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Technology In the Church
I feel like something needs to be said about the use of technology within our churches.
It almost seems like a requirement now that every church when it is being built, they get the Iconostasis put in and then the projectors and white screens right in front of them!!
Why is technology taking over our churches, there are some churches with not one book in them! some churches have a touchscreen on the Altar!!! why?
The Coptic Orthodox Church has been using books since books were invented.. so why the sudden change to the "latest and greatest" within the past few years??
i feel like soon we are going to have recorded liturgies just being played back on the church speakers every sunday. we wont need priests any more.. lol
ok maybe im exaggerating a bit.
but is my church the ONLY church that still uses books and does not have a projector and a white screen???
I think technology is not bad in itself, but it might not be a great help either. Is it really that difficult for churches to purchase liturgy books and Agpias? If they bought all of those books for the whole congregation it would probably cost less than the price of a projector and whitescreen.
does anyone else feel this way? or am i completely crazy?
It almost seems like a requirement now that every church when it is being built, they get the Iconostasis put in and then the projectors and white screens right in front of them!!
Why is technology taking over our churches, there are some churches with not one book in them! some churches have a touchscreen on the Altar!!! why?
The Coptic Orthodox Church has been using books since books were invented.. so why the sudden change to the "latest and greatest" within the past few years??
i feel like soon we are going to have recorded liturgies just being played back on the church speakers every sunday. we wont need priests any more.. lol
ok maybe im exaggerating a bit.
but is my church the ONLY church that still uses books and does not have a projector and a white screen???
I think technology is not bad in itself, but it might not be a great help either. Is it really that difficult for churches to purchase liturgy books and Agpias? If they bought all of those books for the whole congregation it would probably cost less than the price of a projector and whitescreen.
does anyone else feel this way? or am i completely crazy?
Comments
Forgive me, I just want you to put your thoughts into words so the reasoning behind your intuition is clear.
Researchers say that you can have about seven thoughts about one issue floating around in your mind at once and it isn't until you are forced to talk about it or write about it that things clear up.
So far you have said that you don't like the shift to technology. The only real argument I see in your post is that they are covering the icons - that is an easy fix.
What is wrong with churches not using books?
Maybe it is more cost-effective to use a projector?
What is wrong with the "latest and greatest" technology?
You aren't crazy. I have thought the same thing before.
It almost seems like a requirement now that every church when it is being built, they get the Iconostasis put in and then the projectors and white screens right in front of them!!
Why is technology taking over our churches, there are some churches with not one book in them! some churches have a touchscreen on the Altar!!! why?
why?! why not. if it makes things easy than why not?! Somthing is good out there. why not bring it in and use it.....quick example. Abouna Mikhael Tobia have problems seeing small text in books. Maybe Abouna Bishoy was to. to fix this, they have a big screen for him to read from. is that wrong?!.....is that overdoing? maybe a little but it is done for a reason. nope.....not since books were invented. many years after. printing books in fact only start around the time of Pope Cyril IV (abou al-eslah).....books was the new technology at that time and it was used and the Church took advantage of them. nope....many mnay churchs don't. new built churches try to architecture the church to have a place for them. i personally am against permanent positioning of screens....but not all think about that. I believe it is. if you don't take care of them after.....then don't by them at all....cuz now you are just wasting paper and money. you are not crazy. many bring this up....just not for the same reasons.
Our Fathers did not need to have sound systems in the Church and yet could address large cathedrals. Even the great Protestant preachers of the 18th and 19th century addressed thousands without sound systems and held people captivated for hours. I do wonder why every church now needs a sound system?
As for books, well people had hand written books, especially for the altar, and many Church books were only for the Church. People participated by knowing the Liturgy. I am not sure that it is better for everyone to follow along either with their nose in a book or on a screen. Many of the parts are not variable. Often if I am leading some prayers from the Agpeya before some activity I tell people not to pick up a book, since they generally know the prayers they will be praying, and can listen with attention to the prayers I am praying.
If someone has problem seeing small print in a book then the usual solution has been to print a large text version. This is not expensive or difficult nowadays.
As much as I love technology, I sometimes feel that technology is sometimes more of a distraction rather than a tool to help the services in the church. I feel that we sometimes depend on technology way too much.
I remember a few years back when our church first got a projector, it was the best thing ever because the whole church can sing the holy communion hymns together without papers being passed around etc. However there was one slight disadvantage. There were a few sundays when someone would trip the power cord of the projector and the church would go silent for a few minutes without the text on the screen!
Technology should serve to supplement rather than replace. Technology fails all the time and has issues, and causes distractions. When was the last time you were using a book in the liturgy and got a blue screen? I think both options should be available. At our church it's impossible to find a liturgy book during the liturgy.
Now I'm going to share a little personal secret which I really hate. In youth meetings many speakers like to read the bible off the screen rather than from the physical Holy Bible. I don't like that. I think youth will learn to use their bibles and know where books are and where to find verses if they physically have to look up a reference rather than look at the screen. Technology has made us lazy!
I personally love the simple candle light prayer with the Agpia (physical book) which makes it more heavenly and spiritual than staring at a screen.
Don't get me wrong I think technology is very important for the church. But if it is making us lazy, causing distractions and we rely on it heavily, then we need to reconsider how to use this tool in a proper way.
Thoughts to consider:
- Ask someone from the congregation to find the doxology of St Mary in the Liturgy book. I'm sure they won't know where to find it.
- A youth that is distant from God and only prays the Agpia from a screen at church will less likely be inclined to pray it from a book at home.
- Many bible studies encourage you to bring your own physical bible. Their must be a good reason for that.
I personally can't imagine a church without a sound system though. That is just beyond my imagination! lol
God Bless
Oujai
Technology has made us lazy!
This is basically it. Projectors and all that stuff might be great for a business meeting or a university lecture, but I don't think it is appropriate for praising God. The tactile experience of worship helps to involve all the senses in way that reading off a screen cannot. It seems that this aspect is becoming undervalued in favor of convenience. I don't like that.
I think my views about technology in the Church are fairly well known.
Our Fathers did not need to have sound systems in the Church and yet could address large cathedrals. Even the great Protestant preachers of the 18th and 19th century addressed thousands without sound systems and held people captivated for hours. I do wonder why every church now needs a sound system?
As for books, well people had hand written books, especially for the altar, and many Church books were only for the Church. People participated by knowing the Liturgy. I am not sure that it is better for everyone to follow along either with their nose in a book or on a screen. Many of the parts are not variable. Often if I am leading some prayers from the Agpeya before some activity I tell people not to pick up a book, since they generally know the prayers they will be praying, and can listen with attention to the prayers I am praying.
If someone has problem seeing small print in a book then the usual solution has been to print a large text version. This is not expensive or difficult nowadays.
I too have commented on this before, but my views have changed a bit. If you notice Father, we are the smartest generation in the history of Copts (not necessarily the most faithful ;) ). Since books were hard to get and people weren't educated on congregational responses, I'm assuming Sunday liturgies were rather difficult to participate in. Now that everything is at our finger tips, we can't give excuses for not knowing. I think technology is reviving our church (please don't attack me for saying that lol).
I forgot who said this, might have been ILSM, we live in the Golden Age... and I think technology played a big role in making that happen. I guess what I'm trying to say is, technology has helped our youth advance faster in faith than any other generation. How long did it take to learn a simple hymn in the early centuries? How long does it take now? How many of the youth knew the structure of the Liturgy? How many know now? How many people attended on Sundays... how many now? And on and on. We're just smarter than we were before.
Technology definitely has it disadvantages, but I think I'm more in favor of it.
Looking through the Raising of Incense the laity parts are straightforward and don't seem to me to generally require a book, let alone a projector system. There are some bits where it might be necessary to be reminded of things. But the majority of the service, for someone participating regularly, does not seem to me to require constant looking at a book. I think that I could get by just following the deacon and priests prayers with attention and only needing a bit of a reminder for the Doxologies perhaps.
I don't think this is the smartest generation by any means at all. Having technology can support stupidity and laziness as well. If no effort is required then no effort is expended. This is what humans are like. What value is there in learning the hymns effortlessly without becoming more spiritual? There will be a great many illiterate Egyptian peasants entering heaven before us. What makes you think they did not know the congregational responses. Look below. They are not complicated. But now we need a projector because we are so smart we can't remember these few words! This is very far from a Golden Age. This is an age when I fear for the future of the Church apart from God's faithfulness.
Our Father..
And with your spirit.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
And with your spirit.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
And with your spirit.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Let us sing with the angels: Glory be to God in the highest, peace on earth, goodwill towards men. We praise You, we bless You, we serve You, we worship You we confess to You, we proclaim Your glory, and we thank You for Your great glory. O’ Lord, the Heavenly King, God the Father Almighty, and our Lord the only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. O’ Lord, the Lamb of God and the Son of the Father, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy upon us, accept our supplications. You, Who sits at the right hand of the Father, have mercy upon us. For You alone are Holy. You alone are the Most High my Lord Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit. Glory be to GOD the Father. Amen. I give You blessing daily, and praise Your Holy Name forever and ever. Amen. Since the night, my spirit seeks You early, O’ my God, for Your commandments are the light that shines on the earth. Continually I pursue Your ways for You became a help to me. Early, my Lord, You shall hear my voice. Tomorrow, I stand before You and You shall see me.
Holy God, Holy Almighty, Holy Immortal who was born of the Virgin, have mercy upon us. Holy God, Holy Almighty, Holy
Immortal who was crucified for our sake, have mercy upon us. Holy God, Holy Almighty, Holy Immortal who arose from the
dead and ascended to the heavens, have mercy upon us.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and forever more. Amen. O’ Holy Trinity, have mercy upon
us. O’ Holy Trinity, have mercy upon us. O’ Holy Trinity, have mercy upon us. O’ Lord, forgive us our sins. O’ Lord, forgive us
our trespasses. O’ Lord, forgive us our transgressions. O’ God, be with those who are sick, heal them for the sake of Your Holy
Name. O’ Lord repose the souls of those who have passed over to You. O’ Lord, who is without fault, have mercy upon us, support
us and accept our prayers, for Thine is the glory, honour and triple holiness. Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord
bless us. Amen.
O’ Lord make us worthy to pray thankfully “Our Father who Art in Heaven....”
DOXOLOGIES
We honour you, Mother of the True Light and glorify you, O’ Holy Virgin Mother of God, for you gave birth to the Saviour of
the World. He came and saved our souls. Glory to You, our Master and King Jesus Christ, Pride of Apostles, Crown of
Martyrs, Joy of the righteous, Steadiness of the Churches, Remission of sins. We preach the Holy Trinity, of the One Divinity,
whom we worship and honour. Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord bless us. Amen.
THE CREED
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
And with your spirit.
Lord have mercy.
Alleluia.
Glory be to you, O Lord.
Be with us all.
Glory be to you, O Lord.
Let us worship our Saviour: the Lover-of-Mankind; for He had compassion on us: came and saved us. Blessed is the Father, the
Son and the Holy Spirit, the perfect Trinity: we worship and glorify.
And with your spirit.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Lord have mercy.
Amen. Lord have mercy.
Our Father..
Before you, O Lord.
And with your spirit.
Amen.
Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy.
Amen. Alleluia. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now, and forever, and to all ages.
Amen. We proclaim and say, O’ Our Lord, Jesus Christ, bless (the waters of the rivers, bless the seeds and the herbs trees, crops and fruits, the winds, the rains waters); may Your mercy and Your peace be a fortress unto Your people.
Save us and have mercy on us. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord bless. Amen.
Bless us. Lo, the metanoia. Forgive us.
Amen. Indeed He is.
Our Father..
And also with you.
When looking back at my ancestors, I really think my generation is the smartest. My grandparents didn't even know what a tasbeha was until they moved to the diaspora. They didn't know 90% of the responses or the structure of the Liturgy. And my grandparents weren't even that long ago! Their parents and grandparents were even more uneducated.
The majority in the earlier centuries we're as ignorant as the majority now.
While I do agree that being the Diaspora has allowed people to be more involved in the church, I don't agree that technology was necessarily a factor in people growing "faster" if you will. Think back to the history, the people who left Egypt for a better life weren't always that close to the church to begin with in Egypt, they took it for granted or simply didn't really care until they came. They felt like outsiders and had no sense of unity with the culture in the diaspora and missed the "gathering" aspect of the church, I wouldn't say necessarily the actual services(some do of course) Fast forward to now...A lot of people on this website have raised issues that they see the church as simply a gathering place for people to be social with each other instead of coming for a purpose of the liturgy or w/e service it may be because they are coming for the culture.
Now from a service standpoint, this happened due to almost a "force" of service than a want. You see little kids being ordained and they don't really even know whats going on. Or you see people who in egypt never would have served, serve now simply because there is no one else. I'm not speaking in big churches were deacons are in abundance but in the smaller churches in the diaspora. They learn because they must, not always because they want to.
people should know and have learned from their parents the responses to the liturgy
yes, technology is making us lazy! why does everything have to be easy at church? it may seem like its a no-brainer to some, but it really does change the way we think about the church and in turn, how we think about spiritual life.
My understanding is that to become a Pharisee the young candidate had to memorise the five books of the Torah. Monks used to learn all of the Psalms by heart. Of course having the Torah and the Psalms on an I-Phone makes accessing them much easier, but it probably makes memorising them much harder because it seems like it is not necessary.
In my own Protestant experience, the generation of my father's elders were very well read in the Scriptures and knew the Bible intimately. My own generation, despite our technological advantage, seems to hardly know the Scriptures at all.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit. John 4:24
If you find using sound systems and touch screen's distracting you from your spiritual worship, do one of the following:
#1 get rid of the sound systems and touch screens at the church.
#2 work on your spiritual relationship with God so that you may not be easily distracted by the outside world.
Maybe it does matter if we use a sound system or not, or projectors or not.
It is not only a matter of personal distraction. If something is detrimental to the spiritual life then the Church has a grave responsibility to consider what is allowed and what is forbidden.
1st, for Fr Peter....the reason we need sound systems now because back han, there was either small church where no mics were needed or there was huge cathedrals that were structured to echo sound and to also have a "mymer" (i think that's what it's called) where it's an area above the place of the Pope's throne now. That put the speaker in a high position in church that would also project sound. other than that, there are the many reasons of recording and broadcasting which i myself can't let go of.
2nd, I BELIEVE IN DETERMINATION!!!! no one will "memorize" a service of a hymn or anything without WANTING to do so. with or without a book, a pc, a screen, an ipad or whatever shows text; if they don't want to learn and memorize than they won't. bass keda.
I know in my church, we do not use the projectors during Agbeya prayers so everyone reads their own Psalm (we do have printed agbeyas).
But we will not be having projectors in any Church I ever serve in. Nor will I easily ever install a sound system. Nor will I ever countenance the routine recording of the Holy Mysteries.
There are many hundreds and thousands of large protestant churches in the UK. None of them ever had sound systems, and in all of them the preaching of sermons was conducted without difficulty for a hundred years. To speak clearly and be heard in a large setting is not difficult. It is another skill that should be taught.
I served in a Melekite church which has marble flooring and a huge dome with a high ceiling that is inlined with a special material to reflect sound. The shape of the ceiling also is designed for that purpose.No sound system no microphones ... I was impressed as the sound was better than the best sound system could ever generate.
Unfortunately, we as Copts do not generally take into account this aspect of worshiping and just want a building. I can attest to the fact that the more we depend on technology the more we are not motivated to memorization.
You don't have a back-up generator at St. Mary. What would happen if the electricity goes out?
Fr. Bishoy (of blessed memory) and Fr. Michael are exceptions that needed help relative to their conditions. It is not the norm for the needs that they have/had such as a monitor on the altar.
copticuser,
You don't have a back-up generator at St. Mary. What would happen if the electricity goes out?
Fr. Bishoy (of blessed memory) and Fr. Michael are exceptions that needed help relative to their conditions. It is not the norm for the needs that they have/had such as a monitor on the altar.
well... one of the projectors actually broke one morning when the power went out for 15 minutes...but also, Abouna Mikhail continued to pray without his monitor (it was still the prayer of Thanksgiving) and no one could hear him without the microphone...even the deacons who were standing on the Chorus. If Liturgies were like that everyday...I would not attend a church like that! It's the 21st century! The reason why our fathers did not use microphones was because they didn't have any! Same with computer screens! What is wrong with a digital book?
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11198.msg135323#msg135323 date=1302038540]
Well I guess people will do whatever they want.
But we will not be having projectors in any Church I ever serve in. Nor will I easily ever install a sound system. Nor will I ever countenance the routine recording of the Holy Mysteries.
There are many hundreds and thousands of large protestant churches in the UK. None of them ever had sound systems, and in all of them the preaching of sermons was conducted without difficulty for a hundred years. To speak clearly and be heard in a large setting is not difficult. It is another skill that should be taught.
What do protestants do? They sing all together and they listen to a man that speaks facing them. In our churches, 90% of the time, it is one person speaking and it is away from the congregation. Nowadays, most churches are not built to have sound bounce...especially since most churches currently are rented or are old churches. Even in my church, which is one of the few in the area that was actually built as a Coptic Church, it is difficult to hear in a church so large with quiet priests. Also, the church is too small for the whole congregation- even with 4 liturgies in one weekend. There are people with chairs sitting on the sides of the church. When there was no projectors, there were maybe 3 or 4 books to a pew. Not everyone would have books and even if you keep on buying books, it won't be enough. God gave us projectors and Power Point....why not use them for the glory of His name? I am guessing in the old days, before ovens, the Orban was made by hand and cooked over a fire. Now, we have machines that mix, roll, cut, rise and bake the Orban. Are we going to get rid of those also just because they are technology and they will affect our spiritual lives? I don't think so and I don't think so for the Screens and Projectors either (yes...i know the analogy was a stretch but I think you understand what I mean)
Well I guess you will do as you wish. I bake the breads for the Liturgy by hand when I make them. If you have so many people it would surely be better to have four churches doing evangelism over a much wider area?
Haha good one :D :D. Yeah that is 2500 families after 4 churches have been opened that are within 20 minutes from our church (Edison, Manville, Holmdel and Howell). Our priests said they are working on opening another church just 10 minutes away from our church in South River last December because of a high population of Coptic immigrants there but I haven't heard anything about it opening since then. It seems like after Jersey City was filled to the top, the pit stop from Egypt became East Brunswick!
Haha good one :D :D. Yeah that is 2500 families after 4 churches have been opened that are within 20 minutes from our church (Edison, Manville, Holmdel and Howell). Our priests said they are working on opening another church just 10 minutes away from our church in South River last December because of a high population of Coptic immigrants there but I haven't heard anything about it opening since then. It seems like after Jersey City was filled to the top, the pit stop from Egypt became East Brunswick!
hmmmm.......Jersey City is still the bit stop for every one....only the rich people who wants to be known go to Brunswick.....no offense to those who are original people of Brunswick church.
Stop offending me Mina.
Rich in spirit? or rich in finances?
Mina,
Rich in spirit? or rich in finances?
you tell me....i am sure you know more....
-A screen covering about 1/6 of the iconostasis.
-A computer touch screen on the altar table (with computer tower inside the altar table)
-A computer screen on the lectern for the readings
-A plan to insert TV screens on the pillars of the church to have the mass fillmed on camera, and be shown on the tv so that those outside can see whats happening in the altar (yes a camera man will be walking around in the altar filming the sacrements)
-Computers inside the altar to broadcast the liturgy to those at home who want to watch online.
Just some odd things that wish my church wouldnt do.