I don't know what brought Mighalo into this? I'm speaking in general. Obviously one hymn doesn't make or break a liturgy. I'm speaking if you have long or short liturgies. You are taking what I've said out of context. It was an example. I'm saying things are not cut and dry so that you can say people are lazy or unwilling to stay for a longer liturgy simply because they lack spiritual depth and maturity. Don't judge the masses since you don't know them or their circumstances. Worry about YOURSELF.
I'm saying things are not cut and dry so that you can say people are lazy or unwilling to stay for a longer liturgy simply because they lack spiritual depth and maturity.
I'm sorry, you lost me. I read it 68 times and still don't understand.
Wait, I think I got it. You're saying we can't call people lazy if they don;t want to attend a lengthy Liturgy, and the reason they don't want to attend a lengthy Liturgy is because they're spiritually immature? So ultimately we shouldn't be assuming people are lazy or assume they don't want to attend a longer Liturgy because of their lack of spiritual maturity?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11241.msg135939#msg135939 date=1302715152] it is true ;D
actually it's not true.......Pope Kerrelos use to pray a liturgy every day early in the morning. His liturgies were always fast....i know that from an old deacon in my church (rabena yakhalleh ya rub) who lived with the pope many years....he tells us many beautiful stories of pope Kerrelos.
Are you saying that there was something wrong what he did for all those years?
Nobody ever agrees with me when I say things.. so welcome to the club :P
No, I'm kidding. You did make a valid point, but your statement is only half true. If churches are skipping hymns and rushing through the Liturgy then there is something wrong--I agree. BUT it doesn't necessarily have to be something spiritually wrong.
We are not Pope Kyrollos or the monks in the desert. There are times when we should follow their example, and times where we should take things at our OWN level. For example, I don't think a lay person should hang a rope from their ceiling, grow a beard, tied it to the rope and stay up all night, every night, with only bread and water to eat. We DO learn from them greaaaatly but since we have not reached their level of spirituality, we should not adapt their lifestyle to ours!
Going back to the rushed Liturgy, if all the Coptic Churches started rushing the Liturgy to finish in 15 minutes, like HH Pope Kyrollos, then I think we are destroying ourselves, and fooling ourselves, rather than spiritually growing.
So in a way, you are right. We should not be rushing the Liturgy and skipping all the hymns, buuuuut we shouldn't assume that the churches that DO skip are spiritually immature. We shouldn't even assume that the spiritually immature people are spiritually immature lol, because that's not Christian. :)
It's always better to give positive excuses, like the one JY mentioned about the poor families, rather than to assume negative things and fall into the sin of judging (which Mina doesn't think is a sin.. :P)
I hope you're all happy. I'm agreeing with everyone. :P
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11241.msg135949#msg135949 date=1302718570] At least we are still smiling .. there is hope we will reach an agreement :D
well.........maybe in 2 weeks after my exam on good friday.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=11241.msg135952#msg135952 date=1302718670] So now that we're all in Kumbaya mood, can we convince Mina that judging is a sin? :P
It ties into this thread, nobody yell at me.
don't waste ur time with this.....nothing will make me change this.....i have spoken to many priests privately about it and confirmed what i say.
[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=11241.msg135830#msg135830 date=1302573050] [quote author=TITL link=topic=11241.msg135829#msg135829 date=1302570200] My church sings it after the sixth hour (or is it the ninth hour?) in between the sermon.
Is this a rite or choice of each church? My church doesn't sing that during our service.
According to a Syriac Maronite priest I know, this hymn Wa Habibi is actually a Maronite hymn which we sort of borrowed, since were close geographically in the region (Lebanon- Egypt).
I'll be talking to myself if I open a thread about this. As you can see, Mina won't even bother explaining his side (maybe cause he's told me 5 million times and I still don't agree/understand his point).
So unless he joins into the discussion, I don't think tasbeha.org would be too happy with a thread dedicated to one person arguing with themselves.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=11241.msg135945#msg135945 date=1302718015] No, I'm kidding. You did make a valid point, but your statement is only half true. If churches are skipping hymns and rushing through the Liturgy then there is something wrong--I agree. BUT it doesn't necessarily have to be something spiritually wrong.
Why does something have to be wrong? I already gave a perfectly good reason why skipping hymns is not wrong. And if you consider skipping hymns and rushing through a liturgy is wrong, then a lot of priests and bishops are guilty of this. Have you ever prayed with Anba Wissa. Do you think all of his liturgies for the past 20 years are wrong, spiritual deprived, or negatively effecting the congregation's spirituality? No. In fact, most people feel his liturgies are very angelic. It's his preference to pray fast.
I don't think there is anything wrong with skipping hymns and praying fast. If it was, then every church who does not pray ALL the hymns of the liturgy (including both aspasmoses, any glorification for the saint, the Psalm and Gospel in Coptic, the long Amen for the confession and so on) every week, is guilty of doing something wrong. HICS recording of the Liturgy of St Basil is 6 hours because they did all the hymns. By show of electronic hands, raise your hand if your church prays ALL the hymns of the liturgy every week (slowly) and it takes at least 4 hours. I've been to many churches, I have not seen one that does consistently, every week.
It's not wrong to skip and pray fast, it's a preference. Maybe it is directly related to time constraints, maybe it has nothing to do with time. And maybe long hymns (or at least the desire to have long services) will become an obstacle to the congregation. Who are we to tell the priest and bishops that they are wrong. George
imikhail was saying if this was a general trend in churches then there is something wrong. You previously gave the example of skipping hymns occasionally, per request of Abouna, but that' not the same as rushing through everything, everytime, to be done on time.
There are exceptions, like Anba Wissa and HH Pope Kyrollos, but what if all the churches started doing this (skipping ALL the hymns and rushing throughout the entire Liturgy). Sometimes, I guess, it can be spiritually uplifting, depending on the priest, but usually it's not.
Personally, if I attend a rushed Liturgy, I feel like I missed something and didn't benefit fully from the service. It's hard to contemplate, pray, and stay focused if the priest is speedily mumbling, the deacons are cutting half the hymns, and all you can really think about is the time.
TITL, I agree that there is a difference between skipping a hymn occasionally and skippin hymns and rushing every time. But in the big picture, if there is a valid, spiritual reason to skip hymns occasionally, then there could be a valid, spiritual reason to skip hymns and rush every time.
I agree there are exceptions. But as I said, all churches skip hymns (and many rush). If not, then every church would have 6 hour liturgies. And that doesn't happen. Liturgies with all hymns sung slowly is the exception, not the other way around. The majority of priests and bishops pray within 2 1/2-3 1/2 hours (max), even in monasteries.
I agree with your last statement. By definition, your statement is a preference. It is just as likelyand acceptable to have the opposite preference: that a longer hymn like Meghalo will make it hard for some people to contemplate, pray and stay focused if there is one person singing this hymn. It's not my preference. But it's not wrong to have this preference either.
But in the big picture, if there is a valid, spiritual reason to skip hymns occasionally, then there could be a valid, spiritual reason to skip hymns and rush every time.
I do not agree. What causes a church to skip hymns and rush through the Liturgy? Baptism, distractions/interruptions, exceptionally long sermons..etc. Why would this happen every weekend? These occasional circumstances aren't regular (or rather, shouldn't be regular) in any church. They are exceptions. I would say there is something wrong if a church has an "exception" everytime they do service.
But as I said, all churches skip hymns (and many rush). If not, then every church would have 6 hour liturgies.
Why are you going either extremely left or extremely right? What's wrong with a 2-2.5 hour Liturgy? I would say that's rather complete, although not all the hymns are sung, but the major famous ones.
But in the big picture, if there is a valid, spiritual reason to skip hymns occasionally, then there could be a valid, spiritual reason to skip hymns and rush every time.
I do not agree. What causes a church to skip hymns and rush through the Liturgy? Baptism, distractions/interruptions, exceptionally long sermons..etc. Why would this happen every weekend? These occasional circumstances aren't regular (or rather, shouldn't be regular) in any church. They are exceptions. I would say there is something wrong if a church has an "exception" everytime they do service.
habibti.....he said "occasionally"....that's important.
I'm saying if you have an excuse for occasional skipping, then you can't say "since we had an excuse once, we're allowed to give excuses for every single church service".
Comments
Wait, I think I got it. You're saying we can't call people lazy if they don;t want to attend a lengthy Liturgy, and the reason they don't want to attend a lengthy Liturgy is because they're spiritually immature? So ultimately we shouldn't be assuming people are lazy or assume they don't want to attend a longer Liturgy because of their lack of spiritual maturity?
That took me a while, but I agree with that. :)
it is true ;D
actually it's not true.......Pope Kerrelos use to pray a liturgy every day early in the morning. His liturgies were always fast....i know that from an old deacon in my church (rabena yakhalleh ya rub) who lived with the pope many years....he tells us many beautiful stories of pope Kerrelos.
Are you saying that there was something wrong what he did for all those years?
You are missing the point. I am saying IF THE GENERAL TREND OF THE CHURCH.
But I actually do agree with Mina and JY. So, "wrong" could have worked either way :P
Nobody ever agrees with me when I say things.. so welcome to the club :P
No, I'm kidding. You did make a valid point, but your statement is only half true. If churches are skipping hymns and rushing through the Liturgy then there is something wrong--I agree. BUT it doesn't necessarily have to be something spiritually wrong.
We are not Pope Kyrollos or the monks in the desert. There are times when we should follow their example, and times where we should take things at our OWN level. For example, I don't think a lay person should hang a rope from their ceiling, grow a beard, tied it to the rope and stay up all night, every night, with only bread and water to eat. We DO learn from them greaaaatly but since we have not reached their level of spirituality, we should not adapt their lifestyle to ours!
Going back to the rushed Liturgy, if all the Coptic Churches started rushing the Liturgy to finish in 15 minutes, like HH Pope Kyrollos, then I think we are destroying ourselves, and fooling ourselves, rather than spiritually growing.
So in a way, you are right. We should not be rushing the Liturgy and skipping all the hymns, buuuuut we shouldn't assume that the churches that DO skip are spiritually immature. We shouldn't even assume that the spiritually immature people are spiritually immature lol, because that's not Christian. :)
It's always better to give positive excuses, like the one JY mentioned about the poor families, rather than to assume negative things and fall into the sin of judging (which Mina doesn't think is a sin.. :P)
I hope you're all happy. I'm agreeing with everyone. :P
minatasgeel,
You are missing the point. I am saying THE GENERAL TREND OF THE CHURCH.
and i still disagree. it is not a general trend at all....
and i am with TITL :-)
IF THE GENERAL TREND IS TO SKIP HYMNS AND RUSH SERVICES, THEN THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG SPIRITUALLY.
Thanks
At least we are still smiling .. there is hope we will reach an agreement :D
well.........maybe in 2 weeks after my exam on good friday.
It ties into this thread, nobody yell at me.
So now that we're all in Kumbaya mood, can we convince Mina that judging is a sin? :P
It ties into this thread, nobody yell at me.
don't waste ur time with this.....nothing will make me change this.....i have spoken to many priests privately about it and confirmed what i say.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=11241.msg135829#msg135829 date=1302570200]
My church sings it after the sixth hour (or is it the ninth hour?) in between the sermon.
Is this a rite or choice of each church? My church doesn't sing that during our service.
According to a Syriac Maronite priest I know, this hymn Wa Habibi is actually a Maronite hymn which we sort of borrowed, since were close geographically in the region (Lebanon- Egypt).
yes.....i know many Maronite church members (i am actually related) that say that. That's why Fairouz records it.
I'm going to use ILSM's homosexuality formula: Judging = Sin.
May be we need to open another thread to discuss judging others.
just ignore her.... :P
I'll be talking to myself if I open a thread about this. As you can see, Mina won't even bother explaining his side (maybe cause he's told me 5 million times and I still don't agree/understand his point).
So unless he joins into the discussion, I don't think tasbeha.org would be too happy with a thread dedicated to one person arguing with themselves.
No, I'm kidding. You did make a valid point, but your statement is only half true. If churches are skipping hymns and rushing through the Liturgy then there is something wrong--I agree. BUT it doesn't necessarily have to be something spiritually wrong.
Why does something have to be wrong? I already gave a perfectly good reason why skipping hymns is not wrong. And if you consider skipping hymns and rushing through a liturgy is wrong, then a lot of priests and bishops are guilty of this. Have you ever prayed with Anba Wissa. Do you think all of his liturgies for the past 20 years are wrong, spiritual deprived, or negatively effecting the congregation's spirituality? No. In fact, most people feel his liturgies are very angelic. It's his preference to pray fast.
I don't think there is anything wrong with skipping hymns and praying fast. If it was, then every church who does not pray ALL the hymns of the liturgy (including both aspasmoses, any glorification for the saint, the Psalm and Gospel in Coptic, the long Amen for the confession and so on) every week, is guilty of doing something wrong. HICS recording of the Liturgy of St Basil is 6 hours because they did all the hymns. By show of electronic hands, raise your hand if your church prays ALL the hymns of the liturgy every week (slowly) and it takes at least 4 hours. I've been to many churches, I have not seen one that does consistently, every week.
It's not wrong to skip and pray fast, it's a preference. Maybe it is directly related to time constraints, maybe it has nothing to do with time. And maybe long hymns (or at least the desire to have long services) will become an obstacle to the congregation. Who are we to tell the priest and bishops that they are wrong.
George
imikhail was saying if this was a general trend in churches then there is something wrong. You previously gave the example of skipping hymns occasionally, per request of Abouna, but that' not the same as rushing through everything, everytime, to be done on time.
There are exceptions, like Anba Wissa and HH Pope Kyrollos, but what if all the churches started doing this (skipping ALL the hymns and rushing throughout the entire Liturgy). Sometimes, I guess, it can be spiritually uplifting, depending on the priest, but usually it's not.
Personally, if I attend a rushed Liturgy, I feel like I missed something and didn't benefit fully from the service. It's hard to contemplate, pray, and stay focused if the priest is speedily mumbling, the deacons are cutting half the hymns, and all you can really think about is the time.
I agree that there is a difference between skipping a hymn occasionally and skippin hymns and rushing every time. But in the big picture, if there is a valid, spiritual reason to skip hymns occasionally, then there could be a valid, spiritual reason to skip hymns and rush every time.
I agree there are exceptions. But as I said, all churches skip hymns (and many rush). If not, then every church would have 6 hour liturgies. And that doesn't happen. Liturgies with all hymns sung slowly is the exception, not the other way around. The majority of priests and bishops pray within 2 1/2-3 1/2 hours (max), even in monasteries.
I agree with your last statement. By definition, your statement is a preference. It is just as likelyand acceptable to have the opposite preference: that a longer hymn like Meghalo will make it hard for some people to contemplate, pray and stay focused if there is one person singing this hymn. It's not my preference. But it's not wrong to have this preference either.
habibti.....he said "occasionally"....that's important.
I'm saying if you have an excuse for occasional skipping, then you can't say "since we had an excuse once, we're allowed to give excuses for every single church service".