[quote author=+TheGodChrist+ link=topic=11593.msg139586#msg139586 date=1308180291] A list of some specific points as to how the Eastern Orthodox persecuted the Oriental Orthodox throughout history would be helpful. When I say persecuted, I do not mean persecuted under imperial authority or the state, but directly by the Church itself.
Thank you.
I really love the Coptic Church. And I really love history. I also love truth. I want to know the truth.
So I hope you don't take this the wrong way, or react with some sort of misguided zeal at what I'm about to say:
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11593.msg139593#msg139593 date=1308184411] The Church gave sanction and participated in these genocides.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11593.msg139593#msg139593 date=1308184411]A given [Eastern Roman] general also had a dual role as a bishop.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11593.msg139593#msg139593 date=1308184411]Some of the usurper Patriarchs carried out both roles. In other situations they called on the Imperial Army to impose their mandates on the Orientals.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=11593.msg140265#msg140265 date=1309116096] The Chalcedonians, specially in Egypt, killed millions and emptied the land from its inhabitants.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=11593.msg140265#msg140265 date=1309116096] Leo of Rome who appealed to Marcian and Pulcahria to annihilate the Copts
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=11593.msg140335#msg140335 date=1309206548] The atrocities committed by the Arabs are nothing compared to the 190 years of slaughter and mutilation by the Chalcedonian between Chalcedon and the Arab invasion of Egypt, Syria and Palestine. The massacres inistigated by Leo, Anatolios, Maximos of Constantinople and ordered and masterminded by Marcian, Pulcharia, Justin, Justinian, Hercules and the rest of emperors /Chalcedonian saints against the us, Orthodox, are beyond any holocoast you might have heard of, including arabic ones.
Can you back these claims up with primary sources?
hi, nicholas myra and welcome :) i assume i 'saw' you on the other forum and it is great to have u here too. i am sorry i can't provide any links on the subject, but i can recommend the book by father peter as he has read very very widely on this subject, having come from a genuinely non-biased perspective (not born in any orthodox church). he has great experience of discussing this subject with scholars from all perspectives (EO, OO, atheist, protestant, catholic etc etc.) i also think some of the more vocal members of this forum should provide references when commenting on controversial topics. stay cool 8) mabsoota
I will refer you to an introductory source: The Story of the Copts--Iris Habib El-Masry.
I also would not discount it, being from a Coptic, that it had to be biased. You will find the book as a good bibliographical source to proceed with your own investigation. The sources cited are from east and west.
Unfortunately, the facts that I briefly referenced are very real.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11593.msg142540#msg142540 date=1312456606] Unfortunately, the facts that I briefly referenced are very real.
The problem is, nobody has provided any primary sources or any contemporary histories.
If I want to learn about the Diocletianic persecutions, I can go to Eusebius of Caesarea. If I want to know about the persecution of pagans in Alexandria, I can read about it in Socrates Scholasticus. If I want to know about the holocaust I can go to Auschwitz.
Where are the primary sources or contemporary histories (I'll even accept within ~200 years of the event as something to look into) for the claims in this thread? If millions of people were killed, Egypt virtually emptied of its inhabitants, then why doesn't a surviving Alexandrian historian write it down? Or a Byzantine historian? Or a Syrian one?
Does your secondary source above support your claim of bishops being generals in the Eastern Roman army?
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=11593.msg142535#msg142535 date=1312453916] hi, nicholas myra and welcome :) i assume i 'saw' you on the other forum and it is great to have u here too. i am sorry i can't provide any links on the subject, but i can recommend the book by father peter as he has read very very widely on this subject, having come from a genuinely non-biased perspective (not born in any orthodox church). he has great experience of discussing this subject with scholars from all perspectives (EO, OO, atheist, protestant, catholic etc etc.) i also think some of the more vocal members of this forum should provide references when commenting on controversial topics. stay cool 8) mabsoota
I am not sure what you classify as primary and secondary, but the sources are:
The "History of the Patriarchs" by St. Severus of Ashmonin, written in the 10th century, which is the basis for the two most quoted Coptic resources "The Story of the Coptic Church" by Iris EL-Masry and "The History of the Coptic Church" by Fr. Menasah Youhana.
The book by Severus of Ashmonin is based on the coptic manuscripts in Muharaq monastery and St. Macarius monastery. You can visit the monasteries at any time and consult them, among other manuscripts in the Coptic museum in Old Cairo, The Institute of Coptic Studies and other places.
From the unbiased arabic islamic sources, you could consult EL-Makresi and El-Gabarti who detailed the conditions of the Coptic communities in Egypt in the time of Islamic Invasion. They did not have much respect to the Copts, but they described their conditions under the Byzantine rule.
A new book by Dr. Sanaa El-Masry, called "The stories of the entrance into Egypt", is a good contemporary source. While her primary objective is to offer a balanced view on the islamic invasion of Egypt, she did not overlook the atrocities committed by the Byzantine in Egypt.
If I want to learn about the Diocletianic persecutions, I can go to Eusebius of Caesarea. If I want to know about the persecution of pagans in Alexandria, I can read about it in Socrates Scholasticus. If I want to know about the holocaust I can go to Auschwitz.
True. Consult the above and I hope it will satisfy your needs.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=11593.msg142552#msg142552 date=1312476553] The "History of the Patriarchs" by St. Severus of Ashmonin, written in the 10th century, which is the basis for the two most quoted Coptic resources "The Story of the Coptic Church" by Iris EL-Masry and "The History of the Coptic Church" by Fr. Menasah Youhana.
The book by Severus of Ashmonin is based on the coptic manuscripts in Muharaq monastery and St. Macarius monastery. You can visit the monasteries at any time and consult them, among other manuscripts in the Coptic museum in Old Cairo, The Institute of Coptic Studies and other places.
And these manuscripts directly attest to the depopulation of Egypt and the murder of millions, you say?
[quote author=Anathema link=topic=11593.msg139589#msg139589 date=1308183297] I am stupid. This post (along with his username and Leo's picture) made me laugh my head off.
Comments
A list of some specific points as to how the Eastern Orthodox persecuted the Oriental Orthodox throughout history would be helpful. When I say persecuted, I do not mean persecuted under imperial authority or the state, but directly by the Church itself.
Thank you.
I really love the Coptic Church. And I really love history. I also love truth. I want to know the truth.
So I hope you don't take this the wrong way, or react with some sort of misguided zeal at what I'm about to say:
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11593.msg139593#msg139593 date=1308184411]
The Church gave sanction and participated in these genocides.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11593.msg139593#msg139593 date=1308184411]A given [Eastern Roman] general also had a dual role as a bishop.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11593.msg139593#msg139593 date=1308184411]Some of the usurper Patriarchs carried out both roles. In other situations they called on the Imperial Army to impose their mandates on the Orientals.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=11593.msg140265#msg140265 date=1309116096]
The Chalcedonians, specially in Egypt, killed millions and emptied the land from its inhabitants.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=11593.msg140265#msg140265 date=1309116096]
Leo of Rome who appealed to Marcian and Pulcahria to annihilate the Copts
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=11593.msg140335#msg140335 date=1309206548]
The atrocities committed by the Arabs are nothing compared to the 190 years of slaughter and mutilation by the Chalcedonian between Chalcedon and the Arab invasion of Egypt, Syria and Palestine. The massacres inistigated by Leo, Anatolios, Maximos of Constantinople and ordered and masterminded by Marcian, Pulcharia, Justin, Justinian, Hercules and the rest of emperors /Chalcedonian saints against the us, Orthodox, are beyond any holocoast you might have heard of, including arabic ones.
Can you back these claims up with primary sources?
i assume i 'saw' you on the other forum and it is great to have u here too.
i am sorry i can't provide any links on the subject, but i can recommend the book by father peter as he has read very very widely on this subject, having come from a genuinely non-biased perspective (not born in any orthodox church). he has great experience of discussing this subject with scholars from all perspectives (EO, OO, atheist, protestant, catholic etc etc.)
i also think some of the more vocal members of this forum should provide references when commenting on controversial topics.
stay cool
8)
mabsoota
I do not know your level of depth in the matter.
I will refer you to an introductory source: The Story of the Copts--Iris Habib El-Masry.
I also would not discount it, being from a Coptic, that it had to be biased. You will find the book as a good bibliographical source to
proceed with your own investigation. The sources cited are from east and west.
Unfortunately, the facts that I briefly referenced are very real.
Unfortunately, the facts that I briefly referenced are very real.
The problem is, nobody has provided any primary sources or any contemporary histories.
If I want to learn about the Diocletianic persecutions, I can go to Eusebius of Caesarea. If I want to know about the persecution of pagans in Alexandria, I can read about it in Socrates Scholasticus. If I want to know about the holocaust I can go to Auschwitz.
Where are the primary sources or contemporary histories (I'll even accept within ~200 years of the event as something to look into) for the claims in this thread? If millions of people were killed, Egypt virtually emptied of its inhabitants, then why doesn't a surviving Alexandrian historian write it down? Or a Byzantine historian? Or a Syrian one?
Does your secondary source above support your claim of bishops being generals in the Eastern Roman army?
hi, nicholas myra and welcome :)
i assume i 'saw' you on the other forum and it is great to have u here too.
i am sorry i can't provide any links on the subject, but i can recommend the book by father peter as he has read very very widely on this subject, having come from a genuinely non-biased perspective (not born in any orthodox church). he has great experience of discussing this subject with scholars from all perspectives (EO, OO, atheist, protestant, catholic etc etc.)
i also think some of the more vocal members of this forum should provide references when commenting on controversial topics.
stay cool
8)
mabsoota
Hello, and thanks.
I am not sure what you classify as primary and secondary, but the sources are:
The "History of the Patriarchs" by St. Severus of Ashmonin, written in the 10th century, which is the basis for the two most quoted Coptic resources "The Story of the Coptic Church" by Iris EL-Masry and "The History of the Coptic Church" by Fr. Menasah Youhana.
The book by Severus of Ashmonin is based on the coptic manuscripts in Muharaq monastery and St. Macarius monastery. You can visit the monasteries at any time and consult them, among other manuscripts in the Coptic museum in Old Cairo, The Institute of Coptic Studies and other places.
From the unbiased arabic islamic sources, you could consult EL-Makresi and El-Gabarti who detailed the conditions of the Coptic communities in Egypt in the time of Islamic Invasion. They did not have much respect to the Copts, but they described their conditions under the Byzantine rule.
A new book by Dr. Sanaa El-Masry, called "The stories of the entrance into Egypt", is a good contemporary source. While her primary objective is to offer a balanced view on the islamic invasion of Egypt, she did not overlook the atrocities committed by the Byzantine in Egypt. True. Consult the above and I hope it will satisfy your needs.
The "History of the Patriarchs" by St. Severus of Ashmonin, written in the 10th century, which is the basis for the two most quoted Coptic resources "The Story of the Coptic Church" by Iris EL-Masry and "The History of the Coptic Church" by Fr. Menasah Youhana.
The book by Severus of Ashmonin is based on the coptic manuscripts in Muharaq monastery and St. Macarius monastery. You can visit the monasteries at any time and consult them, among other manuscripts in the Coptic museum in Old Cairo, The Institute of Coptic Studies and other places.
And these manuscripts directly attest to the depopulation of Egypt and the murder of millions, you say?
I am stupid.
This post (along with his username and Leo's picture) made me laugh my head off.