Can you provide a source that says that the Coptic church rejects Catholic sacraments. I have heard from many sources that they are considered valid and in the church I used to attend, this seemed to be the consensus. If I am correct, a Catholic joining the Coptic church is treating just a like a greek orthodox. They are not rebaptized. Am I wrong?
Also, mina. "Not having enough females" is a symptom. Almost all the youth are leave the church. If there is no problem with the Coptic church, then why are they all leaving? I used to think that it was my duty to struggle with the church and try to fix these problems. But I don't think this is the case anymore. It was a big mistake.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141807#msg141807 date=1311455103] Can you provide a source that says that the Coptic church rejects Catholic sacraments. I have heard from many sources that they are considered valid and in the church I used to attend, this seemed to be the consensus. I'll leave that for Fr. Peter....he is a priest in the British Orthodox Church.....he knows better.
If I am correct, a Catholic joining the Coptic church is treating just a like a greek orthodox. They are not rebaptized. Am I wrong?
Yes you are wrong.......Fr. Peter will present sources.
Also, mina. "Not having enough females" is a symptom. Almost all the youth are leave the church. If there is no problem with the Coptic church, then why are they all leaving? I used to think that it was my duty to struggle with the church and try to fix these problems. But I don't think this is the case anymore. It was a big mistake.
So you are blaming "GOD" for not "forcing" females to be in our Church?!....for some reason i think you listen to many Islamic ideas where marriage is actually a "duty"....we are not muslims, we are Orthodox Christians. Marriage is not a necessity (for 100th time)......if someone does not believe in the Church led by God then LET HIM BE!!! Jesus said, "He who does not love me, is not worthy of me".
please comment to my post here: Matthew 10:37 NKJV He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
these are the same father and mother which GOD spoke about saying: Ephesians 6:1-2 "Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise. You do the math........
and Cephas clarified what i mean here: He's saying that if you love anything or anyone more than Christ, you are not worthy of Christ.
Anubis, you are saying the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. You really need to be educated about the Coptic Church, you are being very ignorant. If i was a girl in the coptic church and you were going to ask to marry me I would tell you no because in marriage your spouse should be able to support you spiritually. You aren't going to do that. By the way you talk and the filth you have spewing into your posts says to me that you would leave the coptic church for the protestant church because you can't eat ice cream in the fasting periods.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=11899.msg141812#msg141812 date=1311458722] By the way you talk and the filth you have spewing into your posts says to me that you would leave the coptic church for the protestant church because you can't eat ice cream in the fasting periods.
This made me laugh.
Anyway, I was really hoping this would be more constructive. I'll tell you what: If any of you can give me a good source stating that the Coptic synod does not recognize the sacraments of the Catholic Church, I will not leave.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141814#msg141814 date=1311459038] [quote author=geomike link=topic=11899.msg141812#msg141812 date=1311458722] By the way you talk and the filth you have spewing into your posts says to me that you would leave the coptic church for the protestant church because you can't eat ice cream in the fasting periods.
This made me laugh.
Anyway, I was really hoping this would be more constructive. I'll tell you what: If any of you can give me a good source stating that the Coptic synod does not recognize the sacraments of the Catholic Church, I will not leave.
Anubis, this isn't a funny matter. Yes, I might've sounded harsh but i want you to understand the severity of the decisions you are making.
If you go to google you will find sources. I will tell you a few things why we don't agree with Catholics.
Catholics believe that St. Mary was a perfect person with no sin at all, we believe that this is wrong because there is nobody without sin except Him alone. They believe that after they die they will go to a place called pergatory to repent from there sins and they will come back to Heaven, we don't believe that. We believe that after you die, there is nothing that you can do to go to Heaven or Hell, once you die it's done and now you wait for God to make His decision. The Catholic people believe that if somebody was a bad person and then he died, they could pray for him a lot and then God will change His mind about sending him to hell. We don't believe that because of the reason I wrote two sentences ago.
These are just a few of the many things you will find that we don't agree on.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141814#msg141814 date=1311459038] Anyway, I was really hoping this would be more constructive. I'll tell you what: If any of you can give me a good source stating that the Coptic synod does not recognize the sacraments of the Catholic Church, I will not leave.
My God! Such arrogance. I seem to recall every heretic that arose was just as arrogant. Quite frankly, if you do not believe the reality that the Church founded by Christ is the Orthodox Church, no one will convince you of it. There is sufficient evidence.
'If you will not hear the Truth, no one can tell it to you.'
Seven steps to crucifying the ego and allowing the Truth to set you free.
[li] Never rely on your own wisdom or might or on human strength in any of your works. Otherwise, your mind will become dim and your insight blurred, thus blocking the way for grace to enter you and show you the way of God. You will thus be led astray from truth and fall into the enemy’s trap. At the end, you will be enslaved to your own ego and to the desires of other people, “Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!” (Is.5.21).[/li]
[li] Beware of thinking highly of yourself. Never feel that without you the world would stop. For your self would seem great and grand in your own eyes. Know instead that God can use another to do the work better than you. He can make the weak mighty and the mighty weak, the wise foolish and the foolish wise. Everything good and useful in you is from God and not from you. If you do not hand it over to God and with conviction attribute it to him, he will tear it away from you. If you boast of your intelligence or virtue, God will leave them to you as merely human gifts. They will then turn into corruption, loss, and damage.[/li]
[li] Your ego might hate submitting to God. It might escape surrendering to him. In the meantime, you would be making much of your own power – attributing your intelligence, virtue, and success to yourself. In this case, God will deliver you to continual discipline; discipline after discipline, tribulation after tribulation, until you succumb and surrender in brokenness. But if you reject discipline and cannot stand tribulation, God will forsake you forever.[/li]
[li] Take heed then and open your ears: Either count yourself as nothing in word and deed and make up your mind to surrender yourself to God will all your might – and you will then gladly be released from your ego by the grace of God; or, you will be delivered to discipline until you are set free from your ego in spite of yourself. So if you wish to opt for the easier way, take that of voluntary submission. Count yourself from now on as nothing, and follow the path of grace wherever the Spirit may wish to lead you.[/li]
[li] Know for certain that submission to God and total surrender to his will and divine plan are a free gift of grace. It thus demands, besides prayer and supplication, a trusting faith to receive this gift. This should be coupled with a longing springing from one’s heart that God may not deliver us to discipline for our folly, nor abandon us to our own wisdom. For this reason, we should have an extremely resolute will to renounce our own self at all times and in all works. This should not be done ostentatiously before people but within our conscience. Blessed is the man who can discover his own weakness and ignorance and confess them before God to the last day of his life.[/li]
[li] If you fall under discipline, know for sure that this is a great profit, for God chastises the soul that has forgotten its weakness and has been puffed up by its talents and success. This is carried on until it realizes its weakness, especially when God does not provide in tribulation a way to escape. He besieges the soul from all sides and embitters it with inward and outward humiliation, whether by sin or by scandal, until it abhors itself, curses its own intelligence, and disowns its counsel. Finally, it surrenders itself to God, feeling crushed and lowly. At such a time, it becomes easy for man to hate himself. He even wishes to be hated by everybody. This is the way of true humility. It leads to total surrender to divine plan. It ends up with freeing one’s soul from the tyranny of the ego, with its deception, its stubbornness, and its vanity.[/li]
[li] If you wish to free your soul by the shortest and simplest way, sit down every day under the discipline of grace. Examine your thoughts, movements, intentions, purposes, words, and deeds in the light of God’s word. It is then that you shall discover the corruption of the ego, its imposture, slyness, deception, vanity, and lack of chastity. If you persist in doing this regularly in contrition, you will manage to sever yourself from your false and devilish ego. You will then be able to overpower it bit by bit until you can deny it altogether, hate it, and break jail from its tyranny. You will at last discover the catastrophe into which your ego has led you for obeying it, finding peace in its shelter, boasting of it, and seeking its respect. [/li]
The moment you realize at the bottom of your heart that you are nothing and that God is everything, then the truth shall have set you free.
Anubis: Really, enjoy your single life. Really! Like seriously, just go out and have fun man, screw this marriage stuff till you find the right girl, it will happen. Go out and be yourself, keep your hobbies active, and work on your spiritual life. Work and marriage will take a lot out of you. K man? Don't fret
[quote author=Khas. link=topic=11899.msg141873#msg141873 date=1311552938] Anubis: Really, enjoy your single life. Really! Like seriously, just go out and have fun man, screw this marriage stuff till you find the right girl, it will happen. Go out and be yourself, keep your hobbies active, and work on your spiritual life. Work and marriage will take a lot out of you. K man? Don't fret
I agree. Enjoy your single life Anubis!!! If you cannot enjoy being with yourself alone, i doubt someone will enjoy being alone with you either.
anubis, try going to some young professional coptic youth conferences. don't just go to ones in your area, spread out...most of my friends met their future husbands/wives at those things anyway. In fact pple joke that those things are called BYOD (bring your own debla).
Some serious advice though, If you're so concerned with finding a wife, then thats a problem. As long as that is your focus, you can't make a good decision, and you won't become a Godly husband.
forget about marriage, and worry about ur spiritual life, and marriage will be dealt with on its own
Thanks for sharing some of the details of your very important struggle with marriage plans. I know that this is a challenging and mysterious struggle for most serious Coptic and Orthodox young adults. You are wise and blessed to be very cautious and critical in choosing a holy wife. I hope you have noticed that we have recently had a long discussion regarding the gut wrenching traumas that a disobedient, rebellious Coptic wife can cause to all phases of life of a serious young Coptic husband and his children. See, http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,11418.0.html. The good news is that the incidence rate of similarly rebellious divorcing young Coptic wives is still considerably lower (but increasing, without any overt traditional spiritual countermeasures) than that of any major U.S. christian denomination (most especially, the Catholics).
I gather from reading your comments on the Catholic Church, that the ultimate sources for most of your ideas are Catholics or weak, uninformed, Catholic propagandized Copts. You’ve recognized the generally unspiritual, immoral fruits from many generations of U.S. Catholics. There is very little difference between U.S. Catholic and Protestant spirituality and morality. They are proudly trying to show-off their best poses. The bare truth is much worse. Don’t get entangled in that web, especially with your children. You haven’t explained why your Coptic catechesis seems weak. Some small, remote parishes have “modern” political controversies that stiffle growth. You write well, so you may have concentrated on studies, etc. Most of the Coptic immigrants came here for easier money, not for spiritual enrichment. Generally small families are part of this formula. Therefore, fewer (and poorly catechesized) “cool, spoiled, feminist minded, American want-to-be” wife prospects. A mistake = life-long misery for you and your children. I would say that the slightest hint of feminist sympathy/ tendency is not worth the risk = Cali girls. Holy exceptions?
Who can doubt that the world is now especially spiritually unsettled, much as it appears to have been when St. Paul was advising the Corinthians against marriage. Several earlier posters also advised caution. Study 1 Cor. 7:1-40. See, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xx.html, et.seq. St. Chrysostom always reads like he wrote his homily just to me, last night. There is nothing new under the sun.
Just another caution for you to consider. The modern Chrysostom marriage book that you referenced is translated and published by known to be feminist, “orthodox” authors. Of course, they have used their subtle demonic feminist rhetorical (“lawyering”) skills to make their work seem to be authentic. Be of sober spirit, be on alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. ... . 1 Pet.5:8-11. True Orthodox Christianity seeks to worship and to live in the same manner that preserved our faith from our forefathers/ mothers, and in turn, from the Apostles. Catholicism and Protestantism always seek to change to accommodate the constant changes (advances?) in “modern” society. Orthodoxy has to always seek to understand the latest cultural fads in order to avoid their objectives, to betray our unchangeable Father God and to compromise the Orthodox servants of God.
You asked for orthodox references regarding Catholic beliefs and practices. The Coptic Diocese of the Southern U.S. has several interesting links under Questions and Answers and Resources. Try these to get started.
A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
[quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11899.msg142182#msg142182 date=1311952679] A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that their are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
[quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11899.msg142182#msg142182 date=1311952679] A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that their are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
[quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11899.msg142182#msg142182 date=1311952679] A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that there are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's "Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition"]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
I see a pattern, but also, as I mentioned before, more contradictions to many of your other authenticated posts. Is this a more “amusing,” unintended “freudian” admissions of your obvious factual fabrication and theological heterodoxy?
We're anxiously waiting for your complete correction, or further amplification of your beliefs and practices.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11899.msg142458#msg142458 date=1312288673] Whoever wrote that blog needs some serious education on the Oriental Church
Of course, I didn’t invite and don’t agree with Cephas’s unexplained and unauthenticated further misrepresentations of my personal life and beliefs. I don’t understand his insistant self-righteousness in the face of his refusal to prove or withdraw his challenged one-month old post. I’m new here, but is this how personal credibility and integrity is established? By spewing dishonest insults and graphics? That’s truly the predominate practice of all God-hating demonic -ism’s. Just the dishonest persecutions that Jesus promised us.
Anubis had repeatedly asked for explanations of many earlier general criticisms of Catholicism. He is reasonably well read in some areas, but nobody was providing him with objective help here. Copts are generally not quick to criticize other major beliefs (big bullies). I’ve heard Anba Bishoy discuss some Catholic heresies and I’ve read a Coptic pamphlet that listed major Catholic belief and practice problems. I couldn’t find any references to these, so I referred him to relevant links at the Coptic Diocese of Southern U.S. and to the ROCA/ ROCOR book on Ecumenism’s chapter on Lies of the Latins. The Southern Diocese comments are rather narrow answers to specific questions. Latin Lies describes Catholic apostacies in more depth. I read through the Lies chapter and think it makes a true and convincing case against major Catholic apostacies. Did you read the Lies of Latins chapter? What particular statements do you disagree with? I hope it helped Anubis and any other Catholic Heresy deniers that we reach.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11899.msg142209#msg142209 date=1311987203] [quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11899.msg142182#msg142182 date=1311952679] A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that there are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
Yes, of course, the book, Ecumenism-A Path to Perdition, which is based on the 1983 anathema of the Synod of Bishops of the ROCA/ ROCOR against ecumenism and the “branch” theory of true and acceptable conflicting Christian Church doctrines and practices, appears to be uncomfortably strict when applied to those who insist on the liberty to worship their gods in whatever manner they choose, instead of striving to obey the patriarchal precepts of true apostolic/ patristic orthodoxy. During my Orthodox formation, I received a lot of understanding from Fr. (St.) Seraphim Rose’s writings in this ROCA/ ROCOR manner, so I’m no longer puzzled by this direct manner.
“Heresy of heresies” seems to be a valid description of ecumenism, where it is shown that the more specific heresies addressed in each chapter are embraced/ tolerated, with variable enthusiasm within the general anti-patriarchal “ecumenical” spirit. Accommodation of Catholicism (or any other heterodox faith belief, feminism for example), as Anubis seems to be tempted to, is a heretical element of the heresy of ecumenism. Heresy of heresies, by definition.
Over a period of several years, I have read and reread most of the book. I believe the book’s reasoned, theological opposition to modern ecumenism’s demonic, spiritless, elitest, intellectual agenda to foment chaos and fickle secular innovation in the Apostolic Orthodox Churches of God is necessary and unequaled. What facets of the book do you consider to be disloyal to the true orthodox theology of Holy Bible and of the Holy Orthodox Fathers? What specific Holy Bible’s and Holy Fathers’ teachings is your criticism based upon? It seems to me that the book is true to all of the relevant teachings of our Holy Orthodox Church in the Chalcedonian Eastern Orthodox tradition, which I find to be helpful to all Orthodox Christians in most areas of true Orthodox theology. From this book, the author seems, to me, to be a mature, faithful, righteous Orthodox woman and a skilled and God blessed theologian. Who, in our time, would you suggest that the author doesn’t surpass in these categories? Of course the monophysite slander is a seemingly meaningless, mysterious thorn that has deflated pan-orthodox pride for 15 centuries, and is a seemingly important excuse for some sinful historical abuses by imperial Chalcedonian orthodox apologists. Of course, we non-Chalcedonians also have too many shameful abuses in our, less frequent, imperial opportunities.. I say meaningless because I find the “adversaries’” relevant beliefs to be essentially identical. If we were embracing the Greeks, Russians, Serbs, Antiochians, etc., just look at all of their scandals, immoralities and hypocracies we would have to befriend. Thank God for everything. The Russian Orthodox challenge that I mentioned concerning marriage with Russian Orthodox is the monophysite slander- which God enabled me to overcome.
I will add, since my major personal concern is the “new” epidemic of pan-orthodox, ecumenical demonic feminism that has already proven its ability to destroy Western Catholic and Protestant family life and sexual morality, that it seems to me that the Holy Bible prescribes the assistance of the teaching of a true Orthodox woman “theologian” to this fatal deficiency in current Orthodox catechesis. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored. Titus 2:3-5. The chapter entitled “Priesthood of Women” addresses ecumenism’s included heresy of demonic feminism. The 1909 vision reported in footnote {65} of this chapter concerning feminism, forewarns of the demonic feminism caused Coptic/ Orthodox family divorce and destruction we are sharing in this forum and in Coptic parishes throughout the United States. Yes, although at times the ROCA/ ROCOR methods are somewhat uncomfortable, I find acceptance or agreement and unique value with the entire book. Ecumenism’s entire program is based on demonic rebellion against God’s unchangeable patriarchal paradigm, behind dishonest, whinning feminist nagging. WCC now celebrates Gay and Lesbian “priests” and “bishops.” I think it is blessedly appropriate that ecumenism’s trashy false facade be dignantly, publically stripped bare by an obedient, holy true orthodox woman theologian, using the invincible sword of The Word of God.
Yes, I have been baptized, struggling Coptic/ Tewahedo Orthodox for 16 years. I got here from serious Irish Catholic birth/ heritege/ dissipations and through searching, serious practice and study for an authentic alternative Apostolic Christianity at U.S. Greek, Antiochian, OCA, ROCOR, Serbian, Indian, Armenian, Greek Old Calendar, Coptic, Ethiopean and Ukranian Orthodox Churches. The monophysite slander was a special challenge to my Orthodox formation. It is very difficult to righteously seek to join a community that every known christian authority seriously informs is heretical monophysite. Thankfully, my study interest coincided with the availability of the many English documents of the Chalcedonian reunion discussions. The thoughts and works of Bishop Paulos Mar Gregorios helped guide me through this theological minefield. In the end, I have concluded that, within my limitations, the essence of the true beliefs of both my Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian friends are the same. Neither had the understanding nor the ability to understandably explain their belief to me. It took me nine years to receive this understanding and preparedness for baptism. More amazingly, my final understanding of the nature of Christ’s divinity and humanity is essentially the same as I received from my rural Irish Catholic priest in 5th-6th grade cathechism.
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's "Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition"]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
This is routine Chalcedonian rhetoric. Protecting their Imperial legislation-Seven Ecumenical Councils. We have to learn how to understandably explain our Cyrillian beliefs, in Chalcedonian historical context, so that it is understandable between us and to all other “outsiders”/ “deniers.” This slander paints us into a pretty small circle, so our misbehavior is amplified. Doesn’t this encourage our discernible general moral behavior? Thank God.
While trying to find a way to respond to your concerned questions, I came across a seemingly blessed summary of a typically insightful relevant lecture of Fr. (St.) Seraphim Rose, concerning our common challenge to live an Orthodox world-view. Anubis may also want to consider these thoughts.
Living an Orthodox World-View. Excerpt from a lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose, given near the end of his earthly life in 1982. http://www.roca.org/OA/22/22E.htm
There are two false approaches to the life around us that many Orthodox often make today. The most common one is simply to go along with the spirit of the times. Lacking a strong Orthodox example in their parents, many Orthodox young people are not even aware of the need to struggle against the universal temptation of this "narcissist" age. They readily blend in with the anti-Christian world around them. This is death to the soul. As Christians we must be different from the world, and teach our children this difference. Otherwise there is no point in calling ourselves Christians, and Orthodox Christians at that.
The false approach at the opposite extreme is what one might call false spirituality, or "super -spirituality," often taken by those who have zeal without knowledge (Rom. 10:2). As translations of Orthodox texts on spiritual life are made available, one finds an increasing number of people talking about "hesychasm," the Jesus prayer, exalted spiritual states, etc. It is wonderful to be inspired and to realize our high calling, but unless we have a very realistic and very humble awareness of how far away all-of us are from these Spiritual heights, our interest will only develop into a new game which is just another expression of our self-centered, plastic universe.
The importance of avoiding these two extremes of worldliness and super-spirituality cannot be overemphasized. This is not to say that we should not have a realistic awareness of the legitimate demands which the world makes upon us, or that we should cease respecting and taking sound instruction from the great hesychast Fathers and using the Jesus prayer ourselves, according to our circumstances and capacity. The point is that we must deeply realize what times we live in, how little we actually know our Orthodox faith and how much we must humble ourselves just to survive as Orthodox Christians today.
What Can We Do?
What can, and should, one do to avoid the above-mentioned extremes and to lead a truly fruitful life in these perilous times? Because the periods of childhood and youth are so critical to the formation of the soul, the answer to this question should be directed first of all to parents. They must be aware that the world seldom helps and almost always hinders the upbringing of a child in the true Orthodox spirit. Even what a child learns in school today is seldom free of many wrong attitudes and philosophies. Parents, therefore, have a great responsibility both to be aware of what their child is being exposed to --whether TV programs, sex education classes at school, movies, popular music--, and to educate their child in a proper Christian understanding of things. A child who is given an appreciation for good classical music, literature, history, art, even science, is at least partially inoculated against the plastic culture and its temptations.
But it is not only children-it is all of us --who are facing a life and death struggle with the anti-Christian world which is indeed "too much with us" today. One who is converted to Orthodoxy straight from "rock" culture has a difficult road to follow before he can become a truly serious Orthodox Christian. On the other hand, the person who is well-acquainted with the best products of secular culture--which in the West almost always has definite religious and Christian overtones--has a much better chance of leading a normal, fruitful Orthodox life. We must not artificially isolate ourselves from the reality of today's world; rather, we must learn to use the best things the world has to offer, for everything good in the world--if we are only wise enough to see it--points to God, and we must make use of it. Too many people make the mistake of limiting Orthodoxy to church services, set prayers, and the occasional reading of a spiritual book. True Orthodoxy, however, requires a commitment that involves every aspect of our lives. One is Orthodox all the time every day, in every situation of life--or one is not really Orthodox at all. For this reason we must develop an Orthodox world-view and live it.
Of course, I didn’t invite and don’t agree with Cephas’s unexplained and unauthenticated further misrepresentations of my personal life and beliefs. I don’t understand his insistant self-righteousness in the face of his refusal to prove or withdraw his challenged one-month old post. I’m new here, but is this how personal credibility and integrity is established? By spewing dishonest insults and graphics? That’s truly the predominate practice of all God-hating demonic -ism’s. Just the dishonest persecutions that Jesus promised us.
Anubis had repeatedly asked for explanations of many earlier general criticisms of Catholicism. He is reasonably well read in some areas, but nobody was providing him with objective help here. Copts are generally not quick to criticize other major beliefs (big bullies). I’ve heard Anba Bishoy discuss some Catholic heresies and I’ve read a Coptic pamphlet that listed major Catholic belief and practice problems. I couldn’t find any references to these, so I referred him to relevant links at the Coptic Diocese of Southern U.S. and to the ROCA/ ROCOR book on Ecumenism’s chapter on Lies of the Latins. The Southern Diocese comments are rather narrow answers to specific questions. Latin Lies describes Catholic apostacies in more depth. I read through the Lies chapter and think it makes a true and convincing case against major Catholic apostacies. Did you read the Lies of Latins chapter? What particular statements do you disagree with? I hope it helped Anubis and any other Catholic Heresy deniers that we reach.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11899.msg142209#msg142209 date=1311987203] [quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11899.msg142182#msg142182 date=1311952679] A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that there are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
Yes, of course, the book, Ecumenism-A Path to Perdition, which is based on the 1983 anathema of the Synod of Bishops of the ROCA/ ROCOR against ecumenism and the “branch” theory of true and acceptable conflicting Christian Church doctrines and practices, appears to be uncomfortably strict when applied to those who insist on the liberty to worship their gods in whatever manner they choose, instead of striving to obey the patriarchal precepts of true apostolic/ patristic orthodoxy. During my Orthodox formation, I received a lot of understanding from Fr. (St.) Seraphim Rose’s writings in this ROCA/ ROCOR manner, so I’m no longer puzzled by this direct manner.
“Heresy of heresies” seems to be a valid description of ecumenism, where it is shown that the more specific heresies addressed in each chapter are embraced/ tolerated, with variable enthusiasm within the general anti-patriarchal “ecumenical” spirit. Accommodation of Catholicism (or any other heterodox faith belief, feminism for example), as Anubis seems to be tempted to, is a heretical element of the heresy of ecumenism. Heresy of heresies, by definition.
Over a period of several years, I have read and reread most of the book. I believe the book’s reasoned, theological opposition to modern ecumenism’s demonic, spiritless, elitest, intellectual agenda to foment chaos and fickle secular innovation in the Apostolic Orthodox Churches of God is necessary and unequaled. What facets of the book do you consider to be disloyal to the true orthodox theology of Holy Bible and of the Holy Orthodox Fathers? What specific Holy Bible’s and Holy Fathers’ teachings is your criticism based upon? It seems to me that the book is true to all of the relevant teachings of our Holy Orthodox Church in the Chalcedonian Eastern Orthodox tradition, which I find to be helpful to all Orthodox Christians in most areas of true Orthodox theology. From this book, the author seems, to me, to be a mature, faithful, righteous Orthodox woman and a skilled and God blessed theologian. Who, in our time, would you suggest that the author doesn’t surpass in these categories? Of course the monophysite slander is a seemingly meaningless, mysterious thorn that has deflated pan-orthodox pride for 15 centuries, and is a seemingly important excuse for some sinful historical abuses by imperial Chalcedonian orthodox apologists. Of course, we non-Chalcedonians also have too many shameful abuses in our, less frequent, imperial opportunities.. I say meaningless because I find the “adversaries’” relevant beliefs to be essentially identical. If we were embracing the Greeks, Russians, Serbs, Antiochians, etc., just look at all of their scandals, immoralities and hypocracies we would have to befriend. Thank God for everything. The Russian Orthodox challenge that I mentioned concerning marriage with Russian Orthodox is the monophysite slander- which God enabled me to overcome.
I will add, since my major personal concern is the “new” epidemic of pan-orthodox, ecumenical demonic feminism that has already proven its ability to destroy Western Catholic and Protestant family life and sexual morality, that it seems to me that the Holy Bible prescribes the assistance of the teaching of a true Orthodox woman “theologian” to this fatal deficiency in current Orthodox catechesis. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored. Titus 2:3-5. The chapter entitled “Priesthood of Women” addresses ecumenism’s included heresy of demonic feminism. The 1909 vision reported in footnote {65} of this chapter concerning feminism, forewarns of the demonic feminism caused Coptic/ Orthodox family divorce and destruction we are sharing in this forum and in Coptic parishes throughout the United States. Yes, although at times the ROCA/ ROCOR methods are somewhat uncomfortable, I find acceptance or agreement and unique value with the entire book. Ecumenism’s entire program is based on demonic rebellion against God’s unchangeable patriarchal paradigm, behind dishonest, whinning feminist nagging. WCC now celebrates Gay and Lesbian “priests” and “bishops.” I think it is blessedly appropriate that ecumenism’s trashy false facade be dignantly, publically stripped bare by an obedient, holy true orthodox woman theologian, using the invincible sword of The Word of God.
Yes, I have been baptized, struggling Coptic/ Tewahedo Orthodox for 16 years. I got here from serious Irish Catholic birth/ heritege/ dissipations and through searching, serious practice and study for an authentic alternative Apostolic Christianity at U.S. Greek, Antiochian, OCA, ROCOR, Serbian, Indian, Armenian, Greek Old Calendar, Coptic, Ethiopean and Ukranian Orthodox Churches. The monophysite slander was a special challenge to my Orthodox formation. It is very difficult to righteously seek to join a community that every known christian authority seriously informs is heretical monophysite. Thankfully, my study interest coincided with the availability of the many English documents of the Chalcedonian reunion discussions. The thoughts and works of Bishop Paulos Mar Gregorios helped guide me through this theological minefield. In the end, I have concluded that, within my limitations, the essence of the true beliefs of both my Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian friends are the same. Neither had the understanding nor the ability to understandably explain their belief to me. It took me nine years to receive this understanding and preparedness for baptism. More amazingly, my final understanding of the nature of Christ’s divinity and humanity is essentially the same as I received from my rural Irish Catholic priest in 5th-6th grade cathechism.
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's "Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition"]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
This is routine Chalcedonian rhetoric. Protecting their Imperial legislation-Seven Ecumenical Councils. We have to learn how to understandably explain our Cyrillian beliefs, in Chalcedonian historical context, so that it is understandable between us and to all other “outsiders”/ “deniers.” This slander paints us into a pretty small circle, so our misbehavior is amplified. Doesn’t this encourage our discernible general moral behavior? Thank God.
While trying to find a way to respond to your concerned questions, I came across a seemingly blessed summary of a typically insightful relevant lecture of Fr. (St.) Seraphim Rose, concerning our common challenge to live an Orthodox world-view. Anubis may also want to consider these thoughts.
Living an Orthodox World-View. Excerpt from a lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose, given near the end of his earthly life in 1982. http://www.roca.org/OA/22/22E.htm
There are two false approaches to the life around us that many Orthodox often make today. The most common one is simply to go along with the spirit of the times. Lacking a strong Orthodox example in their parents, many Orthodox young people are not even aware of the need to struggle against the universal temptation of this "narcissist" age. They readily blend in with the anti-Christian world around them. This is death to the soul. As Christians we must be different from the world, and teach our children this difference. Otherwise there is no point in calling ourselves Christians, and Orthodox Christians at that.
The false approach at the opposite extreme is what one might call false spirituality, or "super -spirituality," often taken by those who have zeal without knowledge (Rom. 10:2). As translations of Orthodox texts on spiritual life are made available, one finds an increasing number of people talking about "hesychasm," the Jesus prayer, exalted spiritual states, etc. It is wonderful to be inspired and to realize our high calling, but unless we have a very realistic and very humble awareness of how far away all-of us are from these Spiritual heights, our interest will only develop into a new game which is just another expression of our self-centered, plastic universe.
The importance of avoiding these two extremes of worldliness and super-spirituality cannot be overemphasized. This is not to say that we should not have a realistic awareness of the legitimate demands which the world makes upon us, or that we should cease respecting and taking sound instruction from the great hesychast Fathers and using the Jesus prayer ourselves, according to our circumstances and capacity. The point is that we must deeply realize what times we live in, how little we actually know our Orthodox faith and how much we must humble ourselves just to survive as Orthodox Christians today.
What Can We Do?
What can, and should, one do to avoid the above-mentioned extremes and to lead a truly fruitful life in these perilous times? Because the periods of childhood and youth are so critical to the formation of the soul, the answer to this question should be directed first of all to parents. They must be aware that the world seldom helps and almost always hinders the upbringing of a child in the true Orthodox spirit. Even what a child learns in school today is seldom free of many wrong attitudes and philosophies. Parents, therefore, have a great responsibility both to be aware of what their child is being exposed to --whether TV programs, sex education classes at school, movies, popular music--, and to educate their child in a proper Christian understanding of things. A child who is given an appreciation for good classical music, literature, history, art, even science, is at least partially inoculated against the plastic culture and its temptations.
But it is not only children-it is all of us --who are facing a life and death struggle with the anti-Christian world which is indeed "too much with us" today. One who is converted to Orthodoxy straight from "rock" culture has a difficult road to follow before he can become a truly serious Orthodox Christian. On the other hand, the person who is well-acquainted with the best products of secular culture--which in the West almost always has definite religious and Christian overtones--has a much better chance of leading a normal, fruitful Orthodox life. We must not artificially isolate ourselves from the reality of today's world; rather, we must learn to use the best things the world has to offer, for everything good in the world--if we are only wise enough to see it--points to God, and we must make use of it. Too many people make the mistake of limiting Orthodoxy to church services, set prayers, and the occasional reading of a spiritual book. True Orthodoxy, however, requires a commitment that involves every aspect of our lives. One is Orthodox all the time every day, in every situation of life--or one is not really Orthodox at all. For this reason we must develop an Orthodox world-view and live it.
----I HAVE TAKEN THE LIBERTY OF POSTING WHAT YOU WROTE MYSELF B/C IT HAS COME UP AS SPAM AND IS NOT SHOWING. NEXT TIME USE THE "INSERT HYPERLINK" OPTION WHEN PUTTING A LINK.----
Thank you. I would have never understood that problem. I was ready to waste today on the problem. Forgive me for starting the problem and your frustration.
Comments
Can you provide a source that says that the Coptic church rejects Catholic sacraments. I have heard from many sources that they are considered valid and in the church I used to attend, this seemed to be the consensus.
If I am correct, a Catholic joining the Coptic church is treating just a like a greek orthodox. They are not rebaptized. Am I wrong?
Also, mina. "Not having enough females" is a symptom. Almost all the youth are leave the church. If there is no problem with the Coptic church, then why are they all leaving? I used to think that it was my duty to struggle with the church and try to fix these problems. But I don't think this is the case anymore. It was a big mistake.
Can you provide a source that says that the Coptic church rejects Catholic sacraments. I have heard from many sources that they are considered valid and in the church I used to attend, this seemed to be the consensus.
I'll leave that for Fr. Peter....he is a priest in the British Orthodox Church.....he knows better. Yes you are wrong.......Fr. Peter will present sources. So you are blaming "GOD" for not "forcing" females to be in our Church?!....for some reason i think you listen to many Islamic ideas where marriage is actually a "duty"....we are not muslims, we are Orthodox Christians. Marriage is not a necessity (for 100th time)......if someone does not believe in the Church led by God then LET HIM BE!!! Jesus said, "He who does not love me, is not worthy of me".
please comment to my post here:
Matthew 10:37 NKJV
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
these are the same father and mother which GOD spoke about saying:
Ephesians 6:1-2
"Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise.
You do the math........
and Cephas clarified what i mean here:
He's saying that if you love anything or anyone more than Christ, you are not worthy of Christ.
By the way you talk and the filth you have spewing into your posts says to me that you would leave the coptic church for the protestant church because you can't eat ice cream in the fasting periods.
This made me laugh.
Anyway, I was really hoping this would be more constructive. I'll tell you what: If any of you can give me a good source stating that the Coptic synod does not recognize the sacraments of the Catholic Church, I will not leave.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=11899.msg141812#msg141812 date=1311458722]
By the way you talk and the filth you have spewing into your posts says to me that you would leave the coptic church for the protestant church because you can't eat ice cream in the fasting periods.
This made me laugh.
Anyway, I was really hoping this would be more constructive. I'll tell you what: If any of you can give me a good source stating that the Coptic synod does not recognize the sacraments of the Catholic Church, I will not leave.
Anubis, this isn't a funny matter. Yes, I might've sounded harsh but i want you to understand the severity of the decisions you are making.
If you go to google you will find sources. I will tell you a few things why we don't agree with Catholics.
Catholics believe that St. Mary was a perfect person with no sin at all, we believe that this is wrong because there is nobody without sin except Him alone. They believe that after they die they will go to a place called pergatory to repent from there sins and they will come back to Heaven, we don't believe that. We believe that after you die, there is nothing that you can do to go to Heaven or Hell, once you die it's done and now you wait for God to make His decision. The Catholic people believe that if somebody was a bad person and then he died, they could pray for him a lot and then God will change His mind about sending him to hell. We don't believe that because of the reason I wrote two sentences ago.
These are just a few of the many things you will find that we don't agree on.
[quote author=Anubis link=topic=11899.msg141814#msg141814 date=1311459038]
Anyway, I was really hoping this would be more constructive. I'll tell you what: If any of you can give me a good source stating that the Coptic synod does not recognize the sacraments of the Catholic Church, I will not leave.
My God! Such arrogance. I seem to recall every heretic that arose was just as arrogant. Quite frankly, if you do not believe the reality that the Church founded by Christ is the Orthodox Church, no one will convince you of it. There is sufficient evidence.
'If you will not hear the Truth, no one can tell it to you.'
Islam must be the right faith since God blesses it with enough females that every male can have 4 females. ;D
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11899.msg141819#msg141819 date=1311462463]
This whole discussion is ridiculous!!!!!!!
Islam must be the right faith since God blesses it with enough females that every males can have 4 females. ;D
Quoted for truth!!!!
The Ego
by Father Matta El Maskeen (Matthew the Poor) Source
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11899.msg141819#msg141819 date=1311462463]
This whole discussion is ridiculous!!!!!!!
Islam must be the right faith since God blesses it with enough females that every males can have 4 females. ;D
Quoted for truth!!!!
wow....so i wasn't the only one who got that.
Really, enjoy your single life. Really! Like seriously, just go out and have fun man, screw this marriage stuff till you find the right girl, it will happen. Go out and be yourself, keep your hobbies active, and work on your spiritual life. Work and marriage will take a lot out of you.
K man?
Don't fret
Anubis:
Really, enjoy your single life. Really! Like seriously, just go out and have fun man, screw this marriage stuff till you find the right girl, it will happen. Go out and be yourself, keep your hobbies active, and work on your spiritual life. Work and marriage will take a lot out of you.
K man?
Don't fret
I agree. Enjoy your single life Anubis!!! If you cannot enjoy being with yourself alone, i doubt someone will enjoy being alone with you either.
Some serious advice though, If you're so concerned with finding a wife, then thats a problem. As long as that is your focus, you can't make a good decision, and you won't become a Godly husband.
forget about marriage, and worry about ur spiritual life, and marriage will be dealt with on its own
Thanks for sharing some of the details of your very important struggle with marriage plans. I know that this is a challenging and mysterious struggle for most serious Coptic and Orthodox young adults. You are wise and blessed to be very cautious and critical in choosing a holy wife. I hope you have noticed that we have recently had a long discussion regarding the gut wrenching traumas that a disobedient, rebellious Coptic wife can cause to all phases of life of a serious young Coptic husband and his children. See, http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,11418.0.html. The good news is that the incidence rate of similarly rebellious divorcing young Coptic wives is still considerably lower (but increasing, without any overt traditional spiritual countermeasures) than that of any major U.S. christian denomination (most especially, the Catholics).
I gather from reading your comments on the Catholic Church, that the ultimate sources for most of your ideas are Catholics or weak, uninformed, Catholic propagandized Copts. You’ve recognized the generally unspiritual, immoral fruits from many generations of U.S. Catholics. There is very little difference between U.S. Catholic and Protestant spirituality and morality. They are proudly trying to show-off their best poses. The bare truth is much worse. Don’t get entangled in that web, especially with your children. You haven’t explained why your Coptic catechesis seems weak. Some small, remote parishes have “modern” political controversies that stiffle growth. You write well, so you may have concentrated on studies, etc. Most of the Coptic immigrants came here for easier money, not for spiritual enrichment. Generally small families are part of this formula. Therefore, fewer (and poorly catechesized) “cool, spoiled, feminist minded, American want-to-be” wife prospects. A mistake = life-long misery for you and your children. I would say that the slightest hint of feminist sympathy/ tendency is not worth the risk = Cali girls. Holy exceptions?
Who can doubt that the world is now especially spiritually unsettled, much as it appears to have been when St. Paul was advising the Corinthians against marriage. Several earlier posters also advised caution. Study 1 Cor. 7:1-40. See, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xx.html, et.seq. St. Chrysostom always reads like he wrote his homily just to me, last night. There is nothing new under the sun.
Just another caution for you to consider. The modern Chrysostom marriage book that you referenced is translated and published by known to be feminist, “orthodox” authors. Of course, they have used their subtle demonic feminist rhetorical (“lawyering”) skills to make their work seem to be authentic. Be of sober spirit, be on alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. ... . 1 Pet.5:8-11. True Orthodox Christianity seeks to worship and to live in the same manner that preserved our faith from our forefathers/ mothers, and in turn, from the Apostles. Catholicism and Protestantism always seek to change to accommodate the constant changes (advances?) in “modern” society. Orthodoxy has to always seek to understand the latest cultural fads in order to avoid their objectives, to betray our unchangeable Father God and to compromise the Orthodox servants of God.
You asked for orthodox references regarding Catholic beliefs and practices. The Coptic Diocese of the Southern U.S. has several interesting links under Questions and Answers and Resources. Try these to get started.
http://www.suscopts.org/resources/literature/orthodox-faith/difference-between-catholicism-and-orthodoxy/
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?catid=62
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?catid=63
A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that their are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
This chapter of her book is particularly disturbing: Alliance in Falsehood -- Union with Monophysites
A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that their are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
This chapter of her book is particularly disturbing: Alliance in Falsehood -- Union with Monophysites
A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that there are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's "Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition"]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
This chapter of her book is particularly disturbing: Alliance in Falsehood -- Union with Monophysites
Those mad ramblings? Come on. They're hardly coherent. ;)
Had to share this one. I found it amusing:
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Had to share this one. I found it amusing:
Cephas,
Thanks again for your precise restatement of your demonic feminist morality and theology (false self-demeaning namecalling).
Is this a humorous self-portrait in an attempt to alibi your failure to answer my earlier requests that you prove or withdraw your heterodox morality and theology confessions on this forum at:
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,11418.75.html and
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,11418.90.html?
I see a pattern, but also, as I mentioned before, more contradictions to many of your other authenticated posts. Is this a more “amusing,” unintended “freudian” admissions of your obvious factual fabrication and theological heterodoxy?
We're anxiously waiting for your complete correction, or further amplification of your beliefs and practices.
Whoever wrote that blog needs some serious education on the Oriental Church
I believe it's actually a part of a book.
Of course, I didn’t invite and don’t agree with Cephas’s unexplained and unauthenticated further misrepresentations of my personal life and beliefs. I don’t understand his insistant self-righteousness in the face of his refusal to prove or withdraw his challenged one-month old post. I’m new here, but is this how personal credibility and integrity is established? By spewing dishonest insults and graphics? That’s truly the predominate practice of all God-hating demonic -ism’s. Just the dishonest persecutions that Jesus promised us.
Anubis had repeatedly asked for explanations of many earlier general criticisms of Catholicism. He is reasonably well read in some areas, but nobody was providing him with objective help here. Copts are generally not quick to criticize other major beliefs (big bullies). I’ve heard Anba Bishoy discuss some Catholic heresies and I’ve read a Coptic pamphlet that listed major Catholic belief and practice problems. I couldn’t find any references to these, so I referred him to relevant links at the Coptic Diocese of Southern U.S. and to the ROCA/ ROCOR book on Ecumenism’s chapter on Lies of the Latins. The Southern Diocese comments are rather narrow answers to specific questions. Latin Lies describes Catholic apostacies in more depth. I read through the Lies chapter and think it makes a true and convincing case against major Catholic apostacies. Did you read the Lies of Latins chapter? What particular statements do you disagree with? I hope it helped Anubis and any other Catholic Heresy deniers that we reach.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11899.msg142209#msg142209 date=1311987203]
[quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11899.msg142182#msg142182 date=1311952679]
A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that there are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
Yes, of course, the book, Ecumenism-A Path to Perdition, which is based on the 1983 anathema of the Synod of Bishops of the ROCA/ ROCOR against ecumenism and the “branch” theory of true and acceptable conflicting Christian Church doctrines and practices, appears to be uncomfortably strict when applied to those who insist on the liberty to worship their gods in whatever manner they choose, instead of striving to obey the patriarchal precepts of true apostolic/ patristic orthodoxy. During my Orthodox formation, I received a lot of understanding from Fr. (St.) Seraphim Rose’s writings in this ROCA/ ROCOR manner, so I’m no longer puzzled by this direct manner.
“Heresy of heresies” seems to be a valid description of ecumenism, where it is shown that the more specific heresies addressed in each chapter are embraced/ tolerated, with variable enthusiasm within the general anti-patriarchal “ecumenical” spirit. Accommodation of Catholicism (or any other heterodox faith belief, feminism for example), as Anubis seems to be tempted to, is a heretical element of the heresy of ecumenism. Heresy of heresies, by definition.
Over a period of several years, I have read and reread most of the book. I believe the book’s reasoned, theological opposition to modern ecumenism’s demonic, spiritless, elitest, intellectual agenda to foment chaos and fickle secular innovation in the Apostolic Orthodox Churches of God is necessary and unequaled. What facets of the book do you consider to be disloyal to the true orthodox theology of Holy Bible and of the Holy Orthodox Fathers? What specific Holy Bible’s and Holy Fathers’ teachings is your criticism based upon? It seems to me that the book is true to all of the relevant teachings of our Holy Orthodox Church in the Chalcedonian Eastern Orthodox tradition, which I find to be helpful to all Orthodox Christians in most areas of true Orthodox theology. From this book, the author seems, to me, to be a mature, faithful, righteous Orthodox woman and a skilled and God blessed theologian. Who, in our time, would you suggest that the author doesn’t surpass in these categories? Of course the monophysite slander is a seemingly meaningless, mysterious thorn that has deflated pan-orthodox pride for 15 centuries, and is a seemingly important excuse for some sinful historical abuses by imperial Chalcedonian orthodox apologists. Of course, we non-Chalcedonians also have too many shameful abuses in our, less frequent, imperial opportunities.. I say meaningless because I find the “adversaries’” relevant beliefs to be essentially identical. If we were embracing the Greeks, Russians, Serbs, Antiochians, etc., just look at all of their scandals, immoralities and hypocracies we would have to befriend. Thank God for everything. The Russian Orthodox challenge that I mentioned concerning marriage with Russian Orthodox is the monophysite slander- which God enabled me to overcome.
I will add, since my major personal concern is the “new” epidemic of pan-orthodox, ecumenical demonic feminism that has already proven its ability to destroy Western Catholic and Protestant family life and sexual morality, that it seems to me that the Holy Bible prescribes the assistance of the teaching of a true Orthodox woman “theologian” to this fatal deficiency in current Orthodox catechesis. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored. Titus 2:3-5. The chapter entitled “Priesthood of Women” addresses ecumenism’s included heresy of demonic feminism. The 1909 vision reported in footnote {65} of this chapter concerning feminism, forewarns of the demonic feminism caused Coptic/ Orthodox family divorce and destruction we are sharing in this forum and in Coptic parishes throughout the United States. Yes, although at times the ROCA/ ROCOR methods are somewhat uncomfortable, I find acceptance or agreement and unique value with the entire book. Ecumenism’s entire program is based on demonic rebellion against God’s unchangeable patriarchal paradigm, behind dishonest, whinning feminist nagging. WCC now celebrates Gay and Lesbian “priests” and “bishops.” I think it is blessedly appropriate that ecumenism’s trashy false facade be dignantly, publically stripped bare by an obedient, holy true orthodox woman theologian, using the invincible sword of The Word of God.
Yes, I have been baptized, struggling Coptic/ Tewahedo Orthodox for 16 years. I got here from serious Irish Catholic birth/ heritege/ dissipations and through searching, serious practice and study for an authentic alternative Apostolic Christianity at U.S. Greek, Antiochian, OCA, ROCOR, Serbian, Indian, Armenian, Greek Old Calendar, Coptic, Ethiopean and Ukranian Orthodox Churches. The monophysite slander was a special challenge to my Orthodox formation. It is very difficult to righteously seek to join a community that every known christian authority seriously informs is heretical monophysite. Thankfully, my study interest coincided with the availability of the many English documents of the Chalcedonian reunion discussions. The thoughts and works of Bishop Paulos Mar Gregorios helped guide me through this theological minefield. In the end, I have concluded that, within my limitations, the essence of the true beliefs of both my Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian friends are the same. Neither had the understanding nor the ability to understandably explain their belief to me. It took me nine years to receive this understanding and preparedness for baptism. More amazingly, my final understanding of the nature of Christ’s divinity and humanity is essentially the same as I received from my rural Irish Catholic priest in 5th-6th grade cathechism.
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's "Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition"]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
This chapter of her book is particularly disturbing: Alliance in Falsehood -- Union with Monophysites
This is routine Chalcedonian rhetoric. Protecting their Imperial legislation-Seven Ecumenical Councils. We have to learn how to understandably explain our Cyrillian beliefs, in Chalcedonian historical context, so that it is understandable between us and to all other “outsiders”/ “deniers.” This slander paints us into a pretty small circle, so our misbehavior is amplified. Doesn’t this encourage our discernible general moral behavior? Thank God.
While trying to find a way to respond to your concerned questions, I came across a seemingly blessed summary of a typically insightful relevant lecture of Fr. (St.) Seraphim Rose, concerning our common challenge to live an Orthodox world-view. Anubis may also want to consider these thoughts.
Living an Orthodox World-View. Excerpt from a lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose, given near the end of his earthly life in 1982. http://www.roca.org/OA/22/22E.htm
There are two false approaches to the life around us that many Orthodox often make today. The most common one is simply to go along with the spirit of the times. Lacking a strong Orthodox example in their parents, many Orthodox young people are not even aware of the need to struggle against the universal temptation of this "narcissist" age. They readily blend in with the anti-Christian world around them. This is death to the soul. As Christians we must be different from the world, and teach our children this difference. Otherwise there is no point in calling ourselves Christians, and Orthodox Christians at that.
The false approach at the opposite extreme is what one might call false spirituality, or "super -spirituality," often taken by those who have zeal without knowledge (Rom. 10:2). As translations of Orthodox texts on spiritual life are made available, one finds an increasing number of people talking about "hesychasm," the Jesus prayer, exalted spiritual states, etc. It is wonderful to be inspired and to realize our high calling, but unless we have a very realistic and very humble awareness of how far away all-of us are from these Spiritual heights, our interest will only develop into a new game which is just another expression of our self-centered, plastic universe.
The importance of avoiding these two extremes of worldliness and super-spirituality cannot be overemphasized. This is not to say that we should not have a realistic awareness of the legitimate demands which the world makes upon us, or that we should cease respecting and taking sound instruction from the great hesychast Fathers and using the Jesus prayer ourselves, according to our circumstances and capacity. The point is that we must deeply realize what times we live in, how little we actually know our Orthodox faith and how much we must humble ourselves just to survive as Orthodox Christians today.
What Can We Do?
What can, and should, one do to avoid the above-mentioned extremes and to lead a truly fruitful life in these perilous times? Because the periods of childhood and youth are so critical to the formation of the soul, the answer to this question should be directed first of all to parents. They must be aware that the world seldom helps and almost always hinders the upbringing of a child in the true Orthodox spirit. Even what a child learns in school today is seldom free of many wrong attitudes and philosophies. Parents, therefore, have a great responsibility both to be aware of what their child is being exposed to --whether TV programs, sex education classes at school, movies, popular music--, and to educate their child in a proper Christian understanding of things. A child who is given an appreciation for good classical music, literature, history, art, even science, is at least partially inoculated against the plastic culture and its temptations.
But it is not only children-it is all of us --who are facing a life and death struggle with the anti-Christian world which is indeed "too much with us" today. One who is converted to Orthodoxy straight from "rock" culture has a difficult road to follow before he can become a truly serious Orthodox Christian. On the other hand, the person who is well-acquainted with the best products of secular culture--which in the West almost always has definite religious and Christian overtones--has a much better chance of leading a normal, fruitful Orthodox life. We must not artificially isolate ourselves from the reality of today's world; rather, we must learn to use the best things the world has to offer, for everything good in the world--if we are only wise enough to see it--points to God, and we must make use of it. Too many people make the mistake of limiting Orthodoxy to church services, set prayers, and the occasional reading of a spiritual book. True Orthodoxy, however, requires a commitment that involves every aspect of our lives. One is Orthodox all the time every day, in every situation of life--or one is not really Orthodox at all. For this reason we must develop an Orthodox world-view and live it.
Unworthy1,
Of course, I didn’t invite and don’t agree with Cephas’s unexplained and unauthenticated further misrepresentations of my personal life and beliefs. I don’t understand his insistant self-righteousness in the face of his refusal to prove or withdraw his challenged one-month old post. I’m new here, but is this how personal credibility and integrity is established? By spewing dishonest insults and graphics? That’s truly the predominate practice of all God-hating demonic -ism’s. Just the dishonest persecutions that Jesus promised us.
Anubis had repeatedly asked for explanations of many earlier general criticisms of Catholicism. He is reasonably well read in some areas, but nobody was providing him with objective help here. Copts are generally not quick to criticize other major beliefs (big bullies). I’ve heard Anba Bishoy discuss some Catholic heresies and I’ve read a Coptic pamphlet that listed major Catholic belief and practice problems. I couldn’t find any references to these, so I referred him to relevant links at the Coptic Diocese of Southern U.S. and to the ROCA/ ROCOR book on Ecumenism’s chapter on Lies of the Latins. The Southern Diocese comments are rather narrow answers to specific questions. Latin Lies describes Catholic apostacies in more depth. I read through the Lies chapter and think it makes a true and convincing case against major Catholic apostacies. Did you read the Lies of Latins chapter? What particular statements do you disagree with? I hope it helped Anubis and any other Catholic Heresy deniers that we reach.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11899.msg142209#msg142209 date=1311987203]
[quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11899.msg142182#msg142182 date=1311952679]
A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that there are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
Yes, of course, the book, Ecumenism-A Path to Perdition, which is based on the 1983 anathema of the Synod of Bishops of the ROCA/ ROCOR against ecumenism and the “branch” theory of true and acceptable conflicting Christian Church doctrines and practices, appears to be uncomfortably strict when applied to those who insist on the liberty to worship their gods in whatever manner they choose, instead of striving to obey the patriarchal precepts of true apostolic/ patristic orthodoxy. During my Orthodox formation, I received a lot of understanding from Fr. (St.) Seraphim Rose’s writings in this ROCA/ ROCOR manner, so I’m no longer puzzled by this direct manner.
“Heresy of heresies” seems to be a valid description of ecumenism, where it is shown that the more specific heresies addressed in each chapter are embraced/ tolerated, with variable enthusiasm within the general anti-patriarchal “ecumenical” spirit. Accommodation of Catholicism (or any other heterodox faith belief, feminism for example), as Anubis seems to be tempted to, is a heretical element of the heresy of ecumenism. Heresy of heresies, by definition.
Over a period of several years, I have read and reread most of the book. I believe the book’s reasoned, theological opposition to modern ecumenism’s demonic, spiritless, elitest, intellectual agenda to foment chaos and fickle secular innovation in the Apostolic Orthodox Churches of God is necessary and unequaled. What facets of the book do you consider to be disloyal to the true orthodox theology of Holy Bible and of the Holy Orthodox Fathers? What specific Holy Bible’s and Holy Fathers’ teachings is your criticism based upon? It seems to me that the book is true to all of the relevant teachings of our Holy Orthodox Church in the Chalcedonian Eastern Orthodox tradition, which I find to be helpful to all Orthodox Christians in most areas of true Orthodox theology. From this book, the author seems, to me, to be a mature, faithful, righteous Orthodox woman and a skilled and God blessed theologian. Who, in our time, would you suggest that the author doesn’t surpass in these categories? Of course the monophysite slander is a seemingly meaningless, mysterious thorn that has deflated pan-orthodox pride for 15 centuries, and is a seemingly important excuse for some sinful historical abuses by imperial Chalcedonian orthodox apologists. Of course, we non-Chalcedonians also have too many shameful abuses in our, less frequent, imperial opportunities.. I say meaningless because I find the “adversaries’” relevant beliefs to be essentially identical. If we were embracing the Greeks, Russians, Serbs, Antiochians, etc., just look at all of their scandals, immoralities and hypocracies we would have to befriend. Thank God for everything. The Russian Orthodox challenge that I mentioned concerning marriage with Russian Orthodox is the monophysite slander- which God enabled me to overcome.
I will add, since my major personal concern is the “new” epidemic of pan-orthodox, ecumenical demonic feminism that has already proven its ability to destroy Western Catholic and Protestant family life and sexual morality, that it seems to me that the Holy Bible prescribes the assistance of the teaching of a true Orthodox woman “theologian” to this fatal deficiency in current Orthodox catechesis. Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored. Titus 2:3-5. The chapter entitled “Priesthood of Women” addresses ecumenism’s included heresy of demonic feminism. The 1909 vision reported in footnote {65} of this chapter concerning feminism, forewarns of the demonic feminism caused Coptic/ Orthodox family divorce and destruction we are sharing in this forum and in Coptic parishes throughout the United States. Yes, although at times the ROCA/ ROCOR methods are somewhat uncomfortable, I find acceptance or agreement and unique value with the entire book. Ecumenism’s entire program is based on demonic rebellion against God’s unchangeable patriarchal paradigm, behind dishonest, whinning feminist nagging. WCC now celebrates Gay and Lesbian “priests” and “bishops.” I think it is blessedly appropriate that ecumenism’s trashy false facade be dignantly, publically stripped bare by an obedient, holy true orthodox woman theologian, using the invincible sword of The Word of God.
Yes, I have been baptized, struggling Coptic/ Tewahedo Orthodox for 16 years. I got here from serious Irish Catholic birth/ heritege/ dissipations and through searching, serious practice and study for an authentic alternative Apostolic Christianity at U.S. Greek, Antiochian, OCA, ROCOR, Serbian, Indian, Armenian, Greek Old Calendar, Coptic, Ethiopean and Ukranian Orthodox Churches. The monophysite slander was a special challenge to my Orthodox formation. It is very difficult to righteously seek to join a community that every known christian authority seriously informs is heretical monophysite. Thankfully, my study interest coincided with the availability of the many English documents of the Chalcedonian reunion discussions. The thoughts and works of Bishop Paulos Mar Gregorios helped guide me through this theological minefield. In the end, I have concluded that, within my limitations, the essence of the true beliefs of both my Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian friends are the same. Neither had the understanding nor the ability to understandably explain their belief to me. It took me nine years to receive this understanding and preparedness for baptism. More amazingly, my final understanding of the nature of Christ’s divinity and humanity is essentially the same as I received from my rural Irish Catholic priest in 5th-6th grade cathechism. This chapter of her book is particularly disturbing: Alliance in Falsehood -- Union with Monophysites
This is routine Chalcedonian rhetoric. Protecting their Imperial legislation-Seven Ecumenical Councils. We have to learn how to understandably explain our Cyrillian beliefs, in Chalcedonian historical context, so that it is understandable between us and to all other “outsiders”/ “deniers.” This slander paints us into a pretty small circle, so our misbehavior is amplified. Doesn’t this encourage our discernible general moral behavior? Thank God.
While trying to find a way to respond to your concerned questions, I came across a seemingly blessed summary of a typically insightful relevant lecture of Fr. (St.) Seraphim Rose, concerning our common challenge to live an Orthodox world-view. Anubis may also want to consider these thoughts.
Living an Orthodox World-View. Excerpt from a lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose, given near the end of his earthly life in 1982. http://www.roca.org/OA/22/22E.htm
There are two false approaches to the life around us that many Orthodox often make today. The most common one is simply to go along with the spirit of the times. Lacking a strong Orthodox example in their parents, many Orthodox young people are not even aware of the need to struggle against the universal temptation of this "narcissist" age. They readily blend in with the anti-Christian world around them. This is death to the soul. As Christians we must be different from the world, and teach our children this difference. Otherwise there is no point in calling ourselves Christians, and Orthodox Christians at that.
The false approach at the opposite extreme is what one might call false spirituality, or "super -spirituality," often taken by those who have zeal without knowledge (Rom. 10:2). As translations of Orthodox texts on spiritual life are made available, one finds an increasing number of people talking about "hesychasm," the Jesus prayer, exalted spiritual states, etc. It is wonderful to be inspired and to realize our high calling, but unless we have a very realistic and very humble awareness of how far away all-of us are from these Spiritual heights, our interest will only develop into a new game which is just another expression of our self-centered, plastic universe.
The importance of avoiding these two extremes of worldliness and super-spirituality cannot be overemphasized. This is not to say that we should not have a realistic awareness of the legitimate demands which the world makes upon us, or that we should cease respecting and taking sound instruction from the great hesychast Fathers and using the Jesus prayer ourselves, according to our circumstances and capacity. The point is that we must deeply realize what times we live in, how little we actually know our Orthodox faith and how much we must humble ourselves just to survive as Orthodox Christians today.
What Can We Do?
What can, and should, one do to avoid the above-mentioned extremes and to lead a truly fruitful life in these perilous times? Because the periods of childhood and youth are so critical to the formation of the soul, the answer to this question should be directed first of all to parents. They must be aware that the world seldom helps and almost always hinders the upbringing of a child in the true Orthodox spirit. Even what a child learns in school today is seldom free of many wrong attitudes and philosophies. Parents, therefore, have a great responsibility both to be aware of what their child is being exposed to --whether TV programs, sex education classes at school, movies, popular music--, and to educate their child in a proper Christian understanding of things. A child who is given an appreciation for good classical music, literature, history, art, even science, is at least partially inoculated against the plastic culture and its temptations.
But it is not only children-it is all of us --who are facing a life and death struggle with the anti-Christian world which is indeed "too much with us" today. One who is converted to Orthodoxy straight from "rock" culture has a difficult road to follow before he can become a truly serious Orthodox Christian. On the other hand, the person who is well-acquainted with the best products of secular culture--which in the West almost always has definite religious and Christian overtones--has a much better chance of leading a normal, fruitful Orthodox life. We must not artificially isolate ourselves from the reality of today's world; rather, we must learn to use the best things the world has to offer, for everything good in the world--if we are only wise enough to see it--points to God, and we must make use of it. Too many people make the mistake of limiting Orthodoxy to church services, set prayers, and the occasional reading of a spiritual book. True Orthodoxy, however, requires a commitment that involves every aspect of our lives. One is Orthodox all the time every day, in every situation of life--or one is not really Orthodox at all. For this reason we must develop an Orthodox world-view and live it.
----I HAVE TAKEN THE LIBERTY OF POSTING WHAT YOU WROTE MYSELF B/C IT HAS COME UP AS SPAM AND IS NOT SHOWING. NEXT TIME USE THE "INSERT HYPERLINK" OPTION WHEN PUTTING A LINK.----
-Unworthy1
Thank you. I would have never understood that problem. I was ready to waste today on the problem. Forgive me for starting the problem and your frustration.