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Help! Pope Shenouda wants the second islamic article to stay??
Hi,
I have a problem. I know that this post is very lenghty, but this is not just a personal matter, its a SERIOUS matter, about the church. And also about my friend. I have a friend who is done with the COC and he intends on going to an anglican church.
I am really confused and I will tell his arguments for this, but first I want to talk about a confusing matter.
Since i really need to say what my friend said about the Church leaders and not everything is personally at all, and my english is not that good, i will quote what he said. PLEASE don't report this post, this must to be posted to clarify the WHOLE PROBLEM!
His status:
" At the same time there are a lot of good muslims ,youth and men
are refusing the second article in the constitution which say the islamic law is
the only reason for judge ,Pope shenouda head of the egyptian church declared that
he with the second article to stay !!"
I shocked when i saw this. I know that there are journalists who can lie and not speaking the truth, but i am confused.
This is what he & I commented on the status:
*Me: uhm. where did u hear that
* Me:sources?
I am not going to quote the following literally, but he joked around that he dreamed it, and then i said that he dont must
let satan deceive him ( i thought he was talking seriously) and than hw said he didn't dream it.
Then he asked why i need sources and if 1 source isn't enough. I said:
* because i need valid sources to know exactly what he said.
If someone wants me to believe anything, they need to come with valid sources, which prove what the Pope said.
*He: where can i get you 'sources' ?do you want pope shenouda comes to a screen
and say 'listen people as a christians head in egypt i say yes to the
islamic law to be continued in egypt and **the christians here!",
I i don't want you to believe or not believe i say that as a
historical documentation to his words. Then he said "what if i get you ONE
source ?do you will ask for another ones ? what if this source wasnt
inside the church as usual but some journalists working in pubic
journals in egypt ? what if there were more than one journals ?
you know what's that looks like ,,it's look like what he said about
rebuilding the burning police station .the same you'll not find a
'sources' from the church! but it's in the close meeting and leaks
.. so easy it's dirty but effective (politics,hidden messages,leaks)"
Me:omg, do u really believe those journalists? Those people
say everything, all of rubbish, just to attract people to the media and to let
them hear some 'juicy' info. Pope Shenouda will NEVER say that the islamic law
must to be continued..., seriously, he is the POPE, yeah then why we
don't call him "sheikh" if he wants this law to be continued? Our Pope wants
to protect his children and he must be politic with the muslims, cause if he
wasn't, it would have be MUCH worse for the copts in Egypt. There are copts who
asked for the pope's support, and that's why the Pope wants to help us and he
tries to do his best. If he wants the islamic law to stay, than WHY does he cry
in this video
(see: 6:00) about the
persecution of copts?
* Me: any sources outside the church are not trustful
Then he told me that the problems are:
1-I'm not living in Egypt
2-I don't know the system here
3- the same pope shenoudais writing weekly in these rubbish journals
4-I don't want to believe
Me: yes, i am not living in Egypt thats right. But how can a
POPE who is the leader of the coptic orthodox church, wants the islamic law to
stay? That's ridiculous. The pope don't even read these journals, he said on
ctv, cause there are only rumors, than how does he write in them, lol. I don't
believe it, exactly, unless I get valid sources, not from stupid journalists of
satan who wants to destroy the church. I am not going to say anymore else, this
is my opinion, and if U believe that Pope Shenouda should be replaced by
another one, than I wil say : PRAY, and for sure God will answer and if he is
not good enough, he will show it soon. Come back to me if u have concrete
sources.
Then he sent me these links:
http://www.wataninet.com/News.aspx?N=3548
It's in arabic but i transalated it with google:
Said His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, in an exclusive interview today with the
leaders and servants of the churches that he is refusing to cancel the second
article of the Constitution, but it calls for adding an article of the
Constitution provides that the right of Copts also be judged them according to
their religion, as explained by His Holiness that, despite that the Muslim
Brotherhood formed party the center and in the process of the Party (Community)
and also demanding that the Salafi party but it was not in favor of the Copts
to be an independent party, but their best to establish a political party
includes 12 million Coptic and all the moderate Muslims; because this is in
everyone's interest.
His Holiness stressed the importance of discussing our problems quietly and
Coptic is no need for violence, which he read on the net and sites if there is
any problem for the Clerical Council For the victim to submit this directly to
His Holiness. And supported the Pope's servants saw a need to adopt Aghapy and
CTV and preaching of the Gospel and the subject of a newspaper and a national
electoral card and the need to accelerate them out.
and these: http://dostor.org/politics/egypt/11/february/24/36908 open the first site ; http://www.wataninet.com/News.aspx?N=3548 ,, get
He said 'gournal watani' is a christian journal ,,so close to the church. What is this??!
My friend also told me:
there are muslims so happy for pope shenouda
muslims commented on a christian ,church's journal
says pope okay with the second article but take care the christians!!
[b]
I have a problem. I know that this post is very lenghty, but this is not just a personal matter, its a SERIOUS matter, about the church. And also about my friend. I have a friend who is done with the COC and he intends on going to an anglican church.
I am really confused and I will tell his arguments for this, but first I want to talk about a confusing matter.
Since i really need to say what my friend said about the Church leaders and not everything is personally at all, and my english is not that good, i will quote what he said. PLEASE don't report this post, this must to be posted to clarify the WHOLE PROBLEM!
His status:
" At the same time there are a lot of good muslims ,youth and men
are refusing the second article in the constitution which say the islamic law is
the only reason for judge ,Pope shenouda head of the egyptian church declared that
he with the second article to stay !!"
I shocked when i saw this. I know that there are journalists who can lie and not speaking the truth, but i am confused.
This is what he & I commented on the status:
*Me: uhm. where did u hear that
* Me:sources?
I am not going to quote the following literally, but he joked around that he dreamed it, and then i said that he dont must
let satan deceive him ( i thought he was talking seriously) and than hw said he didn't dream it.
Then he asked why i need sources and if 1 source isn't enough. I said:
* because i need valid sources to know exactly what he said.
If someone wants me to believe anything, they need to come with valid sources, which prove what the Pope said.
*He: where can i get you 'sources' ?do you want pope shenouda comes to a screen
and say 'listen people as a christians head in egypt i say yes to the
islamic law to be continued in egypt and **the christians here!",
I i don't want you to believe or not believe i say that as a
historical documentation to his words. Then he said "what if i get you ONE
source ?do you will ask for another ones ? what if this source wasnt
inside the church as usual but some journalists working in pubic
journals in egypt ? what if there were more than one journals ?
you know what's that looks like ,,it's look like what he said about
rebuilding the burning police station .the same you'll not find a
'sources' from the church! but it's in the close meeting and leaks
.. so easy it's dirty but effective (politics,hidden messages,leaks)"
Me:omg, do u really believe those journalists? Those people
say everything, all of rubbish, just to attract people to the media and to let
them hear some 'juicy' info. Pope Shenouda will NEVER say that the islamic law
must to be continued..., seriously, he is the POPE, yeah then why we
don't call him "sheikh" if he wants this law to be continued? Our Pope wants
to protect his children and he must be politic with the muslims, cause if he
wasn't, it would have be MUCH worse for the copts in Egypt. There are copts who
asked for the pope's support, and that's why the Pope wants to help us and he
tries to do his best. If he wants the islamic law to stay, than WHY does he cry
in this video
(see: 6:00) about thepersecution of copts?
* Me: any sources outside the church are not trustful
Then he told me that the problems are:
1-I'm not living in Egypt
2-I don't know the system here
3- the same pope shenoudais writing weekly in these rubbish journals
4-I don't want to believe
Me: yes, i am not living in Egypt thats right. But how can a
POPE who is the leader of the coptic orthodox church, wants the islamic law to
stay? That's ridiculous. The pope don't even read these journals, he said on
ctv, cause there are only rumors, than how does he write in them, lol. I don't
believe it, exactly, unless I get valid sources, not from stupid journalists of
satan who wants to destroy the church. I am not going to say anymore else, this
is my opinion, and if U believe that Pope Shenouda should be replaced by
another one, than I wil say : PRAY, and for sure God will answer and if he is
not good enough, he will show it soon. Come back to me if u have concrete
sources.
Then he sent me these links:
http://www.wataninet.com/News.aspx?N=3548
It's in arabic but i transalated it with google:
Said His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, in an exclusive interview today with the
leaders and servants of the churches that he is refusing to cancel the second
article of the Constitution, but it calls for adding an article of the
Constitution provides that the right of Copts also be judged them according to
their religion, as explained by His Holiness that, despite that the Muslim
Brotherhood formed party the center and in the process of the Party (Community)
and also demanding that the Salafi party but it was not in favor of the Copts
to be an independent party, but their best to establish a political party
includes 12 million Coptic and all the moderate Muslims; because this is in
everyone's interest.
His Holiness stressed the importance of discussing our problems quietly and
Coptic is no need for violence, which he read on the net and sites if there is
any problem for the Clerical Council For the victim to submit this directly to
His Holiness. And supported the Pope's servants saw a need to adopt Aghapy and
CTV and preaching of the Gospel and the subject of a newspaper and a national
electoral card and the need to accelerate them out.
and these: http://dostor.org/politics/egypt/11/february/24/36908 open the first site ; http://www.wataninet.com/News.aspx?N=3548 ,, get
He said 'gournal watani' is a christian journal ,,so close to the church. What is this??!
My friend also told me:
there are muslims so happy for pope shenouda
muslims commented on a christian ,church's journal
says pope okay with the second article but take care the christians!!
[b]
Comments
to leave the COC??)
Hi,
I have a problem. A big problem. First i want to ask u PLEASE DON'T moderate my post or remove it, or report it as spam,
it's really a big issue. First I am going to tell the part of the Pope, then the issue about the personal problem of my friend.
So I have a friend who is done with the COC and he intends on
going to an anglican church.
I am really confused and I will tell his arguments for this, but first I want to
talk about a confusing matter.
Since i really need to say what my friend said about the Church leaders and not
everything is personally at all, and my english is not that good, i will quote
what he said. His status:
" At the same time there are a lot of good muslims ,youth and men
are refusing the second article in the constitution which say the islamic law is
the only reason for judge ,Pope shenouda head of the egyptian church declared
that he with the second article to stay !!"
I shocked when i saw this. I know that there are journalists who can lie and not
speaking the truth, but i am confused.
This is what He & me commented on the status:
* Me: uhmm where did u hear that
* Me:sources?
I am not going to quote the following literally, but he joked around that he dreamt
it, and then i said that he don't must let Satan deceive him ( i thought he was talking seriously) and than he
said he didn't dream it.
Then he asked why i need sources and if 1 source isn't enough. I said:
* because i need valid sources to know exactly what he said.
If someone wants me to believe anything, they need to come with valid
sources, which prove what the Pope said.
*He: where can i get you 'sources' ? do you want pope Shenouda comes to a
screen
and say 'listen people as a Christians head in Egypt i say yes to the
Islamic law to be continued in Egypt and **the Christians here!",
I don't want you to believe or not believe i say that as a
historical documentation to his words. Then he said "what if i get you ONE
source ? Do you will ask for another ones ? What if this source wasn't
inside the church as usual but some journalists working in pubic
journals in Egypt? What if there were more than one journals ?
you know what's that looks like, it's look like what he said about
rebuilding the burning police station .the same you'll not find a
'sources' from the church! but it's in the close meeting and leaks
.. so easy it's dirty but effective (politics,hidden messages,leaks)"
Me:omg, do u really believe those journalists? Those people
say everything, all of rubbish, just to attract people to the media and to let
them hear some 'juicy' info. Pope Shenouda will NEVER say that the Islamic law
must to be continued..., seriously, he is the POPE, yeah then why we
doesn't call himself "sheikh" if he wants this law to be continued? Our Pope wants
to protect his children and he must be politic with the muslims, cause if he
wasn't, it would have be MUCH worse for the copts in Egypt. There are copts who
asked for the pope's support, and that's why the Pope wants to help us and he
tries to do his best. If he wants the islamic law to stay, then WHY does he cry
in this video
persecution of copts?
* Me: any sources outside the church are not trustful
Then he told me that the problems are:
1-I'm not living in Egypt
2-I don't know the system here
3- the same pope shenouda's writing weekly in these rubbish journals
4-I don't want to believe
Me: yes, i am not living in Egypt thats right. But how can a
POPE who is the leader of the coptic orthodox church, wants the islamic law to
stay? That's ridiculous. The pope don't even read these journals, he said on
CTV, cause there are only rumors, than how does he write in them, lol. I don't
believe it, exactly, unless I get valid sources, not from stupid journalists of
Satan who wants to destroy the church. I am not going to say anymore else, this
is my opinion, and if U believe that Pope Shenouda should be replaced by
another one, then I would say : PRAY, and for sure God will answer and if he is
not good enough, he will show it soon. Come back to me if u have concrete
sources."
Then he sent me these links:
http://www.wataninet.com/News.aspx?N=3548
It's in arabic but i transalated it with google:
Said His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, in an exclusive interview today with
the
leaders and servants of the churches that he is refusing to cancel the second
article of the Constitution, but it calls for adding an article of the
Constitution provides that the right of Copts also be judged them according to
their religion, as explained by His Holiness that, despite that the Muslim
Brotherhood formed party the center and in the process of the Party (Community)
and also demanding that the Salafi party but it was not in favor of the Copts
to be an independent party, but their best to establish a political party
includes 12 million Coptic and all the moderate Muslims; because this is in
everyone's interest.
His Holiness stressed the importance of discussing our problems quietly and
Coptic is no need for violence, which he read on the net and sites if there is
any problem for the Clerical Council For the victim to submit this directly to
His Holiness. And supported the Pope's servants saw a need to adopt Aghapy and
CTV and preaching of the Gospel and the subject of a newspaper and a national
electoral card and the need to accelerate them out.
and these: http://dostor.org/politics/egypt/11/february/24/36908 open
the first site ; http://www.wataninet.com/News.aspx?N=3548 ,, get
He said 'gournal watani' is a christian journal ,,so close to the church. What
is this??!
My friend also told me:
there are muslims so happy for pope shenouda
muslims commented on a christian ,church's journal
says pope okay with the second article but take care the christians!!
" Why does I feel so bad about the church?
because there is no spirit in there sermons, I can't stay in a place i don't feel OKAY with.their teachings are so bad,old,boring. they don't allow someone to ask and get with them into dialogue (ask and answer) their style is
someone stand and say the same words every time.
I used to listen ,enjoy and understand the sermons,but i find myself
feel so cold ,i have been addicted to pope shenouda's sermons ,the last time i
felt his words has broken my heart up 6 or 7 years, but everything is changed
they became unsystematic church since they allow bunch of bad people has a
special benefits to become close to him, since when we allow to
business men to sit next to pope shenouda? everyone is trying to get
something and all the time i say 'no he didn't accept that' but he allow them
to get closer and closer because they're agents of the government like "hany
azez' this is a (fentas!!) .since when we spend the church money on the
rubbish ,there is a priest so close
to pope shenouda ,his name is (Matta Salip) he used to spend the money to
build an Islamic school for the quran! He used to say the american
copts are bytread and not egyptian.. ** because they say we don't allow
persecution happens to copts and do so many uprisings there in USA to make
pressure on egyptian gove. to stop hitting copts , when we spend
money on burning police stations !!,and the poor christian all over
egypt ! those poor people used to go to the church for help ,but they give them
so little ,so so little and spend the money according to their own thoughts ,on
making food parties for muslim in ramadan ! on keeping the cars fashion ,on
their offices for rest ,they stop visiting the copts church ,they can't stop
speaking in the politics,( if i decided to go to the church for preparing
to a wedding ,the priest will ask me the voting card in the first or he can't
make the wedding mass!!) .i see there is no problem to visit israel in '3ed al
qyama' to
see our lord's tomb and the holy light every year this time ,but the coptic
church doesn't want to make me visit israel or they will prevent me from the
church when i ask why ?the answer is it's order from pope shenouda when i ask
myself why pope shenouda say that? because the government told him that . .
all that is nothing with the next disaster ,,this disaster is ;pope
shenouda declared that he is OKAY with the second article in the constitution
which say islamic law is the only source for the judge . many many good muslims
says NO for this article but pope shnouda said YES !!!
Last he said he is over with this church and that its evil! :S
He said i cant keep going with a church i don't feel comfortable with, so no
problem if i visited anglican church has a very good situation from what's happening ,and
feeling so good when i hear them praying and teaching ,,that doesn't mean i'm
done with ORTHODOX , i'm orthodoxy and will die orthodoxy , if i'm not living
in egypt i could went to russian orhodox church or greek orthodox church. There was my explanation of why i hated this church ,read it as you want
,i copied this message , hope you understand and don't hate your church ."
[b]So he is done with the church but the still loves orthodoxy? How?[/b]
Please help, this confused me and its not just a personal issue. its a problem for
all copts if this is true! I don't know if i am tne only one who has this problem..
I really dont know what to think. Guys, i know focusing on politic is not the
most important thing, and relevant
for my salvation, but if I dont know the truth about this i will get crazy!
So, in short:
- My friend is done with COC , cause of the church leaders.
He read in the journals (see link above) that the Pope Shenouda wants the second
article of the Egyptian constitution to stay.
- He wants to go to another church. He loves their teachings and songs and he is
more comforted with it.
-oh i forgot to say this.
He said: bishop moses says" i'm so honored of my friendship with mr
selim el 3awa ,we hosted him before in the bishopric of youth with
mohammad 3emara and tarek elpeshrie. we were refusing the way was the
police treating the muslim brotherhoods!.we know what the second article
represent for the muslims so no problem with it. "
...
this guy is so ambitious looking for his future ,because the last three names
are so radical and terrorists ,one of them says the church and the monasteries
stored weapons to fight muslims one day ! ..
http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168749">http://www.coptreal.com/WShowSubject.aspx?SID=44201
http://www.arabchurch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168749
What do you think guys?
Thanks for sharing this information.
I was just thinking to myself that the Pope ought to support the 2nd Article of the Constitution - and he has.
lol..
I know its wrong to be wise in your own eyes.. but , i'm good. I just was hoping he did this.
Go and read the story of Farag Foda or Fawda and tell me if what the Pope did wasn't pure brilliance.
As your friend, he thinks westernism will make him stimulated and "cool". He is making up excuses because he wants to be western.
No one is holding him in the church.
I'm sure he will be happy in a church that has no sacraments, sanctions homosexuality, and changes dogma and doctrine relative to a given whim of a given convention.
His Holiness, Pope Shenouda, has been under attack from the media. He has been misquoted (intentionally or unintentionally). Watani, as a newspaper/periodical, has been lately manipulating his words to their own aims. There are several members in Watani who attack His Holiness in favor of Satan's Son--Max Michel and his break away church.
I can't follow a thing your writing. I'm not sure what you are saying.
As your friend, he thinks westernism will make him stimulated and "cool". He is making up excuses because he wants to be western.
No one is holding him in the church.
I'm sure he will be happy in a church that has no sacraments, sanctions homosexuality, and changes dogma and doctrine relative to a given whim of a given convention.
His Holiness, Pope Shenouda, has been under attack from the media. He has been misquoted (intentionally or unintentionally). Watani, as a newspaper/periodical, has been lately manipulating his words to their own aims. There are several members in Watani who attack His Holiness in favor of Satan's Son--Max Michel and his break away church.
No.. i think the Pope is NOT advocating the removal of article 2.
I HOPE he is NOT advocating it!!
It would make sense if he insists on keeping it.
it is true. The Pope and some bishops have opposed a change to the second article but wanted to add to theis article that divorce and marriage of non-muslims should be governed by their own laws.
It is also true that Bishop Moussa has declared that he is honored by his friendship with Selim El-Awa, at least he has never denied the articles attributing such comments to him. He is also friends with Tarek El-Beshry and Muhamed Omara, according to Bishop Moussa 's quotes. The trio of Bishop Moussa's friends are terrorists and have advocated the killing and confiscating of Copt's property as well as subjecting the churches to the state authority.
I am just stating that the news are real and not fabricated.
Zoxsasi,
I do not understand your position. The second article allows for killing Copts without legal punishment according to the sharia. It was the basis of all acquittals of criminals who killed Copts or for their very light punishment. It also allows the confiscation of Copt's property without limits as per sharia. Your hope is misplaced. The appeal to the sharia on behalf of the Church confuses many, maybe you can shed some light on why our church or any minority group would like to live under sharia.
ILSM,
it is true. The Pope and some bishops have opposed a change to the second article but wanted to add to theis article that divorce and marriage of non-muslims should be governed by their own laws.
It is also true that Bishop Moussa has declared that he is honored by his friendship with Selim El-Awa, at least he has never denied the articles attributing such comments to him. He is also friends with Tarek El-Beshry and Muhamed Omara, according to Bishop Moussa 's quotes. The trio of Bishop Moussa's friends are terrorists and have advocated the killing and confiscating of Copt's property as well as subjecting the churches to the state authority.
I am just stating that the news are real and not fabricated.
Zoxsasi,
I do not understand your position. The second article allows for killing Copts without legal punishment according to the sharia. It was the basis of all acquittals of criminals who killed Copts or for their very light punishment. It also allows the confiscation of Copt's property without limits as per sharia. Your hope is misplaced. The appeal to the sharia on behalf of the Church confuses many, maybe you can shed some light on why our church or any minority group would like to live under sharia.
If the Pope advocated the removal of Article 2, he'd have signed the death warrants of every Coptic Christian, including himself.
Moderate Egyptian muslims who have challenged Article 2 of the Constitution, have been killed/murdered in cold blood, WITH THE BLESSING OF AL-AZHAR. Just check out the story of Farag Foda.
If Copts advocated openly the removal of Article 2 and it IS achieved, there will be a huge animosity between us and the Muslim Brotherhood & Gamaa Al Islamiya with Al-Azhar blessing any attacks on us.
Its really the Gamaat Al islamiya who worry me.
If moderate muslims are being killed who have peacefully and wisefully challenged Article 2, then what about us??
I can't follow a thing your writing. I'm not sure what you are saying.
As your friend, he thinks westernism will make him stimulated and "cool". He is making up excuses because he wants to be western.
No one is holding him in the church.
I'm sure he will be happy in a church that has no sacraments, sanctions homosexuality, and changes dogma and doctrine relative to a given whim of a given convention.
His Holiness, Pope Shenouda, has been under attack from the media. He has been misquoted (intentionally or unintentionally). Watani, as a newspaper/periodical, has been lately manipulating his words to their own aims. There are several members in Watani who attack His Holiness in favor of Satan's Son--Max Michel and his break away church.
ilovesaintmark, I am saying that my friend read in several journals (the 2 links I posted in my first post, it's in arabic, but I transalated it with GOOGLE so that's why the transalation is not 100 % correct), that Pope Shenouda III, wants the second article, which says that the islamic law is
the only reason for judging (correct me if I am wrong), wants to stay.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10894.msg132002#msg132002 date=1299262857]
His Holiness, Pope Shenouda, has been under attack from the media. He has been misquoted (intentionally or unintentionally). Watani, as a newspaper/periodical, has been lately manipulating his words to their own aims. There are several members in Watani who attack His Holiness in favor of Satan's Son--Max Michel and his break away church.
Wow, really? May i ask u were u get that from? If those journalists are misquoting the Pope and other church leaders, like anba Mousa (see 2nd post, that in the journal, see link, is written that he said: bishop moses says" i'm so honored of my friendship with mr selim el 3awa ,we hosted him before in the bishopric of youth with mohammad 3emara and tarek elpeshrie. we were refusing the way was the police treating the muslim brotherhoods.we know what the second article
represent for the muslims so no problem with it. ") then those journalists are really out of their minds.
I just find it a bit weird that our church leaders are being so politic with muslims. Okay, what do u think? Do u think that the churchleaders are interfrering too much in politics? What do u think what's his (the Pope) task? Being a spiritual leader or also interfrering with politics? Btw, don't get me wrong, I love the pope a lot and i Love his sermons, but i just get very very confused of what I heard/saw. I am not very intelligent and don't live in Egypt, so i dont know much. I dont mean to offend anyone, but i want to know the truth.
What are the churchleaders trying to do, are they playing politic?
...
I can't follow a thing your writing. I'm not sure what you are saying.
As your friend, he thinks westernism will make him stimulated and "cool". He is making up excuses because he wants to be western.
No one is holding him in the church.
I'm sure he will be happy in a church that has no sacraments, sanctions homosexuality, and changes dogma and doctrine relative to a given whim of a given convention.
About my friend, actually i dont think it's just that he wants to be western or " cool" , thats not the correct word i think. He told me that he was really attracted to pope's sermons and he still love the coptic hymns a lot and he said he will be still orthodox in his heart and die as a orthodox. I just dont understand him well, i think it has too much to do with the church leaders, i dont know in how far i must believe those journals..
Dear people, please, what do u think of what my friend said:
"there is a priest so close
to pope shenouda ,his name is (Matta Salip) he used to spend the money to
build an islamic school for the quran! He used to say the american
copts are bytread and not egyptian.. ** because they say we don't allow
persecution happens to copts and do so many uprisings there in usa to make
presure on egyptian gove. to stop hitting copts , when we spend
money on burning police stations !!,and the poor christian all over
egypt ! those poor people used to go to the church for help ,but they give them
so little ,so so little and spend the money according to their own thoughts ,on
making food parties for muslim in ramadan ! on keeping the cars fashion ,on
their offices for rest ,they stop visiting the copts church ,they can't stop
speaking in the politics,( if i decided to go to the church for preparing
to a wedding ,the priest will ask me the voting card in the first or he can't
make the wedding mass!!) .i see there is no problem to visit israel in '3ed al
qyama' to
see our lord's tomb and the holy light every year this time ,but the coptic
church doesn't want to make me visit israel or they will prevent me from the
church when i ask why."
So what do u think of the bold sentences?
Ya rab..
Also it is NOT the Church's function to act as a political party but HH Pope Shenouda III gives his realistic guidance that clearly aborts the dangerous traps that were lately being set against the COC. You should be aware that it is the immediate goal and interest of terrorists and also the enemies of Egypt to stir religious based unrest and giving further excuses for blood shed by taking advantage of the religious nature of our people.
Here are some of HG Bishop Moussa words, from various sources:
http://www.christian-dogma.com/vb/showthread.php?t=79228
and noting that:
http://christian-dogma.com/vb/showthread.php?p=760178
I would like to remind you that the 2nd Article has been there since 1923. It also means that the ruler was imposing a Kaliphate, i.e. like any king he would rule till he dies, it is thus not too surprising to expect that presidents would stay in power that long and tried to transfer power to their son. It is a matter of ethics too to leave the Muslim majority to solve this dilemma, because we insist this Article concerns them in the first place. We only ask for an extension to it to clarify and regulate our natural rights.
It is very extreme and very wrong to humiliate our wise Pope and our Bishops. We fully rely on our just Lord not on our human rage or means, and we are not passive citizens either. You all have seen His powerful interventions, haven't you? Peace.
GBU
ILSM,
it is true. The Pope and some bishops have opposed a change to the second article but wanted to add to this article that divorce and marriage of non-muslims should be governed by their own laws.
It is also true that Bishop Moussa has declared that he is honored by his friendship with Selim El-Awa, at least he has never denied the articles attributing such comments to him. He is also friends with Tarek El-Beshry and Muhamed Omara, according to Bishop Moussa 's quotes. The trio of Bishop Moussa's friends are terrorists and have advocated the killing and confiscating of Copt's property as well as subjecting the churches to the state authority.
I am just stating that the news are real and not fabricated.
Zoxsasi,
I do not understand your position. The second article allows for killing Copts without legal punishment according to the sharia. It was the basis of all acquittals of criminals who killed Copts or for their very light punishment. It also allows the confiscation of Copt's property without limits as per sharia. Your hope is misplaced. The appeal to the sharia on behalf of the Church confuses many, maybe you can shed some light on why our church or any minority group would like to live under sharia.
Wow, so it's true? The pope wants the 2nd article to change, or to stay? Or does he want a special article for christians and one for muslims?
The Christian way was given to us in the Sermon on the Mount by Jesus Christ. Remember that Love never fails and the Lord promised that He avenges His children. HH has a very wise long term vision and cares for Egypt Christians as well as Muslims. HH is aware of what's going on and accordingly we think he decides what's best for the COC.
Also it is NOT the Church's function to act as a political party but HH Pope Shenouda III gives his realistic guidance that clearly aborts the dangerous traps that were lately being set against the COC. You should be aware that it is the immediate goal and interest of terrorists and also the enemies of Egypt to stir religious based unrest and giving further excuses for blood shed by taking advantage of the religious nature of our people.
Here are some of HG Bishop Moussa words, from various sources:
http://www.christian-dogma.com/vb/showthread.php?t=79228
and noting that:
http://christian-dogma.com/vb/showthread.php?p=760178
I would like to remind you that the 2nd Article has been there since 1923. It also means that the ruler was imposing a Kaliphate, i.e. like any king he would rule till he dies, it is thus not too surprising to expect that presidents would stay in power that long and tried to transfer power to their son. It is a matter of ethics too to leave the Muslim majority to solve this dilemma, because we insist this Article concerns them in the first place. We only ask for an extension to it to clarify and regulate our natural rights.
It is very extreme and very wrong to humiliate our wise Pope and our Bishops. We fully rely on our just Lord not on our human rage or means, and we are not passive citizens either. You all have seen His powerful interventions, haven't you? Peace.
GBU
John, forgive me, I don't mean to offend the Pope or anyone, I am just saying what me was said and asking for the truth. Of course we must rely on God, and who am I to contradict the Pope??
I just don't understand why does he wants the bad islamic article to stay, isn't that bad for the copts?
I am not trying to be intelligent, no, i am just trying to understand. I mean, how can I be convinced and walking comfortable in my faith, if I don't even understand what's going on (under the table) in our church? The pope is very important to all the copts, I am following him and he is following Jesus, so He is the holiest one we have on earth.
Sorry if anyone misinterpreted.
Still hope there are some people who could answer my questions.
Thank u , Gb
Here are some of HG Bishop Moussa words, from various sources:
http://www.christian-dogma.com/vb/showthread.php?t=79228
and noting that:
http://christian-dogma.com/vb/showthread.php?p=760178
Wow, why is anba mousa angry that they arrested the muslim brotherhood? Those muslims killed our christian brothers ???
Gb
Yes, this article's current wording was abusively manipulated by Sadat who wanted to take a higher religious leadership power to totally subdue all Egyptians. We all know how he persecuted HH thinking the Church would collapse but the Lord showed him His wrath and His glory, allowing it to happen not through us but through the very tools Sadat was using. In fact all good thinkers were convinced of this.
PS: In an interview al Azhar head seemed to accept the proposed idea of an extension to Article 2 but it is not officially declared.
GBU
GBU
I fully understand all our concerns but it is practically unwise for the Church to ask for the 2nd Article removal, it is much wiser and politically correct to ask for an extension with clear emphasis on our requested rights.
Yes, this article's current wording was abusively manipulated by Sadat who wanted to take a higher religious leadership power to totally subdue all Egyptians. We all know how he persecuted HH thinking the Church would collapse but the Lord showed him His wrath and His glory, allowing it to happen not through us but through the very tools Sadat was using. In fact all good thinkers were convinced of this.
PS: In an interview al Azhar head seemed to accept the proposed idea of an extension to Article 2 but it is not officially declared.
GBU
Wait, didn't the pope wants the article to stay, not to remove? Or am I being crazy, lol.
Thank u for the further information John.
+Marmar+ my reply to you and to your friend is from the teaching of the Bible: "Be angry and do not sin." Love must eventually conquer anger.
GBU
Nice verse, thanks. But I am not angry, I am confused. :)
The Church is instead seriously requesting to add to this article a sub article (an appendix or an clarifying extension) stating that in the religion related matters non Muslims are to be ruled and judged each group according to the laws of their belief system and their religious book reference.
GBU
Let me explain it this way: this article is a kind of taboo in the eyes of extremists and they are using it to flame the people against each other. The Church actually never asked for its removal knowing its severe importance to many Muslims.
The Church is instead seriously requesting to add to this article a sub article (an appendix or an clarifying extension) stating that in the religion related matters non Muslims are to be ruled and judged each group according to the laws of their belief system and their religious book reference.
GBU
Thanks, I get this part now i guess.
GBU 2
GBU
guys, I'd be careful about what you believe when it comes to people claiming that baba shenouda said this or that. SOOO many things get attributed to him that he never actually says. If you're reading from an arabic paper, be very careful what you believe, they don't have the same standards of journalistic integrity we do in the west.
Yeah, and that's why I don't know what to believe or what not to believe.
(Btw, this topic doesn't appear in "Coptic Orthodox Church" So if anyone wants to find this topic..they should see the last posts of the members who posted in this thread.. very annoying :s)
What is that issue about that voting card where my friend talked about? Must a copt have one to get married?
And why our Pope Shenouda doesn't want us to visit the Lord's tomb in Ourshalim?
Sorry for the many questions, i just want to organize my thoughts.
For myself and to know how I should respond if my confused friend who intends on leaving the COC, talk about this again.
I mean, it's a serious matter, isn't it? He wants to leave the COC! How dangerous! :-\
weird..
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,10906.msg132120.html#msg132120
i discussed this with a bishop when i was invited to a friend's wedding in israel, and he said it was not terrible to go, but he would advise against it. in the end we looked at the prices of the hotels and flights and it was way too much.
so if you go as a peace maker or for another good purpose, you should discuss it with your priest, but you are not advised to just go to do tourism.