PRotestants are christians are they not?? or would you judge them and condemn them to hell?? Catholics are christians are they not?? or will you say that just because they are an apostolic church that maybe theyll get to heaven?? ORthodox are christians are they not or will the greek orthodox not get to heaven ??? Or just us and the five oriental churches??
THE END OF EACH OF THESE RELIGIONS SAYS CHRISTIAN YES OR NO?????????????????????????? im not telling you go be a muslim or a hindu
but ur not obeying gods commandemts! love others!! do we love protestants or no?? are we condemning them?? you know something we talk about them in a horrible way and yet they treat us with much respect!! im not going to dance in church ever. and thats not my culture! but i will clap to praise the name of my LORD AND SAVIOR WHEN HIS HOLY SPIIRT FILLS ME SOO MUCH THAT THE ONLY OUTPOUR I CAN HAVE IS CLAPPING WHEN I WISH I COULD FLYY???? the liturgy should only bewith the cymbals and the tirianto! i agree with that because that is how we have learned to worship but outside the liturgy we must have full out praise!!! Why is it that we are creating separation???
we have orthodox and catholic and protestant and lutheran and this and that!! lets talk about practicing christians TRUE CHRISTIANS not the ones by name!! who are you to tell anyone else how to praise god???? be open minded and have a loving heart and be humble and look at your CHRISTIAN BRETHREN WITH LOVE!!!!!!! accept them as christ would!!! or will you shun them liek the muslims shun their brothers!!
we are CHRISTIAN !!! GOD IS LOVE!!! why do we show hard headedness and islam in our CHRISTIAN FAITH!!! when christ was a simple loving humble being!! FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GOD!!!!!!!! dont dare compare yourself to a church father or another human being!!! Be perfect just as your FATHER in heaven is perfect Matthew 5 42. do u want to be like god ?? or like another person?? OUR ONLY MEDIATOR IS CHRIST!!! BE OF CHRIST!!!!!!!
There are those who feel that this type of praise can replace our old traditions, and this is the issue, at least in my opinion. It's not the church that needs to adapt to the youth, but rather the youth that must adapt to their church. Otherwise every generation is going to be more in tune with their social environment, and the church will have to continue to retune as well to fit the "spiritual" needs of the church? Yes it's ok that there's dancing in some churches...but that's when it's part of their culture. The Orthodox church is Africa I know incorporates dancing into their worship, but this is a big part of their culture, it is not part of ours. Do we see this happening in Egypt? I don't think so. Our church has been founded and survived on the blood and strong doctrine of the church fathers and the martyrs. I don't think anything needs to change now.
I feel that it is important at this juncture to step back for a moment and reflect on the fatherly recommendations that our great Defenders of the Faith presented in the past concerning the topic of musical instruments in worship.
As for the discussion of the words of the "Christian" songs that have made a very prominent display amongst the current youth of our Church... this will require a much longer post, and I am unfortunately away from my computer at the moment. I will say, as a general rule, concerning songs, images, dancing and the like, we should seek to protect Orthodoxy and Orthopraxis at all times, and should be incredibly unwilling to allow anything new into the Church without a very deep investigation as to whether or not these new practices are in accordance with Orthodoxy as a whole.
I wish our eyes were opened to see the beautiful pearls that we have in front of us, as we often search among the filth as swine to discover something of more value in our own eyes. That which we value as nothing will receive no effort in being protected.
Habibi God loves me!! i would like to tell you that I WILL FIGHT FOR MY ORTHODOX CHURCH EVEN MORE THAN YOU MY BROTHER!!!!!!!!
but we have egyptian muslim mentalities!!! we have such close minded minds!! who are we to say that one form of worship is wrong and another is right!!! nothing is wrong with what the church teaches us !! nothing is wrong with the agbeya nothing is wrong with tasbeha i havent missed a single tasbeha in 3 years. i love our church to an extreme extent. and yet the farther you get into it the deeper u see that we hvae many many islamic ideas in it!!! just because of the way we have been abused in egypt by the islamic culture.!!! you know that our culture is the way it is now because of muslims not because of ourselves. The black in funerals is a muslims thing and the wailing and screaming!! on my mothers funeral i WORE A WHITE SUIT!!!! thats not a muslim thing THATS A CHRISTIAN THING!!!!!!! AND BTWWWW SOO UR TELLING MEEEE THAT THE BIBLE SPEAKS TO CERTAIN CULTURES AND NOT TO OTHERS??? EVALUATE WHAT UR SAYING!!! UR SAYING THAT CLAPPING OUR HANDS IS FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE AND NOT FOR OTHERS> THAT THAT VERSE PERTAINS TO PEOPLE IN AFRICA AND NOT IN AMERICA OR EGYPT???? no my brother!!! not at all !! the words of the bible are for everyone!!!!!!!!! CLAP YOUR HANDS OH YOU NATIONS!!!!! not you africans or you this or that!!!! OF ALL NATIONS BUDDYY!!!! ALL NATIONS!!!!!!!!!
How do you know that im not theologically educated??? how would u knoww?? do you believe in the blood of christ??? why dont we sing about that in the church?? its in the bible isnt it?? tell mee how many deacons read the bible more than they study alhan?? tell me how many people sit with god for hours and hours in our church or do they come to church and daze off cuz they dont understand a single word!!!!!! because half the liturgy is in coptic and by the time u get to the english or arabic part theyre sleeping??? WE NEED A REVIVAL AND ITS People who have the same mentality as yours no offense to you habibi!!! but tahts the mentality thats holding the coptic church back!!! im not saying be protestant NO!! im saying let god reign in our hearts!! i will not stand for whats being said against other churches!! these people will be better off than us in the long run because we are pridefull and judgemental and they are not!
My brother TTTL please read the epistle of ephesians and if you open the agbeya YOU ARE ONE BODY AND ONE SPIRIT JUST AS YOU WERE CALLED BY THE ONE HOPE OF YOUR CALLING!!!!!!
you have judged the protestants and condemned them to hell with the muslims who are torturing and killing christians?? HOW IS THAT A CHRISTIAN ACT! i promise you that u will see them at the end of days higher than you and i in the kingdom of heaven!
I can appreciate the passion that you are feeling over this subject, Christ_Rose, but could you please not type so much in all caps? It lessens the impact of what you are trying to say and makes reading somewhat more laborious than it needs to be. You can make your point just as clearly with the bold, underline, and other tags, provided they are used judiciously.
MarenHOos Epchois!! Let us praise the Lord!! lets see how the bible tells us to praise the lord!! the bible says praise the lord all you nations let ALL PEOPLES PRAISE HIM and is SAYs CLAP YOUR HANDS OH YOU NATIONS!!!
the word orthodox means the right way!! and although that is our name many of us dont practice it because by worshipping christ the "not true orthodox way" and condemning others. We must keep our ways and not stray far from our fathers teachings and form the church teachings I AGREE 1000000000000000000000000 percent!! but our youth are dead because of our egyptian muslim hard headedness! our parents are orthodox by name because thye arent interested in the way we live as christians. we here on tasbeha.org are very interested in our church. How many of our youth arent on this site?? how many of those youths parents read the bible?? how many of their parents are christians by name and not by truth?? why do u think that is?? they have been in church longer than us havent they?? its because our church is only about the church and we have forgotten THE FATHER AND THE SON JESUS CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!! who all three should be lviing breathing inside us. Not just in the church!!!!!!! how many of our churches need to be revived!! ]
Let me ask you all a question!! Cantor Ibrahim Ayad does performances does he not?? with instruments does he not?? What about Davis ensemble and George Kerollus?? they do performances with music do they not?? WHAT ABOUT BOULOS MALAK who with all due respect sings hymns and taraneem sometimes with more playing and jumping than i would think to be at a sweet sixtteen?? and yet who tells them no? does the pope say no? i firmly believe these cds and songs have gotten me closer to god?? you dont think so? why dont u listen to a song that says I CAN SING OF YOUR LOVE FOREVER!!! or that HIS BLOOD WILL COVER US!! or that HIS LOVE IS OVER AND UNDERNEATH!! or that HES BROKEN ALL OVER US!! why not???? IS THAT UNORTHODOX TO YOUUUUUUUUUU????
Christ_rose, with all due respect to Father Sorial's joke, I was taught that only the Orthodox will go to Heaven. I am not God and I do not make such judgments, but the Bible is clear about baptism/confession/communion. Protestants do not have sacraments.
You mention the verse that we are one body in Christ. The CHURCH, indeed, is one Body and one Spirit. The Protestants, with all due respect, are NOT part of our Body.
We know that the Protestant Churches do not teach the true Faith.
This does not mean that we need to judge any particular Protestant, not least because we do not know how much of the Protestant teachings they have accepted, and we do not know their relationship with God. This is for God to judge Himself.
But we can see clearly that Protestant teaching is false, and the Protestant songs that reflect Protestant teaching are also false. They lead people astray. They lead people to depend on emotionalism.
There is a great deal wrong with singing Protestant songs. They are not part of our Orthodox tradition for one thing, and therefore we should not take it upon ourselves to choose what we will integrate into our spiritual lives.
It is not WE who are telling people to worship in a certain way, it is the Holy Spirit who guides the Fathers of the Church and has guided them over 2000 years. Orthodoxy means, among other things, RIGHT WORSHIP.
Believe me, I was a Protestant for 25 years. I have a very great experience of Protestant worship. I have led Protestant worship. Putting to one side the relationships of individuals with God, I have to say that Protestant forms of worship are entirely the wrong way to approach God. They are either too cerebral, or too emotional. I do know what I am talking about. I trained in a Protestant seminary.
In my years as an Orthodox I have increasingly found it impossible even to join in any of these songs if I am in a place where one is sung. They are just not what Orthodox should be singing.
This says nothing about which Protestants will be in heaven according to God's mercy. But clearly the substance of Protestant teaching, in sermons, books, and songs, is gravely defective. Orthodox Christians should not read Protestant books, listen to Protestant sermons, or sing modern Protestant songs without the express permission of their priest or bishop.
For myself, the only Western songs I find acceptable are those ancient hymns translated from the Latin, and a few very serious and theologically correct hymns from the 17th-19th century, especially some by the Wesleys who were much influenced by the Eastern Church.
Christ_rose, you say that we must be loving towards other Christians, and I do not think that anyone disagrees. But why does this mean that we must adopt their practices?
The hymn I quoted in my talk on Saturday from St Severus is translated from Greek into Syriac in the ancient times and now into English. It seems to me to be 1000 times deeper than any modern Protestant song - and I KNEW THEM ALL. St Severus says,
You who by enlightening baptism have been made new, by deeds themselves keep such a reputation unto the end. Do not wantonly take yourself back again to the old age of sins; do not by any means follow after deeds of darkness.
You have rightly confessed one Lord and one Faith: renounce the many doctrines of error that are falsified against the truth. Behold! You have been armed with the mighty arms of the Spirit: fight and struggle: and do not through sin make miserable treaties with your foes.
By calling the Holy Father in heaven, ‘Our Father’, fix the hidden eyes of your mind constantly on heaven. You have been hallowed by the divine laver; you have been removed from all filth, pollution and stain.
Having once been buried and risen together with Christ who is God, who once suffered and rose, think not at all of a second baptism. Keep the treasure of immortality that has been bestowed on you with all carefulness, offering praise to the good giver of this gift, according to the riches of His mercy.
How does this compare with a modern Protestant song? I find myself struck dumb before the grace which was poured out upon our father among the saints, St Severus. And he wrote hundreds of hymns of this quality. Why does an enterprising Coptic Orthodox young person not try to set some of these to simple tunes for the benefit of all. That would be a far more blessed enterprise than merely copying the modern Protestant songs.
BTW Christ_rose, I am not Egyptian. I do not believe I have an Egyptian mentality in anything. But we will never sing Protestant songs (and I remember the words of a great many of them) in my congregation. There is a right way to worship, and this is the way that all faithful Orthodox have always worshipped from the beginning. To turn away from such a Tradition is not freedom, it is deception. Worse than that, if we lose the savour of our Orthodox Faith then how will we be salt in the world. What judgement will come upon us if we allow our Orthodox Tradition to be corrupted.
We may well need a revival, but not a Protestant one. We need to become more Orthodox not less. (But let us listen to our brother, there are indeed those of us who concentrate on the structure and substance of our worship and fail to properly enter into the substance of our spiritual life. There are those of us who set bad examples for others and so lead them to stumble and seek truth elsewhere. This is no reason to become Protestant in our own service and worship, but we would do well to consider if anything in our own lives is causing others to doubt the Orthodox Faith and Tradition).
To be Orthodox is not to know all the hymns, it is to know one hymn so well that we live out its content and meaning in our own lives. It is not to know all the words of the liturgy or of the Bible. It is not to be fluent in Coptic. These are all aids (or sometimes obstructions) to being more Orthodox. But just as a house cannot be built without scaffolding, even though we recognise that the scaffolding is not the same as the house. So we must make sure that the scaffolding supporting the building of our own spiritual temple, and the temple of the whole Church, is sound and stable, will not give way, is straight and true, indeed is wholly Orthodox.
Christ_rose, let me see if I can clear things up for you. This is not a manifestation of the closed-minded egyptians, because as you can see, many of the people holding the pro-orthodox music position, aren't Egyptian, and actually come from protestant (and catholic (dz?) ) backgrounds.
The argument they're making is that protestant music focus' too much on the music (and isn't necessarily in line with out theology) and not enough on the actual praise.
Orthodoxy and its style is beautiful, and as you grow in it, you start to realize it more and more, until you reach the point where you just don't want it interfered with. More than that, the thought of it being replaced by something that indisputably lacks its depth (aka protestant music), is frightening to say the least. Thats why they're so passionate in speaking about it. ^^
God loves me, I did not mean to seem prideful in my post and by all means im not saying that i am educated in theology as much as i would like to be. but who can you be to tell me that i am not?? and again as ive said Ive studied coptic and i use it in my DAILY LIFE. i try to speak it as much as i can! i learn hymns till morning time. im not saying our church is wrong. and yes our church hasnt chagend a bit and thats the problem. DONT CHANGE THE THEOLOGY DONT CHANGE THE TRADITIONS DONT LOSE THE HYMNS DONT DONT DONT!!!!!!!! i agree with you!! but we have lost all flexibilty and thats not right!!!
THE verse says ALHARF YAKTOOL!!! the letter kills!!
Father Peter i deeply appreciate your time and care to post on this matter. and thanks to everyone else as well. Again im afraid you are understanding me wrong everyone here.
I love our church, thats an udnerstatement! i agree there is a certain way to worship there is a certain way to approach god and it is not by name or by words but from the heart to the heart SPIRITUAL LIFE IS NOT BY EMOTIONS. There are days when a person may not even feel god at all and yet he still must continue. that is true struggle. HOWEVER we as a coptic church have forgotten what it is to have a relationship with our heavenly father in a right way. We have stayed the same for over 2000 years. which is a blessing and yet it can be our demise. because if we dont change only slightly to accomodate for the needs of the people in an ever so slight way again NOT IN THE WAY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID IT OR THE PROTESTANT CHURCH NOOO NOT AT ALL!!!! but there is nothing wrong to sing songs. there is nothing wrong with clapping for god Father Peter. The words of the bible cannot be broken! Although i am not worthy and i am truly a sinner and yet god has bestowed upon me the grace to be sooo filled with his spirit that i wish i could jump for joy. and when EMMANUEL OUR GOD !!! dwells in our midst HE GIVES JOY THAT NO MAN CAN TAKE AWAY John 16. Forget the protestant form of worship that makes people dance for no reason and just emotion. What about the holy spirit that moves us!!! what about being led by gods spirit those are all parts of our christianity. We have limited ourself by only worriyng about our church and not by god. WE need a revival and in this day in age if we do not learn to be okay with songs that are FINE and nothing wrong with them to praise god thenwe will enver move forward.
I WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE A QUESTION?!!!
in our church we use the word ALLAH alot do we not?? how surprised would you be if i told you that allah is not god but a muslim god and a word used for satan?? well its true. Why dont we worry about fixing that situation instead of worrying about how other people practice and whats wrong with protestants and songs???
father peter please also comment on the responses by my brethren here who have said that protestants are going to hell and that the bible is for only certain cultures. Thats the orthodox mentality that i am speaking of.
I don't think I will answer that question. I'll answer some others.
Do we all deserve judgement? Yes we do.
Will God have mercy on whomsoever He will have mercy? Yes, He will.
Are there Protestants who have done more with the lesser knowledge of God than Orthodox? Yes, there are.
Will God have more mercy on them than on those Orthodox who have wasted their inheritance? I believe so.
Will some Protestants be judged unworthy? Quite possibly.
Will some Orthodox be judged unworthy? Definitely.
What matters is not individuals. We cannot judge them and do not know anyone's soul. But we are to judge every teaching against the standard of our Orthodox Faith, EVEN TEACHINGS THAT ORIGINATE WITHIN OUR COMMUNION. And if they are not Orthodox they are to be rejected.
Hold fast that which has been passed on to you.
You must not take verses and passages out of context. The clapping in Protestant services is not the same as the clapping of receiving a great potentate and King. The clapping in Protestant services is part of a process, witting or unwitting, known or unknown, of creating a mood.
You say...
if we do not learn to be okay with songs that are FINE and nothing wrong with them to praise god then we will enver move forward.
I disagree very strongly. The Church has no need of moving forward. In what way and in what direction is the Church to move? It is a temple built to the Lord. It shall not be shaken or moved. As others have asked, on what basis do YOU judge which non-Orthodox songs are fine to sing? I have sung them for much of my life but now I do not sing them anymore.
As someone coming to Orthodoxy from Catholicism, I am not looking to join a church that is "moving forward". I am looking to join a church that is holding fast. Things are not getting any easier out there for Christians, and if you want to go with the flow you will find yourself swept away very quickly...then you'll likely wish you had held on to all those things you had in Orthodoxy.
I think Protestantism is more dangerous to the Orthodox faith than Islam. We clearly know our differences with the Muslims; there is a fine red line between our beliefs. However, Protestantism, as Fr. Peter nicely put it, is creeping in from the back door and we are not noticing. Slow and silent but deadly.
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128169#msg128169 date=1295997164] Father Peter i deeply appreciate your time and care to post on this matter. and thanks to everyone else as well. Again im afraid you are understanding me wrong everyone here.
I love our church, thats an udnerstatement! i agree there is a certain way to worship there is a certain way to approach god and it is not by name or by words but from the heart to the heart SPIRITUAL LIFE IS NOT BY EMOTIONS. There are days when a person may not even feel god at all and yet he still must continue. that is true struggle. HOWEVER we as a coptic church have forgotten what it is to have a relationship with our heavenly father in a right way. We have stayed the same for over 2000 years. which is a blessing and yet it can be our demise. because if we dont change only slightly to accomodate for the needs of the people in an ever so slight way again NOT IN THE WAY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID IT OR THE PROTESTANT CHURCH NOOO NOT AT ALL!!!! but there is nothing wrong to sing songs. there is nothing wrong with clapping for god Father Peter. The words of the bible cannot be broken! Although i am not worthy and i am truly a sinner and yet god has bestowed upon me the grace to be sooo filled with his spirit that i wish i could jump for joy. and when EMMANUEL OUR GOD !!! dwells in our midst HE GIVES JOY THAT NO MAN CAN TAKE AWAY John 16. Forget the protestant form of worship that makes people dance for no reason and just emotion. What about the holy spirit that moves us!!! what about being led by gods spirit those are all parts of our christianity. We have limited ourself by only worriyng about our church and not by god. WE need a revival and in this day in age if we do not learn to be okay with songs that are FINE and nothing wrong with them to praise god thenwe will enver move forward.
I WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE A QUESTION?!!!
in our church we use the word ALLAH alot do we not?? how surprised would you be if i told you that allah is not god but a muslim god and a word used for satan?? well its true. Why dont we worry about fixing that situation instead of worrying about how other people practice and whats wrong with protestants and songs???
father peter please also comment on the responses by my brethren here who have said that protestants are going to hell and that the bible is for only certain cultures. Thats the orthodox mentality that i am speaking of.
thank you for your time to all. danny
ALLAH DOES NOT MEAN THE MUSLIM GOD... DO NOT BE FOOLED BY LIES... IT IS NOT TRUE
Dear Father Peter thank you for your wise answers.. and again i am not saying clap as protestants do. BUT i want to sya that there is nothing wrong with clapping. Father, as much as i would like yo agree and say that the church doesnt need to move forward but we do. WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD WITHOUT LOSING THE PAST! we NEed to get away from hardheadedness and move on to being more Christly.
To God Loves me, i do as you say. i have been blessed to be teaching two hymns classes and sunday school and in eahc class i explain coptic and what the hymns in our church mean.
To TTTL Whatever you said doesnt give you the right to condemn them as you did earlier.
And OUR CHURCH DOES NEED REVIVAL. What i want to point out here everyone is like FAther peter and Dzheremi hve said that they are converts and god bless you both. You see the church for its blessings. Most of our own orthodox sons do not hwoever!!! and we cannot bring coptic to them or bring hymns because not everyone has that talent. Yes they can learn and all but it wont be thier passion. Let them love god in other ways.EVERY SAINT LOVED GOD DIFFERENTLY AND CHRIST IS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYONE. SAME CHRIST DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS!!!
We must move ahead without lpsing the past!! and go steadfast in the path!!(seeker to meet jesus)
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128167#msg128167 date=1295996485] God loves me, I did not mean to seem prideful in my post and by all means im not saying that i am educated in theology as much as i would like to be. but who can you be to tell me that i am not?? and again as ive said Ive studied coptic and i use it in my DAILY LIFE. i try to speak it as much as i can! i learn hymns till morning time. im not saying our church is wrong. and yes our church hasnt chagend a bit and thats the problem. DONT CHANGE THE THEOLOGY DONT CHANGE THE TRADITIONS DONT LOSE THE HYMNS DONT DONT DONT!!!!!!!! i agree with you!! but we have lost all flexibilty and thats not right!!!
THE verse says ALHARF YAKTOOL!!! the letter kills!!
ORTHODOX means exactly what it says. NEVER CHANGING. and now you you are telling us to change???
in our church we use the word ALLAH alot do we not?? how surprised would you be if i told you that allah is not god but a muslim god and a word used for satan?? well its true. Why dont we worry about fixing that situation instead of worrying about how other people practice and whats wrong with protestants and songs???
We are fixing it. When they print arabic bibles now, they never use the word allah. they replace it with rabena or elahna, or even elohim
Well the church has survived for over two thousand years with the same traditions, why should some kids who do not care enough about the church to open a book make us change our traditions! I understand why you're defending the youth, but I', sorry, Christianity is not easy, you don't show up to church once a week and expect to go to heaven.
The Youth need to recognize that they don't understand the liturgy because they dont put in the effort!
I also think you misunderstood this thread... we do not hate protestants (or anyone), most of my friends are protestants and I love then like any of my coptic friends.
But they have their worship and we have ours! We don't necessarily agree with their worship, but that doesn't mean we hate them.
Danny, take all that zeal and excitement and instead of changing for the youth educate them....
I remember abouna during the liturgy once told me not to let a kid hold the shorya, and after the liturgy he made me take the kid into the altar and explain to him that the shorya is a symbol of saint Mary's womb! I didn't have to change and tell him the shorya was the cool smoke thrower machine... We shouldn't change for the youth, the youth should change for the church
Well the church has survived for over two thousand years with the same traditions, why should some kids who do not care enough about the church to open a book make us change our traditions! I understand why you're defending the youth, but I', sorry, Christianity is not easy, you don't show up to church once a week and expect to go to heaven.
The Youth need to recognize that they don't understand the liturgy because they dont put in the effort!
I also think you misunderstood this thread... we do not hate protestants (or anyone), most of my friends are protestants and I love then like any of my coptic friends.
But they have their worship and we have ours! We don't necessarily agree with their worship, but that doesn't mean we hate them.
Danny, take all that zeal and excitement and instead of changing for the youth educate them....
I remember abouna during the liturgy once told me not to let a kid hold the shorya, and after the liturgy he made me take the kid into the altar and explain to him that the shorya is a symbol of saint Mary's womb! I didn't have to change and tell him the shorya was the cool smoke thrower machine... We shouldn't change for the youth, the youth should change for the church
word.
In pre-servants once I asked if there was anything wrong with the protestant church my teacher replied "We have the best way to get to heaven." So why would we change our youth to something other than the best way to get to heaven.
Comments
PRotestants are christians are they not?? or would you judge them and condemn them to hell??
Catholics are christians are they not?? or will you say that just because they are an apostolic church that maybe theyll get to heaven??
ORthodox are christians are they not or will the greek orthodox not get to heaven ???
Or just us and the five oriental churches??
THE END OF EACH OF THESE RELIGIONS SAYS CHRISTIAN YES OR NO?????????????????????????? im not telling you go be a muslim or a hindu
but ur not obeying gods commandemts! love others!! do we love protestants or no?? are we condemning them?? you know something we talk about them in a horrible way and yet they treat us with much respect!! im not going to dance in church ever. and thats not my culture! but i will clap to praise the name of my LORD AND SAVIOR WHEN HIS HOLY SPIIRT FILLS ME SOO MUCH THAT THE ONLY OUTPOUR I CAN HAVE IS CLAPPING WHEN I WISH I COULD FLYY???? the liturgy should only bewith the cymbals and the tirianto! i agree with that because that is how we have learned to worship but outside the liturgy we must have full out praise!!! Why is it that we are creating separation???
we have orthodox and catholic and protestant and lutheran and this and that!! lets talk about practicing christians TRUE CHRISTIANS not the ones by name!! who are you to tell anyone else how to praise god???? be open minded and have a loving heart and be humble and look at your CHRISTIAN BRETHREN WITH LOVE!!!!!!! accept them as christ would!!! or will you shun them liek the muslims shun their brothers!!
we are CHRISTIAN !!! GOD IS LOVE!!! why do we show hard headedness and islam in our CHRISTIAN FAITH!!! when christ was a simple loving humble being!! FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GOD!!!!!!!! dont dare compare yourself to a church father or another human being!!! Be perfect just as your FATHER in heaven is perfect Matthew 5 42. do u want to be like god ?? or like another person?? OUR ONLY MEDIATOR IS CHRIST!!! BE OF CHRIST!!!!!!!
There are those who feel that this type of praise can replace our old traditions, and this is the issue, at least in my opinion. It's not the church that needs to adapt to the youth, but rather the youth that must adapt to their church. Otherwise every generation is going to be more in tune with their social environment, and the church will have to continue to retune as well to fit the "spiritual" needs of the church? Yes it's ok that there's dancing in some churches...but that's when it's part of their culture. The Orthodox church is Africa I know incorporates dancing into their worship, but this is a big part of their culture, it is not part of ours. Do we see this happening in Egypt? I don't think so. Our church has been founded and survived on the blood and strong doctrine of the church fathers and the martyrs. I don't think anything needs to change now.
I feel that it is important at this juncture to step back for a moment and reflect on the fatherly recommendations that our great Defenders of the Faith presented in the past concerning the topic of musical instruments in worship.
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,8585.msg108436.html#msg108436
As for the discussion of the words of the "Christian" songs that have made a very prominent display amongst the current youth of our Church... this will require a much longer post, and I am unfortunately away from my computer at the moment. I will say, as a general rule, concerning songs, images, dancing and the like, we should seek to protect Orthodoxy and Orthopraxis at all times, and should be incredibly unwilling to allow anything new into the Church without a very deep investigation as to whether or not these new practices are in accordance with Orthodoxy as a whole.
I wish our eyes were opened to see the beautiful pearls that we have in front of us, as we often search among the filth as swine to discover something of more value in our own eyes. That which we value as nothing will receive no effort in being protected.
Childoforthodoxy
i would like to tell you that
I WILL FIGHT FOR MY ORTHODOX CHURCH EVEN MORE THAN YOU MY BROTHER!!!!!!!!
but we have egyptian muslim mentalities!!! we have such close minded minds!! who are we to say that one form of worship is wrong and another is right!!! nothing is wrong with what the church teaches us !! nothing is wrong with the agbeya nothing is wrong with tasbeha i havent missed a single tasbeha in 3 years. i love our church to an extreme extent. and yet the farther you get into it the deeper u see that we hvae many many islamic ideas in it!!! just because of the way we have been abused in egypt by the islamic culture.!!! you know that our culture is the way it is now because of muslims not because of ourselves. The black in funerals is a muslims thing and the wailing and screaming!! on my mothers funeral i WORE A WHITE SUIT!!!! thats not a muslim thing THATS A CHRISTIAN THING!!!!!!! AND BTWWWW SOO UR TELLING MEEEE THAT THE BIBLE SPEAKS TO CERTAIN CULTURES AND NOT TO OTHERS??? EVALUATE WHAT UR SAYING!!! UR SAYING THAT CLAPPING OUR HANDS IS FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE AND NOT FOR OTHERS> THAT THAT VERSE PERTAINS TO PEOPLE IN AFRICA AND NOT IN AMERICA OR EGYPT???? no my brother!!! not at all !! the words of the bible are for everyone!!!!!!!!! CLAP YOUR HANDS OH YOU NATIONS!!!!! not you africans or you this or that!!!! OF ALL NATIONS BUDDYY!!!! ALL NATIONS!!!!!!!!!
How do you know that im not theologically educated??? how would u knoww?? do you believe in the blood of christ??? why dont we sing about that in the church?? its in the bible isnt it?? tell mee how many deacons read the bible more than they study alhan?? tell me how many people sit with god for hours and hours in our church or do they come to church and daze off cuz they dont understand a single word!!!!!! because half the liturgy is in coptic and by the time u get to the english or arabic part theyre sleeping???
WE NEED A REVIVAL AND ITS People who have the same mentality as yours no offense to you habibi!!! but tahts the mentality thats holding the coptic church back!!! im not saying be protestant NO!! im saying let god reign in our hearts!! i will not stand for whats being said against other churches!! these people will be better off than us in the long run because we are pridefull and judgemental and they are not!
YOU ARE ONE BODY AND ONE SPIRIT JUST AS YOU WERE CALLED BY THE ONE HOPE OF YOUR CALLING!!!!!!
you have judged the protestants and condemned them to hell with the muslims who are torturing and killing christians?? HOW IS THAT A CHRISTIAN ACT! i promise you that u will see them at the end of days higher than you and i in the kingdom of heaven!
Let us praise the Lord!!
lets see how the bible tells us to praise the lord!!
the bible says praise the lord all you nations let ALL PEOPLES PRAISE HIM
and is SAYs CLAP YOUR HANDS OH YOU NATIONS!!!
the word orthodox means the right way!! and although that is our name many of us dont practice it because by worshipping christ the "not true orthodox way" and condemning others. We must keep our ways and not stray far from our fathers teachings and form the church teachings I AGREE 1000000000000000000000000 percent!! but our youth are dead because of our egyptian muslim hard headedness! our parents are orthodox by name because thye arent interested in the way we live as christians. we here on tasbeha.org are very interested in our church. How many of our youth arent on this site??
how many of those youths parents read the bible?? how many of their parents are christians by name and not by truth?? why do u think that is?? they have been in church longer than us havent they?? its because our church is only about the church and we have forgotten THE FATHER AND THE SON JESUS CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!! who all three should be lviing breathing inside us. Not just in the church!!!!!!!
how many of our churches need to be revived!! ]
Let me ask you all a question!!
Cantor Ibrahim Ayad does performances does he not?? with instruments does he not??
What about Davis ensemble and George Kerollus?? they do performances with music do they not??
WHAT ABOUT BOULOS MALAK who with all due respect sings hymns and taraneem sometimes with more playing and jumping than i would think to be at a sweet sixtteen?? and yet who tells them no?
does the pope say no? i firmly believe these cds and songs have gotten me closer to god?? you dont think so? why dont u listen to a song that says I CAN SING OF YOUR LOVE FOREVER!!! or that HIS BLOOD WILL COVER US!! or that HIS LOVE IS OVER AND UNDERNEATH!! or that HES BROKEN ALL OVER US!! why not???? IS THAT UNORTHODOX TO YOUUUUUUUUUU????
Christ_rose, with all due respect to Father Sorial's joke, I was taught that only the Orthodox will go to Heaven. I am not God and I do not make such judgments, but the Bible is clear about baptism/confession/communion. Protestants do not have sacraments.
You mention the verse that we are one body in Christ. The CHURCH, indeed, is one Body and one Spirit. The Protestants, with all due respect, are NOT part of our Body.
This does not mean that we need to judge any particular Protestant, not least because we do not know how much of the Protestant teachings they have accepted, and we do not know their relationship with God. This is for God to judge Himself.
But we can see clearly that Protestant teaching is false, and the Protestant songs that reflect Protestant teaching are also false. They lead people astray. They lead people to depend on emotionalism.
There is a great deal wrong with singing Protestant songs. They are not part of our Orthodox tradition for one thing, and therefore we should not take it upon ourselves to choose what we will integrate into our spiritual lives.
It is not WE who are telling people to worship in a certain way, it is the Holy Spirit who guides the Fathers of the Church and has guided them over 2000 years. Orthodoxy means, among other things, RIGHT WORSHIP.
Believe me, I was a Protestant for 25 years. I have a very great experience of Protestant worship. I have led Protestant worship. Putting to one side the relationships of individuals with God, I have to say that Protestant forms of worship are entirely the wrong way to approach God. They are either too cerebral, or too emotional. I do know what I am talking about. I trained in a Protestant seminary.
In my years as an Orthodox I have increasingly found it impossible even to join in any of these songs if I am in a place where one is sung. They are just not what Orthodox should be singing.
This says nothing about which Protestants will be in heaven according to God's mercy. But clearly the substance of Protestant teaching, in sermons, books, and songs, is gravely defective. Orthodox Christians should not read Protestant books, listen to Protestant sermons, or sing modern Protestant songs without the express permission of their priest or bishop.
For myself, the only Western songs I find acceptable are those ancient hymns translated from the Latin, and a few very serious and theologically correct hymns from the 17th-19th century, especially some by the Wesleys who were much influenced by the Eastern Church.
Christ_rose, you say that we must be loving towards other Christians, and I do not think that anyone disagrees. But why does this mean that we must adopt their practices?
The hymn I quoted in my talk on Saturday from St Severus is translated from Greek into Syriac in the ancient times and now into English. It seems to me to be 1000 times deeper than any modern Protestant song - and I KNEW THEM ALL. St Severus says,
You who by enlightening baptism have been made new,
by deeds themselves keep such a reputation unto the end.
Do not wantonly take yourself back again to the old age of sins;
do not by any means follow after deeds of darkness.
You have rightly confessed one Lord and one Faith:
renounce the many doctrines of error that are falsified against the truth.
Behold! You have been armed with the mighty arms of the Spirit:
fight and struggle: and do not through sin make miserable treaties with your foes.
By calling the Holy Father in heaven, ‘Our Father’,
fix the hidden eyes of your mind constantly on heaven.
You have been hallowed by the divine laver;
you have been removed from all filth, pollution and stain.
Having once been buried and risen together with Christ who is God,
who once suffered and rose, think not at all of a second baptism.
Keep the treasure of immortality that has been bestowed on you with all carefulness,
offering praise to the good giver of this gift, according to the riches of His mercy.
How does this compare with a modern Protestant song? I find myself struck dumb before the grace which was poured out upon our father among the saints, St Severus. And he wrote hundreds of hymns of this quality. Why does an enterprising Coptic Orthodox young person not try to set some of these to simple tunes for the benefit of all. That would be a far more blessed enterprise than merely copying the modern Protestant songs.
BTW Christ_rose, I am not Egyptian. I do not believe I have an Egyptian mentality in anything. But we will never sing Protestant songs (and I remember the words of a great many of them) in my congregation. There is a right way to worship, and this is the way that all faithful Orthodox have always worshipped from the beginning. To turn away from such a Tradition is not freedom, it is deception. Worse than that, if we lose the savour of our Orthodox Faith then how will we be salt in the world. What judgement will come upon us if we allow our Orthodox Tradition to be corrupted.
We may well need a revival, but not a Protestant one. We need to become more Orthodox not less. (But let us listen to our brother, there are indeed those of us who concentrate on the structure and substance of our worship and fail to properly enter into the substance of our spiritual life. There are those of us who set bad examples for others and so lead them to stumble and seek truth elsewhere. This is no reason to become Protestant in our own service and worship, but we would do well to consider if anything in our own lives is causing others to doubt the Orthodox Faith and Tradition).
To be Orthodox is not to know all the hymns, it is to know one hymn so well that we live out its content and meaning in our own lives. It is not to know all the words of the liturgy or of the Bible. It is not to be fluent in Coptic. These are all aids (or sometimes obstructions) to being more Orthodox. But just as a house cannot be built without scaffolding, even though we recognise that the scaffolding is not the same as the house. So we must make sure that the scaffolding supporting the building of our own spiritual temple, and the temple of the whole Church, is sound and stable, will not give way, is straight and true, indeed is wholly Orthodox.
Father Peter
The argument they're making is that protestant music focus' too much on the music (and isn't necessarily in line with out theology) and not enough on the actual praise.
Orthodoxy and its style is beautiful, and as you grow in it, you start to realize it more and more, until you reach the point where you just don't want it interfered with. More than that, the thought of it being replaced by something that indisputably lacks its depth (aka protestant music), is frightening to say the least. Thats why they're so passionate in speaking about it. ^^
THE verse says ALHARF YAKTOOL!!! the letter kills!!
Again im afraid you are understanding me wrong everyone here.
I love our church, thats an udnerstatement!
i agree there is a certain way to worship
there is a certain way to approach god and it is not by name or by words but from the heart to the heart
SPIRITUAL LIFE IS NOT BY EMOTIONS. There are days when a person may not even feel god at all and yet he still must continue. that is true struggle.
HOWEVER we as a coptic church have forgotten what it is to have a relationship with our heavenly father in a right way. We have stayed the same for over 2000 years. which is a blessing and yet it can be our demise. because if we dont change only slightly to accomodate for the needs of the people in an ever so slight way again NOT IN THE WAY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID IT OR THE PROTESTANT CHURCH NOOO NOT AT ALL!!!! but there is nothing wrong to sing songs. there is nothing wrong with clapping for god Father Peter. The words of the bible cannot be broken! Although i am not worthy and i am truly a sinner and yet god has bestowed upon me the grace to be sooo filled with his spirit that i wish i could jump for joy. and when EMMANUEL OUR GOD !!! dwells in our midst HE GIVES JOY THAT NO MAN CAN TAKE AWAY John 16. Forget the protestant form of worship that makes people dance for no reason and just emotion. What about the holy spirit that moves us!!! what about being led by gods spirit those are all parts of our christianity. We have limited ourself by only worriyng about our church and not by god. WE need a revival and in this day in age if we do not learn to be okay with songs that are FINE and nothing wrong with them to praise god thenwe will enver move forward.
I WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE A QUESTION?!!!
in our church we use the word ALLAH alot do we not??
how surprised would you be if i told you that allah is not god but a muslim god and a word used for satan??
well its true. Why dont we worry about fixing that situation instead of worrying about how other people practice and whats wrong with protestants and songs???
father peter please also comment on the responses by my brethren here who have said that protestants are going to hell and that the bible is for only certain cultures. Thats the orthodox mentality that i am speaking of.
thank you for your time to all.
danny
I don't think I will answer that question. I'll answer some others.
Do we all deserve judgement? Yes we do.
Will God have mercy on whomsoever He will have mercy? Yes, He will.
Are there Protestants who have done more with the lesser knowledge of God than Orthodox? Yes, there are.
Will God have more mercy on them than on those Orthodox who have wasted their inheritance? I believe so.
Will some Protestants be judged unworthy? Quite possibly.
Will some Orthodox be judged unworthy? Definitely.
What matters is not individuals. We cannot judge them and do not know anyone's soul. But we are to judge every teaching against the standard of our Orthodox Faith, EVEN TEACHINGS THAT ORIGINATE WITHIN OUR COMMUNION. And if they are not Orthodox they are to be rejected.
Hold fast that which has been passed on to you.
You must not take verses and passages out of context. The clapping in Protestant services is not the same as the clapping of receiving a great potentate and King. The clapping in Protestant services is part of a process, witting or unwitting, known or unknown, of creating a mood.
You say... I disagree very strongly. The Church has no need of moving forward. In what way and in what direction is the Church to move? It is a temple built to the Lord. It shall not be shaken or moved. As others have asked, on what basis do YOU judge which non-Orthodox songs
are fine to sing? I have sung them for much of my life but now I do not sing them anymore.
Father Peter
Father Peter i deeply appreciate your time and care to post on this matter. and thanks to everyone else as well.
Again im afraid you are understanding me wrong everyone here.
I love our church, thats an udnerstatement!
i agree there is a certain way to worship
there is a certain way to approach god and it is not by name or by words but from the heart to the heart
SPIRITUAL LIFE IS NOT BY EMOTIONS. There are days when a person may not even feel god at all and yet he still must continue. that is true struggle.
HOWEVER we as a coptic church have forgotten what it is to have a relationship with our heavenly father in a right way. We have stayed the same for over 2000 years. which is a blessing and yet it can be our demise. because if we dont change only slightly to accomodate for the needs of the people in an ever so slight way again NOT IN THE WAY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DID IT OR THE PROTESTANT CHURCH NOOO NOT AT ALL!!!! but there is nothing wrong to sing songs. there is nothing wrong with clapping for god Father Peter. The words of the bible cannot be broken! Although i am not worthy and i am truly a sinner and yet god has bestowed upon me the grace to be sooo filled with his spirit that i wish i could jump for joy. and when EMMANUEL OUR GOD !!! dwells in our midst HE GIVES JOY THAT NO MAN CAN TAKE AWAY John 16. Forget the protestant form of worship that makes people dance for no reason and just emotion. What about the holy spirit that moves us!!! what about being led by gods spirit those are all parts of our christianity. We have limited ourself by only worriyng about our church and not by god. WE need a revival and in this day in age if we do not learn to be okay with songs that are FINE and nothing wrong with them to praise god thenwe will enver move forward.
I WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE A QUESTION?!!!
in our church we use the word ALLAH alot do we not??
how surprised would you be if i told you that allah is not god but a muslim god and a word used for satan??
well its true. Why dont we worry about fixing that situation instead of worrying about how other people practice and whats wrong with protestants and songs???
father peter please also comment on the responses by my brethren here who have said that protestants are going to hell and that the bible is for only certain cultures. Thats the orthodox mentality that i am speaking of.
thank you for your time to all.
danny
ALLAH DOES NOT MEAN THE MUSLIM GOD... DO NOT BE FOOLED BY LIES... IT IS NOT TRUE
ALLAH MEANS GOD IN ARABIC.
To God Loves me, i do as you say. i have been blessed to be teaching two hymns classes and sunday school and in eahc class i explain coptic and what the hymns in our church mean.
To TTTL Whatever you said doesnt give you the right to condemn them as you did earlier.
And OUR CHURCH DOES NEED REVIVAL. What i want to point out here everyone is like FAther peter and Dzheremi hve said that they are converts and god bless you both. You see the church for its blessings. Most of our own orthodox sons do not hwoever!!! and we cannot bring coptic to them or bring hymns because not everyone has that talent. Yes they can learn and all but it wont be thier passion. Let them love god in other ways.EVERY SAINT LOVED GOD DIFFERENTLY AND CHRIST IS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYONE. SAME CHRIST DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS!!!
We must move ahead without lpsing the past!! and go steadfast in the path!!(seeker to meet jesus)
God loves me, I did not mean to seem prideful in my post and by all means im not saying that i am educated in theology as much as i would like to be. but who can you be to tell me that i am not?? and again as ive said Ive studied coptic and i use it in my DAILY LIFE. i try to speak it as much as i can! i learn hymns till morning time. im not saying our church is wrong. and yes our church hasnt chagend a bit and thats the problem. DONT CHANGE THE THEOLOGY DONT CHANGE THE TRADITIONS DONT LOSE THE HYMNS DONT DONT DONT!!!!!!!! i agree with you!! but we have lost all flexibilty and thats not right!!!
THE verse says ALHARF YAKTOOL!!! the letter kills!!
ORTHODOX means exactly what it says. NEVER CHANGING. and now you you are telling us to change???
in our church we use the word ALLAH alot do we not??
how surprised would you be if i told you that allah is not god but a muslim god and a word used for satan??
well its true. Why dont we worry about fixing that situation instead of worrying about how other people practice and whats wrong with protestants and songs???
We are fixing it. When they print arabic bibles now, they never use the word allah. they replace it with rabena or elahna, or even elohim
You said we need a "revival for the youth"
Well the church has survived for over two thousand years with the same traditions, why should some kids who do not care enough about the church to open a book make us change our traditions! I understand why you're defending the youth, but I', sorry, Christianity is not easy, you don't show up to church once a week and expect to go to heaven.
The Youth need to recognize that they don't understand the liturgy because they dont put in the effort!
I also think you misunderstood this thread... we do not hate protestants (or anyone), most of my friends are protestants and I love then like any of my coptic friends.
But they have their worship and we have ours! We don't necessarily agree with their worship, but that doesn't mean we hate them.
Danny, take all that zeal and excitement and instead of changing for the youth educate them....
I remember abouna during the liturgy once told me not to let a kid hold the shorya, and after the liturgy he made me take the kid into the altar and explain to him that the shorya is a symbol of saint Mary's womb! I didn't have to change and tell him the shorya was the cool smoke thrower machine... We shouldn't change for the youth, the youth should change for the church
Danny,
You said we need a "revival for the youth"
Well the church has survived for over two thousand years with the same traditions, why should some kids who do not care enough about the church to open a book make us change our traditions! I understand why you're defending the youth, but I', sorry, Christianity is not easy, you don't show up to church once a week and expect to go to heaven.
The Youth need to recognize that they don't understand the liturgy because they dont put in the effort!
I also think you misunderstood this thread... we do not hate protestants (or anyone), most of my friends are protestants and I love then like any of my coptic friends.
But they have their worship and we have ours! We don't necessarily agree with their worship, but that doesn't mean we hate them.
Danny, take all that zeal and excitement and instead of changing for the youth educate them....
I remember abouna during the liturgy once told me not to let a kid hold the shorya, and after the liturgy he made me take the kid into the altar and explain to him that the shorya is a symbol of saint Mary's womb! I didn't have to change and tell him the shorya was the cool smoke thrower machine... We shouldn't change for the youth, the youth should change for the church
word.
In pre-servants once I asked if there was anything wrong with the protestant church my teacher replied "We have the best way to get to heaven." So why would we change our youth to something other than the best way to get to heaven.