Fr. Anthony once made the observation that the Bible talks about giving financially so many times (I think he mentioned a number, but I don't remember it; it was very large) because God knows how important money is to us. I thought that was an interesting way to look at it. In a sense it is easy to give of your talents or to do very general "good works", but there's a reason why the phrase is "put your money where your mouth is", and not "put your volunteering at an elementary school where your mouth is" or something like that... ;)
You're welcome. This is a commandment alright, and one that has not been changed in the NT. In fact in the NT it has been enhanced with Love, by giving further and donating more.
Please read these verses in the OT:
Genesis 14:20 Genesis 28:22 Deuteronomy 14:22-24 Malachi 3:8-10 and in, Proverbs 3 9 Honor the LORD with your possessions, And with the firstfruits of all your increase; 10 So your barns will be filled with plenty, And your vats will overflow with new wine.
Proverbs 19 17 He who has pity on the poor lends to the LORD, And He will pay back what he has given.
And these in the NT: Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Luke 12:33 Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys.
Also read Luke 11:41 and Mark 10:21.
By giving tithe and alms we practically honor the Lord and thank Him. In return the Lord promised to bless and multiply the Church's resources like when He did in the miracle of feeding the five thousand men and their companions with five barley loaves and two small fish, in John 6.
Remember that when we ask from God, He initially gives to all liberally and without reproach.
Thank you. Thank you one and all for making one thing clear to me. No one here seems to be able to read. At all. What do they teach people in school these days? Honestly. I dare anyone to show me where I said we should not pay tithes. Anyone. Some of you seem to have you head shoved so far up that it makes reading impossible. Well, if that's what you want, enjoy. I, for the life of me, cannot see how that can be comfortable at all. They say ignorance is bliss. I think that it's more along the lines of illiteracy is bliss. Reading and verbal comprehension are skills I urge you all to acquire. Seriously.
I dare anyone to show me where I said we should not pay tithes.
If I may say something, I believe ILSM was piggybacking on your understanding of monetary tithes, not whether one should pay tithes. It shouldn't be considered as service or a charitable act, as some have put it, it's a duty and responsibility on our part. 100% of our earnings belong to God; however, we are only asked to return 10% because our Lord is understanding and merciful.
Whether or not you pay tithes is not anyone's business, but your understanding of it is incorrect. Returning a portion of your earnings is not the same as giving God 10% of your time today. We can't replace tithes with 15 minutes of prayer in the morning. As ILSM stated earlier, everyone is capable and there are no exceptions. You would think the poor widow with only two copper coins would be exempt from monetary tithes, but our Lord uses her as an example to teach the rest of us.
Monetary tithes is an appreciation and reminder of an undeserved reward given to us.
I have always stated I was illiterate, Cephas. You are not revealing anything new to me. However, I think that your view and how you presented it is wrong.
I do take your descriptives (with sexual vulgarity) as completely with in line of the "hypocrite" concept. Maybe you need an education in argumentation without being vulgar.
Some of you seem to have you head shoved so far up that it makes reading impossible.
If you do not know what the meaning of the terminology you used, then you need someone to teach you. Perhaps you may find counsel from your father, mother, or FOC.
I may be ignorant and illiterate, but I am not vulgar.
You also may name me directly, you don't have to be shy and feign the aspect of being spiritual. I'm a big boy I can defend myself well.
I think the discussion about forcing people to pay tithes has been done wrongly (you both agree I think). The Church (I presume) is not in favour of using violence to force those who do not pay tithes. This is the point. This is where we differ with Islam. Islam forces people to pay zaka't and jizya with violence from the Islamic state, while Orthodoxy does not want to force (with violence) people to give their property. People are obliged morally, but not punished by other individuals on earth, we're only judged by our God.
Of course Orthodox people should pay tithes, pray, fast. But it is always wrong to use violence to let another Orthodox individual to pay tithes, pray and fast with the threat of violence.
Unless one has homeless people in mind, with no possessions or money whatsoever, everyone has something to give. Putting aside the homeless, who literally cannot tithe, it is without a doubt an imperative that those who have money MUST give it - no matter how much.
How can one give God their heart when they have not given Him their money?
Let us look at an extreme example to shed light on this discussion. It is always with extremes that we can come to conclusions more quickly.
Harold is a rich man. He inherited billions of dollars from his father who made a fortune in the stock market. Harold is a deacon in the church, serves day and night with abouna, fasts and prays, confesses regularly, reads his bible daily, etc. However, Harold has never donated to the church - monetarily at least. He gives his time, his body, his emotions to the church, but never his money. He has billions in the bank and he never shares it. His church is full of poor people - they need food, clothing, books, etc. His church is in need of repair - they need to pay the construction workers, they need materials and parts, they need to pay the loans they have already taken out, etc. Everyone in the congregation has already given their 10% monetary tithe . . . everyone except Harold that is. If he were to give his 10% tithe all the church's problems would be solved. But since he believes that giving the Lord his heart has nothing to do with money and that he is not obliged to give money in any way, he does not. He has already given his life to the service.
-If your intuition tells you that Harold must give his money to the church, I don't think anyone would disagree with you. He MUST give his tithe, not to do so would make him a heartless person. How can he watch his church and people decay and not offer from the abundance of his money?! But Harold has done no injustice to the people. He has not stolen from them or the church. He actually serves them both daily. But it is clear to us that Harold is doing something wrong. It is clear to us because we know that his money is actually God's money. To keep it to himself and not give it back to the church to be given to those in need is just as bad as robbery.
As St. John Chrysostom writes in his book, On Wealth and Poverty, "For our money is the Lord's, however we may have gathered it" (pg.49).
Since the rich man is REQUIRED to give from his abundance, why should the poor be any different? To the poor it is an even greater blessing because when they give from their need it reveals that they have truly given God their heart because they have put complete faith and trust in Him to provide.
If the poor were to serve in the church daily but never donate because they fear becoming homeless, they have not put complete trust in God. Maybe they would have given 99% of their heart to God - but God wants that remaining 1%.
This is not a matter of amounts; it is not a matter of whether one needs the money or not. It is a matter of giving back to God what He has given you.
Monetary tithing is an imperative. Whether one has an abundance of money or a lack of it - it is required.
By saying that we should pay tithes, but that we don't have to if we are poor, leads to the question - why do we require the rich to tithe? If both the rich and the poor have been given their money from God, why hold the rich to a higher standard than the poor?
Sure tithing may be one of the least important things in the eyes of God who sees the heart. But, "He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much..." (Luke 16:10)
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11009.msg133810#msg133810 date=1300909934] Everyone with even a penny in their pocket is obliged to give a tithe.
A tithe is a minimum amount.
The issue is whether one wishes to do so or not; plain and simple with no flowery talk [or vulgarity for that matter].
Then excuse me for misunderstanding.
I thought that the disagreement came from the comparison with Islam and 'forcing' (an ambiguous term) people to pay tithes.
But a question to you ilovesaintmark. What if people do not comply? What should other individuals on earth do the individual that does not pay tithes? Just to make things clear.
Ok. Everyone take a deep breath. If we sit down and try to understand what the other side is trying to say we can get a better understanding.
What I think Cephas is trying to say is that it is important to be giving cheerfully and not out of mere obligation. ILSM is saying that it is obligatory so we should not be boastful.
Perhaps St. Paul sums it up best (note this is not talking about tithes but has the same idea): "or if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship."
So necessity is laid on Saint Paul, but if he does it against his will, he says "What is my reward then?"
I find that if you add the two views together you get a better view in this situation. Rather than all arguing if we sit and sort through things peacefully we can see that there may be no difference in views.
I beg to disagree about your formula. The Lord owns the $100 that He gave you the chance to earn. He is Merciful to grant you $90 to keep and asks that you return only $10.
As for the division of the money that is not my place to give advice.
All I can say relative to my own experience is relative to my previous post.
Ilovestmark, I have considered the fact that everything belongs to God,my formula was meant to get an idea what a tithe constitutes. You have explained a number of things.If I got you correctly,I think,you are saying tithing is an obligation (because not doing so is tantamount to robbing the Lord), while giving alms is what??purely a free choice? It is not clear to me if there is any difference between donations, alms,charity Vs tithes? If I know my church is in need of my tithe, how should I react to the needs of other churchs ? How do I decide where to tithe? thanks in advance.
Sorry, binC. I really didn't mean to start this argument in your thread. I only asked here about how to tithe because my own thread asking the same question only got 1 reply that didn't really tell me the information I needed, and this thread seemed active so I thought maybe people would answer it. I guess it's true you should be careful what you wish for. :)
The miracle of my tithing is simple, yet profound: I have never been in need of money. I do not work, yet have been going to a four year university completely free and have been receiving scholarships. I donate and do not save up money. God always provides at the perfect time. I will offer an example. My uncle in Egypt has been very sick as of late (pray for him). He is in need of money. I sent most of what I had and knew God would provide. Miraculously the woman who sponsors one of the scholarships I receive emailed me telling me she would send me the money early this year. Instead of in the fall, she will send it in the spring. The same money I sent to Egypt was returned to me. God truly takes care of His children.
It is ok dzheremi, it looks like we need a clear meaning of tithe and our definite responsibility. I just think that the Lord put is so clearly that we need to give 10% back to Him otherwise we are thieves. But still money is refered as "lord" in the Bible just to stress how hard it is for humans to take it lightly. Our weakness is looking at the 10% we give but miss the million% that is coming from God just through the window we put the 10%.
It is OK to ask, may God guide us to understand things in a better way.
Matthew 22 (NKJV) 16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men. 17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the tax money.” So they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Also read Mark 12:17
In these NT verses our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a direct command by explicitly saying "Render". Note that He said this while holding and using a real coin (the dinarius is money) in His hand. These Holy Bible verses answer any possible controversy, this is the direct proof that giving tithes is an obligation from our side to God who is the King of kings. So we must pay taxes and more importantly we must honor and thank God by giving tithes.
The widow our Lord praised did put real money and she did this even while she badly needed it. Tithes are not really much considering God is Almighty, but He is merciful too. I think binC wants to discuss the ways the Lord lovingly returns to us this money multiplied with more blessing.
Thanks ilovesaintmark for referring to these beautiful Sirach's verses.
Unworthy1, Thank you so much for sharing what God has done for you. Such stories edify weak people, glorify God. This was the intention of the thread. I want to hear the REWARD of God. God is always Faithful to those who Trust Him.
Comments
Which Father Anthony?
You're welcome. This is a commandment alright, and one that has not been changed in the NT. In fact in the NT it has been enhanced with Love, by giving further and donating more.
Please read these verses in the OT:
Genesis 14:20
Genesis 28:22
Deuteronomy 14:22-24
Malachi 3:8-10
and in,
Proverbs 3
9 Honor the LORD with your possessions, And with the firstfruits of all your increase;
10 So your barns will be filled with plenty, And your vats will overflow with new wine.
Proverbs 19
17 He who has pity on the poor lends to the LORD,
And He will pay back what he has given.
And these in the NT:
Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Luke 12:33
Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys.
Also read Luke 11:41 and Mark 10:21.
By giving tithe and alms we practically honor the Lord and thank Him. In return the Lord promised to bless and multiply the Church's resources like when He did in the miracle of feeding the five thousand men and their companions with five barley loaves and two small fish, in John 6.
Remember that when we ask from God, He initially gives to all liberally and without reproach.
GBU
Thank you. Thank you one and all for making one thing clear to me. No one here seems to be able to read. At all. What do they teach people in school these days? Honestly. I dare anyone to show me where I said we should not pay tithes. Anyone. Some of you seem to have you head shoved so far up that it makes reading impossible. Well, if that's what you want, enjoy. I, for the life of me, cannot see how that can be comfortable at all. They say ignorance is bliss. I think that it's more along the lines of illiteracy is bliss. Reading and verbal comprehension are skills I urge you all to acquire. Seriously.
Whether or not you pay tithes is not anyone's business, but your understanding of it is incorrect. Returning a portion of your earnings is not the same as giving God 10% of your time today. We can't replace tithes with 15 minutes of prayer in the morning. As ILSM stated earlier, everyone is capable and there are no exceptions. You would think the poor widow with only two copper coins would be exempt from monetary tithes, but our Lord uses her as an example to teach the rest of us.
Monetary tithes is an appreciation and reminder of an undeserved reward given to us.
However, I think that your view and how you presented it is wrong.
I do take your descriptives (with sexual vulgarity) as completely with in line of the "hypocrite" concept.
Maybe you need an education in argumentation without being vulgar. If you do not know what the meaning of the terminology you used, then you need someone to teach you. Perhaps you may find counsel from your father, mother, or FOC.
I may be ignorant and illiterate, but I am not vulgar.
You also may name me directly, you don't have to be shy and feign the aspect of being spiritual. I'm a big boy I can defend myself well.
My address was not to you.
It was directed at my vulgar friend, Cephas.
dzheremi,
Which Father Anthony?
I'm sorry. Fr. Anthony Messeh of St. Mark's, DC.
Of course Orthodox people should pay tithes, pray, fast. But it is always wrong to use violence to let another Orthodox individual to pay tithes, pray and fast with the threat of violence.
How can one give God their heart when they have not given Him their money?
Let us look at an extreme example to shed light on this discussion. It is always with extremes that we can come to conclusions more quickly.
Harold is a rich man. He inherited billions of dollars from his father who made a fortune in the stock market. Harold is a deacon in the church, serves day and night with abouna, fasts and prays, confesses regularly, reads his bible daily, etc. However, Harold has never donated to the church - monetarily at least. He gives his time, his body, his emotions to the church, but never his money. He has billions in the bank and he never shares it. His church is full of poor people - they need food, clothing, books, etc. His church is in need of repair - they need to pay the construction workers, they need materials and parts, they need to pay the loans they have already taken out, etc. Everyone in the congregation has already given their 10% monetary tithe . . . everyone except Harold that is. If he were to give his 10% tithe all the church's problems would be solved. But since he believes that giving the Lord his heart has nothing to do with money and that he is not obliged to give money in any way, he does not. He has already given his life to the service.
-If your intuition tells you that Harold must give his money to the church, I don't think anyone would disagree with you. He MUST give his tithe, not to do so would make him a heartless person. How can he watch his church and people decay and not offer from the abundance of his money?! But Harold has done no injustice to the people. He has not stolen from them or the church. He actually serves them both daily. But it is clear to us that Harold is doing something wrong. It is clear to us because we know that his money is actually God's money. To keep it to himself and not give it back to the church to be given to those in need is just as bad as robbery.
As St. John Chrysostom writes in his book, On Wealth and Poverty, "For our money is the Lord's, however we may have gathered it" (pg.49).
Since the rich man is REQUIRED to give from his abundance, why should the poor be any different? To the poor it is an even greater blessing because when they give from their need it reveals that they have truly given God their heart because they have put complete faith and trust in Him to provide.
If the poor were to serve in the church daily but never donate because they fear becoming homeless, they have not put complete trust in God. Maybe they would have given 99% of their heart to God - but God wants that remaining 1%.
This is not a matter of amounts; it is not a matter of whether one needs the money or not. It is a matter of giving back to God what He has given you.
Monetary tithing is an imperative. Whether one has an abundance of money or a lack of it - it is required.
By saying that we should pay tithes, but that we don't have to if we are poor, leads to the question - why do we require the rich to tithe? If both the rich and the poor have been given their money from God, why hold the rich to a higher standard than the poor?
Sure tithing may be one of the least important things in the eyes of God who sees the heart. But, "He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much..." (Luke 16:10)
I don't think any post, on my part, imparted that thought.
It is an obligation of human existence.
Cephas, implies that one can substitute services or ministry for the financial responsibility.
They are not open for barter to God.
A tithe is a minimum amount.
The issue is whether one wishes to do so or not; plain and simple with no flowery talk [or vulgarity for that matter].
Everyone with even a penny in their pocket is obliged to give a tithe.
A tithe is a minimum amount.
The issue is whether one wishes to do so or not; plain and simple with no flowery talk [or vulgarity for that matter].
Then excuse me for misunderstanding.
I thought that the disagreement came from the comparison with Islam and 'forcing' (an ambiguous term) people to pay tithes.
But a question to you ilovesaintmark. What if people do not comply? What should other individuals on earth do the individual that does not pay tithes? Just to make things clear.
We have to deal with God and our conscience, and the effects of our inaction towards our obligations.
We miss out on an opportunity to carry out the Will of God.
I did not state in any post that there should be an imposition of penalty by any temporal institution or by the Church.
The IRS has dibs on financial penalties. The Church is not the IRS when it comes to tithes.
What I think Cephas is trying to say is that it is important to be giving cheerfully and not out of mere obligation.
ILSM is saying that it is obligatory so we should not be boastful.
Perhaps St. Paul sums it up best (note this is not talking about tithes but has the same idea): "or if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship."
So necessity is laid on Saint Paul, but if he does it against his will, he says "What is my reward then?"
I find that if you add the two views together you get a better view in this situation.
Rather than all arguing if we sit and sort through things peacefully we can see that there may be no difference in views.
Mozes,
I beg to disagree about your formula. The Lord owns the $100 that He gave you the chance to earn. He is Merciful to grant you $90 to keep and asks that you return only $10.
As for the division of the money that is not my place to give advice.
All I can say relative to my own experience is relative to my previous post.
Ilovestmark, I have considered the fact that everything belongs to God,my formula was meant to get an idea what a tithe constitutes. You have explained a number of things.If I got you correctly,I think,you are saying tithing is an obligation (because not doing so is tantamount to robbing the Lord), while giving alms is what??purely a free choice? It is not clear to me if there is any difference between donations, alms,charity Vs tithes? If I know my church is in need of my tithe, how should I react to the needs of other churchs ? How do I decide where to tithe? thanks in advance.
SIRACH 35: 1-10
I think it hammers the point quite well about our financial obligation.
Our weakness is looking at the 10% we give but miss the million% that is coming from God just through the window we put the 10%.
Matthew 22 (NKJV)
16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men. 17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the tax money.” So they brought Him a denarius.
20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?”
21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.”
And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
Also read Mark 12:17
In these NT verses our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a direct command by explicitly saying "Render". Note that He said this while holding and using a real coin (the dinarius is money) in His hand. These Holy Bible verses answer any possible controversy, this is the direct proof that giving tithes is an obligation from our side to God who is the King of kings. So we must pay taxes and more importantly we must honor and thank God by giving tithes.
The widow our Lord praised did put real money and she did this even while she badly needed it. Tithes are not really much considering God is Almighty, but He is merciful too. I think binC wants to discuss the ways the Lord lovingly returns to us this money multiplied with more blessing.
Thanks ilovesaintmark for referring to these beautiful Sirach's verses.
GBU
Thanks for the verses from the book of Sirach.