Confusing matter..ghosts: can they visit you?

marmar357

Hi,

Since this  http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,9933.0.html, didn't answer my question fully, i created a new one, cause I'm a bit confused.
Without doubt all of you heard about that issue about thee green horse, and ghosts, and stuff.
Well, I commented once on a video  of someone i know, and people started talking about the existence of ghosts. Following the answer in the following topic, I have understand that they do exists, but not if the term means 'spirits of people who have died.'
[quote author=CopticStrength link=topic=9933.msg121579#msg121579 date=1288476179]

Question: "What does the Bible say about ghosts / hauntings?"

Answer: Is there such a thing as ghosts? The answer to this question depends on what precisely is meant by the term “ghosts.” If the term means “spirit beings,” the answer is a qualified “yes.” If the term means “spirits of people who have died,” the answer is “no.” The Bible makes it abundantly clear that there are spirit beings, both good and evil. But the Bible negates the idea that the spirits of deceased human beings can remain on earth and “haunt” the living.

[/quote]

However, some people claim that they have seen ghosts, including ghosts of people who have died and even talked to them. I find this a bit weird, and I don't know if this is accepted in the orthodox church or not.
If u look at this video: http://www.zie.nl/video/opmerkelijk/Jongen-wordt-aangevallen-door-spook/m1fzrt1f5qqu
U can see a boy (in Africa i guess) who says that a friend of him who died, teases him often and u can see in the video how the guy when he sits on a chair, has been pulled from his chair, and also when he stood his leg has been pulled. Personally, it seems he is just kidding and trying to play a game with people, but it seems that his family is serious about it.

Now, this is only about someone in the news.
But what about the people to I spoke? I have no evidence, but they talked kinda serious about it.
A relative of a martyr in Nagahamadi, says that 2 martyrs of nagahamdi visited the person! How strange!?
Someone else claimed, that their grandma visited he and that on their work, there are 2 childish ghosts who let themselves hear by crying and by scratching with their nails on the door.

What do u think?

Gb

mabsoota

i have some experience of evil spirits, mainly because i grew up in a town with plenty of witches and the neighbour used to do tarot (future telling) cards and cast spells against Christians.

firstly, i would not use the term 'ghost' myself, there is no such thing. there are 2 VERY different sorts of appearances, they should not be confused with each other like they are all the same thing.

1. evil spirits. they (as the lady in the other thread explained well) can pretend to be dead people (they are NOT), and they do things like making things in the house fall of the shelves (it happened to a friend of mine), or giving 'messages from the dead' so that people think they are really from the dead person and start going to witches and mediums instead of asking God for help. i rarely used to see anything, but would sometimes be aware of a dark, oppressive presence in the room at night, making me afraid. it would go away with prayer.
a spirit of someone who died is in the presence of God and would not be crying and scratching on the door. this sounds very much like an evil spirit.

2. actual appearances of people who have died. this ONLY happens with the will of God, it is not for us to try to make it happen. this has happened to friends of mine who occasionally (and usually when they were not expecting it) saw someone who had died who encouraged them to keep trusting God, going to church, reading the Bible etc. this is accompanied by peace, and it makes the person seek more of God, and not seek more of the supernatural experiences. it is really quite rare, i know very few people it happened to.

actually there is a 3rd category of people who are hallucinating and who are very sad and grieving or even mentally ill. so that is not necessarily an actual spirit, it could be all in the mind.
it is not necessarily our job to decide about someone else's experience whether it was from God or not.

but in our own life, we should NOT EVER seek out experiences with spirits (it leads to very much problems in life), instead focus on God who is far more powerful than any evil spirit and who is able to take care of the human spirits who have died and who are in His care. life with God is far more exciting than the life of someone who deals with evil spirits. if you love your enemies and pray for them and if you always look for chances to do good and if you are serious in repenting of sin, then seeing God at work is the most exciting thing ever. it is hard work, of course, but worth it because there is nothing as amazing as the love of God.

then IF you should see something and you don't know if it is an evil spirit or from God, then make the sign of the cross and ask God Himself for His protection. the evil spirit can't hurt you or take you away from God, so don't be afraid. if it is an angel or someone who died (really this is very rare), then God Himself will show you. If an angel comes from God, he will never say anything against the Bible or the liturgy and he will never say anything that makes you go away from church or make you afraid. this is how you know it is an evil spirit.

never EVER go to a seance or spiritual experience that is not from the church, once you do this, it is easy for evil spirits to visit you and try to make you afraid.

please let us know if that does not answer your question.
may God guide us all to an exciting life with Him  :)

marmar357

thank u mabsoota, very wise answer :)

I think its wise for me not to involve too much in others scary-spirits expercience, scary :p

Can bad spirits visit anyone?

joeg

The souls of those who who have died can't visit us without God allowing it. Even then, they only appear for a specific purpose, to specific people for a specific time. In the story of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man told by Christ:

Luke 16:19-31

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

This proves that it is not something that is possible save through God's will. And there are countless occasions in which God sent the spirit of person back for a specific purpose, both in the Holy Bible and Synexarium, aside other places.

[quote author=+Marmar+ link=topic=10843.msg131710#msg131710 date=1298843563]
Can bad spirits visit anyone?


By "bad spirits," I presume you refer to demons/devils i.e. the fallen angels that strive to cause the human race to fall. They may indeed visit a person, but I do not think that they spontaneously appear to anyone.

There was a story from the Paradise of Monks about a young disciple who complained to his spiritual father (who I think was St. Macarius), complaining about how the devils kept appearing to him and tormenting him and tempting him to sin. Later, the devils appeared to the spiritual father, and when he mentioned his son's complaint, they said that they had not even heard of him, never mind tempt him. (I will keep looking until I find the actual quote for this story)

The point is, the devils will only appear to you when you have reached a high spiritual level. St. Anthony was on numerous occasions physically beaten by the demons, almost to the brink of death, but then again he was St. Anthony the Great! I was once told by a priest that it is as if we humans are the fruit hanging on a tree. And the devil is shaking the tree to make us fall down into his hand. To dislodge those who are higher up in the tree's branches, he has to shake the tree harder. But those who are already fallen off the tree, he does not bother with - he doesn't have to, they are already on the ground. So, likewise, the more we progress spiritually, and the more we are able to endure temptations, the stronger the wars that the devil pitches against us. But God never allows us to be tempted more than we are able to endure:

1 Corinthians 10:13

13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

marmar357

[quote author=JG link=topic=10843.msg131719#msg131719 date=1298851295]
The souls of those who who have died can't visit us without God allowing it. Even then, they only appear for a specific purpose, to specific people for a specific time. In the story of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man told by Christ:

Luke 16:19-31

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

This proves that it is not something that is possible save through God's will. And there are countless occasions in which God sent the spirit of person back for a specific purpose, both in the Holy Bible and Synexarium, aside other places.

[quote author=+Marmar+ link=topic=10843.msg131710#msg131710 date=1298843563]
Can bad spirits visit anyone?


By "bad spirits," I presume you refer to demons/devils i.e. the fallen angels that strive to cause the human race to fall. They may indeed visit a person, but I do not think that they spontaneously appear to anyone.

There was a story from the Paradise of Monks about a young disciple who complained to his spiritual father (who I think was St. Macarius), complaining about how the devils kept appearing to him and tormenting him and tempting him to sin. Later, the devils appeared to the spiritual father, and when he mentioned his son's complaint, they said that they had not even heard of him, never mind tempt him. (I will keep looking until I find the actual quote for this story)

The point is, the devils will only appear to you when you have reached a high spiritual level. St. Anthony was on numerous occasions physically beaten by the demons, almost to the brink of death, but then again he was St. Anthony the Great! I was once told by a priest that it is as if we humans are the fruit hanging on a tree. And the devil is shaking the tree to make us fall down into his hand. To dislodge those who are higher up in the tree's branches, he has to shake the tree harder. But those who are already fallen off the tree, he does not bother with - he doesn't have to, they are already on the ground. So, likewise, the more we progress spiritually, and the more we are able to endure temptations, the stronger the wars that the devil pitches against us. But God never allows us to be tempted more than we are able to endure:

1 Corinthians 10:13

13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Okay, i agree with u,
thanks for ur answer,
but what about that girl who i know who said that there are 2 childish ghosts who let themselves hear by crying and by scratching with their nails on the door???
And what about the video??
I am not going to judge, but like u said:the devils will only appear to you when you have reached a high spiritual level.

its still weird, lol

joeg

[quote author=+Marmar+ link=topic=10843.msg131782#msg131782 date=1298931466]
Okay, i agree with u,
thanks for ur answer,
but what about that girl who i know who said that there are 2 childish ghosts who let themselves hear by crying and by scratching with their nails on the door???
And what about the video??
I am not going to judge, but like u said:the devils will only appear to you when you have reached a high spiritual level.

its still weird, lol



I can't judge their validity. I honestly couldn't see anything in the video.

These "apparitions" may be the people hallucinating or simply making it up.

I personally wouldn't take any notice in such strange happenings: it is bordering on an unhealthy interest in the occult, which is not beneficial to us in any way as Christians. We should be more concerned with our spiritual lives: of what profit is it if that was a ghost that appeared to that person? Is it going to help us get to heaven in any way, shape or form?

I'd just leave it personally, there's nothing to benefit.

anba bola

Abouna Bishoy El-Antony told about a story like this. Before he became a monk one of his coworkers told him about a chair that would move across the room by itself, so he went and took a look at it. He then took some water prayed over it, "sprayed" it around the room, and it stopped moving.

In other words, don't worry about it. You are always protected by God.