Pharoh123, your last post is a classic example of what I have been trying to show. You are mixing up the individual and the belief as if they are the exact same thing, and they are not. We are not condemning the people, we are condemning the belief they adhere to. Sure some of them may have done good things, so what? I mean, I am happy that people do good things regardless of what they believe, as far as religion. Atheists do good things, more often than not they do MORE good things that protestants, at least in the USA. So what is your point? This has nothing to do with their belief system whatsoever because ALL protestant denominations adhere to the doctrine of justification by faith alone, meaning they do not have to do good works. Therefore the majority of them do not. While many atheists are humanists and are generally concerned for the well being of their fellow man, namely because most of them are smart enough to know that capitalism is de-humanizing, while protestants (especially evangelicals) connect themselves to the system.
Try and remember to separate the belief and the individual. When I criticize protestantism, that is exactly what I am doing, criticizing the -ISM not the person. Sometimes I will criticize the creator of specific doctrines, for example Martin Luther and Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. This being because he created both of these erroneous doctrines. Is anything I am saying making sense?
[quote author=pharoh123 link=topic=10823.msg131792#msg131792 date=1298949335] I also never said that Protestants are more accepting
I'm sorry. Please forgive me, Pharoh, for interpreting the following quote from you as saying exactly that:
The truth is some people get alienated from the Church and Protestanism is an easy place to turn to.
I still interpret it that way, because I don't see what else you could mean by writing that, but apparently you meant it in some other way. Could you maybe explain what you mean when you say that "Protestantism is an easy place to turn to", then? I assumed that it is easy in comparison to the Coptic Orthodox Church and its alienating ways (meaning that, yes, Protestantism would be considered more welcoming by comparison, since it doesn't alienate people).
An aside: Heresy is always welcoming, friendly, and easy. That's why it's so inviting. Maybe there is some value in alienating people who have consciously decided, after having known the truth, to instead follow their own sick doctrines and desires, and not the will of God. I thought that this was one of the functions of excommunication and other ecclesiastical punishments. So I don't think alienation is always bad.
The trouble as I see it is this: If you are worried about alienating people to the point where you'll tolerate the intolerable (Protestant or Catholic ideas in your Orthodox Church), then it becomes very difficult to control the hemorrhage of youth heading to Protestant churches and (even worse) bringing back more Protestant ideas to corrupt the Orthodox church and its holy faith from within. You eventually stop being able to see anything as clearly wrong. If I show up to your Church wearing flip-flops and beach shorts, talking loudly on a cellphone, and smoking a cigar, that's clearly inappropriate and no one would accuse the Church of "alienating" me by telling me to stop doing those things, and not to come back unless I can behave as they have a right to expect me to.
But a less outwardly obvious example, say a youth that attends a Protestant service and likes the music, and wants to bring it into the Church so that instead of singing a "Hiten Ni" the people will now sing "I will sing of your love forever" or "Our God is an awesome God". Suddenly some people will say "Hey! Those songs have good sentiments! And we can understand them! They're not in Coptic, they're in English, and our youth know English and feel less alienated by it!" And eventually you WILL be singing those songs, because nobody stood up and said "NO. What we should do instead is use the time that they would've had us use to learn the unorthodox, Protestant songs to TEACH THE YOUTH COPTIC. This way they can feel connected to their heritage and the faith that was passed down to them, not what some Englishman or American wrote for the piano or the guitar in the 1890s or 1970s or whatever."
Trust me. This happened in the Catholic Church, when in the 1960s some of the leadership decided that it was suddenly REALLY important to attract the Protestants, so they (the RC) should make their Mass look more "Protestant-y", and fetishize "participation" (because I guess people couldn't be trusted to actually learn what was going on in the Mass, even though they had books to read from and brains to use), because if they didn't cater to the people they'd end up losing them to Protestantism and its human-centered worship. So now you can't find a RC church that faces East, it causes scandal to kneel for communion, learning Latin makes you look like a Mel Gibson-level extremist, etc. I'm not saying RC traditions are good or to be emulated, I'm just saying that all this more or less disappeared within 40 years, because nobody dared put the breaks on it. Now they're stuck trying to "reform the reform", but it's never going to happen.
I just don't want to see the same happen to the Orthodox Church because people were afraid of alienating those who have horrible, sacrilegious ideas. You guys aren't even stuck with the organizational constraints of the RC (e.g., how to scrap the "Novus Ordo" without seriously putting in jeopardy the whole "Papal Infallibility" thing), so what is the deal? I must say that even as we whine (and I do too, apparently) about Protestant this and Protestant that, what do I find in the hymn lyrics library here at Tasbeha? A great many wonderful Orthodox songs, and an awful lot of Protestant fluff. Why?
(I am well aware that Tasbeha is not the Church, but it is a good illustration of how far the problem has penetrated that even in this place where the majority rightfully condemn this stuff, it's still here and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.)
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10823.msg131803#msg131803 date=1299013473] I agree, and I think Mina is the man to fix that problem. He has control over the hymn lyrics library.
it sounds like narrow minded sectarianism, nothing else! the coptic church does not originate in england or the usa, or other civilized countries. so, why invade the whole world and impose the coptic songs, or despise the non coptic songs in a foreign country????? why not keep the geographical borders to the coptic faith if you are so bothered about the lyrics of your songs??? how about blessing the country of origin of coptic faith with your presence and be happy putting your money where your mouth is?... why live in a protestant country?? for better money, cleaner streets and more comfort?.. or is it about a religious invasion, just like the muslims do?? perhaps it's not long until we see the copts taking protestants to court for infringement of religious rights in a protestant (or at least non coptic) country?...
[quote author=lightening link=topic=10823.msg131821#msg131821 date=1299025828] it sounds like narrow minded sectarianism, nothing else! the coptic church does not originate in england or the usa, or other civilized countries. so, why invade the whole world and impose the coptic songs, or despise the non coptic songs in a foreign country????? why not keep the geographical borders to the coptic faith if you are so bothered about the lyrics of your songs??? how about blessing the country of origin of coptic faith with your presence and be happy putting your money where your mouth is?... why live in a protestant country?? for better money, cleaner streets and more comfort?.. or is it about a religious invasion, just like the muslims do?? perhaps it's not long until we see the copts taking protestants to court for infringement of religious rights in a protestant (or at least non coptic) country?...
This post appears to be built on some very offensive underlying assumptions, and I do not appreciate them. I trust that you are speaking out of ignorance and not malice, my friend, but please...throwing around words like "civilized", "invasion", or for that matter "Protestant country" can be very provocative and hurtful to the Orthodox hosts of this website on which you and I are both guests. Please respect our elders and hosts here by not implying that they are uncivilized or "religious invaders". This is highly inappropriate and offensive.
Please think a little bit more deeply about what you post here. You are an ambassador of sorts for your faith, for better or for worse.
Lightening, You make your argument based on the assumption that protestantism is Christian, this is false. We should be evangelizing more and unlike the protestants we Christianize the current traditions of the people we convert. How exactly what we are doing an invasion? First off, you are a protestant on an Orthodox website pushing protestant doctrine and tearing down the church, second protestantism is no more than 500 years old at best, and all its doctrines are invented by men, not Christ. I think it is you and your superficial religion that are invading my friend.
Your assumptions are typical of a protestant, lacking. There is no basis for anything you have said, just gross assumptions and generalizations supported by what? Nothing. But for protestants the end justifies the means doesnt it? Because you have blatantly lied.
I already agree with you Yoannes, I just thought in the earlier posts we were condemning many protestants for saying this and doing that I just wanted to remind people that they've still done good things, that's it. That's why I used Jesus' parable to explain that some people might not respond correctly to God's calling through their faith but through actions can still do good things. It's absolutely fine to criticize their faith if you wish to.
drzhemi, I believe I may have not explained myself correctly. First of all, it'd be a nightmare if Coptic were removed from our Church; I was infuriated earlier this year when my church decided integrating more English in our liturgies and sing many hymns in English only. I don't want our Church to be cooler or more proactive or whatever, we are Orthodox and our traditions should always stay the same; I like your example about the Roman Catholic Church and I agree with you. However I have noticed I see a lot of incidents in our Church, which has nothing to do with Protestants, that drives people away from the Church. When I say "Protestantism is an easy place to turn to" (sorry, I should have explained this better) I mean you don;t need to go through much of a process to join them and they're very good at attracting converts; it has nothing to do with whether they're more accepting or not, they're just an easy alternative to staying Christian while leaving the Coptic Church.
On another note, ligthening has somewhat of a point, we are living in a Protestant country although I think he's being a bit harsh. But Yoannes, you sound like Islamist in your response, we do not come to the West to evangelize everyone and impose our faith; we should live peacefully and lead by example. The US was founded by Protestants, they have accepted us in their land and have protected us from the persecution we faced in Egypt; they've allowed us to build our churches and practice our faith freely. In the same way we should respect their faith. So please show some restraint and respect because we often forget this fact.
This is getting absurd, very very absurd. Some of these things people are saying just downright disgust me. An Islamist? You have got to be kidding me?
So, i'm just curious, no one is interested in helping with the a YouTube channel then?
You should seriously consider what having an iPhone 4 means. This is a talent that God will judge you on: I gave you an iPhone 4, and how did you use it? Did you play games, or did you use it to help spread the word of God? :P
Anyway, back to the original topic:
Does anyone here agree that sometimes the spiritual traditions, as meaningful and as important as they maybe, do in fact distract us from actually praying??
Is it really necessary, in an already 2.5 hour long liturgy to go and sing Pi-Nishti? Is it really necessary, in a liturgy, for some deacon to do Maro-etchasf in Coptic, and then the SAME deacon to sing the same thing again in English, and then some bright spark to go and say the same verse (maroetchasf) for Bible reading in another language (most likely arabic)?
IS ANY OF THAT necessary??
We hear the Epistle, the Gospel (twice!) - Matins and Liturgy, the Pauline, the Acts the Synaxarium... that's all good... I really am not complaining about that, but it would be nice to have the time to absorb all this.
Its absolutely ruined when someone reads and babbles or is not clear... and I feel chanting doesn't help.
I really would love sometimes to have just listen to these books being read in plain simple English without ANY chanting, and time to reflect it upon them.
When we are not given time to reflect on the Word of God, and its rushed and we are bombarded with more of it that is delivered in a way that's incomprehensible, then we're going to feel that we are there for tradition. We are not enjoying the liturgy.
In fact, there is nothing wrong with a 2.5 hour liturgy. On the contrary - what's wrong is that its 2.5 hours of us not concentrating in that period which is due to the fact that the priest decides to pray in Coptic for parts which he doesn't need to and the Bible readings go past without any assimilation of what has been read.
There is a way around this.
Here is what I propose:
Why not have a liturgy that starts at 11 AM or 12PM Sunday?
You need to be physically ready to stand up and focus for 2.5 hours - right? So what's the point in starting around 8 AM? What do you achieve???
Its Sunday, the entire day is for worship - you might as well take your time. I am a strong believer in that if you are going to do something, its best to do it correctly or not at all.
That's why people go to the protestant churches. Because in the 1 hour they spend there, they've spent 1 hour praying. ONE COMPLETE HOUR focusing and enjoying prayer time.
Whereas if we rush, babble and go through the routines of the liturgy, we've spent 2.5-3 hours just focusing on tradition. We haven't consumed it.. we haven't enjoyed it.
I think the Orthodox Liturgy is VERY VERY enjoyable if you think about what is being done, and offered. Its excellent. But people spoil it for others:
For example: The Deacons are NOT the congregation!! They can't just go off and sing stuff that they KNOW VERY WELL (!!!) that the congregation do not know. That's just cruel. That's beyond cruel. Its selfish. The priest really ought to ask people who can read clearly and articulate clearly to read the Bible readings. I HATE IT when they choose kids or someone who cannot read in public.
There should be 5 minutes - 15 minutes reflexion time after a Bible reading. What's the point otherwise?? And the priest should not just give a sermon about the Gospel, but should include the relevance of the Gospel with the Pauline, the Acts, and the other books read also.
The deacons REALLY need to be good. I mean darn good! If they sing loudly, play the cymbals loudly, or argue or fidget, or misbehave.. its ruined it.
You cannot have that.
In fact, I took a friend of mine to a liturgy once. We both were away from Church for years. I spent nearly 3 days convincing her to come with me to the Church. I finally convinced her to come with me to the liturgy. We went into Church. sat down, then after 10 minutes we looked at each other, and decided to leave again.
We both got a headache.
The deacons were awful. I mean, if i find any of them walking in the street, I could slap them. It was pathetic. They ruined prayer time and drove people away from the Church. Its dumb!
The head deacon thinks its a karaoke competition and INSISTS to sing with the microphone 2 mm from his mouth and the DUMBEST thing ever is that he holds the cymbals close to his mouth and BANGS SO HARD on them that the resulting noise is pure excruciating pain.
I spoke the the priest about this, and he agreed.
So, I don't blame someone for going to a protestant Church IF its to pray. It means that they cannot pray in the Orthodox Church. The only problem is: I hope they don't pick up the protestant spirituality. That's all.
Zoxasi, much of this complaint has to do with how the service makes YOU feel. We have to remember that we are not there to please ourselves, but God. This is probably one of the major reasons people leave churches like this, because they dont feel like they are getting anything out of it, it is not pleasing them. To be honest, if they want to leave, most likely for that reason, good riddance.
A A God Like You Above All All Heaven Declares All in All All Things Are Possible Amazing Grace Amzing Love As we are Gathered Away in a Manger Awesome God
B Be Bold, Be Strong Better is One Day Blessed be Your Name
C Come On and Celebrate Create in me a Clean Heart Crucified with Christ Crumbs of Bread
D Do you Hear Me Praying, Lord?
E Everyday
F Fill My Cup Lord
G God’s Not Dead
H He Paid all My Debts H’es Got the Whole World in His Hands Hear the Angels Sing Here I am Lord Higher Higher His Love Holy Bible Book Divine Humble Yourself
I I Am I Am in the Lord’s Army I Have Decided I Just Wanna Be Sheep I Surrender I Wanna Shine I Will Praise You I’ve Got the Joy Joy Joy Joy I the Lord of Sea and Sky If I were a Butterfly In this Time It’s a Beautiful Day
J Jesus Joy Jesus Loves the Little Children Jesus Puts this song into our hearts Jesus Stands and Says Jumping up and Down
K N/A
L Let There Be Love Let the Fire Like A Good Shepherd Lord I Lift Your Name On High Lord I Thirst Lord Reign in Me
M Majesty Make Way Mary Did You Know More Love Mornin’ Time My God is So Big My Jesus, My Savior My Throbbing Heart
N No Eye Has Seen Nothing Shall Separate Us
O O Be Careful O Come Emmanuel O Great God O Shephards O What a Wonder Once Again Only You Our Father Our Savior has Summoned
R N/A
S Sanctuary Seek Ye First Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God Sheperd of My Soul Shine Jesus Shine Shout to the Lord Silent Night Surrender
T Take Me In Take My Life Thank You God The Battle Belongs to the Lord The Freedom Song The Love I have for you The Mother of the King The Solid Rock The Story of the Greatest Love The Wonderous Story There Can be Miracles They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love Thy Word is a Lamp
U N/A
V Via Dolorosa (THIS ONE IS DEBATABLE)
W We are not From Here We Three Kings We Want to See Jesus Lifted High Were You There When the Saints go Marching While Shepards Watch WHY Worthy is the Lamb
X N/A
Y You Are My All In All You Are My Hiding Place You are the Rock You Raise Me Up
Z N/A
I shamefully confess that I know most-if not all- things songs by heart.
I agree with TITL's list. There are lots of places these songs can be found if someone really wants to find them. They should not be on an Orthodox site.
If we stop short of issuing an anathema against Protestantism as a whole, declaring them to be outside the grace of God and with no access to salvation, all this discussion is useless.
Why do we care if Orthodox visit Protestant places, if it does not affect their salvation? We offer orthodoxy as the better alternative, and not the absolute truth, and therefore we are destined to lose the battle as we have been doing for the past 40 years.
Anba Moussa, the YOUTH bishop, has said long time ago that Protestants do not perish and they get saved. He said that Orthodoxy is the easier way for salvation or the straight way, but protestantism is a "zig-zag" way. Ultimately both lead to salvation. Why should anybody care then?
Isn't such a stance, even if it's not how you or I would express it, made somewhat necessary by the fact that none of us can know with certainty who gets "saved" and who doesn't? (I may have inherited this idea from my discussions with Eastern Orthodox, who embrace the principle that "we know where salvation is, not where it is not"; if the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox follow some different understanding, please forgive and inform me.) I'm not disagreeing with you, Stavro and Fr. Peter, just curious as to what the alternative would be. It seems to me not to be an admission that the Protestant churches are in any way a path to God and salvation, but an admission that we cannot know that God will not save some who are on it in spite of themselves and their wrong choices. I still don't think it's right to say it, because Protestants will look to any word like that as justification for their separation from Orthodoxy.
Besides, "saved" or not, there are other ways to approach this issue that might be a bit more helpful, since anyone who has been attending a Protestant church probably has an extremely warped view of salvation ("of course I'm saved! I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior in front of Pastor so-and-so!"), so they'd probably be somewhat less than likely to listen to the Orthodox viewpoint (if it were otherwise, they wouldn't have gone to a Protestant church to begin with). They should stop going there because it will poison them, filling them with soul-destroying lies, turning them away from correct theology and practice which can ONLY be found in Orthodoxy. You can be devoted to God in Orthodoxy or devoted to yourself (to varying degrees, in recognition of the fact that a Traditionalist Catholic, while just as wrong as any other who isn't Orthodox, can't really be compared to a snake-handling Pentecostal on most levels). That really is it. No matter how much any Protestant sect loves Jesus, they cannot escape His command that if we truly love Him, we will keep His commandments. Not "We will keep the ones we like and that make us feel nice tingly feelings, and throw out the rest." Not "We will keep the ones we understand".
Bluntly, it is impossible to keep the commandments of our Lord as a Protestant. Absolutely impossible.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131863#msg131863 date=1299088076] I agree with TITL's list. There are lots of places these songs can be found if someone really wants to find them. They should not be on an Orthodox site.
i'll work on it....meaning i will ask mikesl first. this is a LOOONG list.
Why do we care if Orthodox visit Protestant places, if it does not affect their salvation?
I do not believe that Protestants or anyone are beyond God's care, and do not take an exclusive view of God's grace. But I do believe that Protestantism, as an ism, is error and so anyone embracing it as an ism rather then leaving it is falling away from the truth.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10823.msg131873#msg131873 date=1299096640] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131863#msg131863 date=1299088076] I agree with TITL's list. There are lots of places these songs can be found if someone really wants to find them. They should not be on an Orthodox site.
i'll work on it....meaning i will ask mikesl first. this is a LOOONG list.
Wasn't "No eye has seen" written by a Copt and wasn't it translated from an Arabic tarneema???? Is the issue with Protestant songs, or any modern way of praising God?
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131874#msg131874 date=1299096880] Hi dzerhemi
I was disagreeing with this...
Why do we care if Orthodox visit Protestant places, if it does not affect their salvation?
I do not believe that Protestants or anyone are beyond God's care, and do not take an exclusive view of God's grace. But I do believe that Protestantism, as an ism, is error and so anyone embracing it as an ism rather then leaving it is falling away from the truth.
Ah, I see. Well yes, I disagree with that too. Thank you for clarifying.
hi, i am too busy with my work at the moment to write a lot, but some people need to chill (see any personal messages for details). i think we should check out the theology of songs before just throwing them out. many songs in english come from catholic traditions or more traditional protestant churches and they have correct theology. certainly songs like 'i wish i was a butterfly' (a sunday school song i didn't even like as a kid!) that focus on individuality and vague feelings of happiness should not be sung in church, but i think we should focus on theologically incorrect songs, rather than just throwing out any songs that have the 'wrong' music.
may God guide us and fill us with His love which gives us real peace :)
Sorry mabsoota, but no Protestant Churches have correct theology.
The Eastern Orthodox corresponded with both Lutheran and Reformed Protestants in the past centuries, long before modern evangelicals, and rejected their teachings as error.
I feel like I am responsible for this idea that we are focusing on musical accompaniment only because I brought up the songs and I wrote negatively about the use of the guitar and the piano. Sorry folks, I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. That's not what I meant to focus on. My concern is certainly with the introduction of unorthodox ways of thinking and doing things. Does the piano or the guitar make people become unorthodox? No. Those are just bits of wood with some chords attached to them. But if they cause the church to discard its traditional hymnody, then they shouldn't be seen as a neutral influence, because that would destructive and bad. And I would go one step further (because I can substantiate this with reference to things I have witnessed in heterodox churches that I would never invite into the Orthodox Church for any reason) and say that even if they don't lead to the complete discard of the traditional hymnody, if they create an environment in which there is one form of worship acceptable for the youth (or whoever wants these "hip" songs and music in worship) and another for the more traditional or older worshipers, then they are also to be stopped as soon as possible. In the Catholic parishes I attended which featured "teen mass" (or even regular mass) vs. "traditional" mass (or Latin mass or whatever; it's all relative), traditional always lost out, even in parishes that weren't youthful. The problem is when you set up this dichotomy where the youth can be lax and not observe traditional forms, you create a parallel system where laxity is encouraged and eventually that laxity in practice invites laxity in belief and when the youth grow up they either continue being lax or feel incredibly "ripped off" that their heritage was discarded in an effort to be "hip". If you feed children nothing but bland platitudes and pleasantries because you don't think they can handle real religion, you starve the coming generation and do not raise spiritually-mature Christians. This goes far beyond what kind of music you play. That's just a symptom of the larger problem, but certainly if it is the first symptom then it's better to "catch it early" and deal with it before it spreads into other areas.
We've actually already had this discussion in another form, about the use of projector screens in churches and the attendant drop in Bible memorization (if I'm remembering correctly). I don't see music as any different. Laxity breeds laxity. Protestant ideas breed Protestantism. It's all the same worldly poison.
I would question any bishop who states that protestantism is Christian and you can achieve salvation through it, this would be to deny Orthodoxy, we should then omit the phrase from our creed "And in ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic church of God" well because simply there are MANY churches. Not only that, we have to deny scripture "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Eph 4:5) or we could just adopt the protestant tactic and change it to "Many Lord's, many faiths, many baptisms". There is no soul on earth who can know the salvation of anyone, including themselves, but what we do know is by what means are proper to assist in salvation, and it is not protestantism. If indeed that particular bishop agrees that protestantism is Christian and you can acheive salvation through it, I am strongly opposed to him and his theology. Again that is IF he said this.
Although, I truly admire your zeal and love for the Orthodox church, I believe you are missing the big picture. Reading through this forum and other similar ones I am reminded of the Pharisees and Jews during the time of Christ. The Lord was in front of them, yet they were blinded and never understood that He stood before them. They were too caught up in protecting the status quo, keeping the laws, protecting their community, their traditions, their inheritance, their scriptures, their prophets, etc. that they missed the Lord who was in front of them. They could not accept this man who required change. They were so used to their routine life. And could one really blame them? It was what kept them strong, it was what kept them alive. The Jews should have been an extinct people. They would not accept anything that threatened their way of life.
Similarly, I feel we as Orthodox people fall into the same trap. We hold on so tightly to the fathers, the traditions, the sayings, our community, the language, the laws, etc. that we miss the grander picture. That Christ is standing before us desiring to gather us together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but we were not willing (Matt. 23:37)
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27
However, at the same time Christ never neglected the prophets, the laws, etc. It is a delicate balance we must find that takes much wisdom. It is a balance that the church struggled with in its infancy. Should we allow Gentiles to become Christians? Do they have to become circumcised?
You all know the answers to those questions. Although, the Spirit led the apostles to expand the church and loosen the strict laws of the Jews they were never completely neglected. It is a fine line that must be walked. We have to hold on to our roots but at the same time be wise about which roots are not really important.
It was very risky for this Jewish sect, "The New Way" (Christians), to allow pagans and Gentiles into the faith. Especially since they would become the majority. How could they stop pagan ideas from infiltrating their pure faith? If they never allowed anything that might have threatened that purity into the church, me and you would still be worshiping some sun god or something.
The church today is faced with the same problem: Do we allow infiltration of different people and ideas so that we can expand the church? The answer must simply be yes. But, it must be done with prudence and by the guidance of the Spirit. If we truly believe Orthodoxy is the truth, then we must do what we can to expand our church, while at the same time retaining our identity and core beliefs.
As I said before, it is a difficult line to walk and only the Spirit can guide us, as it did the apostles.
Do we allow infiltration of different people and ideas so that we can expand the church? The answer must simply be yes.
Of course people are welcome, but non-Orthodox ideas have NEVER been welcome and there must be no infiltration of them. I am sorry but what you are proposing is not Orthodoxy it is Protestantism. There are 30,000 Protestant communities and groups all allowing the 'inflitration' of ideas, but there is only one Orthodox Church, and it has been preserved by excluding non-Orthodox ideas, not adopting them.
I have to say it is rather shocking and disappointing to hear someone who attends an Orthodox Church suggest that adhering to the teaching of the Fathers and the Holy Tradition is Pharasaical. We are not Jews, we do not have a law that must be loosened. We are the Church and the faith of the Church is non-negotiable even while it belongs to every nation and both reflects to some extent and challenges every culture.
Comments
Try and remember to separate the belief and the individual. When I criticize protestantism, that is exactly what I am doing, criticizing the -ISM not the person. Sometimes I will criticize the creator of specific doctrines, for example Martin Luther and Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. This being because he created both of these erroneous doctrines. Is anything I am saying making sense?
I also never said that Protestants are more accepting
I'm sorry. Please forgive me, Pharoh, for interpreting the following quote from you as saying exactly that: I still interpret it that way, because I don't see what else you could mean by writing that, but apparently you meant it in some other way. Could you maybe explain what you mean when you say that "Protestantism is an easy place to turn to", then? I assumed that it is easy in comparison to the Coptic Orthodox Church and its alienating ways (meaning that, yes, Protestantism would be considered more welcoming by comparison, since it doesn't alienate people).
An aside: Heresy is always welcoming, friendly, and easy. That's why it's so inviting. Maybe there is some value in alienating people who have consciously decided, after having known the truth, to instead follow their own sick doctrines and desires, and not the will of God. I thought that this was one of the functions of excommunication and other ecclesiastical punishments. So I don't think alienation is always bad.
The trouble as I see it is this: If you are worried about alienating people to the point where you'll tolerate the intolerable (Protestant or Catholic ideas in your Orthodox Church), then it becomes very difficult to control the hemorrhage of youth heading to Protestant churches and (even worse) bringing back more Protestant ideas to corrupt the Orthodox church and its holy faith from within. You eventually stop being able to see anything as clearly wrong. If I show up to your Church wearing flip-flops and beach shorts, talking loudly on a cellphone, and smoking a cigar, that's clearly inappropriate and no one would accuse the Church of "alienating" me by telling me to stop doing those things, and not to come back unless I can behave as they have a right to expect me to.
But a less outwardly obvious example, say a youth that attends a Protestant service and likes the music, and wants to bring it into the Church so that instead of singing a "Hiten Ni" the people will now sing "I will sing of your love forever" or "Our God is an awesome God". Suddenly some people will say "Hey! Those songs have good sentiments! And we can understand them! They're not in Coptic, they're in English, and our youth know English and feel less alienated by it!" And eventually you WILL be singing those songs, because nobody stood up and said "NO. What we should do instead is use the time that they would've had us use to learn the unorthodox, Protestant songs to TEACH THE YOUTH COPTIC. This way they can feel connected to their heritage and the faith that was passed down to them, not what some Englishman or American wrote for the piano or the guitar in the 1890s or 1970s or whatever."
Trust me. This happened in the Catholic Church, when in the 1960s some of the leadership decided that it was suddenly REALLY important to attract the Protestants, so they (the RC) should make their Mass look more "Protestant-y", and fetishize "participation" (because I guess people couldn't be trusted to actually learn what was going on in the Mass, even though they had books to read from and brains to use), because if they didn't cater to the people they'd end up losing them to Protestantism and its human-centered worship. So now you can't find a RC church that faces East, it causes scandal to kneel for communion, learning Latin makes you look like a Mel Gibson-level extremist, etc. I'm not saying RC traditions are good or to be emulated, I'm just saying that all this more or less disappeared within 40 years, because nobody dared put the breaks on it. Now they're stuck trying to "reform the reform", but it's never going to happen.
I just don't want to see the same happen to the Orthodox Church because people were afraid of alienating those who have horrible, sacrilegious ideas. You guys aren't even stuck with the organizational constraints of the RC (e.g., how to scrap the "Novus Ordo" without seriously putting in jeopardy the whole "Papal Infallibility" thing), so what is the deal? I must say that even as we whine (and I do too, apparently) about Protestant this and Protestant that, what do I find in the hymn lyrics library here at Tasbeha? A great many wonderful Orthodox songs, and an awful lot of Protestant fluff. Why?
(I am well aware that Tasbeha is not the Church, but it is a good illustration of how far the problem has penetrated that even in this place where the majority rightfully condemn this stuff, it's still here and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.)
I agree, and I think Mina is the man to fix that problem. He has control over the hymn lyrics library.
huh?!
Read dzheremi's post. lol
why not keep the geographical borders to the coptic faith if you are so bothered about the lyrics of your songs??? how about blessing the country of origin of coptic faith with your presence and be happy putting your money where your mouth is?...
why live in a protestant country?? for better money, cleaner streets and more comfort?.. or is it about a religious invasion, just like the muslims do??
perhaps it's not long until we see the copts taking protestants to court for infringement of religious rights in a protestant (or at least non coptic) country?...
it sounds like narrow minded sectarianism, nothing else! the coptic church does not originate in england or the usa, or other civilized countries. so, why invade the whole world and impose the coptic songs, or despise the non coptic songs in a foreign country?????
why not keep the geographical borders to the coptic faith if you are so bothered about the lyrics of your songs??? how about blessing the country of origin of coptic faith with your presence and be happy putting your money where your mouth is?...
why live in a protestant country?? for better money, cleaner streets and more comfort?.. or is it about a religious invasion, just like the muslims do??
perhaps it's not long until we see the copts taking protestants to court for infringement of religious rights in a protestant (or at least non coptic) country?...
This post appears to be built on some very offensive underlying assumptions, and I do not appreciate them. I trust that you are speaking out of ignorance and not malice, my friend, but please...throwing around words like "civilized", "invasion", or for that matter "Protestant country" can be very provocative and hurtful to the Orthodox hosts of this website on which you and I are both guests. Please respect our elders and hosts here by not implying that they are uncivilized or "religious invaders". This is highly inappropriate and offensive.
Please think a little bit more deeply about what you post here. You are an ambassador of sorts for your faith, for better or for worse.
Your assumptions are typical of a protestant, lacking. There is no basis for anything you have said, just gross assumptions and generalizations supported by what? Nothing. But for protestants the end justifies the means doesnt it? Because you have blatantly lied.
drzhemi, I believe I may have not explained myself correctly. First of all, it'd be a nightmare if Coptic were removed from our Church; I was infuriated earlier this year when my church decided integrating more English in our liturgies and sing many hymns in English only. I don't want our Church to be cooler or more proactive or whatever, we are Orthodox and our traditions should always stay the same; I like your example about the Roman Catholic Church and I agree with you. However I have noticed I see a lot of incidents in our Church, which has nothing to do with Protestants, that drives people away from the Church. When I say "Protestantism is an easy place to turn to" (sorry, I should have explained this better) I mean you don;t need to go through much of a process to join them and they're very good at attracting converts; it has nothing to do with whether they're more accepting or not, they're just an easy alternative to staying Christian while leaving the Coptic Church.
On another note, ligthening has somewhat of a point, we are living in a Protestant country although I think he's being a bit harsh. But Yoannes, you sound like Islamist in your response, we do not come to the West to evangelize everyone and impose our faith; we should live peacefully and lead by example. The US was founded by Protestants, they have accepted us in their land and have protected us from the persecution we faced in Egypt; they've allowed us to build our churches and practice our faith freely. In the same way we should respect their faith. So please show some restraint and respect because we often forget this fact.
Take out those Protestant songs from the library.
Read dzheremi's post. lol
send me a list of what is not "approved" by church fathers (meaning priests).
You should seriously consider what having an iPhone 4 means. This is a talent that God will judge you on: I gave you an iPhone 4, and how did you use it? Did you play games, or did you use it to help spread the word of God?
:P
Anyway, back to the original topic:
Does anyone here agree that sometimes the spiritual traditions, as meaningful and as important as they maybe, do in fact distract us from actually praying??
Is it really necessary, in an already 2.5 hour long liturgy to go and sing Pi-Nishti?
Is it really necessary, in a liturgy, for some deacon to do Maro-etchasf in Coptic, and then the SAME deacon to sing the same thing again in English, and then some bright spark to go and say the same verse (maroetchasf) for Bible reading in another language (most likely arabic)?
IS ANY OF THAT necessary??
We hear the Epistle, the Gospel (twice!) - Matins and Liturgy, the Pauline, the Acts the Synaxarium... that's all good... I really am not complaining about that, but it would be nice to have the time to absorb all this.
Its absolutely ruined when someone reads and babbles or is not clear... and I feel chanting doesn't help.
I really would love sometimes to have just listen to these books being read in plain simple English without ANY chanting, and time to reflect it upon them.
When we are not given time to reflect on the Word of God, and its rushed and we are bombarded with more of it that is delivered in a way that's incomprehensible, then we're going to feel that we are there for tradition. We are not enjoying the liturgy.
In fact, there is nothing wrong with a 2.5 hour liturgy. On the contrary - what's wrong is that its 2.5 hours of us not concentrating in that period which is due to the fact that the priest decides to pray in Coptic for parts which he doesn't need to and the Bible readings go past without any assimilation of what has been read.
There is a way around this.
Here is what I propose:
Why not have a liturgy that starts at 11 AM or 12PM Sunday?
You need to be physically ready to stand up and focus for 2.5 hours - right? So what's the point in starting around 8 AM? What do you achieve???
Its Sunday, the entire day is for worship - you might as well take your time. I am a strong believer in that if you are going to do something, its best to do it correctly or not at all.
That's why people go to the protestant churches. Because in the 1 hour they spend there, they've spent 1 hour praying. ONE COMPLETE HOUR focusing and enjoying prayer time.
Whereas if we rush, babble and go through the routines of the liturgy, we've spent 2.5-3 hours just focusing on tradition. We haven't consumed it.. we haven't enjoyed it.
I think the Orthodox Liturgy is VERY VERY enjoyable if you think about what is being done, and offered. Its excellent. But people spoil it for others:
For example: The Deacons are NOT the congregation!! They can't just go off and sing stuff that they KNOW VERY WELL (!!!) that the congregation do not know. That's just cruel. That's beyond cruel. Its selfish.
The priest really ought to ask people who can read clearly and articulate clearly to read the Bible readings. I HATE IT when they choose kids or someone who cannot read in public.
There should be 5 minutes - 15 minutes reflexion time after a Bible reading. What's the point otherwise?? And the priest should not just give a sermon about the Gospel, but should include the relevance of the Gospel with the Pauline, the Acts, and the other books read also.
The deacons REALLY need to be good. I mean darn good! If they sing loudly, play the cymbals loudly, or argue or fidget, or misbehave.. its ruined it.
You cannot have that.
In fact, I took a friend of mine to a liturgy once. We both were away from Church for years. I spent nearly 3 days convincing her to come with me to the Church. I finally convinced her to come with me to the liturgy. We went into Church. sat down, then after 10 minutes we looked at each other, and decided to leave again.
We both got a headache.
The deacons were awful. I mean, if i find any of them walking in the street, I could slap them. It was pathetic. They ruined prayer time and drove people away from the Church. Its dumb!
The head deacon thinks its a karaoke competition and INSISTS to sing with the microphone 2 mm from his mouth and the DUMBEST thing ever is that he holds the cymbals close to his mouth and BANGS SO HARD on them that the resulting noise is pure excruciating pain.
I spoke the the priest about this, and he agreed.
So, I don't blame someone for going to a protestant Church IF its to pray. It means that they cannot pray in the Orthodox Church. The only problem is: I hope they don't pick up the protestant spirituality. That's all.
REMOVE:
A
A God Like You
Above All
All Heaven Declares
All in All
All Things Are Possible
Amazing Grace
Amzing Love
As we are Gathered
Away in a Manger
Awesome God
B
Be Bold, Be Strong
Better is One Day
Blessed be Your Name
C
Come On and Celebrate
Create in me a Clean Heart
Crucified with Christ
Crumbs of Bread
D
Do you Hear Me Praying, Lord?
E
Everyday
F
Fill My Cup Lord
G
God’s Not Dead
H
He Paid all My Debts
H’es Got the Whole World in His Hands
Hear the Angels Sing
Here I am Lord
Higher Higher
His Love
Holy Bible Book Divine
Humble Yourself
I
I Am
I Am in the Lord’s Army
I Have Decided
I Just Wanna Be Sheep
I Surrender
I Wanna Shine
I Will Praise You
I’ve Got the Joy Joy Joy Joy
I the Lord of Sea and Sky
If I were a Butterfly
In this Time
It’s a Beautiful Day
J
Jesus Joy
Jesus Loves the Little Children
Jesus Puts this song into our hearts
Jesus Stands and Says
Jumping up and Down
K
N/A
L
Let There Be Love
Let the Fire
Like A Good Shepherd
Lord I Lift Your Name On High
Lord I Thirst
Lord Reign in Me
M
Majesty
Make Way
Mary Did You Know
More Love
Mornin’ Time
My God is So Big
My Jesus, My Savior
My Throbbing Heart
N
No Eye Has Seen
Nothing Shall Separate Us
O
O Be Careful
O Come Emmanuel
O Great God
O Shephards
O What a Wonder
Once Again
Only You
Our Father
Our Savior has Summoned
R
N/A
S
Sanctuary
Seek Ye First
Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God
Sheperd of My Soul
Shine Jesus Shine
Shout to the Lord
Silent Night
Surrender
T
Take Me In
Take My Life
Thank You God
The Battle Belongs to the Lord
The Freedom Song
The Love I have for you
The Mother of the King
The Solid Rock
The Story of the Greatest Love
The Wonderous Story
There Can be Miracles
They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love
Thy Word is a Lamp
U
N/A
V
Via Dolorosa (THIS ONE IS DEBATABLE)
W
We are not From Here
We Three Kings
We Want to See Jesus Lifted High
Were You There
When the Saints go Marching
While Shepards Watch
WHY
Worthy is the Lamb
X
N/A
Y
You Are My All In All
You Are My Hiding Place
You are the Rock
You Raise Me Up
Z
N/A
I shamefully confess that I know most-if not all- things songs by heart.
Most of us are familiar with it from "Voices of Joy" produced by St. Mary & Archangel Michael's COC in Florida.
I personally did not know it was originally Protestant until recently. Sounds pretty Orthodox to me--but style and lyrics.
Why do we care if Orthodox visit Protestant places, if it does not affect their salvation? We offer orthodoxy as the better alternative, and not the absolute truth, and therefore we are destined to lose the battle as we have been doing for the past 40 years.
Anba Moussa, the YOUTH bishop, has said long time ago that Protestants do not perish and they get saved. He said that Orthodoxy is the easier way for salvation or the straight way, but protestantism is a "zig-zag" way. Ultimately both lead to salvation. Why should anybody care then?
Besides, "saved" or not, there are other ways to approach this issue that might be a bit more helpful, since anyone who has been attending a Protestant church probably has an extremely warped view of salvation ("of course I'm saved! I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior in front of Pastor so-and-so!"), so they'd probably be somewhat less than likely to listen to the Orthodox viewpoint (if it were otherwise, they wouldn't have gone to a Protestant church to begin with). They should stop going there because it will poison them, filling them with soul-destroying lies, turning them away from correct theology and practice which can ONLY be found in Orthodoxy. You can be devoted to God in Orthodoxy or devoted to yourself (to varying degrees, in recognition of the fact that a Traditionalist Catholic, while just as wrong as any other who isn't Orthodox, can't really be compared to a snake-handling Pentecostal on most levels). That really is it. No matter how much any Protestant sect loves Jesus, they cannot escape His command that if we truly love Him, we will keep His commandments. Not "We will keep the ones we like and that make us feel nice tingly feelings, and throw out the rest." Not "We will keep the ones we understand".
Bluntly, it is impossible to keep the commandments of our Lord as a Protestant. Absolutely impossible.
I agree with TITL's list. There are lots of places these songs can be found if someone really wants to find them. They should not be on an Orthodox site.
i'll work on it....meaning i will ask mikesl first. this is a LOOONG list.
I was disagreeing with this...
Why do we care if Orthodox visit Protestant places, if it does not affect their salvation?
I do not believe that Protestants or anyone are beyond God's care, and do not take an exclusive view of God's grace. But I do believe that Protestantism, as an ism, is error and so anyone embracing it as an ism rather then leaving it is falling away from the truth.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131863#msg131863 date=1299088076]
I agree with TITL's list. There are lots of places these songs can be found if someone really wants to find them. They should not be on an Orthodox site.
i'll work on it....meaning i will ask mikesl first. this is a LOOONG list.
Wasn't "No eye has seen" written by a Copt and wasn't it translated from an Arabic tarneema????
Is the issue with Protestant songs, or any modern way of praising God?
Hi dzerhemi
I was disagreeing with this...
Why do we care if Orthodox visit Protestant places, if it does not affect their salvation?
I do not believe that Protestants or anyone are beyond God's care, and do not take an exclusive view of God's grace. But I do believe that Protestantism, as an ism, is error and so anyone embracing it as an ism rather then leaving it is falling away from the truth.
Ah, I see. Well yes, I disagree with that too. Thank you for clarifying.
i think we should check out the theology of songs before just throwing them out. many songs in english come from catholic traditions or more traditional protestant churches and they have correct theology.
certainly songs like 'i wish i was a butterfly' (a sunday school song i didn't even like as a kid!) that focus on individuality and vague feelings of happiness should not be sung in church, but i think we should focus on theologically incorrect songs, rather than just throwing out any songs that have the 'wrong' music.
may God guide us and fill us with His love which gives us real peace
:)
The Eastern Orthodox corresponded with both Lutheran and Reformed Protestants in the past centuries, long before modern evangelicals, and rejected their teachings as error.
We've actually already had this discussion in another form, about the use of projector screens in churches and the attendant drop in Bible memorization (if I'm remembering correctly). I don't see music as any different. Laxity breeds laxity. Protestant ideas breed Protestantism. It's all the same worldly poison.
Although, I truly admire your zeal and love for the Orthodox church, I believe you are missing the big picture. Reading through this forum and other similar ones I am reminded of the Pharisees and Jews during the time of Christ. The Lord was in front of them, yet they were blinded and never understood that He stood before them. They were too caught up in protecting the status quo, keeping the laws, protecting their community, their traditions, their inheritance, their scriptures, their prophets, etc. that they missed the Lord who was in front of them. They could not accept this man who required change. They were so used to their routine life. And could one really blame them? It was what kept them strong, it was what kept them alive. The Jews should have been an extinct people. They would not accept anything that threatened their way of life.
Similarly, I feel we as Orthodox people fall into the same trap. We hold on so tightly to the fathers, the traditions, the sayings, our community, the language, the laws, etc. that we miss the grander picture. That Christ is standing before us desiring to gather us together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but we were not willing (Matt. 23:37)
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27
However, at the same time Christ never neglected the prophets, the laws, etc. It is a delicate balance we must find that takes much wisdom. It is a balance that the church struggled with in its infancy. Should we allow Gentiles to become Christians? Do they have to become circumcised?
You all know the answers to those questions. Although, the Spirit led the apostles to expand the church and loosen the strict laws of the Jews they were never completely neglected. It is a fine line that must be walked. We have to hold on to our roots but at the same time be wise about which roots are not really important.
It was very risky for this Jewish sect, "The New Way" (Christians), to allow pagans and Gentiles into the faith. Especially since they would become the majority. How could they stop pagan ideas from infiltrating their pure faith? If they never allowed anything that might have threatened that purity into the church, me and you would still be worshiping some sun god or something.
The church today is faced with the same problem: Do we allow infiltration of different people and ideas so that we can expand the church? The answer must simply be yes. But, it must be done with prudence and by the guidance of the Spirit. If we truly believe Orthodoxy is the truth, then we must do what we can to expand our church, while at the same time retaining our identity and core beliefs.
As I said before, it is a difficult line to walk and only the Spirit can guide us, as it did the apostles.
Of course people are welcome, but non-Orthodox ideas have NEVER been welcome and there must be no infiltration of them. I am sorry but what you are proposing is not Orthodoxy it is Protestantism. There are 30,000 Protestant communities and groups all allowing the 'inflitration' of ideas, but there is only one Orthodox Church, and it has been preserved by excluding non-Orthodox ideas, not adopting them.
I have to say it is rather shocking and disappointing to hear someone who attends an Orthodox Church suggest that adhering to the teaching of the Fathers and the Holy Tradition is Pharasaical. We are not Jews, we do not have a law that must be loosened. We are the Church and the faith of the Church is non-negotiable even while it belongs to every nation and both reflects to some extent and challenges every culture.
Father Peter