Westernised images in the Church

peterfarrington

Where has the custom of using very Western and sentimentalised images in the Coptic Church come from?

With such an ancient iconographic tradition it is rather disturbing to a convert such as myself to find that images which would even be rejected in the West have a surprising popularity.

When were such images introduced? Is there a sense that they are as incompatible with Orthodoxy as Protestant songs? There is such a beautiful modern tradition of Coptic iconography that it is hard to understand why these Western images are present everywhere?

What is the reason?

Father Peter

ophadece

The reason simply is that Copts dislike their Coptic roots. They like foreign stuff, so they give up their own. Yes it's true talking of hymnody, or any form of folkloric art used it the church. YOu must have already read the article on Greco-Bohairic abouna, haven't you?
I guess the problem can also be traced to Christian bookstores in Egypt, where sellers make unfathomable amounts of profit and of course as a novelty they propagate western icons without enough research. CAn anybody say no? I doubt.
Oujai
Ps: father I'll reply to your email later as I've been engrossed in studying for an exam on a Thursday that's life changing for me so please pray for me a lot...

jydeacon

Father Peter, what type of iconography are you suggesting? I have only been to one church(two actually) that don't have coptic iconography per se. Can you provide a link to an icon you consider non-coptic? I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about.

peterfarrington

Lol. When you put me on the spot I can't immediately think where I can find a gallery for you.

.....

A large proportion of the books here, for example, have non-Orthodox covers.

One example is this...



This is not an icon, and certainly not a Coptic icon.

Here is an icon of Our Lord from my own Church..



This is the difference I am talking about. And there are MUCH worse non-Orthodox images which are used in the Coptic Church. There was one appeared on the projection screen when I was at the Cathedral for the Wednesday Bible Study with His Holiness and even the senior Coptic lady I was sitting next to in the middle of the front row said she found it too much. It showed a naturalistic picture of Christ with a crown of thorns and blood pouring down his head in a realistic manner. It was not iconographic at all.

I guess that ophadece knows what I mean.

(ophadece, take your time replying, and God bless your studies)

Father Peter

jydeacon

Ahh I see what you mean now, yes that seems to be prevalent in discussions and meetings, however majority of churches have true iconography. I wouldn't be very worried about this though since the churches that don't have this type of iconography are very few and far between. At least thats my opinion. In the meetings, I understand where you are coming from, but what can we do? The issue we have these days(which is a topic on its own) is priests and servants, have focused more on invoking some sort of emotion(which won't last) in the meetings and sermons instead of having true reflection and deeper understand that you had mentioned from why they are using this photos in the first place. There is much more I have to say but will leave it at this for now.

Pray for me

peterfarrington

LOL!, or rather what is the opposite of LOL. C[ry]OL?

There is always something we can do when we see things that do not belong to Orthodoxy creeping in. If no-one says anything then they will come to dominate. At least we can (probably) raise our concerns with our priests, without speaking as though we were insisting on anything, just saying that we felt very uncomfortable and would prefer to see more authentic Coptic images used in the Church.

Father Peter

ophadece

Dear jydeacon,
How many times have you been to Egypt? You're probably not aware of the depth of the problem or the gravity that nobody but Fr. Peter seems to care about. It's a general rule of thumb nowadays that when a new church is built or an old one is refurbished that the more appealing western icons are then used in abundance...
Oujai

egyboy

singing "Christian" songs in youth meetings and gatherings as stated in the other thread... this disgusts me... when will we truly be ORTHODOX?!

dzheremi

Whenever issues like this come up, I always want to ask: What is missing in your tradition? I know it's not my place to put anyone on the spot, not being Orthodox myself, but really...what is missing from your tradition that you should take the paintings, songs, and other things from other traditions? Is Orthodoxy whole and complete and lacking in nothing, or is it not? I don't think people who advocate for non-Orthodox paintings, hymns, approaches to the faith, etc. really know what they're giving up.

And, if I can say a candid word without being against anyone: It is a definite turn off to someone looking in from the outside, praying to become Orthodox. I have spent my whole life in various ways trying to get away from Protestantism and that mentality...is it going to follow me into the Orthodox Church, too? I don't want it there. Get it away from me! But more importantly, get it away from yourselves and your congregations and your families, before your children grow up not knowing why they (should) do or believe in anything at all. You have been given a gift that many of us in other parts of the world or who grew up in other traditions do not have, but would want if we only knew about it. Give us a reason to want to find it, just as you'd want to give your children a reason to want to keep it.

TITL

Now that this topic is brought up, it won't be random if I add that the icons in the Texas Abbey don't look Coptic.

I've always wanted to get that out of my system.

ophadece

Dear marenhos ebshois,
I really don't understand why you chose to nickname yourself as such? Why don't you say let's praise the Lord? If it doesn't matter to you singing ANY song, drawing ANY painting then I strongly encourage you to look inside and understand why you are a Coptic Orthodox... I'm assuming you are... if people don't mind anything then why keep calling our church as such? Why don't we adopt the other evangelical methods as well and spread them? Certainly they managed to attract huge numbers, fidn't they?
Oujai

peterfarrington

dzheremi, what is a shame is that there is such a high quality of Coptic iconography being produced at the present time, such that whenever I produce some printed or presentational material I always want to use that rather than Westernised sentimental pictures.

Here in the UK there are at least two Coptic iconographers of international quality. All of the large icons in my own little Church have been produced by one of these.

My own main concern is not so much with Coptic Orthodoxy per se, but that we remain firmly Orthodox at all costs. The Church of Alexandria has always been receptive of the influences of other Orthodox cultures but has not adopted non-Orthodox teachings. I would not mind much if we were turning to Syrian, Armenian or Ethiopian Orthodox hymns, or even Byzantine iconography, but I just cannot understand why folk would embrace a Western form of religious picture that would not be valued even in the West. Likewise with singing the most trivial of Western songs when the whole hymn tradition of Orthodoxy in the widest sense is available for any of us to study. If there are folk who feel they need to look elsewhere than the Coptic tradition then please, please at least turn to the wider Orthodox cultures of the rest of our Communion.

Father Peter

dzheremi

You make a good point, Fr. Peter, about other Orthodox traditions, and an even better point about how the paintings used by many would not be valued even in the West where they originated. I can write from personal experience about that: For a few years while I was Roman Catholic, I was in college in an unfamiliar state with very few Catholics. As such once I found the local "Newman Center" (a faith center attached to the university community; these are common to Roman Catholicism across the USA, I think), I figured this was where the local Catholics are and started going to Mass there. It was really excruciating a lot of the time (a jazz band playing during the Mass? It happened.), but the priest was a good guy and I didn't know anywhere else to go. While I often complained about the irreverence of the services there, it is telling that even with all the abuses the only images present in the building used for services were paintings in the Byzantine Orthodox style (not sure if it's proper to call them "icons", as they weren't in an Orthodox church and I don't know who painted them). There was a large one of the Theotokos that I would often come before in prayer in the evenings when there was no Mass scheduled. I never asked the priest there why they didn't have Western paintings but did have all kinds of other ridiculous nonsense, but it is kind of strange to think back on and wonder...

Viv

I guess it has to do with how aesthetically pleasing the images are. I am personally really into art and I love to draw. I can't say I'm a big fan of Coptic art though. It's strength lies in that our icons tell a story. Like if you look at the coptic icon of the last supper, you can see Judas sneaking out in the back and other markers of the story.

On the other hand though, the people in coptic art are flat-seeming (Kinda like ancient-egyptian art) and the people are a bit disproportionate. The colors used are also just really bland--not bright or attractive. The other drawings are just prettier? more pleasing to the eyes.

Maybe our fathers had wisdom in this, as they had with the music. Everything is muted so as not to take away from the point. The point is not to enjoy the art or the music for their own sakes, but just the praise of God that is in them.

copticuser20

I agree. I think the non-coptic icons are more astetically pleasing. i am not sure if i have the same image in my head as you do Abouna but if you look on this church's homepage, their icons are gorgeous! its hard to see them fully here because they only have snippets for hyperlinks: http://saint-mary.net/ . this church has the most beautiful icons and iconastasis i have ever seen. but HH himself stated "...even this church's icons are truly coptic...". I guess HH does not have a problem with them.

peterfarrington

Icons are not meant to be 'aesthsetically pleasing'.

This seems to be another side of the Protestant influence.

I would suggest, epiphania, that with an interest in art you should really study the meaning and history of iconography. I think you would find it interesting. I would say that you seem to look at icons without fully appreciating them but if you read some books about iconography you would see why there are rules about how icons are to be produced. There are quite a few books in English written on the subject now. I don't know if Dr Fanous has written anything?

I have to sat copticuser20 that I don't like the icons on the site you linked to. They are not in a proper Coptic style. This is important. We must not lose what has been preserved for so long.

Father Peter

copticuser20

[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10539.msg128168#msg128168 date=1295996891]
I have to sat copticuser20 that I don't like the icons on the site you linked to. They are not in a proper Coptic style. This is important. We must not lose what has been preserved for so long.



but if HH likes it and it comes out of a monastery in Egypt, doesn't that make it ok? Art is not like a belief where it is set in stone. Art can change and will change. obviously back in the day of the early coptic church, artists did not have the tools or colors to paint in a natural style like we have now so they painted in a simpler style and as time progressed, the art style began to change. i don't think icons that are made by monks and approved by abbots and the Pope and bought by wise priests resemble protestantism at all.

ophadece

I am not sure Copticuser20 where you live, but it appears that you don't know anything about art in ambient Egypt, which advanced into the Coptic life. If you visit the pharaonic temples in southern Egypt you'll realise that they used to draw with very bright colours including azure and gold, and what the whole world is too amazed to understand to this very day is how those paintings survived tens of centuries and still live on.
In his statement, or her, epiphania answered themselves. Please just meditate, without having to study as a first step, pretty much as is the same with Coptic hymnody, and you will understand more clearly...
Oujai

peterfarrington

Sorry, I don't mean to contradict you at all but you are very wrong on this.

There are rules about the art that is to be used in our Churches. It has nothing to do with artistic technique in the world around us.

There is a style of iconography which should be used in all Coptic Churches. Just as there are forms of worship. These images that you linked to, though certainly skillfully produced, were not produced in any icon workshop such as are under the guidance of Dr Fanous and his disciples. They are Westernised, based on non-Christian ideas of what art should look like. This is the problem.

It is not a matter of what we like. It is a matter of changing the Orthodox Tradition for something foreign. Natural styles are not proper for a Church.

Here are some of the icons from St George's Cathedral in England. These are what I consider proper Coptic icons.



Father Peter

Viv

[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10539.msg128168#msg128168 date=1295996891]

I would suggest, epiphania, that with an interest in art you should really study the meaning and history of iconography. I think you would find it interesting. I would say that you seem to look at icons without fully appreciating them but if you read some books about iconography you would see why there are rules about how icons are to be produced. There are quite a few books in English written on the subject now.



Maybe. A good book on the topic would certainly clear up a few things. I'm sure Coptic art has a fascinating history, and I do know certain things about it. Like big eyes in coptic art represents the big-ness of spiritual eyes. I definitely recall learning that in Sunday school sometime in the last ten yrs, lol.

But it still remains that the other paintings are just... prettier to look at.

You know, when Sunday school came to the Coptic church a lot of the servants were against it because sunday school was a protestant thing. My great uncle was one of them as sunday school only came to us in the 1940s-50s. But it turned out really great for the church.

peterfarrington

It has had down sides as well I would say. I am sure that others can think of some.

But teaching people about the faith is something that has always taken place. It is not new. Even if it had become less productive by the 19th century.

The Sunday School movement is not essentially Protestant. The first theological college was established in Alexandria 1800 years ago.

What is different now is that a non-Orthodox substance is being introduced. That is very different.

Father Peter

dzheremi

But it still remains that the other paintings are just... prettier to look at.

That is such a subjective standard, though, Epiphania. As I was discussing earlier today with Father Peter about songs: Whose standard are we using when we say these things? Because to me, the paintings that Father Peter is talking about are not "prettier" or "nicer to look at" or any of that stuff. I look at them and I see things that I would've seen in my grandmother's house perhaps (she was a Roman Catholic), but even then she wouldn't have seen them as anything special because in her own culture (Mexican) they have their own style of painting that doesn't look like this vaguely Italian renaissance painting. The paintings in this thread are "Christian" in as far as they deal with Christian subject matter, but so what? So do a lot of secular paintings which basically applied naturalist/romantic art concepts to Biblical themes. That doesn't mean they belong in church, in place of the very well-established and well-considered iconography of your own church.

I mean...Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel, but does that mean that we have to have a big replica of his naked "David" inside the church because David is recognized by art critics as a masterpiece, and therefore "prettier" than a simple, but theologically profound icon? I'm not even saying you're 'wrong' about finding other styles prettier (because, again, it's all personal opinion), but I definitely do wonder where that line of thinking is headed. I don't think it's anywhere good.

Viv

umm, we fr. Peter, as I can't think of a downside to sunday school right now, I'll just move on.

is sunday school and theological college fair to compare? I'm kinda just throwing that out there because when I was told that people opposed the sunday school movement, my initial reaction was to bring up the school of Alexandria too.

Dzheremi,

you're right, it is a subjective standard. but its obviously a subjective standard thats popularly excepted both inside and outside Egypt.

Coptic art is part of the Egyptian iconographic heritage, but the bazyntinians (sp?) always had 3-D iconography, haven't they? Is that any less orthodox? Or inappropriate for use in churches?

copticuser20

sorry for putting wrong information up...

They are Westernised, based on non-Christian ideas of what art should look like. This is the problem.

It is not a matter of what we like. It is a matter of changing the Orthodox Tradition for something foreign. Natural styles are not proper for a Church.

again, if HH Pope Shenouda said that "This church became a typical coptic orthodox church america, in its alhan, prayer, icons, in every aspect." (http://saint-mary.net/fr bishoy/Pope Eulogy.htm  @ 7:25  min)  then I most definitely have to agree with him.

*note: this is at Abouna Bishoy Demetrious' funeral who was HH consecrated deacon and the first priest to be ordained by HH in America for America so HH does start crying and it may be difficult to understand some parts if you watch the whole video*

Viv

[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10539.msg128198#msg128198 date=1296000393]
sorry for putting wrong information up...

They are Westernised, based on non-Christian ideas of what art should look like. This is the problem.

It is not a matter of what we like. It is a matter of changing the Orthodox Tradition for something foreign. Natural styles are not proper for a Church.

again, if HH Pope Shenouda said that "This church became a typical coptic orthodox church america, in its alhan, prayer, icons, in every aspect." (http://saint-mary.net/fr bishoy/Pope Eulogy.htm  @ 7:25   min)  then I most definitely have to agree with him.


Just a thought. While I agree with you that the 3d icons are totally valid for our use, just because baba shenouda says something doesn't make it law. lol. He's a person that allowed to have opinions too. though, I certainly respect his opinions more than I do most peoples. But nonetheless, the kind of iconography that should be allowed is more a matter of opinion than anything else.

copticuser20

i didnt mean it was a law. i was just saying that they are fine to use. they are coming out of monasteries, not some random new york artist's garage.

dzheremi

Isn't HH's comment about what is typical or standard in America, not necessarily about what ought to be found in Coptic churches everywhere or even in a particular place?

abanoub2000

[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10539.msg128205#msg128205 date=1296001145]
i didnt mean it was a law. i was just saying that they are fine to use. they are coming out of monasteries, not some random new york artist's garage.


I think coptic people have this weird idea that an abouna or a bishop, or even the POPE can't be wrong about something!

Our Icons are just as much part of our history as are hymns! You would not be happy if the hymns were all changed to an english pop song, and you shouldn't be happy that these paintings (i refuse to call them icons) are coming into our churches

Orthodoxy is adhering to the traditions the church fathers established!

PS: Those icons looked gross... sorry just my opinion :D

copticuser20

[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10539.msg128219#msg128219 date=1296003338]
[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10539.msg128205#msg128205 date=1296001145]
i didnt mean it was a law. i was just saying that they are fine to use. they are coming out of monasteries, not some random new york artist's garage.


I think coptic people have this weird idea that an abouna or a bishop, or even the POPE can't be wrong about something!

Our Icons are just as much part of our history as are hymns! You would not be happy if the hymns were all changed to an english pop song, and you shouldn't be happy that these paintings (i refuse to call them icons) are coming into our churches

Orthodoxy is adhering to the traditions the church fathers established!



but weren't these people gifted with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit acts through these holy men? yes maybe they are not always right because they are humans but I am pretty sure that the people who God chose to lead his flock have just a bit of understanding to know what they are saying.

PS: Those icons looked gross... sorry just my opinion :D

gross??? thats a strong word.... these pictures distorted them. if you are ever in New Jersey, visit Saint Mary Church in East Brunswick.  In person, they really are phenomenal.

abanoub2000

My friend was there on kiahk, and the first thing he told me when he came back was "dude the church is so cool, but the icons are weird... they're like, not coptic at all"

But it is just personal taste really... didn't mean to insult you :D

And I don't think the pope meant "wow...these are nice icons, ok  everyone we're all using these from now on"

I think it was like "wow, those are nice icons"

copticuser20

[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10539.msg128223#msg128223 date=1296003931]
And I don't think the pope meant "wow...these are nice icons, ok  everyone we're all using these from now on"

I think it was like "wow, those are nice icons"


again, i never said or meant that. the only reason why i brought up my church's icons is because they are different. i haven't seen another church with natural icons. but by the Pope stating that these are coptic (and if they were not coptic Anba David and Abouna Bishoy Demetrious most definitely would not have allowed them into our church.