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Asomento in Italian, French, German, Spanish
Hi everyone!
Asomento is a beautiful hymn about the Holy Spirit. We sing this hymn in 4 languages at our church, English, Arabic, Coptic & Greek. I find that really fascinating since it was the Holy Spirit that enabled the apostles to preach the Word of God and each person understood in their own language. I think it would be even more interesting to sing it in even more languages.
So since we as Copts are in so many different countries, I assume this hymn is sung in French, Italian, German, Spanish.. etc.
So can people from other countries please post up the lyrics of this hymn in their language? I am actually specifically after the Italian version at the moment but thought others can benefit from the other languages as well.
If you have a recording of it as well send the link :)
Thanks heaps guys!
God Bless & Please Pray 4 Me
UPDATE:
Here's what I have found so far:
Spanish
Asomento is a beautiful hymn about the Holy Spirit. We sing this hymn in 4 languages at our church, English, Arabic, Coptic & Greek. I find that really fascinating since it was the Holy Spirit that enabled the apostles to preach the Word of God and each person understood in their own language. I think it would be even more interesting to sing it in even more languages.
So since we as Copts are in so many different countries, I assume this hymn is sung in French, Italian, German, Spanish.. etc.
So can people from other countries please post up the lyrics of this hymn in their language? I am actually specifically after the Italian version at the moment but thought others can benefit from the other languages as well.
If you have a recording of it as well send the link :)
Thanks heaps guys!
God Bless & Please Pray 4 Me
UPDATE:
Here's what I have found so far:
Spanish
Italian
1) Alabemos al Señor, porque el del la gloria, fue glorificado.
(Let us praise...)
Chorus:
El ascendió a los cielos, y nos ha enviado el Paraclete. Espíritu de la verdad el Consolador. Amen, Alleluia.
(He ascended....)
2) El hizo los dos en uno, que es el cielo y la tierra.
(He made the two...)
3) Vienen todas las naciones, para adorar a Jesucristo.
(Come all you nations....)
4) Esto es Dios, nuestro Salvador, y el Señor de todos al mundo.
(This is God...)
5) Trinidad en uno y uno en la trinidad, el Padre el Hijo y el Espíritu Santo.
Espíritu de la verdad, el Consolador. Amen, Alleluia.
(Trinity in one....)
Dutch
1) Lodiamo il signore perche con la gloria si glorificò.
(Let us praise...)
Chorus:
Sali nell'alto dei cieli e ci mandò il Paraclito. Lo Spirito della verità il consolatore Amen Alleluia.
(He ascended....)
2) Fece i due in uno, cioè il cielo e la terra.
(He made the two...)
3) Venite o tutti i popoli per inginocchirci a Gesù Cristo.
(Come all you nations....)
4) Questo è Dio nostro salvatore, e Dio di ogni corpo.
(This is God...)
5) Trinità in uno, e uno in trinità, il Padre, il Figlio e lo Spirito Santo.
Lo Spirito della verità il consolatore Amen Alleluia.
(Trinity in one....)
1) Laten wij de Heer prijzen, want Hij is met de glorie verheerlijkt.
(Let us praise...)
Chorus:
Hij is opgevaren ten hemel en zond tot ons de Parakliet, Geest der Waarheid de Trooster, Amen Halleluja.
(He ascended....)
2) Hij heeft de twee tot één gemaakt, dit zijn de hemel en de aarde.
(He made the two...)
3) Komt alle volkeren, om te knielen voor Jezus Christus.
(Come all you nations....)
4) Dit is God onze Verlosser, en de Heer van iedereen.
(This is God...)
5) De Drie zijn Eén, en de Ene is Drie: de Vader en de Zoon, en de Heilige
Geest, de Geest der Waarheid, Amen Halleluja.
(Trinity in one....)
Comments
I think I know which verses they are.
God bless
I don't approve of your reasoning really. Why should we take up languages that we don't understand, or the congregation doesn't just because the apostles uttered in 3000 different languages? Symbolism is not to be confused with impracticalities. Also st. Paul teaches whoever talks in tongues in the church should endeavour to translate or refrain. Unless you are in Italy, Spain, or Germany of course... I would go as far as saying that even Arabic and English are a stretch, and Cantor Ibrahim Ayad was the first one who paved the way for that to happen when he recorded it that way with the chorus
Oujai
God bless
Your argument will set the precedent for a superfluous practice in my opinion. Honestly, the practice is already being practised. The way I see it is that psalm 150 is the only exception, but I'm not happy with people translating be'eish, or kata nikhoros, or even ataibartanos, or omonoganees, but it happens. I guess I need to chill myself out, and not argue too much...
Oujai
Dear billious,
I don't approve of your reasoning really. Why should we take up languages that we don't understand, or the congregation doesn't just because the apostles uttered in 3000 different languages? Symbolism is not to be confused with impracticalities. Also st. Paul teaches whoever talks in tongues in the church should endeavour to translate or refrain. Unless you are in Italy, Spain, or Germany of course... I would go as far as saying that even Arabic and English are a stretch, and Cantor Ibrahim Ayad was the first one who paved the way for that to happen when he recorded it that way with the chorus
Oujai
can you give a reason for saying the Greek and the Coptic of the same verse then?
ya3ny we know that there are many parts in our hymnology that are greek and are coptic.......not specifically defining each other but they can be differnt. why then do we say this in greek and coptic?! (leave any other language out for now)
That would be some reason to meditate. I hold on to the contemplation of another member here, sorry can't remember who, of the hymn sending the message out of speaking in tongues. Our forefathers wrote it this way, so why invent? Of course you know why, because we're Egyptians. We have to do it. It's the same as Ekhrestos anesty and Bekhrestos afdonf. Ekhrestos analemebsis and Bekhrestos afshanaf... at least for the latter two you take the original Greek words and tune, and Copticise it. You see of course how our forefathers here were so loyal to their language. I however don't know the history of asoman.
Oujai
Dear Mina,
That would be some reason to meditate. I hold on to the contemplation of another member here, sorry can't remember who, of the hymn sending the message out of speaking in tongues. Our forefathers wrote it this way, so why invent? Of course you know why, because we're Egyptians. We have to do it. It's the same as Ekhrestos anesty and Bekhrestos afdonf. Ekhrestos analemebsis and Bekhrestos afshanaf... at least for the latter two you take the original Greek words and tune, and Copticise it. You see of course how our forefathers here were so loyal to their language. I however don't know the history of asoman.
Oujai
i refuse to think that this is the reason we have Ekhrestos anisti and pikhrestos aftonf. both are 2 differnt hymns.....with same tune but in differnt languages. the idea of contemplation won't be helping your argument here because if that is so, then saying it MORE AND MORE in other languages would just help with contemplation, specially with languages that people understand--that is without getting into how we should say it in english/arabic for the sake of understanding.
Can you guys also possibly stop discussing / arguing in this thread? It's not answering the OP's question at all and it's getting crazy that every single thread has people expressing their opinions when not asked to.
LOL
I second that!
Show me the languages!! :)
My intuition is that singing the hymns in various languages just because it is the apostles fast is not the best move. It is a slippery slope if you ask me. Why stop at Asomain? Why not do more hymns in multiple languages?
You need to think deeply about these questions and answer ophadece's concerns before making this move in your church. Do not do things so swiftly.
Either way, I wish to respond to Ophadecee. You wrote,
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140366#msg140366 date=1309244221]
Why should we take up languages that we don't understand, or the congregation doesn't just because the apostles uttered in 3000 different languages? Symbolism is not to be confused with impracticalities.
Ophadecee, you can't have it both ways. We can't argue that people should learn Coptic and speak OB pronunciation and then turn around and say "Why should we take up languages that people don't understand?" By that logic, Coptic should be abandoned also and I know you don't believe that.
What we are really talking about is the multi-linguistic culture in the Coptic church. Egypt has been multi-lingual and mult-cultral from the Roman empire on. This long linguistic history by design extends into the Coptic experience in the lands of emigration. Either we get rid of every language that is localized to a specific community or region (and this is impossible because there isn't a community or region on earth that isn't bilingual), or we continue the multi-linguistic culture that defines our liturgical history.
How is it that a month before my presentation on Coptic bilingualism in liturgical texts, we have more forums about languages? I swear I'm not starting them to promote my presentation.
When and where is this presentation, Remnkemi?
Los Angels, July 16 at St Shenouda the Archimandrite Coptic Society's 13th Conference on Coptic Studies at UCLA.
i asked around about your last presentation there and no one got back to me with anything...
I meant contemplation in order to understand just roughly why our forefathers arranged the hymn that way, as I'm not sure of the history. I didn't mean contemplating in the words of the hymn. SOrry, but how Bekhrestos afdonf different to Ekhrestos anesty? THe tune is slightly different to accommodate the longer Coptic words, and that's all... just like otos verse in asoman.
DEAR Remenkimi,
The language of the Coptic orthodox church is Coptic as far as I'm concerned. England, France, America, Canada, Italy, Holland and many other countries are bilingual. You can still go apply for a visa and enter those countries without knowing a single word in the native language. You may still live your life quite normally with the help of other people as long as you are disinterested. But to integrate in those societies and start your career, you do not only need to know how the speak and USE their native languages, but also to develop it all the time...
Oujai
Los Angels, July 16 at St Shenouda the Archimandrite Coptic Society's 13th Conference on Coptic Studies at UCLA.
Awesome! I go to UCLA and will attend (God willing). I'm looking forward to your presentation. I will warn you - part of the 405 freeway with be shut down on the 16th and 17th which will cause MAJOR traffic.
You may still live your life quite normally with the help of other people as long as you are disinterested. But to integrate in those societies and start your career, you do not only need to know how the speak and USE their native languages, but also to develop it all the time...
I guess the days of agreeing with you are over. I disagree with your statement for 2 reasons.
1. One does not need to assimilate a language in order to function in a foreign country unless they want to. There are thousands of Americans and Europeans who run businesses in Japan and China. No one expects them to learn Chinese or Japanese. These people can function perfectly well with only some knowledge in the foreign language.
2. In every city in America (and I'm sure a similar situation happens in the UK), there are neighborhoods where foreigners congregate and form a mini-country within the city. There is a China town in every American ecity where thousands of people function in Chinese with very little or no proficiency in English. In Boston there is a huge Portuguese congregation and very, very few of them speak English. Sociolinguistic studies have showed over and over that language function and use is completely dependent on political and social pressure, not convenience or language difficulty.
And you are comparing two different social environments. Church, or the religious domain, usually has a diglossic element, where one language (whether Hebrew, Greek, Latin or Coptic) is predominately used and non-religious domains, like daily conversation, usually use English, Spanish, Italian or French. There usually is enough social pressure to keep the two domains separate. Just look at Arabic. Modern Standard Arabic is used in newspapers and TV journalism, while Egyptian Arabic is used for daily conversation. You'll be hard pressed to find someone in Egypt speaking Modern Standard Arabic in every day settings. And you'll be insulted if you are a TV journalist delivering the news in colloquial Arabic. The problem we are facing today in the religious domain is that there is less social pressure to keep English/Arabic or Italian, French, Spanish out of liturgical services. 50-100 years ago it was the opposite. Back then, you would find some Church services in Coptic only and less services in Arabic. Today, we find the opposite.
Oujai
Greek has been in our Church for historical and cultural reasons. However, I personally would prefer get rid of the Greek hymns except of the famous ones like kristos anesti.
But would you not then argue that they have become an important part of the Church's tradition? Why should the "famous ones" be treated differently from the seldom chanted ones?
Yes, that's right. We're still in agreement, at least me agreeing with your point of view... hehe... one heart... hope you agree with enthusiasm building argument as well...
DEar imikhail and JG,
I share your emotions. Asoman is a famous one for me, aibartanos PERHAPS, but ton sina, aigennesis, ... etc, the ones introduced in the 19th century ... no
Oujai
A hymn like Agios has been in the Church for eons, but a hymn like Tonsina is new. Now, I am not advocating that the new hymns are wrong dogmatically, I am just saying that the melody and the structure are not authentically Coptic.
Greek bilingualism in Egypt has occurred since the late Egyptian dynasties, all the way through Roman Egypt, Islamic Egypt and 20th century Egypt. You are all fooling yourselves if you think Greek is foreign to Coptic hymns. There are manuscripts with Greek, Coptic and Arabic lectionaries of the Holy Week are found. Hymns like Tentheno, tennav, the Agbeya are all found in Greek manuscripts. There are Greek psalies of many of our saints. All these hymns that people want to remove - Eparthenos, Ton Sina, Tol lithos, Tyn anastasis, E gennesi, enti gennesi, En Iordano, En frenestho, Touc coc, Axion estin, Anixo, Boleen and so have assimilated into our hymn tradition. If you take these out because they're Greek and not Coptic, you need to remove Ke eperto, Meghalo, Gennethlion, Omonogenes, To dipnou, Evshees, Eflogimenos, Mnis theti mo Kurie, Iodas, Praxion etc. I can go on. Also, Marion Robinson, in an article called "Which came first, the music or the words?", has showed us that hymns like Mnis theti musically do not match proper Greek stress. The tunes, therefore, came after the words. If you make a judgment call to keep popular Greek hymns and not the unpopular ones, then you're saying the popular Greek hymns are more valuable or linguistically superior. This is not what your forefathers believed. In fact, they knew Greek was so integral to Egypt that the Monks in the Monastery of Epiphanius in Thebes taught Homer. We also find Greek manuscripts in the Monastery of As-suryian. There also some writers who wrote Coptic texts with Greek letters only.
If you take out non-popular hymns because they are Greek and not Coptic, then you'll have to rewrite all the bilingual hymns like Aripsalin and Kiahk psalies. And don't stop there. You'll have to come up with a new alphabet too. And remove all the Greek-loan words (about 40% of Coptic).
I do not understand why Copts are so anti-Greek, when there was never a time we didn't have or use Greek in Egypt, especially in liturgical texts.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=11736.msg140553#msg140553 date=1309458772]
I do not understand why Copts are so anti-Greek, when there was never a time we didn't have or use Greek in Egypt, especially in liturgical texts.
Because 'everyone' knows that Coptic is the language of the Divine, that Christ spoke Coptic, that the Apostles spoke Coptic, that the first language ever to exist was Coptic, that Coptic is superior, that Coptic is the language the angels praise in, that Coptic rocks and every other language sucks, that God does not understand any other language except Coptic... need I go on? ::)
There are many examples in the Kiahk tasbeha, specifically the Vespers, that contain numerous errors.
We are an Orthodox Church that should strive for authenticity. Agios, Omonojanees, Ke eperto, .. etc are well documented in our manuscripts. Tolithos, Agios Estin, Tonsina are not authentic.
Again, the idea is to be truthful to our heritage and if we need to develop hymns let's not produce them in Greek but Coptic.