[quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11815.msg141091#msg141091 date=1310162501] For the hitenis, Can we say the verse for St. Peter and St.Paul throughout the fast or is this verse specifically for the Feast.?
I don't see why you couldn't say it throughout the fast or even anytime during the year.
[quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11815.msg141091#msg141091 date=1310162501] For the hitenis, Can we say the verse for St. Peter and St.Paul throughout the fast or is this verse specifically for the Feast.?
[quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11815.msg141098#msg141098 date=1310167223] [quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11815.msg141091#msg141091 date=1310162501] For the hitenis, Can we say the verse for St. Peter and St.Paul throughout the fast or is this verse specifically for the Feast.?
Usually, it's reserved for the feast.
Granted, but isn't it OK to say any 'hiten' in addition to the standard ones?
Just because one finds it in the section for the feast does not mean that you cannot use it at any time.
There is a Doxology specific to the Two Apostles. It is labeled: 'to be used in the fast or at any time'. Also in other Books of Psalmody it is labeled as just: "For the Two Apostles: Peter and Paul".
Just because one finds it in the section for the feast does not mean that you cannot use it at any time.
There is a Doxology specific to the Two Apostles. It is labeled: 'to be used in the fast or at any time'. Also in other Books of Psalmody it is labeled as just: "For the Two Apostles: Peter and Paul".
I agree with you but does that mean we say the hetini's for Sts. Joseph, Nicodemus, and Mary Magdelene in any time as well? Or what about Sts. Joseph and Salome?
The hetinni of the feast of the apostles is reserved for the feast....the ONLY exception i can think of (and this is my opinion) is if the patron saints (not one of them but both saints) of the specific church is so where you'd be saying that hetinni all the time. same with the doxologies.
ilsm, you are right, the second doxology for the apostles is there and i do have it translated and we say it every once in a while......but that is just a SECOND doxology for the apostles to be said anytime......same as the second doxology of saint mark that not much know about.
I don't understand, Mina, why we limit certain 'hitens' for specific occasions. . .what is wrong with asking for the prayers of Sts. Peter & Paul on a day other than the apostles feast? It seems arbitrary. Please elaborate.
I can see that Unworthy1 has a point. Cantor Ibrahim and the Cathedral Chorus add many saints in the intercessions whose commemoration days don't fall on the Feasts of Nativity and Resurrection. The argument of "Well, it's the feast; it should be more saints" won't be credible because I've seen Anton and the Cathedral Chorus say the same intercessions on a regular day.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141119#msg141119 date=1310193112] I don't understand, Mina, why we limit certain 'hitens' for specific occasions. . .what is wrong with asking for the prayers of Sts. Peter & Paul on a day other than the apostles feast? It seems arbitrary. Please elaborate.
it always seems arbitrary........anything we say today.....but when you turn anything into a "usual" it's meaning is lost.....the eagerness we get to say it change drastically since we now can say it whenever we want.....
[quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11815.msg141121#msg141121 date=1310195265] I can see that Unworthy1 has a point. Cantor Ibrahim and the Cathedral Chorus add many saints in the intercessions whose commemoration days don't fall on the Feasts of Nativity and Resurrection. The argument of "Well, it's the feast; it should be more saints" won't be credible because I've seen Anton and the Cathedral Chorus say the same intercessions on a regular day.
m. Ibarahim put together combined hitens to include much of the saints, the martyrs(male and female), defenders of the faith...etc. if you ahve heard any other than these, please lead me to a recording. now, they are general ones of saints that don't have to be limited to the saint of the day. in nativity, we always say the hetinni for Saint Athanasius the Apostolic....why?! simply because of his writing "on the incarnation." i believe, I BELIEVE, that this hetinni for the feast of the apostles (and general hetinns of specific feasts) is(are) different. that's why when i said it's ok to say it, i confirmed that the church patrons (considering that being a logical reason to say an extra hetinni) would be both of them--if only one than it would be better to say a separate hetinni for each and not both combined.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11815.msg141123#msg141123 date=1310195984] [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141119#msg141119 date=1310193112] I don't understand, Mina, why we limit certain 'hitens' for specific occasions. . .what is wrong with asking for the prayers of Sts. Peter & Paul on a day other than the apostles feast? It seems arbitrary. Please elaborate.
it always seems arbitrary........anything we say today.....but when you turn anything into a "usual" it's meaning is lost.....the eagerness we get to say it change drastically since we now can say it whenever we want.....
Maybe we should pray less often as well? That way we won't lost our eagerness to pray.
What you are basically saying is: We shouldn't say some 'hitens' whenever we want because they become less cool.
There is no restriction, by tradition, or canon, for using a "hiten" at any time. CIA took the aspect of the combined hitens from the Book of Psalmody.
How is asking a saint for prayers for: 'to ask the Lord for the forgiveness of our sins'?
Even when you read the label line for any of the Fraction Prayers, they end with "or at any time".
Prayer, is not seasonal. Talking to a saint is not seasonal.
A feast day for a saint is just a focus day, a reminder, a remembrance, a highlight, it is not exlusive.
Churches named after a given saint will use the hiten for that saint daily.
At the Boutrosia (next to the Great Cathedral in Cairo). The church is dedicated to Sts. Peter and Paul. They say it at every Liturgy. FYI, the reason it is called the "Boutrosia" is not because of St. Peter but rather Boutros Pasha Ghaly who commissioned the construction of this church and is buried there in a crypt under the altar. The church is built with an Armenian style to the altar. It is elevated like an Armenian Sanctuary. There is no iconostasis. For many decades, because of cultural superstition, and because there was a crypt of Boutros Pasha underneath, that weddings would not take place at that church. Because of crowding and schedule issues, and because the church is pretty, there are plenty of weddings at this point.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141124#msg141124 date=1310200259] Maybe we should pray less often as well? That way we won't lost our eagerness to pray.
What you are basically saying is: We shouldn't say some 'hitens' whenever we want because they become less cool.
That is applicable to any hymn of the church.
now you are just taking my words and twisting them......you are comparing "prayer" (as a general action we should be doing) and comparing it with saying one verse of hetin which we sometimes don't even say--does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time....
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11815.msg141146#msg141146 date=1310224103] [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141124#msg141124 date=1310200259] Maybe we should pray less often as well? That way we won't lost our eagerness to pray.
What you are basically saying is: We shouldn't say some 'hitens' whenever we want because they become less cool.
That is applicable to any hymn of the church.
now you are just taking my words and twisting them......you are comparing "prayer" (as a general action we should be doing) and comparing it with saying one verse of hetin which we sometimes don't even say--does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time....
Wrong, Mina. I am using your reasoning applied to the 'hitens' and broadening it. In any case, I agree with ilsm.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141151#msg141151 date=1310243388] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11815.msg141146#msg141146 date=1310224103] [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141124#msg141124 date=1310200259] Maybe we should pray less often as well? That way we won't lost our eagerness to pray.
What you are basically saying is: We shouldn't say some 'hitens' whenever we want because they become less cool.
That is applicable to any hymn of the church.
now you are just taking my words and twisting them......you are comparing "prayer" (as a general action we should be doing) and comparing it with saying one verse of hetin which we sometimes don't even say--does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time....
Wrong, Mina. I am using your reasoning applied to the 'hitens' and broadening it. In any case, I agree with ilsm.
hmmm.....DOUBLE WRONG HABIBI.....and i just took that way of broadening what i said and proved it to be false when i said: does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time.... agreeing with ilsm (or not) doesn't help your argument against my reasoning. my reasoning is actually valid for many other hymns....
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11815.msg141152#msg141152 date=1310244209] [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141151#msg141151 date=1310243388] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11815.msg141146#msg141146 date=1310224103] [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141124#msg141124 date=1310200259] Maybe we should pray less often as well? That way we won't lost our eagerness to pray.
What you are basically saying is: We shouldn't say some 'hitens' whenever we want because they become less cool.
That is applicable to any hymn of the church.
now you are just taking my words and twisting them......you are comparing "prayer" (as a general action we should be doing) and comparing it with saying one verse of hetin which we sometimes don't even say--does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time....
Wrong, Mina. I am using your reasoning applied to the 'hitens' and broadening it. In any case, I agree with ilsm.
hmmm.....DOUBLE WRONG HABIBI.....and i just took that way of broadening what i said and proved it to be false when i said: does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time.... agreeing with ilsm (or not) doesn't help your argument against my reasoning. my reasoning is actually valid for many other hymns....
Your principle that you applied to the 'hitens' was: A 'hiten' for a specific saint that is supposed to be said on a feast day becomes less meaningful if we say it all the time.
The underlying thought behind that is: The more often we do something the less meaningful it becomes.
I applied this to prayer and obviously it does not hold up.
The bold portion of your post makes no sense - we aren't discussing whether certain 'hitens' are essential to prayer. . .
Your 'reasoning' may be valid for other hymns but the hymns in question are the 'hitens.'
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141153#msg141153 date=1310244842] Your principle that you applied .... The underlying thought behind that is: The more often we do something the less meaningful it becomes. The more often we do somthing that is meant for something else the less meaningful it becomes.
I applied this to prayer and obviously it does not hold up.
of course it will NOT HOLD UP.....you are comparing PRAYER--the essence of our fellowship with God till this day, with an extra paragraph of the intercessions we may have to a saint. What's the point of praying to a saint if we ourselves do not pray directly to God?!......... intercessions to saint DO NOT replace our prayer to God but help them be closer to God.
The bold portion of your post makes no sense we aren't discussing whether certain 'hitens' are essential to prayer. . .
we are not....but you are comparing intercessions with prayer.
for what you are saying to be true: A 'hiten' for a specific saint that is supposed to be said on a feast day becomes less meaningful if we say it all the time. AS Prayer becomes less meaningful if we do it all the time.
hetinnies need to equal prayers..........But that is not valid.
you can compare a hetinni with another hetinne, or a hymn or a doxology..........but not prayer in general.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11815.msg141154#msg141154 date=1310248256] [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141153#msg141153 date=1310244842] Your principle that you applied .... The underlying thought behind that is: The more often we do something the less meaningful it becomes. The more often we do somthing that is meant for something else the less meaningful it becomes.
What is asking for the intercessions and prayers of the saints meant for? I thought it was meant to ask them to pray that God may forgive our sins. That never becomes less meaningful, no matter how often we ask for it. They are not meant to be sung on one day or another. That is not their purpose.
If your only argument for not saying the 'hitens' on other days is that it becomes less meaningful on the feast day, we can end this discussion now because that is silly and I don't agree with it.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141155#msg141155 date=1310250482] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11815.msg141154#msg141154 date=1310248256] [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141153#msg141153 date=1310244842] Your principle that you applied .... The underlying thought behind that is: The more often we do something the less meaningful it becomes. The more often we do somthing that is meant for something else the less meaningful it becomes.
What is asking for the intercessions and prayers of the saints meant for? I thought it was meant to ask them to pray that God may forgive our sins. That never becomes less meaningful, no matter how often we ask for it. They are not meant to be sung on one day or another. That is not their purpose.
If your only argument for not saying the 'hitens' on other days is that it becomes less meaningful on the feast day, we can end this discussion now because that is silly and I don't agree with it. i am gonna shutup now because there is no use with me explaining anymore....
Comments
For the hitenis, Can we say the verse for St. Peter and St.Paul throughout the fast or is this verse specifically for the Feast.?
I don't see why you couldn't say it throughout the fast or even anytime during the year.
Forgive me, but FYI it is "pensakh pavlos"
For the hitenis, Can we say the verse for St. Peter and St.Paul throughout the fast or is this verse specifically for the Feast.?
Usually, it's reserved for the feast.
[quote author=Kiro7 link=topic=11815.msg141091#msg141091 date=1310162501]
For the hitenis, Can we say the verse for St. Peter and St.Paul throughout the fast or is this verse specifically for the Feast.?
Usually, it's reserved for the feast.
Granted, but isn't it OK to say any 'hiten' in addition to the standard ones?
Just because one finds it in the section for the feast does not mean that you cannot use it at any time.
There is a Doxology specific to the Two Apostles. It is labeled: 'to be used in the fast or at any time'.
Also in other Books of Psalmody it is labeled as just: "For the Two Apostles: Peter and Paul".
Yes.
Just because one finds it in the section for the feast does not mean that you cannot use it at any time.
There is a Doxology specific to the Two Apostles. It is labeled: 'to be used in the fast or at any time'.
Also in other Books of Psalmody it is labeled as just: "For the Two Apostles: Peter and Paul".
I agree with you but does that mean we say the hetini's for Sts. Joseph, Nicodemus, and Mary Magdelene in any time as well? Or what about Sts. Joseph and Salome?
ilsm, you are right, the second doxology for the apostles is there and i do have it translated and we say it every once in a while......but that is just a SECOND doxology for the apostles to be said anytime......same as the second doxology of saint mark that not much know about.
I don't understand, Mina, why we limit certain 'hitens' for specific occasions. . .what is wrong with asking for the prayers of Sts. Peter & Paul on a day other than the apostles feast? It seems arbitrary. Please elaborate.
it always seems arbitrary........anything we say today.....but when you turn anything into a "usual" it's meaning is lost.....the eagerness we get to say it change drastically since we now can say it whenever we want.....
[quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=11815.msg141121#msg141121 date=1310195265]
I can see that Unworthy1 has a point. Cantor Ibrahim and the Cathedral Chorus add many saints in the intercessions whose commemoration days don't fall on the Feasts of Nativity and Resurrection. The argument of "Well, it's the feast; it should be more saints" won't be credible because I've seen Anton and the Cathedral Chorus say the same intercessions on a regular day.
m. Ibarahim put together combined hitens to include much of the saints, the martyrs(male and female), defenders of the faith...etc. if you ahve heard any other than these, please lead me to a recording.
now, they are general ones of saints that don't have to be limited to the saint of the day. in nativity, we always say the hetinni for Saint Athanasius the Apostolic....why?! simply because of his writing "on the incarnation."
i believe, I BELIEVE, that this hetinni for the feast of the apostles (and general hetinns of specific feasts) is(are) different. that's why when i said it's ok to say it, i confirmed that the church patrons (considering that being a logical reason to say an extra hetinni) would be both of them--if only one than it would be better to say a separate hetinni for each and not both combined.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141119#msg141119 date=1310193112]
I don't understand, Mina, why we limit certain 'hitens' for specific occasions. . .what is wrong with asking for the prayers of Sts. Peter & Paul on a day other than the apostles feast? It seems arbitrary. Please elaborate.
it always seems arbitrary........anything we say today.....but when you turn anything into a "usual" it's meaning is lost.....the eagerness we get to say it change drastically since we now can say it whenever we want.....
Maybe we should pray less often as well? That way we won't lost our eagerness to pray.
What you are basically saying is: We shouldn't say some 'hitens' whenever we want because they become less cool.
That is applicable to any hymn of the church.
CIA took the aspect of the combined hitens from the Book of Psalmody.
How is asking a saint for prayers for: 'to ask the Lord for the forgiveness of our sins'?
Even when you read the label line for any of the Fraction Prayers, they end with "or at any time".
Prayer, is not seasonal. Talking to a saint is not seasonal.
A feast day for a saint is just a focus day, a reminder, a remembrance, a highlight, it is not exlusive.
Churches named after a given saint will use the hiten for that saint daily.
At the Boutrosia (next to the Great Cathedral in Cairo). The church is dedicated to Sts. Peter and Paul. They say it
at every Liturgy. FYI, the reason it is called the "Boutrosia" is not because of St. Peter but rather Boutros Pasha Ghaly who
commissioned the construction of this church and is buried there in a crypt under the altar. The church is built with an Armenian style to the altar. It is elevated like an Armenian Sanctuary. There is no iconostasis. For many decades, because of cultural superstition, and because there was a crypt of Boutros Pasha underneath, that weddings would not take place at that church. Because of crowding and schedule issues, and because the church is pretty, there are plenty of weddings at this point.
Maybe we should pray less often as well? That way we won't lost our eagerness to pray.
What you are basically saying is: We shouldn't say some 'hitens' whenever we want because they become less cool.
That is applicable to any hymn of the church.
now you are just taking my words and twisting them......you are comparing "prayer" (as a general action we should be doing) and comparing it with saying one verse of hetin which we sometimes don't even say--does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time....
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141124#msg141124 date=1310200259]
Maybe we should pray less often as well? That way we won't lost our eagerness to pray.
What you are basically saying is: We shouldn't say some 'hitens' whenever we want because they become less cool.
That is applicable to any hymn of the church.
now you are just taking my words and twisting them......you are comparing "prayer" (as a general action we should be doing) and comparing it with saying one verse of hetin which we sometimes don't even say--does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time....
Wrong, Mina. I am using your reasoning applied to the 'hitens' and broadening it. In any case, I agree with ilsm.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11815.msg141146#msg141146 date=1310224103]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141124#msg141124 date=1310200259]
Maybe we should pray less often as well? That way we won't lost our eagerness to pray.
What you are basically saying is: We shouldn't say some 'hitens' whenever we want because they become less cool.
That is applicable to any hymn of the church.
now you are just taking my words and twisting them......you are comparing "prayer" (as a general action we should be doing) and comparing it with saying one verse of hetin which we sometimes don't even say--does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time....
Wrong, Mina. I am using your reasoning applied to the 'hitens' and broadening it. In any case, I agree with ilsm.
hmmm.....DOUBLE WRONG HABIBI.....and i just took that way of broadening what i said and proved it to be false when i said: does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time....
agreeing with ilsm (or not) doesn't help your argument against my reasoning. my reasoning is actually valid for many other hymns....
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141151#msg141151 date=1310243388]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11815.msg141146#msg141146 date=1310224103]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141124#msg141124 date=1310200259]
Maybe we should pray less often as well? That way we won't lost our eagerness to pray.
What you are basically saying is: We shouldn't say some 'hitens' whenever we want because they become less cool.
That is applicable to any hymn of the church.
now you are just taking my words and twisting them......you are comparing "prayer" (as a general action we should be doing) and comparing it with saying one verse of hetin which we sometimes don't even say--does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time....
Wrong, Mina. I am using your reasoning applied to the 'hitens' and broadening it. In any case, I agree with ilsm.
hmmm.....DOUBLE WRONG HABIBI.....and i just took that way of broadening what i said and proved it to be false when i said: does that mean we don't 'pray' when we don't say the hetinns?....because we do skip them a LOT on weekdays liturgies for the sake of time....
agreeing with ilsm (or not) doesn't help your argument against my reasoning. my reasoning is actually valid for many other hymns....
Your principle that you applied to the 'hitens' was: A 'hiten' for a specific saint that is supposed to be said on a feast day becomes less meaningful if we say it all the time.
The underlying thought behind that is: The more often we do something the less meaningful it becomes.
I applied this to prayer and obviously it does not hold up.
The bold portion of your post makes no sense - we aren't discussing whether certain 'hitens' are essential to prayer. . .
Your 'reasoning' may be valid for other hymns but the hymns in question are the 'hitens.'
Your principle that you applied ....
The underlying thought behind that is: The more often we do something the less meaningful it becomes.
The more often we do somthing that is meant for something else the less meaningful it becomes. of course it will NOT HOLD UP.....you are comparing PRAYER--the essence of our fellowship with God till this day, with an extra paragraph of the intercessions we may have to a saint. What's the point of praying to a saint if we ourselves do not pray directly to God?!......... intercessions to saint DO NOT replace our prayer to God but help them be closer to God. we are not....but you are comparing intercessions with prayer.
for what you are saying to be true:
A 'hiten' for a specific saint that is supposed to be said on a feast day becomes less meaningful if we say it all the time.
AS
Prayer becomes less meaningful if we do it all the time.
hetinnies need to equal prayers..........But that is not valid.
you can compare a hetinni with another hetinne, or a hymn or a doxology..........but not prayer in general.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141153#msg141153 date=1310244842]
Your principle that you applied ....
The underlying thought behind that is: The more often we do something the less meaningful it becomes.
The more often we do somthing that is meant for something else the less meaningful it becomes.
What is asking for the intercessions and prayers of the saints meant for? I thought it was meant to ask them to pray that God may forgive our sins. That never becomes less meaningful, no matter how often we ask for it. They are not meant to be sung on one day or another. That is not their purpose.
If your only argument for not saying the 'hitens' on other days is that it becomes less meaningful on the feast day, we can end this discussion now because that is silly and I don't agree with it.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11815.msg141154#msg141154 date=1310248256]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11815.msg141153#msg141153 date=1310244842]
Your principle that you applied ....
The underlying thought behind that is: The more often we do something the less meaningful it becomes.
The more often we do somthing that is meant for something else the less meaningful it becomes.
What is asking for the intercessions and prayers of the saints meant for? I thought it was meant to ask them to pray that God may forgive our sins. That never becomes less meaningful, no matter how often we ask for it. They are not meant to be sung on one day or another. That is not their purpose.
If your only argument for not saying the 'hitens' on other days is that it becomes less meaningful on the feast day, we can end this discussion now because that is silly and I don't agree with it.
i am gonna shutup now because there is no use with me explaining anymore....