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Fasting Problems
Hi,
I'm really enjoying fasting. I think its doing me a world of good. However, I work quite hard and sometimes if I have had nothing to eat, I lose focus on my work.
Today, I was working and I missed lunch - due to the workload. So, I went down to get a bite to eat, but all that was left was mackarel (fish) salad. So I had it. I was starving.
Is it so bad?
Do i need to confess?
Also, i had coffee in the morning, and I think the bottle next to me was cream. It looked like cream, it tasted like cream, but when I read the ingredients, it was in Dutch, so I couldn't be 110% sure it really was cream. I thought that it could be soya cream. Is that OK if I keep on taking it with my coffee - so long as I don't ask someone what the ingredients are who speaks dutch?
Let's say that it is soya cream - that's great.
Let's say its not soya cream - who is going to know? Right?
Thanks
I'm really enjoying fasting. I think its doing me a world of good. However, I work quite hard and sometimes if I have had nothing to eat, I lose focus on my work.
Today, I was working and I missed lunch - due to the workload. So, I went down to get a bite to eat, but all that was left was mackarel (fish) salad. So I had it. I was starving.
Is it so bad?
Do i need to confess?
Also, i had coffee in the morning, and I think the bottle next to me was cream. It looked like cream, it tasted like cream, but when I read the ingredients, it was in Dutch, so I couldn't be 110% sure it really was cream. I thought that it could be soya cream. Is that OK if I keep on taking it with my coffee - so long as I don't ask someone what the ingredients are who speaks dutch?
Let's say that it is soya cream - that's great.
Let's say its not soya cream - who is going to know? Right?
Thanks
Comments
Trouble maker, I know. ;)
Maybe if you spend less time on tasbeha.org you won't have to miss lunch.
Trouble maker, I know. ;)
Actually, a 5 min break every 120 mins is recommended.
I could've sworn I said the exact same thing to myself last time I did something questionable. It didn't make me feel any better, and I still did the thing. :-[
Perhaps God has put these questions in your mind for a reason.
"Who's going to know, right?" :-\
I could've sworn I said the exact same thing to myself last time I did something questionable. It didn't make me feel any better, and I still did the thing. :-[
Perhaps God has put these questions in your mind for a reason.
What Im trying to say is: why should i upset myself for if I'm not sure its real cream or soya cream by finding out the exact ingredients?
Guys, was it OK to eat the fish salad if I was literally starving and could not concentrate on work? Was that bad?
It was all they had left.
(there was meat, but I chose the less evil option).
No one here can tell you what did is okay. At the same time we're not here to judge you.
To me, the most obvious answer to prevent such things from happening again to bring your own goods. Lent is a very holy period and we should all take it seriously (I'm not by any means saying that you are not taking the fast seriously, I am speaking in general).
Also, i had coffee in the morning, and I think the bottle next to me was cream. It looked like cream, it tasted like cream, but when I read the ingredients, it was in Dutch, so I couldn't be 110% sure it really was cream. I thought that it could be soya cream. Is that OK if I keep on taking it with my coffee - so long as I don't ask someone what the ingredients are who speaks dutch?
Thanks
I speak dutch! :D
What was written?
After 9/11 the churches in the Southern Diocese of CA fasted for I believe three days. After that Fr. Anastasi called the Late Bishop Karas (then abbot of the monastery) and told him that he wanted to fast on his own some extra days for the tragedy. Bishop Karas agreed but then ordered that all the monastery fast as well.
After a very long day's work, and a long walk in the desert, Fr. Anastasi returned late in the day starving and thirsty. He went to the kitchen, where usually food is ready, and found nothing. So he went to the storage room where they keep most of the food. He saw the can of beans and a bunch of other stuff but everything had to be cooked and prepared and he was literally dying from hunger and thirst.
He opened the fridge took out a piece of cold cuts and cheese and put it in bread and ate.
Immediately he called Bishop Karas and told him what he had done. Bishop Karas told him that he was the one who chose to fast. If he could not find anything to eat it was better that he died in his fast than to break it.
Now obviously his advice to Fr. Anastasi, an ascetic, is extreme from our perspective. But I believe the same principle applies: we should strive to keep our fast at all costs, even till death. Realistically we will never be in a situation where we are so hungry that we will die. But the point is we are willing to show God our faithfulness. And he who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in what is much (Luke 16:10).
That said, you may have broken you fast by eating a fish salad, but we should focus more on whether we offended someone or failed to be generous, etc. It is when we do these things that we break our fast.
At the end of the day, its your decision whether you fast or not.. know one thing though, your not doing God any favors by fasting, it really doesnt affect him, fasting is something we do for ourselves to get closer to God.. If we question everything as say "well isnt it okay if I eat fish on this day because blah blah blah" yes its okay ofcourse its okay, you wont be punished for it, but your losing alot more spiritually than you are gaining physically by breaking the fast. Remember, God rewards even the smallest deeds.. meaning, if you hadn't broken your fast for fish, you would have been rewarded even for that little deed. You have to weigh the options... fish & coffee? Or heavenly rewards from God? That decision shouldnt be to hard, we humans tend to complicate everything
Well put by Unworthy...
At the end of the day, its your decision whether you fast or not.. know one thing though, your not doing God any favors by fasting, it really doesnt affect him, fasting is something we do for ourselves to get closer to God.. If we question everything as say "well isnt it okay if I eat fish on this day because blah blah blah" yes its okay ofcourse its okay, you wont be punished for it, but your losing alot more spiritually than you are gaining physically by breaking the fast. Remember, God rewards even the smallest deeds.. meaning, if you hadn't broken your fast for fish, you would have been rewarded even for that little deed. You have to weigh the options... fish & coffee? Or heavenly rewards from God? That decision shouldnt be to hard, we humans tend to complicate everything
Well put???
Are you sick!??
An abbot tells a monk that its better for him to die in his fast than break it??
HE would have been arrested for involuntary manslaughter. STOP THIS IDIOCY!!!!
Fasting is meant to help you grow spiritually, not kill you. When you fast and pray, you gain. The monk in this story should have cooked something...agreed, but if he ate meat that day, then he should have been punished (within the boundaries of a monastery's rules) for doing so.
But for goodness sake - don't apply this story to anyone who is not a monk.
if my son spent a spiritual retreat in a monastery where they fasted, I WOULD BE VERY HAPPY and I would recommend this. If he was starving and there was no food, and a monk or bishop or abbot told him "Son, its best you die than break your fast", and subsequently my son fell gravely ill, i would go and find that monk that advised him "its better to die in your fast than to break it", and I'd grab him by his beard, drag it down to my knee where I'd thrust it in his face.
I would then do EVERYTHING in my power to close this stupid monastery and sue the Church.
AND YOU WONDER WHY PEOPLE ARE LEAVING THE COPTIC CHURCH??
YOU'RE DAMN SICK AND YOU EVEN AGREE WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT STUFF THAT'S ILLEGAL!!!!!!
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=10895.msg132063#msg132063 date=1299285458]
Well put by Unworthy...
At the end of the day, its your decision whether you fast or not.. know one thing though, your not doing God any favors by fasting, it really doesnt affect him, fasting is something we do for ourselves to get closer to God.. If we question everything as say "well isnt it okay if I eat fish on this day because blah blah blah" yes its okay ofcourse its okay, you wont be punished for it, but your losing alot more spiritually than you are gaining physically by breaking the fast. Remember, God rewards even the smallest deeds.. meaning, if you hadn't broken your fast for fish, you would have been rewarded even for that little deed. You have to weigh the options... fish & coffee? Or heavenly rewards from God? That decision shouldnt be to hard, we humans tend to complicate everything
Well put???
Are you sick!??
An abbot tells a monk that its better for him to die in his fast than break it??
HE would have been arrested for involuntary manslaughter. STOP THIS IDIOCY!!!!
Fasting is meant to help you grow spiritually, not kill you. When you fast and pray, you gain. The monk in this story should have cooked something...agreed, but if he ate meat that day, then he should have been punished (within the boundaries of a monastery's rules) for doing so.
But for goodness sake - don't apply this story to anyone who is not a monk.
if my son spent a spiritual retreat in a monastery where they fasted, I WOULD BE VERY HAPPY and I would recommend this. If he was starving and there was no food, and a monk or bishop or abbot told him "Son, its best you die than break your fast", and subsequently my son fell gravely ill, i would go and find that monk that advised him "its better to die in your fast than to break it", and I'd grab him by his beard, drag it down to my knee where I'd thrust it in his face.
I would then do EVERYTHING in my power to close this stupid monastery and sue the Church.
AND YOU WONDER WHY PEOPLE ARE LEAVING THE COPTIC CHURCH??
YOU'RE DAMN SICK AND YOU EVEN AGREE WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT STUFF THAT'S ILLEGAL!!!!!!
Stop this non-sense, please man, it's not right to say that, please!!! Please don't hunt anyone down, we don't want to die, what you are doing is completely wrong man, chill out, go take a break, go outside or something, go to church and see your father of confession. Please man, don't hunt anyone, that's illegal too, and saying that about the church is very non-christian, please stop, that's wrong what you're saying.
Please Zoxcasi, don't hurt us, we're sorry.
If my teenage son was influenced by your sick minds and became I'll as a result of following this heinous advice, i would find you.
In fact, you come across as a bit of a wimp.
Fasting is good for you, but your all a bit sick.
In fact if this advice was really from Anba karrass, then as a responsible father, I am taking my kids out of the orthodox church.
What's the point? What are they going to gain???
You don't even reconcile between yourselves if you are in the altar.
I'm glad this has been revealed to me.
You give advice that could ruin someone's health and tell them that it's better to die than break your fast, yet you aren't man enough to face the consequences of your actions.
If my teenage son was influenced by your sick minds and became I'll as a result of following this heinous advice, i would find you.
In fact, you come across as a bit of a wimp.
Fasting is good for you, but your all a bit sick.
In fact if this advice was really from Anba karrass, then as a responsible father, I am taking my kids out of the orthodox church.
What's the point? What are they going to gain???
You don't even reconcile between yourselves if you are in the altar.
I'm glad this has been revealed to me.
You clearly didnt get what the abbot told the monk... He wasnt telling him go die because if u break your fast God will punish you... there NO PUNISHMENT FOR NOT FASTING... His point was God see's all deeds, that deed of literally giving your life for the sake of dying to the world and Living for God would have been rewarded GREATLY by God.. Remember heavenly rewards are what we seek, they are infinite, everlasting rewards, blessing from God. Jesus said to satan "MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD".
What the abbot told the monk was something only those extremely close to God can do, for us who have families, responsibilities etc its a different story, but for a monk.. someone who already chose to be "dead to the world" and someone who strives to achieve heavenly rewards, this would have been the ideal way to end his life".. You seem to assume God has no control over death, it is GOD who chooses when you die not you, even if you try your best to killing yourself, if you shoot yourself in the head with a gun, you will not DIE unless God says the word. It is the willingness to Go all the way for God is what we strive for..
If your going to insult me and unworthy for saying this, what would you have said to God when he said to abraham go sacrifice your son and offer him to me as a burnt offering.. would you have hunted down abraham as well?
Why don't you pack your own lunch during the fast (from home)?
No one here can tell you what did is okay. At the same time we're not here to judge you.
To me, the most obvious answer to prevent such things from happening again to bring your own goods. Lent is a very holy period and we should all take it seriously (I'm not by any means saying that you are not taking the fast seriously, I am speaking in general).
Yes, I am quoting myself.
No one has responded to what I have said, but instead, have jumped in attacking others.
I don't see why bringing your own food is not a plausible answer to your problem.
And I'm not kidding, if any of you (UNWORTHY, MEENA_AMEEN etc) advised someone to die of starvation than to break their fast, I WOULD HUNT YOU DOWN and I'd punish you myself.
I realize your upset, but you obviously are not hearing us, I would never tell anyone to starve till death rather than break their fast, I am saying, if you are a monk, and your "dead to the world" and your in that position yes if would be better to die that way, than to die of old age at the monastery. Can you imagine the difference standing before God? Knowing you would have gone to heaven either way, do you really think God would have rewarded you the same? Ofcourse not, the monk who dies rather than break his fast will be much higher than the monk who broke his fast and died of old age when they both get to heaven. THIS was the abbots point...
I dont know why you zoxasi have turned it into something disgusting.. Saying a monk would even DARE tell your child to die rather than break his fast, no monk in the WORLD would do this.. And on top of that, you now want to literally kill me and unworthy simply because you didnt understand exactly what we meant? Im actually very hurt, like very very hurt, and I cannot believe someone on THIS website could ever say something like that... this is definitely ruining my fast based on the feelings im getting towards you now and so this will be the last post I post on this topic lest I develop more evil thoughts.
pray for me
His advice was obviously hyperbolic. You should not take things so literally. If you are willing to die for something it completely changes your mindet. If I am willing to die to keep the commandments, it is different than if I am willing to suffer a lot but when things get tough I'll break them. The same applies to fasting. If you are willing to die to keep your fast, than you will do EVERYTHING in your power to keep it. If you will keep it as long as it's convenient you will not.
The monk he was advising had the latter mindset. He did not do everything he could to keep his fast. He broke it because he did not want to take the time to prepare food and was really tired.
The fast is meant to help you grow spiritually as you say, but if you create posts asking us about whether you eating a fish salad or using dairy creamer is OK than it is clear YOU are missing the point.
I am surprised that someone who would post such vile comments has kids! If you re-read your posts, you sound like some twisted psychopath. I urge you to apologize and take back what you said.
To honestly believe that an abbot of a monastery or me or anyone else in the Orthodox church would rather see someone die than eat some meat reveals a level understanding equivalent to that of a four year old child. I expected this reaction from a 1st grade Sunday school class, not someone with kids.
Rather than rashly jump to conclusions about how sick I might be, it would have been far more prudent to ask me to clarify what I meant by my post.
You have made yourself lose your peace and others in the process. I remind you of the words of St. John Chrysostom:
"Fasting is a medicine. But like all medicines, though it be very profitable to the person who knows how to use it, it frequently becomes useless (and even harmful) in the hands of him who is unskillful in its use."
http://www.orthodoxebooks.org/node/9
HH wrote this amazingly nice. I loved reading this. I think that everyone that posted on this thread should read this, and calm down.
May God have mercy on us, corrupt evil thoughts from our limited minds, and protect us from all of the devil's snares. Please Jesus help us to learn calmness in our everyday lives. Please help us to understand more about you and to pray to you in all cases.
Amen.
PPFM,
CopticStrength
P.S. Please don't bite me for posting this.
Who are you Zoxsasi to imply the blessed Bishop Karas is an idiot?!
WHERE DID I EVER IMPLY THAT?? DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!
I ASKED YOU! YOU!!!! to stop this idiocy. An act can be idiotic, but I never labelled anyone this.
In fact, look how you are twisting the truth: "Imply the blessed bishop karas"... You WANT to make that out - don't you?? That's just wicked.
I'm not sure if you understand the rites of the COC, but it is forbidden for any Coptic Christian to have the Holy Communion UNLESS they are fasting. Its very serious. You must be fasting. Im not disputing this rule, but with that in mind, you must now weigh the seriousness of the story you wrote:
A monk broke his fast, and his senior told him it was best to die than to break his fast. This advice was STUPID and ILLEGAL.
Why? Because ALREADY there is a sense of guilt over breaking your fast. ALREADY its a serious issue. That advice could have driven the monk to actually harm himself.
I've already seen Coptic Priests insist on people who have serious medical issues that they ought to fast anyway. It led many into worse medical conditions than they had.
This is total absurdity and folly. Whether a bishop/priest/monk is a saint, or not - is NONE of anyone's business. But to go and implement this wicked advice and superimpose it on the lives of others is simply irresponsible. WHich, from what I can see, you appear to be. IT WAS IN THE TRIAL PERIOD!!!!
I posted this advice during the last 7 days.. it was dedicated to such issues. The whole point of the trial period of fasting is to make these small mistakes before the 40 days starts. I attacked and rebuked a statement from a bishop as being illegal. It was ILLEGAL for him to say that. You are now attacking me personally; and so I put into question your own spirituality and spiritual caliber. I have seen people suffer tremendous physical harm from fasting when they should have been given allowance / permission to abstain from it for medical reasons. That advice that Bishop Karas said WAS ILLEGAL.. whether it applies to a monk or not. If it was said in the United States of America, he has broken the law.
That is a hugely irresponsible and perverse thing to suggest.
You should have had the wisdom and discernment to know what to post as an example. I would SERIOUSLY look at removing that quote from Anba Karas. It does the Church NO favours whatsoever. What clarification!!??
Let me make this clear. IF you were a sunday school servant, and you told this story to my young kids, I'd have found you and had you thrown out of the church, if not into jail!!! You cannot tell this story to children who are already impressionable.
If already we are taught the seriousness of fasting, and the punishment for not fasting is abstinence from the Holy Communion, what do you think a young mind reading your stupid story would think of if he/she is trying to grow spiritually? Do you have any idea that such extremism is not good for young adults???? Even for adults - its not good. Well, I would agree with that quote. I advise you to stick with John Chrysostom. My wife also said: "Why do these Copts on tasbeha.org like to act so holy and think they are so holy with their extremist stories?
I don't know.
But you do yourself NO FAVOURS!!!
Zoxasi, you seriously need to chill out. I think the fool is getting to you, lol.
I haven't had ONE spoonful of foule yet. Not at all.. I regret eating the fish. I wish i just had the salad and thrown the fish away.
I am annoyed is because the post by UnTrustWorthy is IRRESPONSIBLE!! Yes, that means also the advice of Anba Karas.
This is serious. Why am I so frustrated by it? Because I've seen it ruin people's lives, and the priests who have insisted that a sick man fasts haven't even cared to see if he is doing well or not. So, you'd think that they'd have had the decency and compassion if they are going to insist on someone medically ill to fast TO AT THE VERY LEAST call the guy up and see if he's OK during the 40 days??RIGHT?
No.. they just buried them in guilt saying that they cannot make allowances for them. I think I should have.. but i'm not sure. If I don't eat well, I cannot concentrate. I still am judging what I should do if this happens. Its a very difficult situation. I was responding to his use of the example of Anba Karas's story with the monk that broke his fast. That story, if it happened in the USA, is illegal.
If his health (the monk's) deteriorates to the point of illness, then the abbot would be to blame. That's IRRESPONSIBLE!! ITS FOOLISH... and we have silly kids thinking that somehow this advice is right???
Learn to respect the law first and then talk to me about fasting!!!!!!!!
Zoxsasi,
I have a question, even though I have NOTHING to do with this, I just want peace because whatever is happening in this thread is unchristian like whether its coming from you or someone else.
What do you want now?
Why are you asking me for?? Did I say anything like: I responded to a thread that i found dangerous. In fact, in my opinion, anyone can copy this thread to any other forum would be able to bring negative publicity to the Church, if not even have the monastery investigated.
If that is the spiritual advice being given in a monastery where Coptic Youth may spend their time, then such stories make us look like some perverted cult rather than a Church.
Someone tell me that what Bishop Karas said was not illegal. He is responsible for the spiritual well being of his flock. That advice is just plain irresponsible.
Im glad I started this thread. Its proven to me where problems in the Church come from.
Its proven to me that a monk/priest/bishop can do wrong things and yet the congregation would still uphold it if not magnify it as being "holy".
Some guy told me a story of a priest that was continuously being praised for his holiness. He was clairvoyant and could apparently predict the future and other stuff in people's lives. To avoid pride and to avoid getting people to honour him, he swore at someone's mother and offended this guy.
The guy telling me the story said :"wow!!! Look! Look how brilliant he was. He offended some guy and swore at his mother so that others would not think that he is saint. I wish I could be like him".
Apparently, he witnessed the swearing, and told me what the priest had said. It was COMPLETELY VULGAR.
I met this same man again in Church today, and I love him VERY much.. i love him because I feel he has a really good heart, but its very fanatical still.
I just find that this story is sick and this story of ANba Karas is sick, and fact that Unworthy finds this story in ANYWAY remotely spiritual as being "sick".
Unworthy:
Read this: Let me post it again for you: These are the words of someone that wants to teach me about fasting.
And you are asking me what I want??? lol..
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23
Are we loving each other now? Is there peace within your heart (when you have thoughts of murdering someone), how about goodness?
Its all about faith too, I wonder what you would have done if you were in Abraham's position? Would you have hunted down God?
Rather as our blessed Fr. Peter has said MULTIPLE times, life in the Orthodox way is about living your life as Christ did and try to reach back to the very image we were created upon.
No one should ever ask "is breaking my fast a sin?" rather one should ask "what will bring me closer to the image i was created upon?". But our goal, without reservation, should be to attain that image, struggling day-in and day-out to achieve that, by the grace of God. That is what His Grace the late Bishop Karas was helping his spiritual son to achieve. Your comments are irresponsibly placed, as His Grace the late Bishop Karas was not ordering a suicide command, rather he was teaching his son how to prioritize, placing one's body after one's desire to reach back to the divine image we were unworthily made upon.
May God give us the strength to continually strive to that same image He graced us with that we may be worthy to be one of His sons and daughters.
God bless
Who are you Zoxsasi to imply the blessed Bishop Karas is an idiot?!
His advice was obviously hyperbolic. You should not take things so literally. If you are willing to die for something it completely changes your mindet. If I am willing to die to keep the commandments, it is different than if I am willing to suffer a lot but when things get tough I'll break them. The same applies to fasting. If you are willing to die to keep your fast, than you will do EVERYTHING in your power to keep it. If you will keep it as long as it's convenient you will not.
The monk he was advising had the latter mindset. He did not do everything he could to keep his fast. He broke it because he did not want to take the time to prepare food and was really tired.
The fast is meant to help you grow spiritually as you say, but if you create posts asking us about whether you eating a fish salad or using dairy creamer is OK than it is clear YOU are missing the point.
I am surprised that someone who would post such vile comments has kids! If you re-read your posts, you sound like some twisted psychopath. I urge you to apologize and take back what you said.
To honestly believe that an abbot of a monastery or me or anyone else in the Orthodox church would rather see someone die than eat some meat reveals a level understanding equivalent to that of a four year old child. I expected this reaction from a 1st grade Sunday school class, not someone with kids.
Rather than rashly jump to conclusions about how sick I might be, it would have been far more prudent to ask me to clarify what I meant by my post.
You have made yourself lose your peace and others in the process. I remind you of the words of St. John Chrysostom:
"Fasting is a medicine. But like all medicines, though it be very profitable to the person who knows how to use it, it frequently becomes useless (and even harmful) in the hands of him who is unskillful in its use."
Unworthy,
I think I owe you a huge apology. I think I mis-understood the meaning of your thread.
I had a discussion with my wife who actually explained to me your point of view.
If you are saying that a monk is already dead and therefore it would have been spiritually BETTER for him to have died in his fast than to have broken it, then I would agree. But as I said, this isn't wise advice to tell someone who is not a monk.
My apologies if I misunderstood you.
Please forgive me.
Zoxasi, it's not just because he is a monk. Haven't you heard of God's grace?
I think you may have misunderstood the issue.
What Anba Karras said to the monk was based on the fact that the monk was already dead to the world. It would have been better for him had he died in his fast than break it. Which is true.
He'd have attained more.
This is quite an interesting issue because I do notice that because we are a Church which has a high monastic population, the monks tend to propagate what is applicable to them on us.
But fair game, what anba karas said to that monk is right for him. I just don't think such severity should apply to people who are not yet "dead to this world".