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Pi-ehmot Ghar
My question is what are the original rites concerning this hymn? I'm not referring to the rite that we hear all the old amos in church say, which is "only if pope is here."
The kholagy that the Dioceses of Los Angeles, Hawaii, and the Southern United States use states (word for word):
"If the Pauline Epistle is read in Coptic, the following introduction is chanted:
Pavlos evok empenchoise....(continuation of the Coptic introduction)"
Then it goes on to say the following:
"After the reading, the following conclusion is chanted:
Piehmot ghar je amen eseshopi
People:
Piehmot ghar... (continuation of the hymn)"
I'm thinking that since it doesn't say something along the lines of "If the Pope, Metropolitan(s), or Bishops(s), is (are) attending, then the following is chanted" like it says for "Ni savev teero" or "Marochasf," then this hymn can be said on two occassions:
1. After the Coptic Pauline Epistle or the Intercessions if the Pope, Metropolitan(s), or Bishops(s), is (are) attending.
2. After the Coptic Pauline Epistle and skip the part about the bishop.
I say "skip the part about the bishop" because in the kholagy, it says "In the presence of a metropolitan(s), bishop(s), the following is said:
Nem peniot.... (continuation of the hymn).
which means that pi-ehmot ghar is said only after the Pauline Epistle in Coptic.
The second source is the common (most likely misinterpreted) one that it is said only in the presence of the pope, metropolitan(s), bishop(s).
The kholagy that the Dioceses of Los Angeles, Hawaii, and the Southern United States use states (word for word):
"If the Pauline Epistle is read in Coptic, the following introduction is chanted:
Pavlos evok empenchoise....(continuation of the Coptic introduction)"
Then it goes on to say the following:
"After the reading, the following conclusion is chanted:
Piehmot ghar je amen eseshopi
People:
Piehmot ghar... (continuation of the hymn)"
I'm thinking that since it doesn't say something along the lines of "If the Pope, Metropolitan(s), or Bishops(s), is (are) attending, then the following is chanted" like it says for "Ni savev teero" or "Marochasf," then this hymn can be said on two occassions:
1. After the Coptic Pauline Epistle or the Intercessions if the Pope, Metropolitan(s), or Bishops(s), is (are) attending.
2. After the Coptic Pauline Epistle and skip the part about the bishop.
I say "skip the part about the bishop" because in the kholagy, it says "In the presence of a metropolitan(s), bishop(s), the following is said:
Nem peniot.... (continuation of the hymn).
which means that pi-ehmot ghar is said only after the Pauline Epistle in Coptic.
The second source is the common (most likely misinterpreted) one that it is said only in the presence of the pope, metropolitan(s), bishop(s).
Comments
Dear kmeka001,
I guess you're mixing up two things. The conclusion for the Coptic reading as Mina explains is behmot ghar namodan.... which is different to the hymn behmot ghar chanted by the congregation.
Oujai
EKhrestos anesty
Dear kmeka001,
I guess you're mixing up two things. The conclusion for the Coptic reading as Mina explains is behmot ghar namodan.... which is different to the hymn behmot ghar chanted by the congregation.
Oujai
actuaily, i am saying that both are one in te same in the old muharaq book. you can see that also when we say ethve ti-anastases or ti-estolee in holy week. but what is being done now is that they are separate.
That's very strange Mina, never heard of that teaching before. Always thought there was a "regular" part the deacon reads, and a hymn for the congregation to sing. Are you sure that's not a new teaching?
Oujai
Ekhrestos anesty
That's very strange Mina, never heard of that teaching before. Always thought there was a "regular" part the deacon reads, and a hymn for the congregation to sing. Are you sure that's not a new teaching?
Oujai
That is what I thought too. That is also what the cathedral says in the liturgies on Nativity and Resurrection. I don't know what he's talking about either.
Ekhrestos anesty
That's very strange Mina, never heard of that teaching before. Always thought there was a "regular" part the deacon reads, and a hymn for the congregation to sing. Are you sure that's not a new teaching?
Oujai
i am looking at the old version of the muharaq book. it's just what it says in the book.
I guess I would take such a fact from the muharraq old book as an older practice, that has been modified. Although I always believe in the older practices and the need to revert to them, but this is a tricky one. However, it makes great sense to me now that I gave it a bit of thought, as maroshasaf is always sung by the deacon, and not the congregation. Interestingly though, what will the rule be on the long behmot ghar?
Oujai
On Palm Sunday there are 4 gospels read. There are 8 responses... one to follow the reading of each gospel and Coptic and one to follow the reading of each gospel in a translated language.
Annually, I believe the following is the order:
1. Coptic Pauline (Pavlos Evok... - piehmot ghar nemoten")
2. Congregation Response: Piehmot ghar
3. English Pauline (Paul the servant of our Lord Jesus Christ appointed to the Gospel of God. A reading from...)
4. Apetjeek Evol
5. Coptic Catholic Epistle (Katholikon... - na ethneo emper...)
6. Translated Catholic Epistle (The Catholic Epistle from...)
7. Response to the Praxis (Shere ne Maria)
8. Coptic Praxis (Praxis ente nenioti... - Pisaji ze ente epchois...)
9. Translated Praxis (The Acts of our fathers the apostles their holy blessings be upon us all amen)
10. Trisagion (Agios)
11. Prayer for the Gospel
12. Psalm
13. Psalm Response (Alleluia)
14. Statheete... Efesmaroot
15. Deacon/Reader: "Stand up with the fear of God, let us listen to the Holy Gospel. A reading from the Gospel according to St. ____ may his blessings be with us amen."
16. Priest: "Penchois owoh penoti owoh pensoteer owoh penouro teeren iycouc piekhristos epshiri emefnoti etonkh pi ouou naf sha eneh
17. Gospel is read in Coptic
18. Priest: "Pi o oo fa pennoti pe sha eneh ente nieneh tiro amen"
19. Cong: "Doxa si kirie"
20. Reader: From the Psalms of our Teacher david the PRophet and King may his blessings be with us amen.
21. Psalm is read (followed by Bishop part if applicable)
22. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord....
23. The Gospel is read.
24. Glory be to God Forever
25. Response to the Gospel
I'm pretty sure that's correct :)
Dear tenoosht,
THe Gospel response is said only once after reading the Coptic, and whatever other language(s), as it follows them all, and that applies to the palm Sunday, so there couldn't be multiples of four responses...
Oujai
Ekhrestos anesty
Dear tenoosht,
THe Gospel response is said only once after reading the Coptic, and whatever other language(s), as it follows them all, and that applies to the palm Sunday, so there couldn't be multiples of four responses...
Oujai
there are coptic responses and arabic responses. the coptic ones are a teaching from cantor fahim and is taken from evlogimenos.
Dear Mina,
I heard about this before, but I don't think it is practised widely, is it? Secondly, that's not the practice for annual Gospel reading either.
Oujai
Ekhrestos anesty
Dear Mina,
I heard about this before, but I don't think it is practised widely, is it? Secondly, that's not the practice for annual Gospel reading either.
Oujai
I went to a church on Palm Sunday and we chanted both the Coptic Gospel responses followed by the Arabic ones after the Gospel in Coptic and Arabic.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11504.msg138742#msg138742 date=1306778032]
Ekhrestos anesty
Dear Mina,
I heard about this before, but I don't think it is practised widely, is it? Secondly, that's not the practice for annual Gospel reading either.
Oujai
I went to a church on Palm Sunday and we chanted both the Coptic Gospel responses followed by the Arabic ones after the Gospel in Coptic and Arabic.
to comment on both posts:
it really depends on the church and if you do say the coptic gospel. in my church, we go as far as saying the psalms in coptic but not the gospel....but that should not stop us from saying the coptic response (which we actually don't).
Fady, i am with you on what you said but i have to say that it's acceptable to do it that way.......also, i can't really compare this to the annual rite. we even repeat the litany again before st John's......that's very far from the annual.
I wasn't talking about rights. I was talking about Gospel responses. What kmeka referred to is still 4 Gospel responses, meaning a response after each reading in however many languages... the practice that makes a little more sense...
Oujai
According to the Deacon Service Book (Southern US Diocese), it's how I outlined it above.
Also, regarding Palm Sunday (lol) it says:
Gospel 1 in Coptic
Coptic Gospel 1 response
Gospel 2 in Coptic
Coptic Gospel 2 response
Gospel 3 in Coptic
Coptic Gospel 3 response
The first psalm is chanted and responded to
Gospel 1 in English/Arabic
English/Arabic Gospel 1 response
Gospel 2 in Coptic
English/Arabic Gospel 2 response
Gospel 3 in Coptic
English/Arabic Gospel 3 response
The Trisagion is Chanted (I've never seen that before :o)
The Litany of the Gospel is prayed
The Second Psalm is chanted followed by the response
Gospel 4 in Coptic
Coptic Gospel 4 Response
Gospel 4 in English/Arabic
English/Arabic Gospel 4 Response
Also, by English/Arabic I mean any translated language (Spanish, French, German, etc.)
In the recording he clearly says "The response of the --- gospel" then says the coptic one an then the arabic. you can put that into text by simply saying "the gospel response of --- gospel" and leave at that.....but NOO!!! they decided to sophisticate it to the point that it doesn't make sense anymore.
it's the same case in the Nativity gospel response where you have "Oseio Afshay" and you have "Robbol-magd dou-'eya waladan."
Dear tenoosht,
I see huge flaws in the teachings of the southern US diocese deacon book. Firstly, every Coptic Gospel should be followed by translation according to church orders, and not saying each separately per se! Secondly, agios is not necessarily the start of the Gospel awshaya, is it? Or do they propose the second agios is annual tune rather than joyous because such would make sense...
Oujai
Ekhrestos anesty
Dear tenoosht,
I see huge flaws in the teachings of the southern US diocese deacon book. Firstly, every Coptic Gospel should be followed by translation according to church orders, and not saying each separately per se! Secondly, agios is not necessarily the start of the Gospel awshaya, is it? Or do they propose the second agios is annual tune rather than joyous because such would make sense...
Oujai
i think they just attach it with the litany of the gospel.