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John 16:7
i was wondering, why did Jesus have to depart in order for the Comforter to come???John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Comments
From my understanding, the Holy Spirit is often referred to as the Parakleton, or Comforter. So it makes sense in this case that Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Yes,Jesus was refering to the Holy Spirit,the Paraclete,the Comforter,the One who comes along side of,the helper.That is why Jesus told them to wait in Jerusalem "until the Holy Spirit come".On the day of Pentecost{after Jesus had ascended to the Father} they recieved the fullment of the promise.
Modalists{Saballianism}try to use this verse to prove that there is only one God who manifests Himself in three different forms.Like a person who puts on a different mask for different masqurade parties they claim God manifests Himself three different ways;sometimes as Father,sometimes Son,sometimes Holy Spirit.So Jesus had to go back to Heaven before He could take the "form" of the Holy Spirit.We believe{correctly}that YHWH is one God in three persons--Father,Son,Holy Spirit;One and yet Three distinct persons.So we know that the Modalists explanation is not true.
Muslims try to claim that this verse refers to Muhammed who is the Paraclete,the comforter,etc. ;the one who would guide us into all truth.This is absolute blasphemy!Absolute rubbish!
I believe the reason Jesus had to go to Heaven before the Comforter could come and dwell in our hearts was because Jesus had to die for our sins and then be raised from the dead.He had to ascend to heaven and perform His priestly funtions on the "mercy seat" i.e. placing His Blood Atonement on the alter of God.I think several scriptures in Hebrews and even the Gospels bear this out{when He told Mary Magdelene not to cling and touch Him for He still had to ascend to Heaven,etc}.Dont get me wrong I believe the Sacrifice of Christ was accomplished on the Cross{"it is finished","it is complete"it is perfectly completed",etc}but I believe Jesus did some type of priestly function in Heaven to completely fullfill His divine mandate and complete the Divine mission,this Divine plan of God concieved before the foundation of the World.Thus when all was done according to Gods will,the Holy Spirit was sent to dwell in the hearts of all the believers in Christ who were now redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ the Risen and Ascended Savior.
Amen jFranklin... the Holy Spirit couldn't come down until the Lord Jesus Christ was crucified and risen (John 7:39). Of course as Orthodox Christians we believe we recieve the Holy Spirit in Baptism but especially thru Chrismation (Chrismation comes from the Greek word "Myron"and "Chrismatis" meaning anointing as the Iings and Porphets in ancient israel were and as we are in Christ ) when the individual is anointed with holy oil (myron).
The Holy Spirit is also promised here John 16:7 and 15:26 to Christians collectively as the Body of Christ- the Church. The Holy Spirit will guide the Church thru out the ages and have the Lord Jesus abide in Her until "...the end of the age (Mat.28:20)" or until His return ( see the end of the Nicene Creed).
So as mentioned earlier..amen!! Yes, the Lord went to the nether world to share the Good news to the souls there as well ( we have icons showing the Lord jesus bursting thru the the gates of hell delivering Adam and Eve and the prophets as well as the righteous from the bondage of satan) but the Holy Spirit came down to all believers individually as well as collectively as One Body, thru One Baptism, in One Faith, under One Lord (Ephesians 4:5). So the Lord went to God the Father and to liberate the captives and sent down the Holy Spirit for its TEMPORAL MISSION since we believe as Orthodox that the Holy spirit proceeds from the Father ALONE. Just needed to clarify this... gosh i am becoming more Orhtodox as time paases...lol... my being Roman Catholic once seems as if it another person.... well, i am born again since i received the Holy Spirit when i was received into the Holy Orthodox Church at my Chrismation ;D. Amen!
Good point! I had forgotten about that...lol... ;)
especially that part that the Holy Spirit would only come after we would have been cleansed, cause after the Reconciliation and Redeeming work we became worthy to become temples for the Holy Spirit rite?
Your input is nicely worded for the most part.
Be it also understood in the Orthodox Concept, that:
Pentecost is a fulfillment of the "New Passover--the New Pascha". It is a celebration of the Coming of the Holy Spirit as a remembrance of the Revelation of the Commandments that were given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The Coming of the Holy Spirit in the form of Cloven Fire Tongues is consistent with the "Burning Bush" where the Divine Ember did not consume but was a fostering of life. The Fire of the Holy Spirit that descended on the Apostles, and Disciples, did not consume them but gave them forth New Life.
The Holy Spirit in His Coming at the request of the Holy Spirit, simply was for the fact that Mission of Our Lord, on earth, until His Second Coming, was over. The Father sent the Holy Spirit as the ever present and effectual Ember in Our Life. He is Our Partner in walking through life. He leads us to the Father, through the Sacramental Life. He is the Master of the Sacraments.
In effect, Christ--Our Lord, called upon the Father, and affirmed to the Father that we were ready to receive the Holy Spirit. This is represented in the final seal on the New Covenant with the more defined and fulfilled Laws. Our Lord relates: 'I have not come to destroy the Law (that of Moses), but to fulfill it.'
The Holy Spirit is a fulfillment of the Old Testament Law, and is a Foundation and Edifice of the New Covenant. It is no coincidence that the Coptic Orthodox Church carries forward the remembrance of the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles at the Third Hour (Terce--Liturgical Hour) at the same precinct time that Moses received the Commandments.
On a practical sense, Our Lord was no longer on earth, because He ascended to the Father. He did not want us to be left alone or feel alone. He wanted us to always feel the Divine Presence in our life.
The context however easily refutes this claim. This is an asburd statement to make. First of all the subject in question is most definitely not inferior to Christ, for we know Him to be the co-equal divine person of the Holy Spirit. This is the very reason it CANNOT be Muhammed, for the subject is of such an exalted divine status (i.e. one who indwells believers, who exists for eternity etc.) that it cannot possibly be Muhammed the man muslims claim to be a mere prophet.
The subject is divine in qualities, hence Christ tells them that another paraclete will come to them, implying that Christ Himself was the first paraclete to come, and another indication that the paraclete is on par with Christ Himself.
You are taking my quote out of context, and the use of the word absurd is insulting especially when carries out such an act.
The comment was specific to the assumption if Muslims used that particular verse in the context of the entire passage of the chronology in the Gospel of St. John.
Keep your comments simple. Watch your language. It is annoying and improper.
The point is sir, that indeed the context refutes the islamic claim, but NOT because that would make Muhammed inferior to Christ, but because it would make Him co-equal to Christ as a divine person.
I hope you understand now, thank you for rephrasing what was already well understood. Please dont attack straw men.
Thanks.
I am well aware of the references that you make, yet in the modern preachings of Islam they refrain from such references specifically for the avoidance of any precedence of Christ over Muhammed.
Since the Gospels of Muhammeds days, are exactly as they stand today, the Muslim is obliged to find Muhammed in the Gospels, and they feel the paraclete prophesied by Christ to come after him, as spoken of in John 14-16 best describes the claim of the relevant quranic verse.
Now again, John 14-16 does not in any way imply that the paraclete is inferior to Christ, nor do Muslims miscontrue it as such. Muslims generally isolate the verse, and simply interpret it as Christ prophesying the coming of another prophet after him - this prophet not being indicated as inferior or superior to Christ.
However, as I have stated before, the context clearly refutes their claim, for the context depicts the paraclete as a divine person - and since no Muslim wouid ever claim Muhammed is divine in nature, in this sense the context refutes them.
Hope all is clear now.
Peace.
I'm actually refering to several passages of Holy Scripture in Hebrews and the Gospel of John.After talking about how the High Priest in the Old Testament was required to sprinkle the blood on the tent of meeting and the holy vessels the writer of Hebrews goes on to say:"Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites,but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.For Christ has entered,not into holy places made with human hands,which are copies of the true things,but into Heaven itself,now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf".Hebrews 923,24. And again in Hebrews9:11-13:"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,then through the greater and more perfect tent{not made with hands,that is,not of this creation}He entered once for all into the holy places,not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of His own Blood,thus securing an eternal redemption".
The Scripture in John reads:"Jesus said to her,'Do not cling to me,for I have not yet ascended to the Father;....{John 20:17}
Since the earthly tabernacle and temple were based on heavenly patterns{down to the last detail}many feel that Jesus the High Priest of a new and better covenant entered the heavenly tabernacle when He ascended to the Father and in some way or form secured and offered His precious Blood on the Heavenly alter,the Holy of Holies.Whether the speech of Hebrews is symbolic in nature or to interpreted more literally is a matter of speculation.
I will try to list a few passages from the early church fathers that tend to side with the more literal interpretation.Ill have to do alittle more research but God willing Ill try to find them and list them for you.
God bless you.
Here is a comment from the Orthodox study Bible that expresses what I was trying to say:"Hebrews moves back to the sacrificial act of the day of atonement.The blood sprinkled here brings the life of the covenantal people into Gods presence:it reconciles God and man.The final reconciliation,the eternal one,is the presentation of Christ's sacrificial Blood{12:24}to God in Heaven"--Commentary on Hebrews 9:23-28.
Jesus Christ our High Priest presented the sacrifice{His own precious Blood}unto God the Father in Heaven,the precious Blood being sprinkled on the "mercy seat",the Holy of Holies,and then sat down at the right hand of God.The Lord Jesus,our King,prophet,redeemer,eternally exercises the office of His priesthood forever making intercession for us.
"to Jesus the Mediator of the new covanant,and to the BLOOD OF SPRINKLING,that speaks better things than that of Abel...Hebrews 12:24.