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Reading the Bible in Coptic During Passion Week?
Hi,
I would like to know if your Church reads the Bible in Coptic during the Passion Week prayers? Mine do.
No one understands Coptic at all, and the person reading it often makes mistakes in his pronunciation in Coptic also.
What is the point of reading it in Coptic then if someone just reads THE SAME Bible verse AGAIN in Arabic??
Didn't Saint Paul say that if anyone amongst you speaks in a language that NO ONE understands and that there is no translator available, then BE QUIET???
I'm not sure what the COC have in mind when they do this, but they are fooling themselves if they think people can concentrate for 3 to 4 hours non stop like this.
If the words in the Bible meant nothing to me, and i wasn't interested in benefiting, I would not post this. However, because I see that understanding God's word as edifying and as important nourishment for the soul, I care that we are not exhausting the worshiper with needless traditions so that when the Bible reading DOES come in their language of understanding, they are not mentally exhausted to actually listen and benefit from it.
I would like to know if your Church reads the Bible in Coptic during the Passion Week prayers? Mine do.
No one understands Coptic at all, and the person reading it often makes mistakes in his pronunciation in Coptic also.
What is the point of reading it in Coptic then if someone just reads THE SAME Bible verse AGAIN in Arabic??
Didn't Saint Paul say that if anyone amongst you speaks in a language that NO ONE understands and that there is no translator available, then BE QUIET???
I'm not sure what the COC have in mind when they do this, but they are fooling themselves if they think people can concentrate for 3 to 4 hours non stop like this.
If the words in the Bible meant nothing to me, and i wasn't interested in benefiting, I would not post this. However, because I see that understanding God's word as edifying and as important nourishment for the soul, I care that we are not exhausting the worshiper with needless traditions so that when the Bible reading DOES come in their language of understanding, they are not mentally exhausted to actually listen and benefit from it.
Comments
The tradition is to read a phrase in Coptic as the ritual books treat Coptic as the liturgical language of the Church and Arabic, or other languages, as interpretation. So, we pray in Coptic and then interpret in the local language
Of course, it is a shame that those who read the Coptic do not even know how to read it. In that case, I agree with you that it should be skipped. It really make me feel very bad about our heritage when I see people do not know how to read, let alone understand what they are reading, and they just make up stuff.
Regarding competence, I think it would be foolish to expect an arbitrary level of Coptic competence in order to keep the custom of reading Coptic scripture alive in our services. How competent does one have to be in order to read Coptic in Pascha service? It's arbitrary benchmark. We tolerate a lower level competence because we believe people should grow (spiritually and intellectually) and learn and become more competent. The same is true in Arabic. All the services in our church are written in Modern Standard Arabic (MSA). At least twice a day during Pascha, someone reading a scripture passage in Arabic is corrected (usually by Abouna). In Apocalypse night, when Revelation is read, at least 2-3 times per chapter someone is corrected. 95% of Egyptians have less than 50% passing grades on national proficiency tests. Does this mean we should remove MSA Arabic, or change it to colloquial Arabic? No. It means we continue using MSA and correct as needed in the hope that people will become more competent.
Tolerance is a huge issue. But again, tolerance is arbitrary. How short should a service be without exhausting the worshipper? And when services are shortened, people usually are not satisified. Their tolerance decreases. I remember our weekly liturgy used to be over 3.5 hours. We now have it 2.5-3 hours and Abouna is advocated for 1.5 hours citing the reason that most people can't tolerate anything more and are converting to the Protestant Church. I've seen many churches spend 1.5-2 hours praying Matins and the Liturgy of the word and 30 minutes or less for Liturgy of the Faithful because they have conditioned themselves for 30 minutes of service once the Creed is recited. God forbid if I ask to say the Adam Aspasmos (especially on a special occasion). The extra 2 minutes drives people crazy.
The only way to build up tolerance is to discipline the body through spiritual exercises. When people begin to set a plan for spiritual exercises, then they find they want more spiritual food (including longer hymns or attending additional services). So the only right way to buildup tolerance for long services, is to discipline yourself and attend more services. If we begin to shorten services by removing Coptic "extras", we will walk a fine line that too often results in less services.
No one is suggesting to keep services if no one understands. But if you (not you specific, generic plural "you") don't find any spiritual benefit from hearing or reading the Pascha Scripture passages in Coptic, why don't you find a spiritual book to fill that spiritual hunger. Just don't take away that spiritual food (Coptic Pascha services) from those who do benefit from it.
George
I believe that we are mixing more than competence and tolerance.
I think you are denying the element of fanatism.
If they (those who read) do not even understand Coptic, why are they reading it for? Then at least let someone who understands Coptic, read the Bible in Coptic? Surely that would be the most logical thing to do.
We sing a lot of hymns in Greek - don't we? Who in our Church knows greek? Who? Literally no one. And we pronounce it with an Arabic accent anyway.
But fair enough, let's be "tolerant" and keep on doing this fanatical behaviour for the sake of showing others that we respect our Coptic heritage where a part of our heritage was in fact singing in Greek.
I met this Greek woman JUST LAST WEEK. I told her: "Oh! So you are Greek Orthodox! That's lovely. I love Tzaziki... " and then I told her "So, you must really really enjoy the liturgy and hymns because a lot of it is in Greek. ITS ALL FOR YOU!!!"
She said "Ela! (I don't know what that means) - Yes, the hymns are nice, but I don't understand it even when you sing in Greek because your accent / pronounciation is incorrect".
Great! Just lovely! So the ONLY person we are singing Greek for doesn't even understand it. Just grand!!
We're stuttering reading Coptic, we can't pronounce Greek properly, AND NO ONE has ever bothered to say "HEY! Let's just sing/read in the language we understand??"
So, all this is for tradition??
There is a part where doing things out of tradition becomes a sin.
It becomes a sin when we devalue God's commandments in doing our traditions.
What was God's commandment that we are devaluing??? THE BIBLE SAYS PRAY WITH UNDERSTANDING.
So, we are praying without ANY understanding, in a very foolish way, and in doing so, we are in fact devaluing the commandment of : PRAY WITH UNDERSTANDING.
Oh! THe Church I go to, they only had Arabic books. No French / English books so I couldnt have followed it if I tried anyway.
Oh, Remnkemi,
To answer your point: Why don't i use a book to fill in the void where I'm not understanding?? LOL.
So - here's the answer:
a) I WOULD HATE my son to see that we do things hapazardly in Church out of fanatism. Reading in Coptic when no one understands it is FANATICAL. I don't want him to think that this is in anyway correct.
b) WHAT IS THE POINT of someone reading the Bible in Coptic when he knows VERY WELL that everyone will be reading the translation??
What's the point of that??
What's the point of anyone reading anything aloud for in that case? We might as well stay at home and just read our Bibles ourselves. That way, when I read the translation, I can concentrate and I don't have someone reading something that becomes a distraction.
Well, Copts are not Greeks to begin with, so I don't know why the lady you spoke to would be expected to understand it perfectly. This is like a Spanish person complaining that Bolivians speak Spanish incorrectly because they don't sound like what you'd hear in Madrid.
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear.
I asked her if she understood the Greek hymns we sing (like Evlogimenos etc). She said she didnt understand it anyway because of our accents and lack of pronunciation ability in Greek.
I think its pretty obvious that a native American's English can be understood by a British, Canadian, or Australian native person.
What they may NOT understand is an Arab speaking english who has never lived, nor worked in an English speaking country. There's a HUGE difference. The BBC news always get a translator to translate an Arab politician when they speak English when their english is so bad that it is incomprehensible. There's always subtitles.
I know already 2 people that have left the Coptic Orthodox Church because of this.
I personally would like to know WHAT benefit is it to READ the Bible in Coptic?
OK.. we can talk about hymns in Coptic - and they have been discussed because all our hymns were written for the Coptic Language. We can sing in Coptic and learn the meaning of what we've sung afterwards or before singing it.
But the Bible is written in EVERY language. I therefore cannot see any spiritual meaning behind reading it in Coptic by people who do not even understand Coptic, only for the SAME passage to be read again by someone else in either English or Arabic.
What did you gain?
Please try not to be like the fig tree that Christ cursed. If there's a reason behind this action, I would like to know - and by knowing I can answer anyone who has complained of the same issue. But right now, I cannot answer them, and for me personally, I find it infuriating to listen to someone babble in Coptic when there's not ONE single soul that has understood a word he's said.
Coptic is the Church language of prayer. In fact, about 120 years ago the belief was you cannot pray the liturgy other than Coptic otherwise the bread and wine won't be consecrated. Of course this is wrong but shows the attitude toward the Coptic language.
It was not till around the 1950's when the whole liturgy was prayed in Coptic but the blessings of the bread and wine remained in Coptic.
It was not long ago when the epistles and the Gospel were read in Coptic and then interpreted in Arabic. However, we as Copts have not kept up with our language and heritage.
It is sad to see that even the priests cannot read Coptic.
I agree with Zoksasi, if one is not proficient in Coptic should not read it, for how one can pray without knowing what he praying?
I hope this discussion makes us eager to learn our beloved language.
Thanks.
There is an element that is missing here.
Coptic is the Church language of prayer. In fact, about 120 years ago the belief was you cannot pray the liturgy other than Coptic otherwise the bread and wine won't be consecrated. Of course this is wrong but shows the attitude toward the Coptic language.
It was not till around the 1950's when the whole liturgy was prayed in Coptic but the blessings of the bread and wine remained in Coptic.
It was not long ago when the epistles and the Gospel were read in Coptic and then interpreted in Arabic. However, we as Copts have not kept up with our language and heritage.
It is sad to see that even the priests cannot read Coptic.
I agree with Zoksasi, if one is not proficient in Coptic should not read it, for how one can pray without knowing what he praying?
I hope this discussion makes us eager to learn our beloved language.
Thanks.
Thank you for a very wise and constructive response iMikhail.
And in fact, you have found a solution to our problem:
The solution is that if we prayed EVERYTHING in a language that we understood, we would be able to switch then to Coptic and the meaning would be obvious to us. (Obviously after praying it for a long time and knowing it).
Let's face it, we pray THOK TE TI GOM 12 times in every hour, and in EACH hour, we recite the meaning in our minds in our MOTHER tongue. Right? But we can pray it in Coptic simply because we know it off by heart thanks to the fact that the LAST verse has always been sung in Arabic (or English in some cases).
But can this be applied to the Bible?
Can I learn the Bible off by heart in say, English or French, to the point that if a person read it in Coptic, I would know what it means? Just like I do with Thok Te Ti Gom?
I doubt it. If you want to save Coptic as a language, you can - but you must first pray with understanding. The FASTEST way to lose it, and its agitating a LOT of people, is to pray in Coptic without ANY understanding whatsoever. Then they'll not only ensure that Coptic isn't prayed, but they will eventually leave the Church.
If the priest insisted that he prays everything in say English until EVERYONE knew what the hymns meant, he could then switch to coptic knowing VERY WELL that everyone would be able to pray thanks to the fact that they've had already memorized the meaning in their mother tongues.
Unfortunately, with the Bible, I cannot see this happening. Its hard, and if no one gives me an explanation as to why someone reads in Coptic when no one present understands it, then I will leave with the impression that you are a bunch of fanatics who have devalued God's commandments in doing your traditions.
The local language is read in addition to the Coptic, isn't it? If I'm understanding you correctly, I don't see the problem. The Ethiopians have readings in Ge'ez, and the Armenians in the ancient form of their language, and others in their ancient ecclesiastical languages (Syriac, Ancient Greek, etc). I don't see the problem so long as the local language is also used. As for the use of Coptic or the improvement of Coptic (to say nothing of its revival), I agree with Mikhail: The solution is in education. Leaving over such issues is a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
You don't see an issue with someone reading in a language that no one understands?
Fair enough. I could see that. However, if the prayer was 10 mins to 1 hour - I could see your point. But when its more than 3 hours long, and in EVERY hour, the Coptic Bible is prayed, what benefit is it??
Who has gained when the Bible in Coptic has been read???
What have you gained?? Isn't this just fanatism??
I can understand hymns being sung in Coptic, but the Bible - you are meant to understand it. God's word is meant to edify you. Who is it edifying??
Im interested to know Dzheremi
If one is present who is proficient in Coptic and can read it VERY WELL. Then I do not see a problem .. but reality is that probably there are a handful of these persons around the globe.
Thank you!
ps.
So, please tell me what then is the benefit of reading it in Coptic with a Church full of people who do not even know that Evlogimenos is Greek?
However, if the reader doesn't know how to read it, then we do not need it. It is better not to read it than to mutilate our language and handover the wrong tradition.
What matters first is that we pray with understanding, but the appropriate preservation and participation in our own Christian culture is also important in a relative sense.
I am trying to learn the Lord's Prayer in many languages such as Syriac, Armenian, Latin etc, so there is no excuse or reason for someone who is ethnically Coptic for not trying at least to be able to pray the Lord's Prayer in Coptic with understanding.
For others the target might be much higher, for others not even so high.
The benefit is that we keep Coptic as the language of prayer. If someone knows it VERY WELL then we are keeping our heritage and traditions alive.
However, if the reader doesn't know how to read it, then we do not need it. It is better not to read it than to mutilate our language and handover the wrong tradition.
You are keeping it alive ON THE expense of prayer.
But look what Christ has said about tradition:
"You have devalued my commandments by doing your traditions."
Praying in "Coptic" is not a spiritual tradition.
Let's get a few things straight here:
* Priests who have beards ==> This is a spiritual tradition => There is both spiritual and apostolic tradition here.
* Blessing the bread for it to become the Body of Christ ==> This is Spiritual Tradition that we are TAUGHT to hold onto by Saint Paul. The protestants refuse this and have lost something vital.
* But praying in "Coptic" is not a spiritual tradition. It has no roots in the Old Testament, nor does it have any spiritual "power" if I pray the Bible in Coptic, Swahili or English.
The benefit, as you said, is that you "Keep" Coptic ... but I can tell you, its not a language of prayer IF I do not understand what I'm praying in! It becomes a burden , not a treasure.
Why do you not see this?
So, im suffering listening to something I don't understand by someone who doesn't even understand it ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF KEEPING THE LANGUAGE ALIVE?
A language is only alive when its being used. When you think in it. When you trade in it, when your emotions are connected with it.
But this is tradition for the sake of tradition. There is NO spiritual meaning.
I notice in Church that the Bible, when being read in Coptic, is read facing towards the East. When the translation is read, its read facing the west.
Apparently, its like that because facing the East is directed to God. Facing the West is directed to the people.
But who was listening or understanding the Word of God in Coptic? Was it God? This is the kind of tradition that will ensure protestants continue to disrespect our Church, and Coptic Christians end up leaving their Church.
The Bible is for you. Its God's message to us. Why are you reading to God His own letter to you? He knows it! He wrote it!!! DUH!!
lol
I can imagine God saying "Yes, thanks, I know that verse, but I wrote it for Zoxsasi so he can learn to forgive and forget other people's sins - please PLEASE PLEASE give him my message before he leaves the Church for not understanding a word of what is being said".
You don't see an issue with someone reading in a language that no one understands?
No, no. I don't see how this should drive anyone out of the church under the pretext that they are not being nourished by Bible readings in a language they understand if they are in fact present during Bible readings that they understand (in a language they understand, since they don't understand Coptic). I can see your point if the readings are ONLY in Coptic. I can't see the problem if they are in the native/local language, and also in Coptic. Well, I should leave this talk of "benefit" to the people that attend the services. It could be that if I had to sit through 3 hours of readings, I might also start to wonder that myself. This is a somewhat different issue than what I was replying to, though. Again, I thought the issue was in having Coptic when no one understands it (to which I reply, again, the solution is education), not in some people feeling the services are too long because they also include Coptic readings. I think my background prejudices me quite a bit on this particular issue, as I would be inclined to believe that people who shorten the liturgy for this or that reason will beget future complaints about the abbreviated liturgy, and that the reasons for tampering with the liturgy are not to be addressed by people like me. I am just naturally very cautious about such things, as they deal with the heritage of the church, and that is something that I should hope we can all agree has inherent value beyond any one particular ritual aspect, regardless of our personal feelings about it. When I took my first tentative steps into learning Arabic, I remarked in an off-hand manner to an Arab Christian acquaintance of mine that I was thinking about perhaps picking up a Qur'an to try and read, as there could hardly be another book published in Arabic that would be more widely-available and with more English-language commentaries and explanations available for it. I thought it would help me understand a bit of the mechanics of the language, get to the roots of the majority of the vocabulary (as I was being taught MSA, not any of the natural dialects), etc. He very quickly and sternly advised me against that, for both practical and religious reasons. Instead he sent me a link to a website where I could read the Bible in Arabic translation. I was less enthused about this, because when it is the Bible, it is the holy word of God, and I would probably find myself frustrated at not being able to understand the text that should be so familiar to me. He insisted it didn't matter, as added that the familiarity should be a help, and beyond mere familiarity it is always true that we learn more readily when the subject is near to our heart.
I do not see why this should not also hold true for Coptic. Lest I be misunderstood, I am NOT saying that anyone should be forced to learn Coptic. I am saying that there are good reasons to do so, and that those who apply themselves as they would to other things that they do not see as such a burden may be surprised at the advances they can make. All languages live and die not only by their numbers, as they are often helped in one direction or the other by the attitudes of their aspirants. I do not see it as fanaticism. I see it as opportunity. I think hymns are also meant to be understood, no? Anyway, I do not take a utilitarian viewpoint to language in so far as it interacts with religious worship. Similar questions could be and are raised by many who would like to see all faith minimized or done away with everywhere. Who benefits from this practice, who benefits from that practice? Is it too circular to say that those who benefit are those who learn to benefit? I do not for even a second mean to disregard anyone's experiences or convictions, but I do not see this as an insurmountable problem, but that some people seem to think it is and let that attitude inform how they will relate to the liturgy. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I faced similar criticisms when I was RC from Protestants who insisted that any hint of liturgical worship in the RC was nothing but "vain repetition" that surely no Catholic could understand. They refused to listen when I tried to explain the significance of even basic things, such as making the sign of the Cross, kneeling at particular points in the Mass, etc. And I suppose they would have been at least partially right if I had not been able to provide those explanations, in so far as those actions would have been vain repetitions for me, since I would not have understood them.
So again, the solution is education. I got it as a RC, I hope to get it as an Orthodox Christian, I hope we all get whatever it is we need so that we can benefit from the liturgy to the fullest. If that involves using more English/Arabic, I don't see any problem, but that's not my call to make. I would be absolutely scandalized if that meant the elimination of Coptic altogether, though, since it doesn't have to proceed that way. But I guess you either see value in it or you do not. I won't argue that argument again! ;)
My suggestion is more practical. Im all for keeping Coptic as a language. But to keep it, I would recommend learning the entire liturgy and hymns and tasbeha in your mother tongue VERY WELL. When you've learnt it inside out, you can pray in Coptic afterwards.
We do this with hymns.
But with Bible readings???? This is asking too much
Thanks.
Yes, I agree with you about learning the liturgy and the other services. That is what we should all do anyway, regardless of our position on Coptic.
But I do not agree with your comment about the Bible readings. Why exactly is this too much? This is precisely what would fix the problem, as you have already mentioned: Have the people learn the Bible in their own language, and in Coptic. Is this too much?
Thanks.
I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also." (I Cor 14:15)
Now let's analyse this carefully:
a) God wants you to pray with understanding
b) By praying in Coptic for the sake of keeping tradition and NOT understanding it results in an action that goes against point a).
c) Anything that goes against God's word is a sin
d) God Himself clearly said that your traditions are not from God, but they should not be used to DEVALUE "my commandments".
e) You clearly said that reading in Coptic is for keeping the tradition. So - Go to point a) to know what His commandment is about praying with understanding and tradition
I do not see you point about praying. How does reading the gospel in Coptic make us pray without understanding if we reading the Gospel in Arabic, English, and whatever other language?
How can reading the Gospel in Coptic be against God's word and therefore is a sin? Can you please explain?
Thanks.
But we pray with understanding.
I do not see you point about praying. How does reading the gospel in Coptic make us pray without understanding if we reading the Gospel in Arabic, English, and whatever other language?
How can reading the Gospel in Coptic be against God's word and therefore is a sin? Can you please explain?
Thanks.
Because God wants you to read his Gospel WITH understanding. He is talking to you through the Gospel.
You're standing there not understanding a word of it.
Its a sin because you are ONLY doing it out of tradition. Its not SPIRITUAL tradition, its cultural tradition. Its a sin because, by doing it to the point of NOT UNDERSTANDING, you've sinned.
OK.. let me give you an example.
I'm a priest in a Church (let's say). I can read Coptic ONLY because it looks like English and i know the tasbeha very well.. but I don't understand a word of Coptic.
I know, as a priest, that NO ONE in my Church understands Coptic either.
During the passion week, I go and ask them to read the Bible in Coptic, kNOWING VERY WELL that no one understands it, and I do this ONLY for tradition (i.e. for the sake of keeping the language alive), on the expense of people actually understanding anything, this is wrong.
OK. Look. Here's a perfect example
I live in a Country where there are 2 languages spoken: Flemish and French.
The natives there ALL understand French. However, none of them speak arabic.
There are no French or Flemish Bibles in the Church.
The priest then gets the deacons to read the Bible in Coptic, and then in Arabic.
EVERY SINGLE HOUR DURING THE PASCHA.
At the very least, the Coptic Bible reading COULD have been alternated with a French Bible reading, or a Flemish?? The Arabic speaking people got to understand the Bible reading after the Coptic.
The French/Non Arabic speaking people end up just standing there OUT OF TRADITION.
Im INFURIATED mate.
Im totally cheesed off
Which is more important:
a) Reading the Bible in an ancient language so as to keep the language alive
b) The Congregation understanding the Bible readings and being edified by it?
In your opinion???
Please answer this.
A, or B?
------------------
I attended a 3 hour pasha, where there were no bibles in my language (french). The priest just prayed EVERY Bible reading in Coptic and Arabic. There were no books, nor guide books.. nothing.
One deacon had 1 French copy that could have been used to read to everyone the Bible passage in French - I think there were more French speakers than Coptic speakers there!!
I was dying to know what was being said. I couldn't. I didnt get a word of anything.
I am sure the gospel is read in the native language. So I do not see a problem. I do not see anything against God Commandment. In fact in Nehemiah 8, Ezra was reading the Law in Hebrew and the Levites were translating. This is what we practice in the Church. So, long as there is an interpretation there is no problem.
You would make a point if only Coptic was read and no interpretation.
Calm down zoxsasi,
I am sure the gospel is read in the native language. So I do not see a problem. I do not see anything against God Commandment. In fact in Nehemiah 8, Ezra was reading the Law in Hebrew and the Levites were translating. This is what we practice in the Church. So, long as there is an interpretation there is no problem.
You would make a point if only Coptic was read and no interpretation.
Did you read my post?
French was not at all being read. It was only Arabic and Coptic.
Surely the French speaking population in a Belgian Coptic Orthodox Church is FAR GREATER than those who speak Coptic?????!
No?
That's just unbelievably cruel to let us stand for hours there without ANY books and then to go and read the Bible in Coptic.
I think there is a problem with the scenario you just described, there should be accommodation so you can understand be it via a live interpreter, screen, books, .... etc
But this is an exception and not the rule. This probably happens in small churches that just started or the congregation is overwhelmingly fluent in just one language. I am not making excuses .. it is not right.
OK, let me make this really clear for you:
Which is more important:
a) Reading the Bible in an ancient language so as to keep the language alive
b) The Congregation understanding the Bible readings and being edified by it?
In your opinion???
Please answer this.
A, or B?
why would i have to choose if BOTH are done. a little coptic is said and then the full text is said in the local language.
zoksasi,
I think there is a problem with the scenario you just described, there should be accommodation so you can understand be it via a live interpreter, screen, books, .... etc
But this is an exception and not the rule. This probably happens in small churches that just started or the congregation is overwhelmingly fluent in just one language. I am not making excuses .. it is not right.
You think there's a problem??? lol. There's DEFINATELY a problem.
People are asking themselves why the National Front parties are winning in the Elections in most European Countries, and this is why. We have immigrants that don't care about the language of the country they are in.
How can you prefer to read the Bible in Coptic rather than in the language of the host nation you are in so people can understand it????
What is this?
Did you read my post?
French was not at all being read. It was only Arabic and Coptic.
Surely the French speaking population in a Belgian Coptic Orthodox Church is FAR GREATER than those who speak Coptic?????!
No?
That's just unbelievably cruel to let us stand for hours there without ANY books and then to go and read the Bible in Coptic.
Then the problem is not Coptic, per se, the problem seems to be any non-native languages (Arabic is equally foreign to the Belgians).
I agree with you there. They should have books available for Flemish and French-speaking converts. This creates an interesting situation in which, at least for the first generation or two, we have an opposite situation: The national language is the minority language, as far the makeup of the church is concerned. This is where wise leadership is no doubt needed to balance the needs of the new converts with the majority who speak the national language as a second or perhaps third or fourth language. At any rate, Coptic is not to be faulted, as this is a position that every immigrant church faces.