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Losing Trust in God
Hi,
I'm not sure if anyone has been through this or not, but, have you ever lost trust in God?
Have you ever prayed for something and the outcome has made you lose your peace? And actually, before even praying for it, you couldn't really mind whichever option or outcome happened (i.e. either the door closed, or opened... you're not really insisting on a particular outcome).
Surely that would make you lose trust in God ? Just as much as someone could believe in God by praying for something and seeing it realized, the same applies for praying for something and seeing only bad things come from it.
I don't think this will make one atheist.. It just makes you dislike God. No?
I'm not sure if anyone has been through this or not, but, have you ever lost trust in God?
Have you ever prayed for something and the outcome has made you lose your peace? And actually, before even praying for it, you couldn't really mind whichever option or outcome happened (i.e. either the door closed, or opened... you're not really insisting on a particular outcome).
Surely that would make you lose trust in God ? Just as much as someone could believe in God by praying for something and seeing it realized, the same applies for praying for something and seeing only bad things come from it.
I don't think this will make one atheist.. It just makes you dislike God. No?
Comments
??? huh?
Have you ever lost trust in God to the point where you don't even bother praying anymore?
the thing is you don't know whats best for you, God does. God does what he knows is best, because you don't know what's best for you. If I get cancer and I ask for the doctor to help me, he will probably make me undergo chemotherapy. In the short term all I can see is bad, bad, bad, and it may make me dislike the doctor. However if I'm smart, I'll know that this is good and necessary if I am to be cured.
We don't pray to God so that he can do stuff for us. This is not the point of our relationship with him. God is not a magic genie who gives us infinite wishes, and if he doesn't carry out a wish, we get upset at him. This is not how our relationship with God should function. If we truly trust in him, we will say "Lord, I do not understand anything that is going on, but nevertheless let Your will be done." and we will ask him to show us the wisdom behind it so we can also understand.
Zoxsasi,
the thing is you don't know whats best for you, God does. God does what he knows is best, because you don't know what's best for you. If I get cancer and I ask for the doctor to help me, he will probably make me undergo chemotherapy. In the short term all I can see is bad, bad, bad, and it may make me dislike the doctor. However if I'm smart, I'll know that this is good and necessary if I am to be cured.
We don't pray to God so that he can do stuff for us. This is not the point of our relationship with him. God is not a magic genie who gives us infinite wishes, and if he doesn't carry out a wish, we get upset at him. This is not how our relationship with God should function. If we truly trust in him, we will say "Lord, I do not understand anything that is going on, but nevertheless let Your will be done." and we will ask him to show us the wisdom behind it so we can also understand.
Yeah, but there are some things in life that we do not know, where we have to depend on God for.
Surely, its awful to pray to God to reveal to you or to protect you from a situation, only to find that it would have been better to not even ask.
When the result is you lose your peace, and it results in you sinning.. that cannot be from God.
I think if the result is sinful, then you cannot argue and say " Well.. zoxsasi, God allows bad things happen to test you, or to build you". If God hates in so much, I doubt that the situation I'm in would have been His will.
Its not as if I was bothered at which direction a particular event went - its not as if I insisted on my own will. Not at all.
Has this ever happened to anyone where you just say to yourself: "I think its best I don't ask God for anything, before He ruins my life?"
Peace as the Lord give us is NOT our peace. It is not peace that is dependent on context or circumstance. Sure, there are many things that may happen in life that may cause you to lose your peace. But God's peace is something different. God has given it to you, but sometimes it is hard to feel it when we are so consumed with our own peace and our own ideas of what should be God's will in our lives.
Perhaps it would help you to pray the third hour in the Agpeya, wherein the coming of the Holy Spirit is commemorated. It helps me to feel God's peace to remember this.
Thanks.. that's very true. I can relate to the fact that Christ's peace is more real than anything that we can expect to receive from others - but, wouldn't you expect your prayers or your trust in God to be fruitful?
This is about trusting in God and seeing bad things happen.
This is something that I'm also trying to deal with in my own life. I would be surprised if it wasn't something that everybody has to deal with at some point. It's so hard to understand, right? God is so inscrutable...or so it seems.
But one thing I have learned is that the more I spend time with Him, the less it seems like He just does whatever He wants without hearing me. I'm no theologian, so please don't take my personal wondering as anything more than that, but it seems to me that even in the composition of the psalms we can find some idea of how God is. Not that we can know His "mind", but we can certainly see how David, who I know is a better follower of God than I am, also struggled as we struggle. In thousands of years, nothing has changed in that regard. How many psalms begin in exasperation? "How long, O Lord, do you forget me? For ever?" Yet none of them end that way. They end with praise and gladness, but is hard won. I think that is the key. That only through trial do we advance, because that is the only way it has ever been.
It's not an easy or "nice" answer, but I haven't seen anything that contradicts this. How many miracles happen to rich, comfortable, and content people? I can't think of any. When someone who is comfortable and without any needs continues to be comfortable, no one ever thinks that is a miracle, do they? More often you hear of stories where a rich man loses or gives away all his riches, and THAT is a kind of miracle, because that's the only thing that changes such people. And so God works miracles through great destruction and hardship. But we don't like that kind of miracle...it's not "fair". ;D
And so in those cases where there is so much suffering and no amount of prayer seems to bring relief, maybe we are just looking at it the wrong way. For a personal example, I will look to my own life. My mother, who was nothing if not a committed follower of God, died a horribly painful death of cancer at a very young age. As she raised me a Christian, you can bet I tried in vain to pray us all out of that situation. And it didn't work. Or at least, that's how I saw things for so long. And that understanding caused me so much and estrangement from God. It wasn't until I had matured a bit that I could see that if I looked at things from my mother's perspective rather than my own, there might be a miracle there after all. It doesn't mean I understand things correctly now, but surely if not a miracle there is definitely sweet relief for the one who has been so good in keeping close to God despite the worst of circumstances prevailing. And that person in this situation wasn't me (even though I was praying as best as I could); it was my mother. And so God took my mother in accordance with His will, and she no longer suffered. It left me angry and hurt and lashing out for a long time, but...well, I'm here now, aren't I? Again, God sometimes works miracles through great destruction.
It's not "nice", but God's peace is not the world's peace. And sometimes it takes an awful lot for us to realize that. Can I say it would have been better to have never prayed to God, since I didn't get what I wanted in that situation, and it led me to years of great sin (rejecting God)? I wouldn't. Or at least I wouldn't now, though I probably would have then. But I couldn't have gotten to now without first going through then.
No I wouldn't lose my trust in GOD, or think life is so comfortable as to make me apathetic. Jesus Christ has offered me a reward, first of all believing in him, and second for staying with him in obediance of his commandments. Love GOD and love your neighbour.
For me love is brave and about growth and if it is brave, then well I guess, the question is whether to take action or not take action?
Being humble makes me a good listener not to myself but to other people and from there I know whether I'm in communion with GOD or not. If I was proud I would have confidence in whatever I was into. So from there, understanding what is true, I can fight the sin that is in me and in those who sin against me, rebuking both.
When it comes to suffering, I take it as GOD edifying me away from sin, and as a lesson, I'm happy to take it. I think there are many things today that make us comfortable but it is as hard for a rich man to get to Heaven, that it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.
If I pray for GOD's mercy for you Zoxsasi, then in this world I hope your sufferings aren't more than you think you can cope with and on judgement day you did your best fighting the weaknesses that we all share.
That's your new nickname btw.
Yea, I've been there, and I'm sure I'll be there again someday.
Sometimes its not enough to hear that "God knows what's best", mainly because, whether you want or not, a trust has been broken. Which only means you expected something different.
It's good you lost trust in God, mainly because it shows you had some to begin with. You're not lukewarm like people are out there, who couldn't care less either way. I'm encouraged by your faith, even your self-proclaimed lack-of, because it shows that there's SOMETHING going on.
Look at the great saints of our past, and even our current lifetime. They grow old in peace because they wrestled when they were young. Part of that growing in faith means the losing and gaining of trust. It means learning and experiencing real hardships, things about reality we wish never existed. Sometimes even being hurt by a person may shake our faith in God. Love is a very spiritual feeling, sometimes when we're heartbroken, it makes even that divine love seem out of reach.
From this and other posts, it's apparent you're going through a hard time. Invite God into the messiness of it all. Invite God into your place of non-trust. And if you don't want to pray, then don't. But never give up. Time definitely brings clarity to all things, and it's no wonder stories are told after the fact, because we can only tell a story once we know what happened. Whatever you're going through the story is not over yet.
Essentially, the second you lose trust in God, you always put yourself in a position where you simply can ruin God's plan for you. He mentioned examples where promises were made, and because of lack of trust in God, certain people took matter into their own hands which isn't what God wanted. One example is Abraham and Sarah. Because God promised Abraham a son and Sarah couldn't conceive, Sarah decided to let Hagar the servant bear a son to Abraham. Obviously, that wasn't God's plan, Hagar bore Ishmael. When Sarah then bore Isaac, Sarah started getting jealous, and sent Hagar and Ishmael to the wilderness! Another example I liked was Jacob and Esau. Rebecca, the mother, was told the prophecy of how the older brother will serve the younger. Because of that prophecy Rebecca also took matters into her own hands and made Jacob trick Isaac into giving him Esau's birthright. That in turn made Jacob and Esau become enemies. These are the results of our lack of trust in God! So yes, it happens, but I believe putting this into perspective helps us realize why we should trust God at all times.
GB
I loved reading them.
However, please do not be upset with me if I'm candid in expressing my feelings here:
I'm beginning to find praying pointless.
God has a mind of His own... why should I pray for things? Why should I trust God with my problems for?
What will that gain?
If I pray for something and God grants me my request, we pat God on the back and say "God is truly great for listening to my prayers"
If I pray for something and God does not allow it, we pat God on the back and say "God is truly great because He prevented something bad from happening"
If I pray for something and God allows it and something SO BAD happens, then you say "God is truly great because He allowed something bad to happen to test you, and help you grow"
So, what is the point of praying?? Surely God will do what He wants anyway??
I know praying is meant to build a relationship with God, without wanting ANYTHING, just to know someone who loves you (which I'm sure He does) - but who am I , and who is God? I have nothing to offer Him, nothing to really say to Him, nothing in common with Him, so, why should I pray for?
Isn't that just going to frustrate you and ruin your relationship with God anyway?
Sometimes, I feel that God has saved me from a bad situation. I do. I feel that God really has protected me - in many occasions. But I also feel he hasn't protected in many other occasions. So, unless God tells me IN PERSON why He allowed bad things to happen, I would generally prefer to leave God alone, and not disturb Him.
I'm beginning to find praying pointless.
God has a mind of His own... why should I pray for things? Why should I trust God with my problems for?
What will that gain?
If I pray for something and God grants me my request, we pat God on the back and say "God is truly great for listening to my prayers"
If I pray for something and God does not allow it, we pat God on the back and say "God is truly great because He prevented something bad from happening"
If I pray for something and God allows it and something SO BAD happens, then you say "God is truly great because He allowed something bad to happen to test you, and help you grow"
This is interesting. What you are describing is something I have certainly felt, but I am learning to look at it differently. It is easy to say "See, it doesn't matter I do! And it doesn't matter God does, because He can ignore me and let me be miserable and He STILL gets to be the 'good guy'!" Well...yes! Yes! This is what I have started to learn about prayer: It stops feeling pointless or hollow precisely when your reflex in every circumstance is to praise God. It's hard to get there if you don't see any tangible benefit that would make it seem like a sensible action, but you've already demonstrated that you know that praying is not supposed to be a "quid pro quo" situation, so...I don't know, it seems like the thing that separates you and I from the great saints, who were certainly close to God despite definite hardship, is that they lived in prayer. They ran to God in every situation. If you can get to that level so that you are praying without even thinking about benefit or sensibility, but are doing it because you are open to God and want to communicate with Him as much as possible, then how can prayer be pointless? At that point it is something you do, like breathing or rising in the morning. I don't know exactly how to get there myself, but I am armed with the Bible, the Agpeya, and many, many examples of great people who came before me who show that it IS possible. But you're not going to get there if you give up early because you don't see the point. Please don't take this as belittling, because I really empathize with your feeling. I just know (like I wrote in my previous post) that sometimes it takes many, many years of "leaving God alone" before we realize that God isn't leaving us alone, and He isn't deaf to our pleas after all. Indeed He will. Maybe try a different prayer for a while? I know sometimes I find it hard to pray for something because I feel like a spoiled child who just wants more and more from God, without ever really giving anything back. At those times, I concentrate more on praying thankfully for all the blessings God has showered upon me, even though I don't deserve it. Everybody likes being thanked, right? :) None of us really have anything to offer God. He's God. He's not in need of anything. Luckily, prayer is about TAKING things from God -- strength, peace, comfort, and all those other things we don't have unless we take them from Him. And He wants to give all this and more to us! Looking at prayer this way really revolutionized my relationship with God and my life. And probably brought me to Orthodoxy since HH Pope Shenouda III taught me that... Oh it'll definitely frustrate you, but if you persist in it your relationship with God will be so much stronger. God has not protected me in 100% of my life, either, only the parts I couldn't get out of without His help. And even then I had to admit my culpability (by repentance), and do what I could do to show God that I was serious. There is an old Russian proverb that applies here: A man is drowning in the sea and so he cries out to God "God, save me! I am drowning!" God hears his cry and replies "Okay. First, you start swimming. I will do the rest."
If God shows up to you in person and tells you why He allows bad things to happen, please pass His answer along to the rest of us. It would settle a lot of restlessness.
I know praying is meant to build a relationship with God, without wanting ANYTHING, just to know someone who loves you (which I'm sure He does) - but who am I , and who is God? I have nothing to offer Him, nothing to really say to Him, nothing in common with Him, so, why should I pray for?
Zoxsasi,
Think of it this way, say for example, someone is engaged.. all that person wants to do is spend time with that person. When they are at work, they think about them. When they return from work, they call their beloved one. When the weekend comes, they want to spend quality time together, go on adventures, etc. They want to get to know their beloved one even more everyday. Why? Because they love them. This person has "nothing to offer" his beloved one, except love. This person doesn't want "anything" from their beloved, except love and to be with them.
That's like our relationship with God. However, the relationship we have with God is much deeper and intimate than that of a husband and wife. He is the Creator, our Creator, your Creator. Noone can compare themself with God, i agree (as you said "nothing in common with Him"). But God wants us to be in sync with Him, i.e "Be Holy as I am Holy", He wants us to have things in common with Him.. it's in our nature to be like Him.
Sin and the world has just corrupted us..that's why God's salvation, His birth, His crucifixion and resurrection came to be.
Also God is not limited like us. We can see the now, and we can remember the past, but God can see what will happen in the future. He does everything for our benefit according to the bigger picture. He wants to form us as clay, and God being the Potter.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11016.msg133367#msg133367 date=1300524176]
I'm beginning to find praying pointless.
God has a mind of His own... why should I pray for things? Why should I trust God with my problems for?
What will that gain?
If I pray for something and God grants me my request, we pat God on the back and say "God is truly great for listening to my prayers"
If I pray for something and God does not allow it, we pat God on the back and say "God is truly great because He prevented something bad from happening"
If I pray for something and God allows it and something SO BAD happens, then you say "God is truly great because He allowed something bad to happen to test you, and help you grow"
So, what is the point of praying?? Surely God will do what He wants anyway??
Isn't that just going to frustrate you and ruin your relationship with God anyway?
Sometimes, I feel that God has saved me from a bad situation. I do. I feel that God really has protected me - in many occasions. But I also feel he hasn't protected in many other occasions. So, unless God tells me IN PERSON why He allowed bad things to happen, I would generally prefer to leave God alone, and not disturb Him.
Don't let this make you not pray. Why? Because you can't just sit there and do nothing, i.e "leave God alone and not disturb Him". My F.O.C said, if we don't understand why such a bad thing has happened in our lives, ask God, why has this happened? Ask Him to let you understand. We shouldn't be distant with God just because we don't understand His ways. Tell Him, like Jacob did when he "wrestled with God". Tell Him i will not rest until You tell me. Tell Him how you feel; what you just told us. He understands you more than you do yourself.
All things being equal, and all people being equal in the eyes of God, either we have a real discrepancy over the idea of an all loving all providing God, or something else is at work. I think it's the latter.
I don't know if prayer is a way to control the universe. I don't know if prayer is supposed to be the way we get stuff, maybe it's much deeper than that.
There are a lot of things that are out of our control, there are wills of people that override what is good, and it affects us in ways that are not good.
These are the things I wrestled with for years. For me, I've come to accept that crap happens (but I use the other word.), however God is still good. I'm no more special for not getting my prayers answered about a loved one, than the fact that children go hungry daily, and you know they're praying for their bellies to fill. But in prayer is peace. Whether we like it or not, this world is full of disappointment, i think we pray because it helps us deal. Inviting God into the mess that we call life, sometimes, makes us heal, helps us be true.