The Transfiguration -Luke 9:28-36

Hezekiel

Hello:

I am stuck with this verse in the gospel of St Luke :

"And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:  Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.."

The Mount of Transfiguration has both Elijah and Moses  appearing in the presence of God the Father and God the Son in glory. Moses died and Elias was translated.The righteous believers are going to receive the glorified body in the life to come,that is, after the resurrection.

The verse above seems to imply that Moses and Elias did appear with a glorified body, before Christ rose from the dead. If my understanding is correct,How could this be explained theologically?

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

From the Commentary of St. Luke by St. Cyril of Alexandria

    SERMON LI.

    9:27-36. But I say unto you truly, there are some of those standing here who shall not taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. And there were after these things about eight days, and He took Peter, and John, and James, and went up to the mountain to pray. And while He was praying, the look of His countenance was altered, and His raiment was white, shining like lightning: and behold! two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah: who having appeared in glory, spake of His departure, that He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: but having roused themselves, they both saw His glory, and the two men that stood with Him. And it came to pass, that when they were separating from Him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles, one for Thee: and one for Moses: and one for Elijah: not knowing what he said. While he spake these things, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them; and they feared as they entered the cloud. And there was a voice from the cloud, saying, This is My beloved Son, hear Him. And when there was the voice, Jesus was found alone; and they kept silence, and told no man in those days ought of the things they had seen.

THOSE who are skilful in the combat rejoice when the spectators clap their hands, and are roused to a glorious height of courage by the hope of the chaplets of victory: and so those whoso desire it is to be counted worthy of the divine gifts, and who thirst to be made partakers of the hope prepared for the saints, joyfully undergo combats for piety's sake towards Christ, and lead elect lives, not setting store by a thankless indolence, nor indulging in a mean timidity, but rather manfully resisting every temptation, and setting at nought the violence of persecutions, while they count it gain to suffer in His behalf. For they remember that the blessed Paul thus writes, |227 "The sufferings of this present time are not worthy of the glory that is about to be revealed in us."

Observe, therefore, how perfectly beautiful is the method which our Lord Jesus Christ uses here also for the benefit and edification of the holy Apostles. For He had said unto them, "Whosoever will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross every day, and follow Me. For he that will save his life shall lose it; and he that will lose his life for My sake shall find it." The commandment is indeed both for the salvation and honour of the saints, and the cause of the highest glory, and the means of perfect joy: for the choosing to suffer for the sake of Christ is not a thankless duty, but on the contrary makes us sharers in everlasting life, and the glory that is prepared. But as the disciples had not yet obtained power from on high, it probably occasionally happened, that they also fell into human weaknesses, and when thinking over with themselves any such saying as this, may have asked "how does a man deny himself?" or how having lost himself does he find himself again? And what reward will compensate those who thus suffer? Or of what gifts will they be made partakers? To rescue them therefore from such timid thoughts, and, so to speak, to mould them unto manliness, by begetting in them a desire of the glory about to be bestowed upon them, He says, "I say unto you, there are some of those standing here, who shall not taste of death until they have seen the kingdom of God." Does He mean that the measure of their lives will be so greatly prolonged as even to reach to that time when He will descend from heaven at the. consummation of the world, to bestow upon the saints the kingdom prepared for them? Even this was possible for Him: for He is omnipotent: and there is nothing impossible or difficult to His all-powerful will. But by the kingdom of God He means the sight of the glory in which He will appear at His manifestation to the inhabitants of earth: for He will come in the glory of God the Father, and not in low estate like unto us. How therefore did He make those who had received the promise spectators of a thing so wonderful? He goes up into the mountain taking with Him three chosen disciples: and is transformed to so surpassing and godlike a brightness, that His garments even |228 glittered with rays of fire, and seemed to flash like lightning. And besides, Moses and Elijah stood at Jesus' side, and spake with one another of His departure, which He was about, it says, to accomplish at Jerusalem: by which is meant the mystery of the dispensation in the flesh; and of His precious suffering upon the cross. For it is also true that the law of Moses, and the word of the holy prophets, foreshewed the mystery of Christ: the one by types and shadows, painting it, so to speak, as in a picture; while the rest in manifold ways declared beforehand, both that in due time He would appear in our likeness, and for the salvation and life of us all, consent to suffer death upon the tree. The standing, therefore, of Moses and Elijah before Him, and their talking with one another, was a sort of representation, excellently displaying our Lord Jesus Christ, as having the law and the prophets for His body guard, as being the Lord of the law and the prophets, and as foreshown in them by those things which in mutual agreement they before proclaimed. For the words of the prophets are not at variance with the teachings of the law. And this I imagine was what Moses the most priestly and Elijah the most distinguished of the prophets were talking of with one another.

But the blessed disciples sleep awhile, as Christ continued long in prayer:----for He performed these human duties as belonging to the dispensation:----and afterwards on awaking they became spectators of changes thus splendid and glorious: and the divine Peter, thinking perchance, that the time of the kingdom of God was even now come, proposes dwellings on the mountain, and says that it is fitting there should be three tabernacles, one for Christ, and the others for the other two, Moses and Elijah: "but he knew not," it says, "what he was saying." For it was not the time of the consummation of the world, nor for the saints to take possession of the hope promised to them; for as Paul says, "He will change our humble body into the likeness of His,----that is, Christ's----glorious body." As therefore the dispensation was still at its commencement, and not yet fulfilled, how would it have been fitting for Christ to have abandoned His love to the world, and have departed from His purpose of suffering in its behalf? For He redeemed all under heaven, by both undergoing death |229 in the flesh, and by abolishing it by the resurrection from the dead. Peter therefore knew not what he said 9.

But besides the wonderful and ineffable sight of Christ's glory, something else was done, useful and necessary for the confirmation of their faith in Him: and not for the disciples only, but even for us too. For a voice was given forth from the cloud above, as from God the Father, saying: "This is My beloved Son, hear Him. And when there was the voice," it says, "Jesus was found alone." What then will he who is disputatious and disobedient, and whose heart is incurable, say to these things? Lo! Moses is there, and does the Father command the holy apostles to hear him? Had it been His will that they should follow the commandments of Moses, He would have said, I suppose, Obey Moses; keep the law. But this was not what God the Father here said, but in the presence of Moses and the prophets, He commands them rather to hear Him. And that the truth might not be subverted by any, affirming that the Father rather bade them hear Moses, and not Christ the Saviour of us all, the Evangelist has clearly marked it, saying, "When there was the voice, Jesus was found alone." When therefore God the Father, from the cloud overhead, commanded the holy apostles, saying, "Hear Him," Moses was far away, and Elijah too was no longer nigh; but Christ was there alone. Him therefore He commanded them to obey.

For He also is the end of the law and the prophets: for which reason He cried aloud to the multitudes of the Jews: "If ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed Me also: for he wrote of Me 10." But as they persevered even unto the end in despising the commandment given by most wise Moses, and in rejecting the word of the holy prophets, they have justly been alienated and expelled from those blessings that were |230 promised to their fathers. For "obedience is better than sacrifices, and to hearken than the fat of rams," as the Scripture saith. And thus much then of the Jews: but upon us who have acknowledged the revelation, all these blessings have necessarily been bestowed, by means of and as the gift of the same Christ: by Whom and with Whom, to God the Father be praise and dominion, with the Holy Ghost, for ever and ever. Amen. |231

Source

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

From Master Origen's Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII)

38. The Garments White as the Light.

And not only is He transfigured before such disciples, nor does He only add to the transfiguration the shining of His face as the sun; but further also to those who were led up by Him into the high mountain apart, His garments appear white as the light. Matthew 17:2 But the garments of Jesus are the expressions and letters of the Gospels with which He invested Himself. But I think that even the words in the Apostles which indicate the truths concerning Him are garments of Jesus, which become white to those who go up into the high mountain along with Jesus. But since there are differences also of things white, His garments become white as the brightest and purest of all white things; and that is light. When therefore you see any one not only with a thorough understanding of the theology concerning Jesus, but also making clear every expression of the Gospels, do not hesitate to say that to Him the garments of Jesus have become white as the light. But when the Son of God in His transfiguration is so understood and beheld, that His face is a sun, and His garments white as the light, straightway there will appear to him who beholds Jesus in such form Moses—the law— and Elijah,— in the way of synecdoche, not one prophet only, but all the prophets— holding converse with Jesus; for such is the force of the words "talking with Him;" Matthew 17:3 but, according to Luke, "Moses and Elijah appeared in glory," down to the words, "in Jerusalem." Luke 9:30-31 But if any one sees the glory of Moses, having understood the spiritual law as a discourse in harmony with Jesus, and the wisdom in the prophets which is hidden in a mystery, 1 Corinthians 2:7 he sees Moses and Elijah in glory when he sees them with Jesus.

Source (Emphasis mine)

joeg

From St. John Chrysostom's Commentary on the Gospel of St. Matthew, Homily 56:

2.  “And after six days He taketh with Him Peter and James and John.

Now another says, “after eight,” not contradicting this writer, but most
fully agreeing with him. For the one expressed both the very day on which
He spake, and that on which He led them up; but the other, the days
between them only.

But mark thou, I pray thee, the severe goodness of Matthew, not
concealing those who were preferred to himself. This John also often doth,
recording the peculiar praises of Peter with great sincerity. For the choir of
these holy men was everywhere pure from envy and vainglory.

Having taken therefore the leaders,  “He bringeth them up into a high
mountain apart, and was transfigured before them: and His face did shine
as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light. And there appeared
unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.”

Wherefore doth He take with Him these only? Because these were
superior to the rest. And Peter indeed showed his superiority by
exceedingly loving Him; but John by being exceedingly loved of Him; and
James again by his answer which he answered with his brother, saying,
“We are able to drink the cup; nor yet by his answer only, but also by his
works; both by the rest of them, and by fulfilling, what he said. For so
earnest was he, and grievous to the Jews, that Herod himself supposed
that he had bestowed herein a very great favor on the Jews, I mean in
slaying him.

But wherefore doth He not lead them up straightway? To spare the other
disciples any feeling of human weakness: for which cause He omits also
the names of them that are to go up. And this, because the rest would have
desired exceedingly to have followed, being to see a pattern of that glory;
and would have been pained, as overlooked. For though it was somewhat
in a corporeal way that He made the disclosure, yet nevertheless the thing
had much in it to be desired.

Wherefore then doth He at all foretell it? That they might be readier to
seize the high meaning, by His foretelling it; and being filled with the more vehement desire in that round of days, might so be present with their mind
quite awake and full of care.

3. But wherefore doth He also bring forward Moses and Elias? One might
mention many reasons. And first of all this: because the multitudes said He
was, some Elias, some Jeremias, some one of the old prophets, He brings
the leaders of His choir, that they might see the difference even hereby
between the servants and the Lord; and that Peter was rightly commended
for confessing Him Son of God.

But besides that, one may mention another reason also: that because men
were continually accusing Him of transgressing the law, and accounting
Him to be a blasphemer, as appropriating to Himself a glory which
belonged not to Him, even the Father’s, and were saying,  “This Man is not
of God, because He keepeth not the Sabbath day;” and again,  “For a good
work we stone Thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that Thou, being a
man, makest Thyself God:” that both the charges might be shown to
spring from envy, and He be proved not liable to either; and that neither is
His conduct a transgression of the law, nor His calling Himself equal to the
Father an appropriation of glory not His own; He brings forward them
who had shone out in each of these respects: Moses, because he gave the
law, and the Jews might infer that he would not have overlooked its being
trampled on, as they supposed, nor have shown respect to the
transgressor of it, and the enemy of its founder: Elias too for his part was
jealous for the glory of God, and were any man an adversary of God, and
calling himself God, making himself equal to the Father, while he was not
what he said, and had no right to do so; he was not the person to stand by,
and hearken unto him.

And one may mention another reason also, with those which have been
spoken of. Of what kind then is it? To inform them that He hath power
both of death and life, is ruler both above and beneath. For this cause He
brings forward both him that had died, and him that never yet suffered
this.

But the fifth motive, (for it is a fifth, besides those that have been
mentioned), even the evangelist himself hath revealed. Now what was this?
To show the glory of the cross, and to console Peter and the others in their
dread of the passion, and to raise up their minds. Since having come, they
by no means held their peace, but  “spake,” it is said,  “of the glory which
He was to accomplish at Jerusalem;” that is, of the passion, and the cross;
for so they call it always.

And not thus only did He cheer them, but also by the excellency itself of
the men, being such as He was especially requiring from themselves. I
mean, that having said,  “If any man will come after me, let him take up his
cross, and follow me;” them that had died ten thousand times for God’s
decrees, and the people entrusted to them, these persons He sets before
them. Because each of these, having lost his life, found it. For each of them
both spake boldly unto tyrants, the one to the Egyptian, the other to
Ahab; and in behalf of heartless and disobedient men; and by the very
persons who were saved by them, they were brought into extreme danger;
and each of them wishing to withdraw men from idolatry; and each being
unlearned; for the one was of a  “slow tongue,” and dull of speech, and the
other for his part also somewhat of the rudest in his bearing: and of
voluntary poverty both were very strict observers; for neither had Moses
made any gain, nor had Elias aught more than his sheepskin; and this under
the old law, and when they had not received so great a gift of miracles. For
what if Moses clave a sea? yet Peter walked on the water, and was able to
remove mountains, and used to work cures of all manner of bodily
diseases, and to drive away savage demons, and by the shadow of his body
to work those wonderful and great prodigies; and changed the whole world.
And if Elias too raised a dead man, yet these raised ten thousand; and this
before the spirit was as yet vouchsafed to them. He brings them forward
accordingly for this cause also. For He would have them emulate their
winning ways toward the people, and their presence of mind and
inflexibility; and that they should be meek like Moses, and jealous for God
like Elias, and full of tender care, as they were. For the one endured a
famine of three years for the Jewish people; and the other said,  “If thou
wilt forgive them their sin, forgive; else blot me too out of the book, which
thou hast written.” Now of all this He was reminding them by the vision.

For He brought those in glory too, not that these should stay where they
were, but that they might even surpass their limitary lines. For example,
when they said,  “Should we command fire to come down from heaven,”
and made mention of Elias as having done so, He saith,  “Ye know not what
manner of spirit ye are of;” training them to forbearance by the superiority
in their gift.

And let none suppose us to condemn Elias as imperfect; we say not this;
for indeed he was exceedingly perfect, but in his own times, when the mind
of men was in some degree childish, and they needed this kind of
schooling. Since Moses too was in this respect perfect; nevertheless these
have more required of them than he. For  “except your righteousness shall
exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no ease
enter into the kingdom of Heaven.” For not into Egypt did they enter, but
into the whole world, worse disposed than the Egyptians; neither were
they to speak with Pharaoh, but to fight hand to hand with the devil, the
very prince of wickedness. Yea, and their appointed struggle was, both to
bind him, and to spoil all his goods; and this they did cleaving not the sea,
but an abyss of ungodliness, through the rod of Jesse, — an abyss having
waves far more grievous. See at any rate how many things there were to
put the men in fear; death, poverty, dishonor, their innumerable sufferings;
and at these things they trembled more than the Jews of old at that sea.
But nevertheless against all these things He persuaded them boldly to
venture, and to pass as along dry ground with all security.

To train them therefore for all this, He brought forward those who shone
forth under the old law.

4. What then saith the ardent Peter?  “It is good for us to be here.” For
because he had heard that Christ was to go to Jerusalem and to suffer,
being in fear still and trembling for Him, even after His reproof, he durst
not indeed approach and say the same thing again,  “Be it far from thee;”
but from that fear obscurely intimates the same again in other words. That
is, when he saw a mountain, and so great retirement and solitude, his
thought was, “He hath great security here, even from the place; and not
only from the place, but also from His going away no more unto
Jerusalem.” For he would have Him be there continually: wherefore also
he speaks of  “tabernacles.” For  “if this may be,” saith he,  “we shall not
go up to Jerusalem; and if we go not up, He will not die, for there He said
the scribes would set upon Him.”

But thus indeed he durst not speak; but desiring however to order things
so, he said undoubtingly, “It is good for us to be here,” where Moses also

is present, and Elias; Elias who brought down fire on the mountain, and
Moses who entered into the thick darkness, and talked with God; and no
one will even know where we are.”

Seest thou the ardent lover of Christ? For look not now at this, that the
manner of his exhortation was not well weighed, but see how ardent he
was, how burning his affection to Christ. For in proof that not so much
out of fear for himself he said these things, hear what he saith, when Christ
was declaring beforehand His future death, and the assault upon Him:  “I
will lay down my life for Thy sake. Though I should die with Thee, yet will I
not deny Thee.”

And see how even in the very midst of the actual dangers he counseled
amiss for himself. We know that when so great a multitude encompassed
them, so far from flying, he even drew the sword, and cut off the ear of the
high priest’s servant. To such a degree did he disregard his own interest,
and fear for his Master. Then because he had spoken as affirming a fact, he
checks himself, and thinking, what if he should be again reproved, he saith,
“If Thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles,one for Thee and one for
Moses, and one for Elias.”

What sayest thou, O Peter? didst thou not a little while since distinguish
Him from the servants? Art thou again numbering Him with the servants?
Seest thou how exceedingly imperfect they were before the crucifixion?
For although the Father had revealed it to him, yet he did not always retain
the revelation, but was troubled by his alarm; not this only, which I have
mentioned, but another also, arising from that sight. In fact, the other
evangelists, to declare this, and to indicate that the confusion of his mind,
with which he spake these things, arose from that alarm, said as follows;
mark,  “He wist not what to say, for they were sore afraid;” but Luke after
his saying,  “Let us make three tabernacles,” added,  “not knowing what he
said.” Then to show that he was holden with great fear, both he and the
rest, he saith,  “They were heavy with sleep, and when they were awake they
saw His glory;” meaning by deep sleep here, the deep stupor engendered
in them by that vision. For as eyes are darkened by an excessive splendor,
so at that time also did they feel. For it was not, I suppose, night, but day;
and the exceeding greatness of the light weighed down the infirmity of their
eyes.

5. What then? He Himself speaks nothing, nor Moses, nor Elias, but He
that is greater than all, and more worthy of belief, the Father, uttereth a
voice out of the cloud.

Wherefore out of the cloud? Thus doth God ever appear.  “For a cloud and
darkness are round about Him;” and,  “He sitteth on a light cloud;” and
again, “Who maketh clouds His chariot;” and,  “A cloud received Him out
of their sight;” and,  “As the Son of Man coming in the clouds.”

In order then that they might believe that the voice proceeds from God, it
comes from thence.

And the cloud was bright. For  “while he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud
overshadowed them; and, behold, a voice out of the cloud, which said, This
is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hearye Him.”

For as, when He threatens, He shows a dark cloud; — as on Mount Sinai;
for  “Moses,” it is said,  “entered into the cloud, and into the thick
darkness; and as a vapor, so went up the smoke;” and the prophet said,
when speaking of His threatening,  “Dark water in clouds of the air;” —
so here, because it was His desire not to alarm, but to teach, it is a bright
cloud.

And whereas Peter had said  “Let us make three tabernacles,” He showed
a tabernacle not made with hands. Wherefore in that case it was smoke,
and vapor of a furnace; but in this, light unspeakable and a voice.

Then, to signify that not merely concerning some one of the three was it
spoken, but; concerning Christ only; when the voice was uttered, they
were taken away. For by no means, had it been spoken merely concerning
any one of them, would this man have remained alone, the two being
severed from Him.

Why then did not the cloud likewise receive Christ alone, but all of them
together? If it had received Christ alone, He would have been thought to
have Himself uttered the voice. Wherefore also the evangelist, making sure
this same point, saith, that the voice was from the cloud, that is, from
God.

And what saith the voice?  “This is my beloved Son.” Now if He is
beloved, fear not thou, O Peter. For thou aughtest indeed to know His
power already, and to be fully assured touching His resurrection; but since;
thou knowest not, at least from the voice of the Father take courage. For if
God be mighty, as surely He is mighty, very evidently the Son is so
likewise. Be not afraid then of those fearful things.

But if as yet thou receive it not, consider at least that other fact, that He is
both a Son, and is beloved. For  “This,” it is said,  “is My beloved Son.”
Now if He is beloved, fear not. For no one gives up one whom he loves. Be
not thou therefore confounded; though thou lovest Him beyond measure,
thou lovest Him not as much as He that begat Him.

“In whom I am well pleased.” For not because He begat Him only, doth
He love Him, but because He is also equal to Him in all respects, and of
one mind with Him. So that the charm of love is twofold, or rather even
threefold, because He is the Son, because He is beloved, because in Him He
is well pleased.

But what means,  “In whom I am well pleased?” As though He had said,”
In whom I am refreshed, in whom I take delight;” because He is in all
respects perfectly equal with Himself, and there is but one will in Him and
in the Father, and though He continue a Son, He is in all respects one with
the Father.

“Hear ye Him.” So that although He choose to be crucified, you are not to
oppose Him.

6.  “And when they heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And
when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.”

How was it that, when they heard these words, they were dismayed? And
yet before this also a like voice was uttered at Jordan, and a multitude was
present, and no one felt anything of the kind; and afterwards again, when
also they said,  “It thundered,.... yet neither at that time did they experience
anything like this. How then did they fall down in the mount? Because there
was solitude, and height. and great quietness, and a transfiguration full of
awe, and a pure light, and a cloud stretched out; all which things put them
in great alarm. And the amazement came thick on every side, and they fell
down both in fear at once and in adoration.”

But that the fear abiding so long might not drive out their recollection,
presently He puts an end to their alarm, and is seen Himself alone, and
commands them to tell no man this, until He is risen from the dead.

For “as they came down from the mount, He charged them to tell the vision
to no man, until He were risen from the dead.”

For the greater the things spoken of Him, the harder to be received by the
generality at that time; and the offense also from the cross was the more
increased thereby.

Therefore He bids them hold their peace; and not merely so, but He again
reminds them of the passion, and all but tells them also the cause, for
which indeed He requires them to keep silence. For He did not, you see,
command them never to tell any man, but “until He were risen from the
dead.” And saying nothing of the painful part, He expresses the good
only.

What then? Would they not afterwards be offended? By no means. For the
point required was the time before the crucifixion. Since afterwards they
both had the spirit vouchsafed them, and the voice that proceeded from the
miracles pleading with them, and whatsoever they said was thenceforth
easy to be received, the course of events proclaiming His might more
clearly than a trumpet, and no offense of that sort interrupting what they
were about.

7. Nothing then is more blessed than the apostles, and especially the three,
who even in the cloud were counted worthy to be under the same roof
with the Lord.

But if we will, we also shall behold Christ, not as they then on the mount,
but in far greater brightness. For not thus shall He come hereafter. For
whereas then, to spare His disciples, He discovered so much only of His
brightness as they were able to bear; hereafter He shall come in the very
glory of the Father, not with Moses and Elias only, but with the infinite
host of the angels, with the archangels, with the cherubim, with those
infinite tribes, not having a cloud over His head, but even heaven itself
being folded up.

Hezekiel

Before posting the thread,I read a commentary from St John Chrysostsom (the one that Doc posted), but he does not say much on the nature of the glorious appearances of Moses and Elias. St Cyril's explanation is very similar to St John's.

Let me give an example. The Blessed Virgin Mary is resurrected and is already in the glorified state and lives in the age to come.She is in heaven (not in paradise),the place where all righteous go after the resurrection.That includes Moses and Elijah as well.

In order to receive glorfied body, the soul must unite with the body at the day of judgement, right? Jesus appeared in his glorified body before his apostles  because He is the Lord of Glory and to show us the taste of what await us.

I know that all things are possible with God. Hence,was the appearances of the prophets in that state temporary , non-bodily or miraculous then? I dont understand the bolded qoute from Master Orgines, it is vague.  

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

I think I understand what you're saying. The glorified body that Christ had after His resurrection, and the glorified bodies that we will receive is something that will occur in the last days after the final judgment (as I understand). In the case of Moses and Elijah, I cannot comment on whether it was a physical or non-physical apparition (though, I suspect it would have been more in line with the non-physical apparitions of saints that have occurred in the past, such as the famous one at Zeitun involving the Theotokos).

When it comes to the phrase 'appeared in glory', it is my understanding that Master Origen is viewing this in a more symbolic way. That is to say, because Moses (who represents the Law) and Elijah (who represents the Prophets) appeared with Christ, the Law and the Prophets are fulfilled in Christ and are thus both 'glorified'.

Mozes

[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=11784.msg140882#msg140882 date=1309819870]
Let me give an example. The Blessed Virgin Mary is resurrected and is already in the glorified state and lives in the age to come.She is in heaven (not in paradise),the place where all righteous go after the resurrection.That includes Moses and Elijah as well.


From what I know,the belief that St Mary is in heaven in the glorified body and state is a Catholic dogma (and some Eastern Orthodox like Greek as well).They believe St Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. According to our Coptic Orthodox tradition,St Mary died and did not resurrect. Her body was carried by angels to Heaven and is kept there. Her soul is with Jesus Christ in Paradise.

Remnkemi

[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=11784.msg140882#msg140882 date=1309819870]
Let me give an example. The Blessed Virgin Mary is resurrected and is already in the glorified state and lives in the age to come.She is in heaven (not in paradise),the place where all righteous go after the resurrection.That includes Moses and Elijah as well.

Hold on a moment. According to Metropolitan Bishoy of Damiette, he considers it a heresy to say the Virgin Mary received a glorified body and she is in heaven. There was long discussion on Coptichymns.net a few years back. If St Mary received a glorified body and she is in heaven, Metropolitan Bishoy argues, then she would have bypassed the final judgement. And if she did bypass the final judgement, what will she be doing in the final judgment. The Bible, especially in the book of Hebrews, goes through detail what Christ will be doing with a glorified body at the final resurrection. Saying that St Mary has a glorified body before the final resurrection makes her co-redeemer - which is a big no-no in the Coptic Church.

I didn't mean to throw a monkey wrench in your comparison. But we need to be careful of what we say. I personally think it was a momentary glorified body. Christ summoned Moses and Elijah (one from the dead, and the other from Paradise) and brought them in a physical body. However, like Lazarus who rose from the dead and died again, so too Moses "died" again and Elijah returned to glorious place. But they did not come from heaven or go back to heaven. Their souls were in Paradise and they returned to Paradise. I think this line of thinking coincides with Metropolitan Bishoy's theology.

Mozes

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=11784.msg140887#msg140887 date=1309828924]
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=11784.msg140882#msg140882 date=1309819870]
Let me give an example. The Blessed Virgin Mary is resurrected and is already in the glorified state and lives in the age to come.She is in heaven (not in paradise),the place where all righteous go after the resurrection.That includes Moses and Elijah as well.

Hold on a moment. According to Metropolitan Bishoy of Damiette, he considers it a heresy to say the Virgin Mary received a glorified body and she is in heaven. There was long discussion on Coptichymns.net a few years back. If St Mary received a glorified body and she is in heaven, Metropolitan Bishoy argues, then she would have bypassed the final judgement. And if she did bypass the final judgement, what will she be doing in the final judgment. The Bible, especially in the book of Hebrews, goes through detail what Christ will be doing with a glorified body at the final resurrection. Saying that St Mary has a glorified body before the final resurrection makes her co-redeemer - which is a big no-no in the Coptic Church.

I didn't mean to throw a monkey wrench in your comparison. But we need to be careful of what we say. I personally think it was a momentary glorified body. Christ summoned Moses and Elijah (one from the dead, and the other from Paradise) and brought them in a physical body. However, like Lazarus who rose from the dead and died again, so too Moses "died" again and Elijah returned to glorious place. But they did not come from heaven or go back to heaven. Their souls were in Paradise and they returned to Paradise. I think this line of thinking coincides with Metropolitan Bishoy's theology.


Where is her physical body? Both soul and body can not be in one place.  

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

[quote author=Mozes link=topic=11784.msg140891#msg140891 date=1309830146]
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=11784.msg140887#msg140887 date=1309828924]
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=11784.msg140882#msg140882 date=1309819870]
Let me give an example. The Blessed Virgin Mary is resurrected and is already in the glorified state and lives in the age to come.She is in heaven (not in paradise),the place where all righteous go after the resurrection.That includes Moses and Elijah as well.

Hold on a moment. According to Metropolitan Bishoy of Damiette, he considers it a heresy to say the Virgin Mary received a glorified body and she is in heaven. There was long discussion on Coptichymns.net a few years back. If St Mary received a glorified body and she is in heaven, Metropolitan Bishoy argues, then she would have bypassed the final judgement. And if she did bypass the final judgement, what will she be doing in the final judgment. The Bible, especially in the book of Hebrews, goes through detail what Christ will be doing with a glorified body at the final resurrection. Saying that St Mary has a glorified body before the final resurrection makes her co-redeemer - which is a big no-no in the Coptic Church.

I didn't mean to throw a monkey wrench in your comparison. But we need to be careful of what we say. I personally think it was a momentary glorified body. Christ summoned Moses and Elijah (one from the dead, and the other from Paradise) and brought them in a physical body. However, like Lazarus who rose from the dead and died again, so too Moses "died" again and Elijah returned to glorious place. But they did not come from heaven or go back to heaven. Their souls were in Paradise and they returned to Paradise. I think this line of thinking coincides with Metropolitan Bishoy's theology.


Where is her physical body? Both soul and body can not be in one place.  


From the Coptic Synaxarium: The 16th day of the blessed month of Misra

On this day, was the assumption of the body of our pure Lady St. Mary, the Mother of God. While she was keeping vigil, praying in the Holy Sepulchre, and waiting for the happy minute of her liberation from the bonds of the flesh, the Holy Spirit informed her of her forthcoming departure from this vain world. When the time drew near, the disciples and the virgins of the Mt. of Olives (Zeiton) came and the Lady was lying on her bed. Our Lord, surrounded by thousands and thousands of angels, came to Her. He consoled her, and announced her with the everlasting joy which was prepared for Her. She was happy, and she stretched out her hands, blessed the Disciples, and the Virgins. Then, she delivered up her pure soul in the hand of her Son and God, Jesus Christ, Who ascended her to the higher habitations. As of the pure body, they shrouded it and carried it to Gethsemane.

    On their way, some of the Jews blocked the way in the face of the disciples to prevent the burial. One of them seized the coffin. His hands were separated from his body, and remained hanging until he believed and repented for his mischievous deed. With the prayers of the holy disciples, his hands were reattached to his body as they had been before.

    St. Thomas was absent at the time of St. Mary's departure, but he came after the burial. On his way back to Jerusalem, St. Thomas saw angels carrying St. Mary's pure body and ascending with it to heaven, and one of the angels said to him, "Hurry and kiss the pure body of St. Mary." When he arrived to the disciples, they informed him about St. Mary's departure. He told them, "I will not believe, unless I see her body, as you all know how I did doubt the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ before." They took him to the tomb, to uncover the body but they did not find it, and they were perplexed and amazed. St. Thomas told them how he saw the pure body ascending to heaven, carried by angels.

    The Holy Spirit then told them, "The Lord did not Will to leave Her Holy body on earth." The Lord had promised his pure apostles that they would see her in flesh another time. They were waiting for the fulfillment of this truthful promise, until the sixteenth day of the month of Misra, when the promise of seeing her was fulfilled. They saw her sitting on the right hand of her Son and her Lord, surrounded by the angelic Host, as David prophesied and said, "At your right hand stands the queen." (Psalm 45:9) St. Mary's life on earth was sixty years. She spent twelve years of them in the temple, thirty years in the house of the righteous St. Joseph, and fourteen years in the care of St. John the Evangelist, as the Lord commanded her saying, "Woman behold your Son," and to St. John, "Behold your Mother."

May Her intercession be with us. Amen.

Remnkemi

Cephas,

From what I remember about the discussion, the Synod changed the entry into the Synaxarium. And I don't think the Synaxarium is historically and theologically infallible, as we have seen in many cases. 

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

Remnkemi,

Thanks for letting me know. I agree that the Synaxarium is not historically and/or theologically infallible. However, it does present theologoumenon. Looking at the entry, I do not believe it actually claims that St. Mary received a glorified body (which will only occur after the final Judgment as per Hebrews). I don't see a problem with the body of the Theotokos being taken up to Paradise. Both Enoch and Elijah have not died yet and one theologoumenon is that they are both currently in Paradise until the appointed time when they will appear again to preach (cf. Revelation). Is it so inconceivable that Christ would not want the pure body of His blessed Mother to remain on Earth?

PS. Would you happen to know if there is an updated entry for the 16th of Misra?

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

I was just reading the Apocryphal Works on the Assumption of Mary. What are your thoughts on this work which, I believe, is dated circa 400 AD?

peterfarrington

An important recent work to study on this topic is ...

Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary's Dormition and Assumption

Shoemaker, Stephen J., Assistant Professor of Religious Studies, University of Oregon

Print publication date: 2003
Print ISBN-13: 978-0-19-925075-2

imikhail

The Transfiguration was a glimpse of the glory in heaven. Moses and Elijah appearing in glory do not contradict what will happen on Judgment day just as what took place after Jesus' resurrection.

"and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many" Matthew 27:52-53.

Amoussa01

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=11784.msg140887#msg140887 date=1309828924]
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=11784.msg140882#msg140882 date=1309819870]
Let me give an example. The Blessed Virgin Mary is resurrected and is already in the glorified state and lives in the age to come.She is in heaven (not in paradise),the place where all righteous go after the resurrection.That includes Moses and Elijah as well.

Hold on a moment. According to Metropolitan Bishoy of Damiette, he considers it a heresy to say the Virgin Mary received a glorified body and she is in heaven. There was long discussion on Coptichymns.net a few years back. If St Mary received a glorified body and she is in heaven, Metropolitan Bishoy argues, then she would have bypassed the final judgement. And if she did bypass the final judgement, what will she be doing in the final judgment. The Bible, especially in the book of Hebrews, goes through detail what Christ will be doing with a glorified body at the final resurrection. Saying that St Mary has a glorified body before the final resurrection makes her co-redeemer - which is a big no-no in the Coptic Church.

I didn't mean to throw a monkey wrench in your comparison. But we need to be careful of what we say. I personally think it was a momentary glorified body. Christ summoned Moses and Elijah (one from the dead, and the other from Paradise) and brought them in a physical body. However, like Lazarus who rose from the dead and died again, so too Moses "died" again and Elijah returned to glorious place. But they did not come from heaven or go back to heaven. Their souls were in Paradise and they returned to Paradise. I think this line of thinking coincides with Metropolitan Bishoy's theology.


I am a little confused. I do not see your train of logic on why she would be considered co-redeemer. If she bypasses the judgement, why would that imply that she is co-redeemer? Does she have to be doing something during the judgement? Just curious.

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

The blessed Theotokos must also be judged, just as all men will stand before the throne of Christ to be judged. I believe the implication of St. Mary's body being taken up to heaven and being reunited with her soul would imply that she has somehow bypassed the final judgment. If she bypasses the final judgment, that makes her on par with her Son, who, while being human, is also Divine and the artificer of our salvation.

Amoussa01

It seems there is a fine line between passing through judgement (or being allowed to pass) and being the judge. I do not think the two equate though.

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

Why should St. Mary get a pass though? The Church's teaching is quite clear that all men will stand before Christ to face the final judgment, with no exceptions. Further, it is only after the final judgment that we will be 'transformed' and obtain our glorified bodies. If someone bypasses judgment, that means they were not in need of redemption in the first place. If they were not in need of redemption in the first place, they must have had a role in redeeming. If St. Mary is not in need of redemption, then she has a hand in our redemption, making her a co-redeemer with Christ. Does that make sense?

Amoussa01

Understood. This brings me to ask if St. Mary was sinless (excluding "original sin") according to the church. If she was, then why is it necessary for her to go through judgement? References would be nice!

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

St. Mary, according to tradition, was sinless. However, it is not just from sin that we are redeemed. The consequence of Adam's sin is that we have become corruptible, that is our nature was corrupted and we are prone to sin and death. Thus, even St. Mary needed to be redeemed as she also possessed this fallen nature. The best reference would be to read St. Athanasius' On the Incarnation.

PS. This is important: the Church does not teach Original Sin. It is a foreign concept. 'Ancestral Sin' is a better term.

Hezekiel

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=11784.msg140887#msg140887 date=1309828924]
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=11784.msg140882#msg140882 date=1309819870]
Let me give an example. The Blessed Virgin Mary is resurrected and is already in the glorified state and lives in the age to come.She is in heaven (not in paradise),the place where all righteous go after the resurrection.That includes Moses and Elijah as well.

Hold on a moment. According to Metropolitan Bishoy of Damiette, he considers it a heresy to say the Virgin Mary received a glorified body and she is in heaven. There was long discussion on Coptichymns.net a few years back. If St Mary received a glorified body and she is in heaven, Metropolitan Bishoy argues, then she would have bypassed the final judgement. And if she did bypass the final judgement, what will she be doing in the final judgment. The Bible, especially in the book of Hebrews, goes through detail what Christ will be doing with a glorified body at the final resurrection. Saying that St Mary has a glorified body before the final resurrection makes her co-redeemer - which is a big no-no in the Coptic Church.

I didn't mean to throw a monkey wrench in your comparison. But we need to be careful of what we say. I personally think it was a momentary glorified body. Christ summoned Moses and Elijah (one from the dead, and the other from Paradise) and brought them in a physical body. However, like Lazarus who rose from the dead and died again, so too Moses "died" again and Elijah returned to glorious place. But they did not come from heaven or go back to heaven. Their souls were in Paradise and they returned to Paradise. I think this line of thinking coincides with Metropolitan Bishoy's theology.


I have not read what HG Bishop Bishoy said on this subject,but it is the revision of the handed down Tradition that leads to heresy. To change the text of the Synaxarium suggests that the received Tradition  was wrong. As Fr Peter always reminds us,the teachings of the Fathers are our best guide. The tradition of the Blessed Virgin Mary bodily death and assumption into the heavenly glory is rooted in the Coptic tradition(Armenian and Tewahdo Orthodx follow the same Traditions as well,not sure about Syrian).  St Pope Theodosius ,the contemporary of St Severus whose commemoration day is co-incidentaly TODAY wrote a homily on the dormition and assumption of the Blessed Virgin and can be read here :THE ASSUMPTION OF THE VIRGIN ACCORDING TO SAINT THEODOSIUS

I suggest that we all read it in its entirety and you will see that the Traditional Coptic hymns for the Blessed Virgin Mary are reflected in the homily.

Amoussa01

I have read On The Incarnation. I just don't understand why someone would have to be judged based on "ancestral sin." We are not accountable for their mistakes. Christ already had renewed us and glorified our nature through His incarnation and Resurrection. Bear with me; I am just trying to understand fully.

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=11784.msg140941#msg140941 date=1309888655]
I have read On The Incarnation. I just don't understand why someone would have to be judged based on "ancestral sin." We are not accountable for their mistakes. Christ already had renewed us and glorified our nature through His incarnation and Resurrection. Bear with me; I am just trying to understand fully.


No worries. I'm probably just doing a bad job of explaining it. When it comes to Ancestral Sin, we don't inherit the guilt of the sin of Adam and Eve (which is more the Augustinian teaching), we inherit the consequence of Adam and Eve's sin. What St. Athanasius teaches is that man was created mortal but incorruptible; mortal because man was created from nothing and, if left without grace, would return to nothing, and incorruptible because he was placed in Paradise in the presence of God and endowed with God's grace. When man disobeyed, he lost God's grace and thus his nature changed from incorruptible to corruptible. What corruptible means is that man was now prone to sin and death, which is not what God had intended for man. That is why Christ came, not only to save us from sin, but to save us from death and not just restore our nature to its pre-fall state, but elevate it further so that we could become like God (as St. Athanasius says, 'God became man so that man might become God').

Amoussa01

Cephas,

I already agree with everything you wrote. Perhaps my questions are not very clear but I will try to rephrase what I am saying. Christ Himself already sufficed the renewing of our nature by His incarnation and resurrection. Why must one (who is sinless) go through the final judgement if Christ already restored the human nature (in the case of St. Mary)? In other words, what is she being judged for? Did not Christ already restore this nature? You seem to be implying that the final judgment is where the commencement of our restored nature takes place. Forgive me for not being more clear.

Hezekiel

[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11784.msg140900#msg140900 date=1309837438]
+ Irini nem ehmot,

Remnkemi,

Thanks for letting me know. I agree that the Synaxarium is not historically and/or theologically infallible. However, it does present theologoumenon. Looking at the entry, I do not believe it actually claims that St. Mary received a glorified body (which will only occur after the final Judgment as per Hebrews). I don't see a problem with the body of the Theotokos being taken up to Paradise. Both Enoch and Elijah have not died yet and one theologoumenon is that they are both currently in Paradise until the appointed time when they will appear again to preach (cf. Revelation). Is it so inconceivable that Christ would not want the pure body of His blessed Mother to remain on Earth?

PS. Would you happen to know if there is an updated entry for the 16th of Misra?


Cephas,

Reading Revelation 11:3-12:

3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a] 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them


The two witnesses are said to be Enoch and Elijah who have not yet died.Revelation says,the two will eventually die and will receive a bodily resurrection and ascend up to heaven. This is going to happen before the second coming of Christ and the final judgement.If the Lord allows this for the two prophets, why not for his Mother who carried him in her womb for 9 months?? What is so odd about it?

imikhail

I agree with Cephas.

The Judgment day is the true realization of the redemption Jesus delivered on the Cross. Paradise is where the saints are waiting for the happy eternity. Yet, they are only waiting with their spirits. Redemption is for both the flesh and the spirit since both form the human nature.

We are not without guilt before the Lord since corruption prevailed over our nature. On Judgment day, the spirits of the deceased will unite with the flesh and God will look upon each of us seeing not our corruption but our restored nature through His Son's redemption (assuming of course that we have lived a righteous life).

It is not through our virtue that we enter the Kingdom but through His Grace. This Grace will be fulfilled on Judgment day.

The scripture is clear that every soul will be judged refuting the claim of the Latin Church regarding St Mary's "escape" from Judgment

.
In the Gospel of Matthew, our Lord explains the Judgment day beginning with verse 31:

""When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: "

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works Matthew 16:27

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Revelation 20:13

"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. Revelation 22:12

Amoussa01

Please understand that I am not here to refute the Church's teaching. I am only trying to gain better insight. Thank you for your response!

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11784.msg140945#msg140945 date=1309890286]
The Judgment day is the true realization of the redemption Jesus delivered on the Cross. Paradise is where the saints are waiting for the happy eternity. Yet, they are only waiting with their spirits. Redemption is for both the flesh and the spirit since both form the human nature.



I like how this is worded and I agree with it. The final judgment will be an assessment of our works, as the Gospel of Matthew points out. That is why all will be judged, including the holy Theotokos. We all have to give an account of our actions (whether for good or ill) and then, after this, will the 'true realization of our redemption' be fulfilled. Final judgment can be thought of as a final accounting of our actions. That is why it is necessary.

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=11784.msg140944#msg140944 date=1309889823]
If the Lord allows this for the two prophets, why not for his Mother who carried him in her womb for 9 months?? What is so odd about it?


I agree with your questions, and that is what I'm wondering myself.

Amoussa01

[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11784.msg140947#msg140947 date=1309890797]
+ Irini nem ehmot,

[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11784.msg140945#msg140945 date=1309890286]
The Judgment day is the true realization of the redemption Jesus delivered on the Cross. Paradise is where the saints are waiting for the happy eternity. Yet, they are only waiting with their spirits. Redemption is for both the flesh and the spirit since both form the human nature.



I like how this is worded and I agree with it. The final judgment will be an assessment of our works, as the Gospel of Matthew points out. That is why all will be judged, including the holy Theotokos. We all have to give an account of our actions (whether for good or ill) and then, after this, will the 'true realization of our redemption' be fulfilled. Final judgment can be thought of as a final accounting of our actions. That is why it is necessary.


I just have one small comment. Since St. Mary's body ascended, it is technically both her flesh and spirit that are united, so wouldn't that be a special case?