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Should deacons in the altar greet each other??
This lady at church was saying that during the mass the deacons serving in the altar represent angels, just like the priest represent Christ. So the deacons serving in the alter should not greet one another (during the prayer of reconciliation) since the angels are all at peace with each other, and most importantly they are already conciliated with Christ.
I remain sceptical about this though. Has one heard of this?
PPFM
I remain sceptical about this though. Has one heard of this?
PPFM
Comments
This lady at church was saying that during the mass the deacons serving in the altar represent angels, just like the priest represent Christ. So the deacons serving in the alter should not greet one another (during the prayer of reconciliation) since the angels are all at peace with each other, and most importantly they are already conciliated with Christ.
I remain sceptical about this though. Has one heard of this?
PPFM
Then the deacons of the altar should not even pray "Lord have mercy" for the angels of the Lord do not require God's mercy.
They shouldn't even go to the bathroom because angels do not even do this.
Its this type of NONSENSE that makes people protestant.
I've never heard so much nonsense. If in the Bible it says FIRST make peace with your brother AND THEN offer a sacrifice, so if our sacrifice is of praise, you ought to reconcile with your brother first and then act like an angel and continue with your tasbeha afterwards. Reconciliation with your brother is paramount, and then "acting like" an angel can come later.
What's the point of even serving in the altar if you've offended your brother. Who are you fooling?
And the same applies for a priest. I don't understand how a priest can say "Forgive me" to the congregation if he's only acting. He's representing Christ in the Church - Christ didn't ask anyone to forgive Him.
This is when the acting stops.
I have heard this same teaching from a Deacon who has studied in the Clerical College in Egypt. I think if it is being taught there, there is a bit more legitimacy and the answer should be a bit more researched than our mere opinions. Does anyone have a firm response, with a source?
And just as a side note, Zoxasi and like minded members; It is this mindset that is pushing people away from the church. When the "very Coptic" people are the ones bashing the traditions of the church, like in your last post, rather than actually going and studying why our church has included them in the liturgy, what are the outsiders supposed to think of these traditions? Just because we don't understand something, or ever don't agree doesn't mean the church in Her wisdom has not built it this way for a reason we will never understand without being in the shoes of a Priest, Bishop,a Diakon serving in the altar, etc.
Our Church is beautiful in its traditions, and we can't just cruise left and right thinking our interpretation of the Bible is the correct one that should be guiding our church. The Church has been taking care of itself for years. If people are struggling with it, then they have to do the work to learn more and be comfortable instead of blaming the church for having unappealing traditions. Pray for the church, and for all her members to be firm in the faith and love the traditions more and more.
I wouldn't bash this too quickly.
I have heard this same teaching from a Deacon who has studied in the Clerical College in Egypt. I think if it is being taught there, there is a bit more legitimacy and the answer should be a bit more researched than our mere opinions. Does anyone have a firm response, with a source?
And just as a side note, Zoxasi and like minded members; It is this mindset that is pushing people away from the church. When the "very Coptic" people are the ones bashing the traditions of the church, like in your last post, rather than actually going and studying why our church has included them in the liturgy, what are the outsiders supposed to think of these traditions? Just because we don't understand something, or ever don't agree doesn't mean the church in Her wisdom has not built it this way for a reason we will never understand without being in the shoes of a Priest, Bishop,a Diakon serving in the altar, etc.
Our Church is beautiful in its traditions, and we can't just cruise left and right thinking our interpretation of the Bible is the correct one that should be guiding our church. The Church has been taking care of itself for years. If people are struggling with it, then they have to do the work to learn more and be comfortable instead of blaming the church for having unappealing traditions. Pray for the church, and for all her members to be firm in the faith and love the traditions more and more.
TiShori,
This isn't about bashing the traditions.
OK.. let's put it this way:
Let's say 2 deacons are serving in the altar, and one has offended the other before and not really apologised for it. Or, let's be generous, and say that the deacon that did offend did say "sorry" but it was recent.
It would be an ideal moment for them to reconcile.
You agree?
Let's say - 2 kids who are arguing get into a fight in Church. The priest tells them to make up.
They make up, but maybe feel some bitterness towards each other.
But the priest tells them both to serve in the Altar. So they serve.
That is the right time for both them to do the sign of reconciliation. There's nothing wrong with it.
OK.. Let me give you another example.
In the liturgy, the priest resembles "Christ" - right?
Yet, before commencing the "main" part in the liturgy, he tells the congregation "Akhtet samhoony" (I've sinned, please forgive me).
Why? Surely Christ didn't ask for forgiveness.
WE ARE NOT ACTING IN THE LITURGY.
I hate acting. You cannot go and insult your brother, dress up as a priest and pretend you are unaccountable to God for your acts because "during the mass, you resemble Christ".
I've seen this before.
I've seen priests who have clearly offended someone, and have actually said "I've sinned, forgive me" without even meaning it.
"Yeah, look, i'm not shaking your hand, or doing any sign of reconciliation, because I'm representing an angel and angels don't need to reconcile with anyone."
If that was my son, and you told him this advice, I'd find you Tishori, and seriously be upset with you.
What we do in Church is very applicable to our daily lives. Its part of it. Its not just acting like angels - its actually BEING an angel.
They most definitely do the kiss of reconciliation (the kiss of peace).
The woman that made that assessment and interpretation is incorrect.
As a matter of fact, the kiss of peace is supposed to proceed from the altar to the people.
I always give the peace to all before it is shared among the congregation. I begin with those serving in the altar and then the laity.
Makes total sense.
Like I said - i hate it when we act.
The sign of reconciliation between us isn't just a novelty. its real. We ought to live the Liturgy and apply it.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10893.msg132009#msg132009 date=1299264868]
OK.. let's put it this way:
Let's say 2 deacons are serving in the altar, and one has offended the other before and not really apologised for it. Or, let's be generous, and say that the deacon that did offend did say "sorry" but it was recent.
It would be an ideal moment for them to reconcile.
You agree?
Let's say - 2 kids who are arguing get into a fight in Church. The priest tells them to make up.
They make up, but maybe feel some bitterness towards each other.
But the priest tells them both to serve in the Altar. So they serve.
That is the right time for both them to do the sign of reconciliation. There's nothing wrong with it.
[/quote
But if they truly didn't reconcile before the mass then they shouldn't serve in the altar or even become deacons during the mass. How do you know that their kiss of peace is not merely an act.
PPFM
As a matter of fact the lady was doing the translation for 'Mahragan El-Keraza' (which i think is lead by H.G Bishop Moussa), when she came across this. So i guess if thats what they are teaching the kids then H.G Bishop Moussa must agree with it.
i would like to see the original text please. PLEASE!!!
This quote I took from your reply to Zoxsasi is priceless:
"Just because we don't understand something, or ever don't agree doesn't mean the church in Her wisdom has not built it this way".
Very well said, I hope it's ok to quote that in similar threads...
Oujai qen 'P[C
DEAr tishori,
This quote I took from your reply to Zoxsasi is priceless:
"Just because we don't understand something, or ever don't agree doesn't mean the church in Her wisdom has not built it this way".
Very well said, I hope it's ok to quote that in similar threads...
Oujai qen 'P[C
hahaha. i know what you are talking about ophadece. :)
Btw the deacons in my church greet each other while we sing Hiten. I thought all the other churches did too.
I do.
Btw the deacons in my church greet each other while we sing Hiten. I thought all the other churches did too.
Hmmm interesting.