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Jesus's Sexuality
hello all,
i would liek to wish condolences to sylvias family may god repose their souls
ok i have a question something just came to mind to me did jesus have a sexuality?of course i know he did not get bad thoughts or sin but did he have a sexuality because if he didnt wouldnt that make him not fully human? ive been really confused can anyone enlighten me?
aghape,
chris
P.S im not a heretic im just asking a question and ive already been accused of beinga heretic for asking that question i just wanna know i hold steadfast to orthodox doctrine
i would liek to wish condolences to sylvias family may god repose their souls
ok i have a question something just came to mind to me did jesus have a sexuality?of course i know he did not get bad thoughts or sin but did he have a sexuality because if he didnt wouldnt that make him not fully human? ive been really confused can anyone enlighten me?
aghape,
chris
P.S im not a heretic im just asking a question and ive already been accused of beinga heretic for asking that question i just wanna know i hold steadfast to orthodox doctrine
Comments
The answer is yes, Christ did have a sexuality, He was a male with a natural sex drive like any other creature. He was the first among virgins so He was trully human and an example for how to be pure while being a sexual being living in virginity.
Our monks avoid sexual temptation by an act of grace where their desires are filled in a miraculous and pure way. No one knows exactly how this is except that it doesn't involve them denying themselves and their natural desire. When I say natural desire, I mean that man is a being with hormones and is designed to generate sexual feelings by nature. Since monks have taken a vow of chasitiy they cannot fill this need through the normal means that people would so God miraculously provides for them by grace an answer to the callings of the hormones in the body without them sinning or feeling the need to procreate and commit sin. Christ was the first among virgins so He was perfected in this special gift.
I hope this helps.
God bless,
CS
but as human beings we always like to justify things to be understandable and acceptable to our limited mind.
so how jesus lived as human being without sexual drive? If you think of an achivment in your life what will you do? you will work very hard to achive your target by devoting your mind and efforts toward it to be achived. it may be easy for some but not easy for others according to their hard willings to achive. If jesus Christ has power over nature, like stopping the sea storms, and walk on the water surface, and cure non-curable illness' and forgive sins, and raise the dead people, do you think he need sexual drive to be happy or what he is going to achive from sex, or ask yourself why Mary (his mother) got pregnenat by the holy spirt and not in the human being way. The monks are copying the life of Jesus Christ by living as virgins without sex throught their whole lifes, and their must be a lot of different ways of achiving this, and they are all happy with God. Sex is not every thing and can easly be controlled if you know how.
The monks strive and work towards the discipline of chastity. There is no mystical gift for this abstinence other than the strength from God to carry forward. They do not have some exemption from human feelings.
Unfortunately, and throughout history, there have been embarassing and shameful examples of detractions of monks from the fidelity to the chaste life. If you read the "Sayings of the Desert Fathers" this is quite apparent.
I think Copticsoldier's intent was to show the deep Grace that comes from the life of discipline and struggle that is in living in the monastic orders, but nonetheless these monks are human.
In regard to Our Dear Lord and Savior, He chooses to use the Nancy
Reagan comment: 'just say no'. Our Lord is pure in His Thoughts. He was tempted but never entertained the issue of detraction from the Will of the Father. He said no to the devil, and he said no to the urgings of people around Him to do pretentious acts, and He most certainly said no to any form of sin.
Sexuality is a good thing as long as it is within the context of carrying out the Divine Will of proper and holy procriation. One has to understand the drives that are within us, control them, and carry forward with that knowledge to seek out a proper and God-fearing mate. The ultimate goal is to raise good children for which there will be an accounting before God.
St. Paul, in paraphrase identifies the life of celibacy as good and the married life as being good. One has to choose what is suitable for their life relative to the Grace and Guidance of God
God bless,
CS
he said that both were good and holy infront of the Lord. (i dont think he stressed that one was 'better' than the other)
to live in the desert and devote your life to God is a calling and it is hard, not everyone can do it.
likewise, to marry, have a family and raise children in God's fear and love isn't easy either (however more common). there are (unfortunately) many parents who cannot properly raise their children...
God did tell us in Matthew 19:29: "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.".... but i dont think that those who chose to raise a family in God's fear are any less.....
and i think that verse can be taken-not-so literally as well as literally.... it could be actually leaving everyone phsycically, or being with them but leaving their earthly actions.... or somthing like that.....
anyways, just my few thoughts on the whole celibacy and marriage thing....
take care and God bless
ooops.... lol sorry ........... :-[
i should pay more attention to the sermon and my bible....
thanks for the correction!
take care and God bless
Our Lord makes this very clear when he says, "Not all men can accept this precept, but only those to whom it is given. . . . There are those who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this let him receive it" (Matt. 19:11–12).
it's all slowly coming together in here **points to head**
..... :D
take care and God bless
God bless!
Even if this theory is correct, and im aware of the evidence that suggests this, yet respectfully disagree - the fact remains, this does not bear on the relevance of the teaching itself. It's message is universal and for all times; we are to focus on our salvation regardless of when we may "expect" Christ to come, for no one truly knows, nor will ever know when He is to come (Matt. 24:36, Mark 13:32). The life of celibacy is clearly a more "preferable" path than that of a married life, yet both are nonetheless held in esteem, and we are told to choose the one which will help us achieve our salvation, for though the gift of celibacy is more favourable "not all men can accept this precept" (Matt. 19:11-12), for some have passions that are better off being controlled within the holy unity of matrimony as St Paul reasons, rather than sending a man to his destruction.
I think my comments have been been mistaken for a few reasons so firstly I would like to affirm both Jesus's purity from birth to death and freedom from from the passion of the flesh by nature and not by grace and work in the saints. These were not subject matters I attempted to touch on in my post and I do not neglect them as being important factors but they were not relevent for the point I was trying to make.
The first thing I want to say is that when I was speaking about the Lord, when I mentioned that Jesus was a male with a normal sex drive, I was speaking biologically not psychologically. This was not a reference to either the probability of Him sinning (which is not possible because God cannot sin) or the probability of Him choosing to become sexually active. Christ as st. Irenaeus taught was in no need of procreating because He was the creator and did not need procreation as a means of creating children. I would also affirm that He never came to a point in His life where He chose celebacy over marriage, marriage was never a possibility in the scheme of His life as He was a nazarite from the womb and knew His eternal purpose.
When I called Christ a sexual being, I was not making a statement about Him being sexually active or suffering the same trials and tribulations we do with our fallen nature.
The word sexual has different meanings here is an example when the word is used to describe the ascetic St. Sarah who was also a virgin by Laura Swan in The Forgotten Desert Mothers.The author tells us this women is an ascetic and was praising her, the meaning of sexuality in the context was that she knew as a women, she had strengths men don't have and vice versa. It is not a reference to sexual activity. When I said Christ was a sexual being I very simply meant nothing more than He was male, which is simply His sex. To be sexual means to have a sex as the dictionary definiton affirms: I'm surprised it was taken with its negative or immoral connotations in mind.
St. Cyril in defending the church against the Nestorians demonstrated that Christ was not tainted by the original sin (the netorians claimed he must have the original sin in order for us to be saved). St Cyril said that Christ could not sin and even the faintest idea of Christ sinning or being tempted is impossible.
The whole point of the post was actually to touch on something ilovesaintmark said This means (and I have to break the word temptation down because it has two meanings. Metropolitan Bishoy explains this: This shows Christ was not tempted and this is not a contradiction. If I use an example of say Christ hungering. The word tempted here can either have 2 meanings. It can mean that He experienced a human bodily need or it can mean compulsion to an commit an evil desire. Christs temptations can be former but not the latter.
Lastly, anba moussa says about sexual desire that: I want to illustrate here than God created the sexual instinct and it is a gift given to all men with a good purpose. Now I feel I have an adequate platform to go on to what I was actually meaning in the second half of my post.
What I was trying to show is that on a biological level, there is a natural urge in man or non-sinful desire to procreate. This is something good from God and for us to thing that virginity means fighting a gift from God and struggling until it comes into submission then that sounds like God is helping us defeat a good gift He has given to us, heaven forbid that that is what the life of virginity is actually about!
What I meant was God stops the desire and this is how people become pure, it is not the result of works or struggle, it is a gift from God where when one reaches a stage of Grace, God naturally fills the desire so Grace fills the need in the person and they become whole rather than Grace helping a man fight himself and his God given gifts. This is the story of the desert fathers how God comes in a moment and takes away the sinful desire forever because we know that saints had the sin stopped like st. sarah 14 years, st. moses 16 st. mary of egypt 15. The struggle is to teach us how we are unable to bring our bodies into harmony, only grace makes us whole. There are also saints who testified this and I can provide some quotes if need be but the fathers tesitify that sexual purity is only granted by Grace and isn't the result of struggle or work.
Lastly. Does this mean Christ experience sexual desire? The answer is obviously no. He possessed the perfection of grace by nature and beyond and did not require struggle to attain it. In a perfect world a man is only permitted to feel sexual desire for his or her wife. In light of this we know Christ would obviously have lived the totally pure life of chastity all His days free from temptation and vice.
I hope this clarifies what I was meaning.
God bless,
CS
St. Paul mentions this because he and the early church believed Christ would return very soon, as in within a few years. therefore, St. Paul urges Christians to focus on their salvation rather than burden themselves with earthly cares such as a family, providing for them, etc.. this was told me to by a priest who studied theology extensively. he also said what abouna anastasi said: that both marriage and celibate life are a calling, and in order to follow that calling we need to devote our lives to Christ now, and hear what He's telling us so we can choose the right life for ourselves, together with Him.
God bless!
Hey there,
I have to agree with Iqbal, the thing we have to aknowledge here is that St. Paul is not using these statements as a way of showing monasticism is better than marriage. In the early church there were gnostics that used to say that marriage was corrupt and he defended the church against them saying marriage was in some ways better than monasticism. In the words of St. Clement of Alexandria (a celibate himself) who comments on these verses: The verses you quoted by St. Paul are mentioned by St. Clement who says that these verses are specifically for people who are already celebates or "he who has confessed his intention of being celebate." He also goes on to say: I also recall that once anba moussa told us that he wouldn't be surprised if a married person loves God more than a monk. This is because marriage is a school of love and was created by God as one of 2 parallel systems God created to help us be saved, either as a virgin or as a couple helping each other all the way. In the mind of St. Clement, there are advantages and disadvantages to both and it would be wrong to say that one is better than the other.
God bless,
CS
It doesnt seem clear at all that St Paul is addressing those who have already made a vow to celibacy, but rather those who are confronted with the choice. He gives us valid reason for choosing marriage over celibacy, according to the condition of man, but the celibate state is viewed in higher esteem. It is, as Christ said, a precept that not all are capable of receiving, which indicates that it is something "special" in a sense - a "given" gift to those are able to accept it.
The verses that were rendered are well known and well remembered. CS original thread was quite poignant in its comments yet for the average to surmise may have left gaps. I don't think anyone was saying that CS had erred in any way. CS is very strong in his presentation in the other points made.
I believe St. Paul, in his effect, is taken beyond his meanings to make something better than the other. Moreover, in regard to the reference to the verse from St. Matthew, Origen, took this verse to excess and placed himself contrary to the Will of God and the Church.
The point I was trying to make previously is that we, as Orthodox, sometimes sound of the "zapped in grace" which is a turn-off to others that are watching our example. There are different expressions of the same concept, yet one may lean towards certain terminology that fosters connotations beyond what is necessary. Our Father (God the Almighty) presents use with "invitations" and we as human beings have the choice to "accept" or "refuse". We are free living, free thinking, and beyond the bounds of predestination. We are all equal, yet we have different talents. We are presented with different talents, and it us up to us to decide what we do with those talents. In the end there are rewards and consequences for those choices. One may also say: "graces" and "condemnations". Remember: the "Parable of the Talents (10,5,1)".
Christ, Our Lord, was truly tempted by Satan on the mountain as referenced in the Holy Scriptures, yet He refused the temptation.
I believe, throughout history, there has been much ink spilled about which is better: "celibacy" vs. the "married life". They are equally fine. There are considerable over-interpretations of verses in the New Testament--specifically, St. Matthew and St. Paul. Yet, let us not forget Genesis, where God told Adam and Eve to 'go forth and multiply'. As an interpretative point this precedes and can be conceived as a precedence over the other verses cited, because He created them with a purpose to procreate.
Let us not forget the out-of-hand times of St. Matthew and St. Paul lived. The influences of the Roman Empire were in excess, including debauchery, orgies, etc. Certainly, the sinful aspect to sexuality was being expressed. Their points were to marshal people away from these acts and to solidify them into two proper channels of conduct.
Yes, jesus was a male human with the same sex drive the same one we have, except he was in control.
AND it doesnt make you a hertic for asking, it makes you a hertic if you hold on to your ffalse ideas.
Please forgive me
:)