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Matthew 7:1-5
Ok, this topic was sparked off by another topic on another board, concerning when it is spiritually correct/desirable/beneficial to attempt to turn someone who is doing wrong back to straight and narrow.
But do members of the clergy have a duty to seek those who have gone astray?
Do all of us have such a duty at certain times?
Will we be judged by God for failing to interfere and potentially save someone from fault when we decided not to act because we didn't think it was any of our business?
What do you think?
Clearly here, it seems that we should put our own house in order first before attempting to solve other people's problems.Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that you be not judged.
2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
But do members of the clergy have a duty to seek those who have gone astray?
Do all of us have such a duty at certain times?
Will we be judged by God for failing to interfere and potentially save someone from fault when we decided not to act because we didn't think it was any of our business?
What do you think?
Comments
It would be possible to say that X is a terrible person - that is to judge.
It would be possible to say that X is in a terrible mess - that is to care.
It only takes a brief skim through the blog in question to see that the person who is writing it has been under a great deal of pressure for many years, and is trying to deal with his inner conflict and turmoil as best he can. It may well be that the way he is handling things is not best for him. Indeed I am convinced of this. But when we are struggling to cope we often do things that are not the best for us. I would say that the blog shows a degree of self-justification, and uses examples of saints in an inappropriate and illogical manner. But when we are messed up this is the sort of thing we do.
We can see all of this, and say all of this, without judging the person concerned, who can remain the subject of prayer and care.
That we have such a responsibility is clear from passages such as...
i. The good Samaritan - who is my neighbour?
ii. James 5:19-20 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him: He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way shall save his soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins.
iii. Jude 1:21-23 Keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto life everlasting. And some indeed reprove, being judged: But others save, pulling them out of the fire. And on others have mercy, in fear, hating also the spotted garment which is carnal.
What matters is how we treat the other person. We know that we will only be forgiven if we forgive others. And we may also consider that if we judge the conduct of others, then we must apply that same measure to ourselves. But we must in any case only consider circumstances and situations, and be always humble because we do not know the heart, nor all the circumstances that lead any person to any behaviour.
We see this blog and can consider it to be unhelpful on the one hand, and to manifest the pain and hurt which a soul is bearing on the other. I do not read it as if it were written by a militant atheist for instance. We might well want to pray for this person. Even send a very brief message of concern saying that it is clear the person is hurting and that prayers are being offered for them. There is no need to try to convince the person of their wrong understanding or to even mention the situation and temptations they are struggling with. It does seem to me that the person has not been given the wisest of advice and that this has perhaps caused even more harm. Often these circumstances require a silent and supportive presence for the person, and not a constant conversation which usually comes across as judgemental. It is the Holy Spirit after all who convicts us of sin, it is not our job.
Father Peter
Can you help us write the email Father?
I bet the opposing team (jydeacon, ilovesaintmark, minagir) are sobbing with tears right now.
What seems to me to be more important is to pray very hard for this man, and see what God will do.
It also seems to me to be necessary for us to consider what the Church has to say to a person who finds themselves facing temptations such as these. It seems to me that the Church needs to go beyond simply saying 'This is wrong'. We all do things we know are wrong. But the Church must be able to offer healing and strength. What has gone wrong for this man? I am not concerned particularly that this one blog will destabilise the Church, I am more concerned about the message that the Church must have for all young people facing enormous social pressures. That is the danger - that we end up like the world around us. Perhaps not engaging in homosexual practices, and perhaps being proud that we do not, but in every other way being no different to all those non-Christians around us.
Am I holy enough to tell this young man that he should not give in to temptation? I am not sure. Perhaps he needs to hear that whatever harmful activity he gives in to nevertheless he is loved?
There are, I think, other places and better ways, to speak about homosexual practice.
Perhaps we all need to be on this young man's side? I think he is the object of the enemy's attention and needs much prayer. He doesn't strike me as an activist but rather as one example, among several Copts I know who don't visit tasbeha anymore and who are rather burnt out.
Sin is sin, but sometimes it is chosen because a person is really messed up.
Maybe others here drink too much, or look at things they shouldn't, or are lazy, or proud, or put on a pretence of being spiritual. We don't know unless someone exhibits disturbed behaviour here or tells us. But things are so messed up for this person that he has given in to temptation as a way of trying to make the conflict go away and he has advertised his pain, perhaps because he still hopes for a resolution.
Let us pray that the Lord will show him a way back. I feel very concerned for him, not least because I think I know him. Indeed we are all responsible for him. Do we have anything else to say other than that homosexual practice is sin? I am sure he has heard that. But has anyone helped him to discover a divine strength in temptation? Have we experienced that in our own lives?
Father Peter
We are all sinners, Father, but should we stop being the Good Samaritan because of the plank in our eyes? What if we worked on helping ourselves WHILE helping others, as opposed to looking past the plank and helping others.
We will pray for him, but wouldn't it be even more rewarding if we could fulfill this verse, as you mentioned:
James 5:19-20 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him: He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way shall save his soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins.
Is what I'm saying wrong?
But prayer does work.
What might be interesting would be to see some short posts from folk which they might send to a Coptic best friend who had revealed that they had given up fighting a sexual sin and considered it just normal behaviour. It's your best friend, and they are clearly confused and upset. What do you say?
I'd emphasise on the point of God's mercy. I would say to them (if they were my best friend) along the lines of:
"If I was you to ask you not to do something because it is harmful to you and upsets me, you'd stop doing it for me because I'm your friend, and because it wasn't any good to you anyway right?
Now imagine if I told you not to touch a hot cooker, or to not drink drive, or to not step onto a live train rail? Its a no-brainer surely?
Both of those are happening here. You are not only clearly damaging yourself meaninglessly, you are making it clear to God that you don't care about him, that his mercy means nothing to you, that his death for you was pointless."
2. We love our Master and we are concerned about all of us as His children.
3. We will be all praying at [this moment on this day], will you join us for prayer at that time.
If you want to contact any of us to talk, we are available at:... .... ....
...Simple, to the point, and no preaching or sermonizing; just fraternity.
How many of us roll our eyes when we receive a sermon from our parents or superiors?
Keep in mind how we would receive a message in this context.
My father always had a simple approach: he gave me the "look" (sincere and stern) with few words. I understood very well how serious he was, and how caring the message was. There was consistency in his character with genuineness. There was no reason on my part to test either axiom or to doubt in his love.
If we want to be loving, we have to show genuine love. Ultimately, we are seeking the "first hand love", the Love of the Father (Who is in the Heavens)--as Fr. Lazarus El-Antoni said so eloquently.
1. We love you as being one of our own and being part of the Church we love.
2. We love our Master and we are concerned about all of us as His children.
3. We will be all praying at [this moment on this day], will you join us for prayer at that time.
If you want to contact any of us to talk, we are available at:... .... ....
...Simple, to the point, and no preaching or sermonizing; just fraternity.
How many of us roll our eyes when we receive a sermon from our parents or superiors?
Keep in mind how we would receive a message in this context.
My father always had a simple approach: he gave me the "look" (sincere and stern) with few words. I understood very well how serious he was, and how caring the message was. There was consistency in his character with genuineness. There was no reason on my part to test either axiom or to doubt in his love.
If we want to be loving, we have to show genuine love. Ultimately, we are seeking the "first hand love", the Love of the Father (Who is in the Heavens)--as Fr. Lazarus El-Antoni said so eloquently.
Excellent post :)
Name the Day and Time, and I'm sure everyone will make time.
I just wrote an outline. I wouldn't say it word for word. I'm sure there are others with more eloquent words.
I'm free just about 24/7 lol, what about you all?
I wasn't planning on convincing him or even converting him back. I just want him to take down that blog, and stop publicizing private things. If he wants to be homosexual, he can do it in his room. If someone wants to smoke, they can do it in their room. No need to expose your bad actions in front of people-- especially to kids. Who knows how many viewers of his blog were young/immature adults?
We are all sinners, Father, but should we stop being the Good Samaritan because of the plank in our eyes? What if we worked on helping ourselves WHILE helping others, as opposed to looking past the plank and helping others.
We will pray for him, but wouldn't it be even more rewarding if we could fulfill this verse, as you mentioned:
James 5:19-20 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him: He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way shall save his soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins.
Is what I'm saying wrong?
Yeah TITL I understand that I am on your team and i totally support the email but what you're saying IS wrong..... Dont tell someone to smoke in their room.... thats a fire hazard....
I wasn't planning on convincing him or even converting him back. I just want him to take down that blog, and stop publicizing private things.
to be honest i don't think many people knew about it until you posted it.