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HH Pope Shenouda and other 'popes'
1.So is HH Pope Shenouda is the Pope of all Orthodox churches?
2. What is the difference between Pope and Patriarch?
3. If I was correct about number 1, if we arent in communion with all but 6 other churches, why is HH their Pope?
4. Why is there only one Pope for the different 'branches'?
While we are talking about the Pope, I just wanted to express my sincere and deep love towards HH Pope Shenouda. He is awesome and I hope God preserves his life for many more years! <3
2. What is the difference between Pope and Patriarch?
3. If I was correct about number 1, if we arent in communion with all but 6 other churches, why is HH their Pope?
4. Why is there only one Pope for the different 'branches'?
While we are talking about the Pope, I just wanted to express my sincere and deep love towards HH Pope Shenouda. He is awesome and I hope God preserves his life for many more years! <3
Comments
2. Pope comes from the Greek word [coptic]papa[/coptic] which means Father. Patriarch comes from the Greek word [coptic]patriar,yc[/coptic] which means pontiff. They mean the same thing. Pope though is more definitive for an area (Alexandria) while patriarch is more definitive as an overseer.
3. (You were incorrect about #1 :P)
4. (Refer to the comment made in Response 3)
Amen! <3
1. Nope...there really isn't one.
2. Pope comes from the Greek word [coptic]papa[/coptic] which means Father. Patriarch comes from the Greek word [coptic]patriar,yc[/coptic] which means pontiff. They mean the same thing. Pope though is more definitive for an area (Alexandria) while patriarch is more definitive as an overseer.
3. (You were incorrect about #1 :P)
4. (Refer to the comment made in Response 3)
Amen! <3
but i was talking with this byzantine orthoodox girl and she said that their pope is Pope Shenouda!
Pope Shenouda is the head of the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Patriarch of Alexandria.
He has no authority over any of the other Orthodox Patriarchates. The Patriarch of Alexandria was for centuries the patriarch also of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, but this was made independent with its own Patriarch in recent decades, as was the Eritrean Orthodox community which became a patriarchal Church itself.
Father Peter
Then she is very confused. :)
Pope Shenouda is the head of the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Patriarch of Alexandria.
He has no authority over any of the other Orthodox Patriarchates. The Patriarch of Alexandria was for centuries the patriarch also of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, but this was made independent with its own Patriarch in recent decades, as was the Eritrean Orthodox community which became a patriarchal Church itself.
Father Peter
woahh. ok hold on. so all my life i was taught that the Orthodox church has one Pope (HH Pope Shenouda) and every other orthodox church has their own patriarch but not a pope. Our Pope is also our Patriarch...and this is all wrong?!
He is not the Pope of any other Orthodox community. He is not a Pope as the Roman Catholic Church understands that term. He is essentially only a senior bishop, THE senior bishop, of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria.
Father Peter
Doesn't your church pray in the 7 short litanies for the other Popes: Abouna Antonios, Mar Igantius Zaka..etc
Nothing?
Doesn't your church pray in the 7 short litanies for the other Popes: Abouna Antonios, Mar Igantius Zaka..etc
actually we dont but they are orthodox patriarchs arent they?.
father peter just said [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10101.msg123494#msg123494 date=1291573772]
Pope Shenouda is only the Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church. Pope means 'father'.
He is not the Pope of any other Orthodox community. He is not a Pope as the Roman Catholic Church understands that term.
Father Peter
i was referring to what he said
Patriarch and Pope are used interchangeably, both refer to the same person.
Pope Shenouda isn't Pope/Patriarch over any other church but ours, Coptic Orthodox (and British Orthodox, for now).
Patriarch and Pope are used interchangeably, both refer to the same person.
ohh!!!well if you said that from the beginning there would not be a problem!! thanks!
the other patriarchs (eg mar ignatius zaka) are not called popes. they are in charge of their churches, like our pope is, but they have a different title.
by the way, please continue to pray for abouna antonios, the eritrean patriarch and many other eritreans, who continue to suffer for their faith as they refuse to take part in corruption and compromise.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10101.msg123490#msg123490 date=1291572711]
He has no authority over any of the other Orthodox Patriarchates. The Patriarch of Alexandria was for centuries the patriarch also of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, but this was made independent with its own Patriarch in recent decades, as was the Eritrean Orthodox community which became a patriarchal Church itself.
Since both Eritrea and DEthiopia belong to the see of st Mark,isnt HH, by extension, their Pope as well? There is no other pope,but one.As far as I know,the Eritrean Orthodox church (minus the current patriarch) look to HH and the coptic church for guidance and support, despite their status. The Patriachs and Bishops of Eritrea have all ( minus the current one) been ordained by HH. Doesnt that mean anything?
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is autocephalous. It is its own Church and is separate, in a jurisdictional sense, from the Coptic Church and the See of Alexandria.
I am sure that Eritrea will continue to exercise a functional autocephaly in the future since Ethiopia does.
The titles of the Patriarch of Alexandria have changed and will continue to change as realities change. The title you listed is already different from the more ancient ones because the recent Popes are well aware that there is no value in listing a jurisdiction over places that do not exist.
The Patriarch of Alexandria WAS the Patriarch of Ethiopia, but this is no longer the case. Pope only means 'father', it should not be used in a jurisdictional sense as in the West.
His full title is...
Pope and Lord Archbishop of the Great City of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy Orthodox and Apostolic Throne of Saint Mark the Evangelist and Holy Apostle that is, in Egypt, Pentapolis, Libya, Nubia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea and all Africa.
But many of those countries have not had an Orthodox Church for centuries or even a thousand years. And most African countries have never had an Orthodox Church at all. Therefore the title is not meant to designate any claim to jurisdiction in the present day beyond those communities who look to His Holiness for leadership. Pope Shenouda is not like Pope Benedict at all. He is Father Shenouda. Papa Shenouda. Abba Shenouda. It is to do with spiritual relationship, not jurisdiction.
Father Peter
I have some questions that confuse me.If it is only a spritual relationship ;at least with the eritrean church; why is the Coptic church not recognizing the current Eritrean Patriarch? Why should it matter that the Eritrean Synod had violated church regulations and laws (Coptic laws) and allowed the installment of a new patriarch, without protesting the depostion of the rightful patriarch (I am not considering the role politics might have played in getting rid of HH abuna antonios). The current Eritrean Synod with its Patriach have approached HH to express their brotherly love and spritual unity,but they were not welcomed. I understand the Eritrean church is much more concerned to achieve recognition from the Coptic church rather than, say, any other church. Also, if i am not mistaken, HH has appointed Bishop Macari or Menkarios from the Coptic Holy Synod (am not sure of the name) to oversee and manage the eritrean churchs in North America.Is that not some sort of juridiction? if the eritrean church is not really independent,but autonomous, does'nt the central power in such system lie with the one that governs? In other words, what is the current role of the COC in the Eritrean Orthodox church?
In the case of Patriarch Antonios, he has been unjustly and illegaly deposed, and so the wider Church is in support of him, and those communities who remain faithful to him. The issue is NOT that the pretender Patriarch has not been consecrated by His Holiness, but that the true Patriarch remains alive and in extreme danger. The Eritrean Synod is not welcomed because it has falsely elected a new Patriarch who therefore has no legitimacy.
In regard to the congregations in North America, and elsewhere, many congregations are unsure what to do and need spiritual support. The Coptic Church is properly placed to offer such support. But it is not a matter of jurisdiction. In an autonomous Church, such as the Eritrean Church probably still notionally is, the Mother Church has no authority over the daughter, but maintains a spiritual connection through the consecration of the Patriarch of the daughter Church. But when there is an extra-ordinary situation then whatever is needed is done.
In the case of the Ethiopian Church, which is autocephalous, the Church is entirely independent in terms of Church structure.
I would expect that when the Eritrean Orthodox Church comes through this present most difficult phase it will also seek to become formally autocephalous. It has essentially claimed to be so, and it is the fact that Patriarch Antonios is still alive which is the cause of the criticism of the compromised Eritrean Synod, not so much that they claim to be autocephalous.
When a community wishes to become autocephalous there is not really any reason for it not to be allowed. The ecclesial structure of the Orthodox Church follows the national, civil structure. And so it is reasonable for the Eritreans, as a national community, to also be a national Church. The shape of the Church was formerly based on the structures of the Roman Empire. Even if we consider that the Eritrean Orthodox Church is autonomous this does not give a Roman Catholic flavour to the title of Pope. It still means Father, rather than Ruler.
Father Peter
i am looking for a link with exact wording, as the liturgy on this website is from an older text that did not have this part.
i want to encourage everyone to pray for the eritrean patriarch (and the church) as they are suffering very much for their faith and not many people know about it.
Lord Have Meeeeeercy.
He falls well within the jurisdictional aspects as being set as overseer to the Eritrean people in the United States, by His Holiness.
There is also Bp Markos (separate form any discussion here), who is also Eritrean, and who also has dual placement in the Coptic and Eritrean Synods.
What offence should a patriarch or pope commit in order to be lawfully removed from Office? So far as I know, he should not commit the sin of adultery/forn or he should not teach heresy. Are these offences valid? To take the example of the eritrean case, under what circumstances could the current illegal patriarch become legal and receives recognition? Does the departure of HH Abune Antonios (God forbid) make him automatically the lawful patriarch or in such event ,should he be removed to make way for the ordination of an entirely new Patriarch?
I was still a little skeptical about what Father Peter said (no offense... i am very stubborn). I looked up oriental orthoodxy and it said this:
"The highest rank in Oriental Orthodoxy is that of His Holiness Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria (Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy
Why do you think Wikipedia is more likely to be accurate than my own experience? I don't mean that in a mean way. But it is a bit like saying, 'I didn't trust my Doctor and when I looked on Wikipedia I saw that he was wrong'.
Just believe me, the Pope is not a jurisdictional title. The Pope is not the highest rank. Orthodoxy doesn't work like that.
Which Syrian, Indian or Armenian bishop do you want me to ask if Pope Shenouda is their boss? Lol! In fact there are elements in the Syrian Church who believe that the Syrian Patriarch should be the boss. Fortunately Orthodoxy knows nothing of Papal Claims. The head of a local community is the bishop. All bishops are essentially equal. The bishops in a region form a Synod, and the bishop of the major city in that region is the president of that Synod. Beyond the Patriarchal Synod Orthodoxy knows no other absolute authority, certainly not His Holiness Pope Shenouda. Even within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate he is the first among those who are essentially equal in their charism. This is why even Popes of Alexandria can be deposed by the Synod of the Patriarchate of Alexandria. Just because the same word is used 'pope', does not mean there is any identity at all in the meaning given to that word. In the context of the Coptic Orthodox Church it means 'Father', and this is what the Church needs more than a tyrant.
Father Peter
Sorry? You are checking up what I say on Wikipedia? :)
Why do you think Wikipedia is more likely to be accurate than my own experience? I don't mean that in a mean way. But it is a bit like saying, 'I didn't trust my Doctor and when I looked on Wikipedia I saw that he was wrong'.
Just believe me, the Pope is not a jurisdictional title. The Pope is not the highest rank. Orthodoxy doesn't work like that.
its not that i dont believe you...its just since i was little that is what we were taught and when i see others on this forum saying the same thing i didnt think that i was wrong. again, when the byzantine orthodox girl said her pope is Pope Shenouda...more evidence. i just doubt that all of us are wrong
I did go and check the Wikipedia article you mentioned and it says...
The title of Pope, which is used by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria (Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church) has the meaning of 'Father' and is not a jurisdictional title. ;)
Lol! You are free to believe what you want but the idea that His Holiness Pope Shenouda is a 'Pope' is not part of our Orthodox teaching at all. Trust me or not.
Father Peter
Lol! I cannot believe that any Byzantine could ever say that her pope is Pope Shenouda. That is just so bizarre and completely wrong on so many levels. :o
I did go and check the Wikipedia article you mentioned and it says...
The title of Pope, which is used by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria (Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church) has the meaning of 'Father' and is not a jurisdictional title. ;)
Lol! You are free to believe what you want but the idea that His Holiness Pope Shenouda is a 'Pope' is not part of our Orthodox teaching at all. Trust me or not.
Father Peter
it's just awesome to see you use "lol" :D
But I do find it very odd that a Byzantine would consider His Holiness their Pope in any sense.
Father Peter
Is the Ethiopian Pope the one in the white?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1269/899595052_1af61bcb45.jpg
Mina, stop copying my posts! This is your second warning. You got one more and you're outtt ;)
Is the Ethiopian Pope the one in the white?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1269/899595052_1af61bcb45.jpg
who is the guy with the purple