Man's fate

ForeverYours

hey guys, so i was wondering, concerning the nature of man...if we will never be flawless, how will we be considered citizens of Heaven?

The people from the old testament & the new testament didnt really differ in their nature...in both testaments, both Moses and Paul were human, as the nature of man did not change.

also, if all the righteous in the old testament went to Hades because Heaven was off limits, what happened to Enoch and Elijah who never died but ascended to God in chariots? they mustve been in a place other than Hades..

geomike

Wow, this is a very puzzling question, i would like to know the answer to this question also.

yousiegtennis

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TITL

Indeed, none of us are worthy of Eternal Life.

This is my favorite hymn in Kiahk praises:


Your mercy O my God
Is plenteous
Your mercy O my God
Has no boundaries

The drops of rain
Are counted in Your hands
Also the sand of the sea
Is present before Your eyes

How much more are my sins
My trespasses are before You
And all that I have done
Are present before You

The sins of my youth
Remember it not O Lord
Do not contemplate
On my sins O God

For You desire not
The death of sinners
But You are ever pleased
That they return to You

The tax‐collector was chosen
The adulteress You forgave
The thief You remembered
Your mercy is boundless

I am a sinner too
O Lord teach me
To offer repentance
Like the adulteress accept me

Return us O God unto Your salvation
For You are good and gracious
Grant us Your salvation
For you are our Savior

If You judge us in Your uprightness
We shall have no excuse
We await Your compassion
And plead for Your mercy

Your mercy O my God
Is beyond all measure
Your mercy O my God
Is as the countless sand

Your mercy O my God
Is more than the stars in heaven
And the plants of the earth
The mountains and little hills

O King of peace
Grant us Your peace
Confirm Your peace unto us
And forgive us our sins

Disperse the enemies
Of Your Church
Fortify her stronghold
That she may never be shaken

Emmanuel our God
Is now in our midst
With the Glory of His Father
And the Holy Spirit

May He bless us all
And purify our hearts
And heal the sickness
Of our souls and bodies

We worship the Father the Son
And the holy Spirit
Both now and forever
And to the end of ages; Amen.

ForeverYours

Oh wow, that is a really nice part from Khiak that i never noticed. especially how it incorporates the hym of "eporo", thanks TITL.

and yeah, i see. my cousin told me once that the saints achieved this human perfection not so much because of their deeds, but because of their amazing relationship with their God. That even if they fell short of his glory at one point, he always restored them because the connection to Him was clear and like a chord unbroken. also, and correct me if i'm wrong,these saints werent perfect in their deeds (thats not what made them perfect), because you can never be PERFECT in your deeds, indeed they can never be perfect in GOD'S STANDARD, so as to say that because of our sinful nature, we lost that sense of complete and total godly perfection (we were like little gods)

forgive me if i'm wrong

lightening

i think god simply overlooked their sins (that is besides the sacrifices the jews had to make) until Jesus paid for their sins on the cross. This is actually stated in the new testament... a leave it for you to find the quote.
elijah never died so he could not have gone to hades or hell... its very likely he would have straight into the presence of God; lucky him!!  :D 

geomike

Lightening, God does not overlook sins. I believ that u remember the story of Moses and how he was not able to enter Canaan out of punishment from God because he hit the rock twice with his staff when he was commanded to hit only once, he later died on mount Nebo after seeing the promised land. Also Abraham when he lied to Pharoah saying that Sarah was his sister and he didn't say she was also his wife because out of fear. So as you can see God does not overlook sins just because u r pure or u have a very close relationship with Him, as a matter of fact God is stricter with the righteous to keep them righteous and He is less firm with the little in faith to not discourage them.

PFM

lightening

hmm... i agree that the references u made do suggest that God did not overlook seen in the period before Jesus Christ was crucified. and there are many more like these, in the old testament.
but there are also occasions when God did overlook sin. and this is confirmed black-n-white in the Bible. (guess where? ;))

geomike

If you are referring to our Lord's victory over death, then that's a different story. I wouldn't say He "overlooked" sins, but out of His great love he died for us and "FORGAVE" us our sins. And, He did this for everybody not just one person as we were talking about.

lightening

[quote author=geomike link=topic=10344.msg131168#msg131168 date=1298159647]
If you are referring to our Lord's victory over death, then that's a different story. I wouldn't say He "overlooked" sins, but out of His great love he died for us and "FORGAVE" us our sins. And, He did this for everybody not just one person as we were talking about.


nope! i meant ...He overlooked sin!! this is not folklore theology! check it out and see it for yourself.

joeg

[quote author=lightening link=topic=10344.msg131566#msg131566 date=1298626753]
[quote author=geomike link=topic=10344.msg131168#msg131168 date=1298159647]
If you are referring to our Lord's victory over death, then that's a different story. I wouldn't say He "overlooked" sins, but out of His great love he died for us and "FORGAVE" us our sins. And, He did this for everybody not just one person as we were talking about.


nope! i meant ...He overlooked sin!! this is not folklore theology! check it out and see it for yourself.


Do you mind clarifying what you mean here? A reference would be good too.

lightening

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”


Luke 5: 20,21
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive (overlook) sins but God alone?”


luke 7: 47, 48, 49
You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet.  Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven (overlooked)—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”

Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

it is important to note that the quote below refers to all forgiveness before the actual shedding of the blood of Jesus took place, as it is clearly seen in Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

we must recognise that, in God's economy, without shedding of blood there should be no forgiveness. however Jesus forgave (overlooked) the sins of these people (and many others) before he actually shed his blood. this raises the question of 'righteousness of God' for He had overlooked sins before Jesus' blood was shed!! this is why Romans 3:25 comes in to clarify that 'the shedding of His blood' was to demonstrate His righteousness because in His forbearance He had left (some) sins committed beforehand unpunished'. 
thus, God's righteousness is uncompromized!

yousiegtennis

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lightening

in some ways it is true, forgiveness is different than overlooking sin. but this is not essentially different.
if we try to understand what happens in the process of forgiveness we discover that its not much different than overlooking sin.
the bottom line is that righteousness of God demands that sin must be punished.
whenever sin has not been punished, it means that God has overlooked the transgression, as in ...He decided to delay the punishment for an unspecified duration. The sin is not ignored but instead God's due wrath is delayed (forbearance). that is overlooking, not forgiveness! it means just postponing the administration of justice! it means overlooking the sin.

when Jesus was crucified, he took the punishment we deserve on him. but not only our sins (the people who were born after his death and resurection) but also of all those people who lived in the old testament times whom God had not punished for the sins they had committed.

up until the time Jesus shed His blood, the sins of some of the people who lived in the old testament times went unpunished (overlooked)!!
also overlooked are your sins today.
God overlooking your sins AFTER you confess is called forgiveness!!
The fact that God does not smite you for the sins you have committed in ignorance or refuse to confess is called overlooking.

you said... 'If you never confess them, God doesn't "overlook" your sins...no matter how saintly you are.'

you are wrong on this one!!! if God didn't overlook your sins this week, by the time you got to confess them, you would be dead now!!!!

conclusion:
1. forgiveness means that your sins have been paid for through the sacrifice of Jesus and your account with God is clean.
2. overlooking means that your sins have not been paid for and God is not acting according to His justice in punishing you, but He is acting according to His mercy waiting for you to repent.

you seem to have ignored the biblical references i gave... read them carefully since there is no other way of knowing the truth.

Remember: Folklore Theology does not help!!!

 

John_S2000

lightening,

Reading your post above I am afraid your definitions of forbearing, repentance, confession, forgiveness and overlooking got really mixed up, please review.

You're right we're no place for folklore theology here.. otherwise may be we're from Mars.

GBU

lightening

sorry my friend, i could have got it wrong...