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Can sin exist in the presence of God?

HezekielHezekiel
edited June 2011 in Faith Issues
Hello,

I need some clarification on this:

The Bible teaches just as darkness cannot exist in the presence of light, sin cannot exist in the presence of a holy God.

Satan is the essence of sin, the epitome of sin itself. If sin can not exist in the presence of God, How could Satan (in the book of Job) walk multiple times into the councils of heaven?? Thanks

Comments

  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    The question itself is inherently flawed. From another post:

    Sin is a volitional act which involves a 'turning away' from God, it is the creature that turns his back from the Creator and His grace, a flight from Him.

    Without God, nothing is. ("I am who I am") God is still 'present' to the sinner (which is what gives the possibility/opportunity of conversion), since God can be nothing other than 'be present'.

    But, the sinner does not come into the 'presence' of God when in sin: he's fleeing, right? The sinner never seen Him face to face because the sinner is not like God.

  • HezekielHezekiel
    Cephas,

    I neither understood the qoute you posted nor did you explain to me  why you found my question 'inherently flawed'.

    How does the presence of God to the sinner (to give them an opportunity to repent) apply to Satan  who had already been judged by God? Satan was cast out from heaven.Yet, in the book of Job, we read that Satan stands in the presence of God. There is a similar event involving a demon or a devil in 2 Chronicles 18:21 " in the form of a lying spirit. If Satan is pure sin itself, how come he is allowed back into heaven to stand in the presence of God?  If this question is flawed, then  my understanding of the bibilcal teaching that sin cannot exist in the presence of God is wrong.
  • John_S2000John_S2000
    When younger I once thought that God was present only in paradise because Adam and Eve could see Him as He walked in the Garden to meet them but after the fall they were cast outside and this did not happen anymore.

    God is present everywhere all the time right? He is immediately aware of any creature speaking to Him wherever this creature is, even if this creature has willingly cast itself away from God's grace. In the Kingdom of Heaven only those washed and saved by the Blood of the Lamb of God will eternally enjoy His Holy presence and live in His Holy Light.

    If someone has a good Patristic view please post it.

    GBU
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    The question is inherently flawed because it does not view sin in the proper light and and seems to imply that God can somehow not be ever present.

    God is the eternal 'I AM', that is to say, He is the only One who truly IS and is ever present. In other words, there is no place where God is not. God is everywhere, ever present. Sin is not a 'thing' but an act that someone performs. When a person sins, they turn away from God. God never leaves, He is still very much present. But because the sinner has sinned, they have turned away from God, and so it 'seems' as if God is not there. We do not see God because we have sinned and turned away from Him. Here's an analogy: During a sunny day, the sun is ever present. If a person were to put on pitch black glasses, they would no longer see the sun, and yet, the sun is still there. Same idea.

    Satan is not pure sin. That makes no sense. Satan sins (i.e. performs the act of sinning) but is not sin. Again, sin is not a thing in and of itself. It is an act. A turning away from God. A missing the mark. As to how Satan can stand before God, well, why not? Are we not all sinners? Yet we still stand before God when we pray and when we attend the Divine Liturgy and when we go up to partake of His Holy Body and Precious Blood. Right?
  • HezekielHezekiel
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11660.msg139963#msg139963 date=1308560999]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    The question is inherently flawed because it does not view sin in the proper light and and seems to imply that God can somehow not be ever present.

    God is the eternal 'I AM', that is to say, He is the only One who truly IS and is ever present. In other words, there is no place where God is not. God is everywhere, ever present. Sin is not a 'thing' but an act that someone performs. When a person sins, they turn away from God. God never leaves, He is still very much present. But because the sinner has sinned, they have turned away from God, and so it 'seems' as if God is not there. We do not see God because we have sinned and turned away from Him. Here's an analogy: During a sunny day, the sun is ever present. If a person were to put on pitch black glasses, they would no longer see the sun, and yet, the sun is still there. Same idea.


    I am not questioning the ominipresence of God. God fills all with His presence,but he may not be not necessarily everywhere to grant His blessings because God is sometimes separated from us as a result of sin.

    God is Love, but does God love Satan?

    Satan is not pure sin. That makes no sense. Satan sins (i.e. performs the act of sinning) but is not sin. Again, sin is not a thing in and of itself. It is an act.

    I don’t get the point. Consider the following:

    The Bible says God is love.According to your definition, this makes no sense,because love is an act.God loves (ie, performs the act of loving ) but is not love.

    The Bible says that Satan is Evil.This will also make no sense,because Evilness is an act. Satan does evil,but is not Evil.

    I can give you many examples , but this is just futile excercise in semantics.

    Satan  is the epitome of sin, the originator of sin , pure sin itself,the very essence of sin.

    As to how Satan can stand before God, well, why not? Are we not all sinners? Yet we still stand before God when we pray and when we attend the Divine Liturgy and when we go up to partake of His Holy Body and Precious Blood. Right?

    Not right. God has already declared the demise of Satan . Satan does no longer have the opportunity to repent.I do.I am not yet him;though I am evil, I still can imagine something good, Satan can't. I can kiss and prostrate infront of the saving cross of our Lord in utter humilty, Satan Can't. The Lord has allowed me to receive His precious blood and body, Satan does not have that privilegde, for he wont receive forgivness. Hence ,your comparison makes no sense ( to use your fav word)

    There may be simpler ways of answering my question. Perhaps Satan was summoned by God to heaven, because God is sovereign and in control of everything or that Satan's presence before the throne of God is for a limited period and does not have power to taint the purity of heavenly realms, etc etc. At any rate, I do not know the answer.

    Thanks for your comments.
  • imikhailimikhail

    Satan  is the epitome of sin, the originator of sin , pure sin itself,the very essence of sin

    The first part of your original question rests on the premise that Satan is the essence of sin. This is not correct in light of what the Bible teaches.

    The Bible teaches that sin brings forth spiritual death as the soul separates from God. In other words, sin is to separate from God. This cannot be said of Satan as he cannot be the one who brings death. Rather, man brings death upon himself as he separates himself from God.

    Also, Satan himself fell into sin by separating himself from God, yet he was not evil at the time. So to say Satan is the essence of sin is not accurate theologically.

    Yes, I agree that he is could be the originator or the instigator of sin and could personify sin, but in no way could be its essence.


    Back to to your question. Satan was the ruler of this world before Christ's redemption on the cross. He was not yet bound and was left to freely roam the earth and had to give an account of his doings to the Lord.
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