was coming out of the heartbreaking pain of the end of my marriage (My ex-husband has always been an agnostic/atheist; I sinned when I married him because I knew it was being unequally yoked.  He was involved in adultery, addiction, abuse and it was a very painful life.)--anyway, as I finally began to come to honest terms with the end of my marriage and accepting it, and letting go of hoping things would change, I began to date.  I made some wonderful men, and I ended up falling in love with one man.  A Syriac Christian whose own faith is more in science than God; in other words, an intellectual who was raised going to mass and educated by Jesuits, but who has never been truly thirsty for God nor felt drawn to know Him.  And we had a physical relationship. 

    What I can tell you after one year of our relationship ending is that the ONE FLESH thing is real and that, even as I had to go through what I went through in order to learn, I did end up very hurt because of giving myself to another person outside the protection and love of a committed relationship.

    It is dangerous to take what is sacred and make it mundane.  Treasure yourself enough to see that the person who truly loves you will never compromise your soul for the sake of physical pleasure.
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