Zoxsasi please as imikhail is saying, if your priest doesn't speak French, then you can help out, and your mother can serve as a spiritual guide for the youth. You understand Arabic so you can be effective in sitting down with the priest and find solutions for those problems. YOu just don't join in on your friends' complaints, as this will only lead to one thing, and you know it don't you? Alienating even the current congregation. No one is perfect. The church is only made perfect through Christ and the saints who preceded us. So please be more positive and proactive, and of course advise your friends to pray about it and you too... Oujai
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11903.msg141944#msg141944 date=1311669435] This will never happen. Again, the Coptic music does not suit the Western ear Does Coptic music suit the Coptic ear? When 95%+ of the Copts know less than 5% of our Coptic hymns, much less tolerate any hymn that is more than 2 minutes, can we actually say Coptic music suits the Coptic ear? No. Sacred Coptic music has its place. It will be preserved by the 5% of the Copts who actually learn the majority of hymns. And it will benefit those listeners who chose to experience Coptic music. But many Copts do not experience Coptic music. I honestly think that the converts to the Coptic church cherish and experience Coptic music, even though they have "a Western ear".
and the ethnic Copts will not abandon their heritage to attract new members. It is just a fact.
I think you meant "ethnic Copts should not abandon their heritage to attract new members." Every time we choose to a new Protestant-like Arabic hymn instead of a Coptic hymn, we are abandoning our heritage a little bit. It happens all the time. Every time we choose to have a social gathering, a pizza party, a fund raiser, instead of praying like Elijah or Macarius, we have abandoned our heritage a little bit. These things came about within the last 50 or 100 years. I can go on but this should suffice.
However, they cannot force their culture on others.
But they are forcing their culture by ostracizing everyone who is not Coptic. Zoxasi gave some examples. I gave some examples. There are multiple threads here on tasbeha.org discussing the Protestantization of the Coptic Church. Why does this keep coming up? Because either the Coptic culture is being enforced on Copts who disapprove of the culture or Copts are bring external cultures into the Coptic Culture. There is no social vacuum where 2 independent and relatively opposite cultures can occupy the same space without some give and take. It is the amount of giving and taking that brings a balanced equilibrium. Take for example the Amish in Pennsylvania or citizens of Old Sturbridge village in MA. Yes we can't force electricity on them, but they can't expect to live without any technology at all in the 21st century. And they have learned where to adapt and modify their culture to peaceably co-exist with the opposite culture. They have chosen to use electricity and technology in a limited conditions. I think Copts, in general, have adapted and changed spirituality and intellectualism where they shouldn't have and insisted on keeping culture where they should adapt and modify.
The ideal way is to have ethnic Churches so that people of the same culture and language can worship with one spirit. We see this happening in Africa, India, And Britain where the Copts converts have their own rites and way of worship. They share the same faith yet worship according to their own different backgrounds.
Your example doesn't apply. The converts in Africa didn't modify their culture because they still live there. They cannot bring their form of worship to Egypt and expect every native Copt to follow their form of worshipping. Secondly, if multiple Churches occupy the same space and the only difference is culture, then there is no unity. Assume Egypt had one Christian faith. The Greek Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, the Coptic Catholic, the Anglican, the Presbyterians, the Episcopolains, and the Coptic Orthodox (and any other Christian faith in Egypt that I forgot to mention) all communed with each other. What would be the point in having all these denominations? Will they still exist or will there be one Christian Church in Alexandria? If they continued to exist, then we would all be guilty of disobeying the Gospel's call for unity. The only distinction, if they continued to exist, is culture. This would mean we only want "moulokhia churches".
Does Coptic music suit the Coptic ear? When 95%+ of the Copts know less than 5% of our Coptic hymns, much less tolerate any hymn that is more than 2 minutes, can we actually say Coptic music suits the Coptic ear?
Knowledge of hymns has nothing to do with having it adopted or ingrained in other cultures. The Western rhythm is much faster than the Eastern one. For example, folklore and popular music in the East has a much slower beat than the West counterparts.
But let's say that the Coptic music is adapted in the West like the BOC, then you would not have a multicultural Church. Instead, you would still have a Coptic Church that does not open up to the culture of its congregation - the Western converts.
The aim is to have the faith without the culture. Every people has their own way of worshipping. The only thing that should be standard is the Dogma. Everything else from rites, icons, music, ... should be adapted to suit the people the Church is serving.
Every time we choose to a new Protestant-like Arabic hymn instead of a Coptic hymn, we are abandoning our heritage a little bit. It happens all the time. Every time we choose to have a social gathering, a pizza party, a fund raiser, instead of praying like Elijah or Macarius, we have abandoned our heritage a little bit. These things came about within the last 50 or 100 years. I can go on but this should suffice.
You are probably referring to a personal experience.
However, a social gathering is not abandoning the heritage but in fact is an opportunity to go back to it.
Fund raising is not abandoning the faith. St Paul himself sis raise funds for various Churches.
I do not see how a pizza party is abandoning the faith .. it depends on what goes on during that party.
But they are forcing their culture by ostracizing everyone who is not Coptic. Zoxasi gave some examples. I gave some examples.
These examples do not depict forcing anything on anybody. The situation we have with these instances is as follows:
We have a Coptic local church that serves ethnic Copts, then a new convert joins. Should the ethnic members now abandon their heritage for the sake of the convert? This is absurd. The convert should have joined with full knowledge of what s/he is getting into, should have accepted or embraced the culture before joining.
This is in contrast to establishing a church that is just serving non Copts like that in Africa. In this situation, the Coptic Church is just delivering the faith and it is up to the converts to choose what suits them in their worship. Of course, this is not an easy process but takes a lot of hand holding, guidance, leadership, .. to get to the ideal form of worship.
So I cannot sympathize with Zoksasi except that the language of service has to be that of the people being served.
The converts in Africa didn't modify their culture because they still live there. They cannot bring their form of worship to Egypt and expect every native Copt to follow their form of worshipping.
I agree but you are missing the point. There is a difference between serving indigenous Copts and serving converts (e.g. Westerners) as I explained in an earlier post.
Secondly, if multiple Churches occupy the same space and the only difference is culture, then there is no unity.
The unity is in the faith and not culture. The early Church was one faith yet had multiple cultures which reflected on music, rituals, art, ...
Assume Egypt had one Christian faith. The Greek Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, the Coptic Catholic, the Anglican, the Presbyterians, the Episcopolains, and the Coptic Orthodox (and any other Christian faith in Egypt that I forgot to mention) all communed with each other. What would be the point in having all these denominations? Will they still exist or will there be one Christian Church in Alexandria? If they continued to exist, then we would all be guilty of disobeying the Gospel's call for unity. The only distinction, if they continued to exist, is culture. This would mean we only want "moulokhia churches".
Of course they will still exist to a varying degree. For example, the Latin Catholics will probably hold on to their heritage yet have the Orthodox faith, so are the Greeks, ...
This is very evident in the Roman Church .. there are the Eastern Catholics who have different rites than the Latin and there are Coptic Catholics who have Coptic rites, ... yet they all share the same faith of the Roman Church.
The Coptic Church herself had different hymns and rites, that are still evident till today, in Egypt which reflect the local culture.
Again, culture is not evil. However, multi-faith is.
St Paul said: "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" Eph 4:5. Notice, he did not say one culture.
Mabsoota: abouna pishoy salama has an awesome church, i saw it via the net once and lots of his church servants (from all different ethnic groups) got interviewed.
A bright example indeed.
The Very reverend and holy Priest Bishoy Salama (hereafter referred to as Priest B.S. to save time and cyber ink) is a master of marketing and sales from his days as a jewellery salesman, and he uses it to his advantage as a priest. With focused marketing, sales plans and strategies, he always succeeds in selling his products to his targeted customers group, whether it is an old gold braclet or our ancient faith. His target group are the ultra rich coptic families and their lovely kids, who constitute 99 % of his church, but are intentionally not represented in the photo albums on his website and left out of his televised services. Priest B.S., the marketing wizard, wants to paint the image of an "evangelising" church for his congregation to attract newcomers, and copts have no place there. The end justifies the means.
100 % of his converts came to the church because they got in love with one of the kids who go to his church and they needed to be baptized. Priest B.S., in a loving spirit that desires salvation to all at any cost and speed, spends 1/2 an hour explaining the Faith to them before Baptism, and then baaammmmm !!! Baptism.
As a successful businessman, since his days as a jewellery merchant, he also succeeds in attracting converts from other coptic churches. He lures them with his ultra liberal policies which have, unfortunately, no place in the churches where they were taught and baptized. I am not talking about the music in his liturgies or having girls in the choir dressed as deacons. I am talking about moral and faith-related issues. I salute him for his approach, because we need to tailor the faith to suit the newcomers, even if it means to hide the faith and christian morals from them for a while until we finish taking photos with them for marketing purposes.
When Priest B.S. left St. Mark Orthodox Church, making a schism that took significant time to heal, he was very clear that he does not welcome sudanese copts to his new church. Some thought this is very harsh but he was 100 % correct. These blue-collar sudanese would certainly hurt the image of his church. Some naive people find it ironic that he portrays himself as an "apostles to the non-copts" yet he reject his own fellow believers based on class and ethnicity. Nonsense ! This amature, non-professional mentality has no place in today's market .... I mean church. You have to act as a businessman without feelings, and not a father like it used to be. We lack this in our churches, and we need to take Priest B.S. as our example.
Priest B.S., being taught by the great master, Boulos of Kenya, does not neglect the intellectual needs of his congregation. He has offered an intellectual series for his church servants and general congregation to teach them the basics of other religions. In a weekly session for six months, Priest B.S. invited some teachers of hindu, jehova witness, adventist, scientiology, protestantism of course, judaism, catholicism, shia muslims and sunni muslims religions to present their faith to the servants and newcomers. Because Priest B.S. is a businessman, he never challenged any of their claims, simply because the series was held under the banner of "Unity, love and learning from each other". Eshta ya3ni ....
When he was in St. Mark church, he invited a "priestess" from the United Church to teach the Youth Group (14-18 years) four lessons about "The Truth". Of course, at that time, and because of the ignorance and narrow-mind approach of coptic servants, they opposed this move and could not understand the greater cause of Priest B.S.. The greater cause was to open the minds of the kids on the hidden treasures in other places. We , as Copts, are tab3an narrow-minded and think Orthodoxy is the Truth. Of course it is not, it is just a tiny part of it.
If you compare his amazing marketing techniques with the approach of a neighbour coptic church of his, you will know that we need a businessman and not a father to run the church. Priest B.S. spends all his immense income on building a new Cathedral, located about 500 m away from his old church. The neighbour church are stupid enough to give 70 % of its trivial income to the poor and homeless, while being squeezed in their 40 year old church. Priest B.S. makes sure he takes a photo with each convert from all positions and sometimes posts them as different converts after a while. The neighbour church has baptized about 40 individual within the past four years since Priest B.S. left but never cared to pose them for pictures for marketing purposes.
I have a dream that all priests will be like Priest B.S., young, attractive, westernized, liberal, funny and outspoken businessmen who can guide the church into a life of Evangelism (true or false, whatever) at any cost. He will make use leave our fanaticism behind and embrace all religions as part of the truth.
I have a dream that no more old coptic priests like Pope Kyrillos VI will be ordained. Old, boring, spiritual and "too coptic". Ya333..... We need to get our church rid of useless tasbeha, hymns, liturgies and also the orthodox faith as the only truth.
I really think the straw that broke that camel's back was the fact that the priest could not speak French or Dutch for my friends.
They are fluent in 3 languages (English, French, Dutch) and the priest only speaks Arabic.
They want a spiritual guide/father/Director/FoC, the works, and they CANNOT.
I tried to lighten up the conversation with them and said that it was a blessing to confess to a priest who didn't understand a word you said - that you could confess everything... but the joke didn't work. It just made it worse.
I mean, this is not acceptable.
This fact, in itself clearly means that the Church IS interested ONLY in Egyptians. TOZ for everyone else.
This is a hurtful feeling.
What bothers me the most is that I hardly ever hear the Coptic priests i know quote ANY of our Church fathers. They all seem to be talking from their personal feelings.
I think Orthodoxy is the way forward for ANY serious Christian.
I mean, I was so involved in the RC, and even those who were catholic ended up joining the Traditionalist rites of the RC.
Concerning the hymns - I disagree 100% with iMikhail. What do you mean western hymns cannot function in the Orthodox Church? This is hogwash.
I think 1st, let's be clear - there are some western hymns that are not hymns, but rather POP songs - agreed... that is obvious. But there are Catholic hymns that were indeed taken from the Orthodox Church, that are so beautiful that sound very orthodoxy with Non-Arabic/Coptic words/lyrics.
Please do not state such nonsense unless you've actually heard A LOT of Catholic songs.
Mabsoota: abouna pishoy salama has an awesome church, i saw it via the net once and lots of his church servants (from all different ethnic groups) got interviewed.
A bright example indeed.
The Very reverend and holy Priest Bishoy Salama (hereafter referred to as Priest B.S. to save time and cyber ink) is a master of marketing and sales from his days as a jewellery salesman, and he uses it to his advantage as a priest. With focused marketing, sales plans and strategies, he always succeeds in selling his products to his targeted customers group, whether it is an old gold braclet or our ancient faith. His target group are the ultra rich coptic families and their lovely kids, who constitute 99 % of his church, but are intentionally not represented in the photo albums on his website and left out of his televised services. Priest B.S., the marketing wizard, wants to paint the image of an "evangelising" church for his congregation to attract newcomers, and copts have no place there. The end justifies the means.
100 % of his converts came to the church because they got in love with one of the kids who go to his church and they needed to be baptized. Priest B.S., in a loving spirit that desires salvation to all at any cost and speed, spends 1/2 an hour explaining the Faith to them before Baptism, and then baaammmmm !!! Baptism.
As a successful businessman, since his days as a jewellery merchant, he also succeeds in attracting converts from other coptic churches. He lures them with his ultra liberal policies which have, unfortunately, no place in the churches where they were taught and baptized. I am not talking about the music in his liturgies or having girls in the choir dressed as deacons. I am talking about moral and faith-related issues. I salute him for his approach, because we need to tailor the faith to suit the newcomers, even if it means to hide the faith and christian morals from them for a while until we finish taking photos with them for marketing purposes.
When Priest B.S. left St. Mark Orthodox Church, making a schism that took significant time to heal, he was very clear that he does not welcome sudanese copts to his new church. Some thought this is very harsh but he was 100 % correct. These blue-collar sudanese would certainly hurt the image of his church. Some naive people find it ironic that he portrays himself as an "apostles to the non-copts" yet he reject his own fellow believers based on class and ethnicity. Nonsense ! This amature, non-professional mentality has no place in today's market .... I mean church. You have to act as a businessman without feelings, and not a father like it used to be. We lack this in our churches, and we need to take Priest B.S. as our example.
Priest B.S., being taught by the great master, Boulos of Kenya, does not neglect the intellectual needs of his congregation. He has offered an intellectual series for his church servants and general congregation to teach them the basics of other religions. In a weekly session for six months, Priest B.S. invited some teachers of hindu, jehova witness, adventist, scientiology, protestantism of course, judaism, catholicism, shia muslims and sunni muslims religions to present their faith to the servants and newcomers. Because Priest B.S. is a businessman, he never challenged any of their claims, simply because the series was held under the banner of "Unity, love and learning from each other". Eshta ya3ni ....
When he was in St. Mark church, he invited a "priestess" from the United Church to teach the Youth Group (14-18 years) four lessons about "The Truth". Of course, at that time, and because of the ignorance and narrow-mind approach of coptic servants, they opposed this move and could not understand the greater cause of Priest B.S.. The greater cause was to open the minds of the kids on the hidden treasures in other places. We , as Copts, are tab3an narrow-minded and think Orthodoxy is the Truth. Of course it is not, it is just a tiny part of it.
If you compare his amazing marketing techniques with the approach of a neighbour coptic church of his, you will know that we need a businessman and not a father to run the church. Priest B.S. spends all his immense income on building a new Cathedral, located about 500 m away from his old church. The neighbour church are stupid enough to give 70 % of its trivial income to the poor and homeless, while being squeezed in their 40 year old church. Priest B.S. makes sure he takes a photo with each convert from all positions and sometimes posts them as different converts after a while. The neighbour church has baptized about 40 individual within the past four years since Priest B.S. left but never cared to pose them for pictures for marketing purposes.
I have a dream that all priests will be like Priest B.S., young, attractive, westernized, liberal, funny and outspoken businessmen who can guide the church into a life of Evangelism (true or false, whatever) at any cost. He will make use leave our fanaticism behind and embrace all religions as part of the truth.
I have a dream that no more old coptic priests like Pope Kyrillos VI will be ordained. Old, boring, spiritual and "too coptic". Ya333..... We need to get our church rid of useless tasbeha, hymns, liturgies and also the orthodox faith as the only truth.
Stavro: Why are these our only choices? I don't think anyone in this thread wants anyone to be excluded for the sake of evangelism of non-Copts. That seems like it's basically the same problem as Zoxsasi is describing, but in the opposite direction. This is my main contention with Zoxsasi's assertion that he or others shouldn't (have to) care about Egypt. Everybody should care about each other, right? That's the example of the Savior and His holy apostles.
Mikhail: I like Coptic hymns a lot, and my ears are as white as the rest of me! So I don't know what you're talking about there. I think any non-Copt attracted to the Church is probably first attracted by the beauty of the hymns and liturgy (except for me, I guess; it was translated sermons by HH that did it for me). How could it be otherwise when they probably don't know very much about the faith, or the cultures in the church? How many other things are there to make people curious in the first place? We can't all just be looking for Coptic spouses! (That's what people here have told me usually attracts white people, but I think that's stupid even if true. You can marry into a Church but not into a faith; that has to come from God and your own heart.)
Mikhail: I like Coptic hymns a lot, and my ears are as white as the rest of me! So I don't know what you're talking about there. I think any non-Copt attracted to the Church is probably first attracted by the beauty of the hymns and liturgy (except for me, I guess; it was translated sermons by HH that did it for me). How could it be otherwise when they probably don't know very much about the faith, or the cultures in the church? How many other things are there to make people curious in the first place? We can't all just be looking for Coptic spouses! (That's what people here have told me usually attracts white people, but I think that's stupid even if true. You can marry into a Church but not into a faith; that has to come from God and your own heart.)
What I am talking about is that we, as ethnic Copts, would not force our heritage onto converts. I cannot stand any other Church music except the Coptic one. I am sure that potential converts have the same attitude or at least some reservation of what music they would engage in while at Church.
People may like Orthodoxy, may like the Coptic Church but may not necessarily get emotional over her music. I do not want the Coptic heritage to be a stumbling stone in attracting new converts.
At the same time, I do not want the other cultures to interfere with my Church. I have long argued that Greek hymns recently added to our Church hymns should not have been added because they simply so not blend with the Coptic music.
So how can we solve this dilemma of attracting new converts while preserving both the Coptic heritage and allow for the converts to worship within the Orthodox faith? The ideal situation is to have "stand alone" churches that tend to the specific ethnic group that it is serving.
How could it be otherwise when they probably don't know very much about the faith, or the cultures in the church? How many other things are there to make people curious in the first place? We can't all just be looking for Coptic spouses!
Generally, people are not attracted to Orthodoxy because of music but because it is the authentic faith. Why would people specifically be attracted to the Coptic Church? Again, because of its history and place in the Orthodox faith.
Yes, there are occasions when people get attracted by the music, but we are not going to evangelize people through singing. We should evangelize our faith instead of our culture.
Mabsoota: abouna pishoy salama has an awesome church, i saw it via the net once and lots of his church servants (from all different ethnic groups) got interviewed.
A bright example indeed.
The Very reverend and holy Priest Bishoy Salama (hereafter referred to as Priest B.S. to save time and cyber ink) is a master of marketing and sales from his days as a jewellery salesman, and he uses it to his advantage as a priest. With focused marketing, sales plans and strategies, he always succeeds in selling his products to his targeted customers group, whether it is an old gold braclet or our ancient faith. His target group are the ultra rich coptic families and their lovely kids, who constitute 99 % of his church, but are intentionally not represented in the photo albums on his website and left out of his televised services. Priest B.S., the marketing wizard, wants to paint the image of an "evangelising" church for his congregation to attract newcomers, and copts have no place there. The end justifies the means.
100 % of his converts came to the church because they got in love with one of the kids who go to his church and they needed to be baptized. Priest B.S., in a loving spirit that desires salvation to all at any cost and speed, spends 1/2 an hour explaining the Faith to them before Baptism, and then baaammmmm !!! Baptism.
As a successful businessman, since his days as a jewellery merchant, he also succeeds in attracting converts from other coptic churches. He lures them with his ultra liberal policies which have, unfortunately, no place in the churches where they were taught and baptized. I am not talking about the music in his liturgies or having girls in the choir dressed as deacons. I am talking about moral and faith-related issues. I salute him for his approach, because we need to tailor the faith to suit the newcomers, even if it means to hide the faith and christian morals from them for a while until we finish taking photos with them for marketing purposes.
When Priest B.S. left St. Mark Orthodox Church, making a schism that took significant time to heal, he was very clear that he does not welcome sudanese copts to his new church. Some thought this is very harsh but he was 100 % correct. These blue-collar sudanese would certainly hurt the image of his church. Some naive people find it ironic that he portrays himself as an "apostles to the non-copts" yet he reject his own fellow believers based on class and ethnicity. Nonsense ! This amature, non-professional mentality has no place in today's market .... I mean church. You have to act as a businessman without feelings, and not a father like it used to be. We lack this in our churches, and we need to take Priest B.S. as our example.
Priest B.S., being taught by the great master, Boulos of Kenya, does not neglect the intellectual needs of his congregation. He has offered an intellectual series for his church servants and general congregation to teach them the basics of other religions. In a weekly session for six months, Priest B.S. invited some teachers of hindu, jehova witness, adventist, scientiology, protestantism of course, judaism, catholicism, shia muslims and sunni muslims religions to present their faith to the servants and newcomers. Because Priest B.S. is a businessman, he never challenged any of their claims, simply because the series was held under the banner of "Unity, love and learning from each other". Eshta ya3ni ....
When he was in St. Mark church, he invited a "priestess" from the United Church to teach the Youth Group (14-18 years) four lessons about "The Truth". Of course, at that time, and because of the ignorance and narrow-mind approach of coptic servants, they opposed this move and could not understand the greater cause of Priest B.S.. The greater cause was to open the minds of the kids on the hidden treasures in other places. We , as Copts, are tab3an narrow-minded and think Orthodoxy is the Truth. Of course it is not, it is just a tiny part of it.
If you compare his amazing marketing techniques with the approach of a neighbour coptic church of his, you will know that we need a businessman and not a father to run the church. Priest B.S. spends all his immense income on building a new Cathedral, located about 500 m away from his old church. The neighbour church are stupid enough to give 70 % of its trivial income to the poor and homeless, while being squeezed in their 40 year old church. Priest B.S. makes sure he takes a photo with each convert from all positions and sometimes posts them as different converts after a while. The neighbour church has baptized about 40 individual within the past four years since Priest B.S. left but never cared to pose them for pictures for marketing purposes.
I have a dream that all priests will be like Priest B.S., young, attractive, westernized, liberal, funny and outspoken businessmen who can guide the church into a life of Evangelism (true or false, whatever) at any cost. He will make use leave our fanaticism behind and embrace all religions as part of the truth.
I have a dream that no more old coptic priests like Pope Kyrillos VI will be ordained. Old, boring, spiritual and "too coptic". Ya333..... We need to get our church rid of useless tasbeha, hymns, liturgies and also the orthodox faith as the only truth.
imikhail, I am convinced you read only half of my posts and reply with 4-10 separate posts with questions and comments that I already addressed in my original message. Please read the entire post. I'll explain below. [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11903.msg141953#msg141953 date=1311689427]
Every time we choose to a new Protestant-like Arabic hymn instead of a Coptic hymn, we are abandoning our heritage a little bit. It happens all the time. Every time we choose to have a social gathering, a pizza party, a fund raiser, instead of praying like Elijah or Macarius, we have abandoned our heritage a little bit. These things came about within the last 50 or 100 years. I can go on but this should suffice.
You are probably referring to a personal experience.
However, a social gathering is not abandoning the heritage but in fact is an opportunity to go back to it. If you reread I said "Every time we chose to have a social gathering....instead of of praying like Elijah or Macarius, we have abandoned our heritage a little bit. I didn't say social gatherings are wrong in themselves. But experience shows a lot of people will regularly attend a social gathering in the church and neglect prayer meetings, Vespers Agpey or Midnight Psalmody. Every time someone makes a personal decision to miss or avoid a Psalmody vigil and attend a church gathering at the Olive Garden (or wherever), it is an abandonment of our heritage.
Fund raising is not abandoning the faith. St Paul himself sis raise funds for various Churches.
Again fund raising in itself is not wrong. Relying on human contribution above God's providence is wrong. I've seen some very elaborate and non-conventional fund raising because Churches are suffering. We wouldn't need to raffle a trip to Egypt if everybody paid their almsgiving freely and routinely to begin with.
I do not see how a pizza party is abandoning the faith .. it depends on what goes on during that party.
Again I'll repeat myself. There's nothing wrong with pizza. The problem occurs when people only attend services when there's food.
But they are forcing their culture by ostracizing everyone who is not Coptic. Zoxasi gave some examples. I gave some examples.
These examples do not depict forcing anything on anybody. In Zoxasi's example, a Copt told the convert that "What are you doing here?...You're not Egyptian" Granted this was a child and this incident was probably an aberration. But such verbal abuse is equivalent to pointing a gun at a convert's head and killing them because they are different. If this isn't forcing a culture on somebody, I don't know what is.
We have a Coptic local church that serves ethnic Copts, then a new convert joins. Should the ethnic members now abandon their heritage for the sake of the convert?
Yes. "To the Greek, I became Greek so that I may win the Greeks. To the Jew..." To the convert, I became a convert so that I may win converts. No convert expects you to abandon your language, your tradition or your hymns. They are going to expect to be treated like non-converts. They are going to expect a fellowship of love and community, not ostricization and contempt for being different. And if language, tradition or hymns is the only thing that makes you different, then there is no spirit of unity. Can parents say to their adopted son, "you're our son, but not really because you don't speak English"? Or "you're our son, but not really because you don't speak Coptic, like baked beans or know Pekethronos"? Where is the bond of family, the bond of fellowship, the bond of one faith and one baptism that St Paul speaks about in Galatians 5?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11903.msg141965#msg141965 date=1311702753] People may like Orthodoxy, may like the Coptic Church but may not necessarily get emotional over her music. I do not want the Coptic heritage to be a stumbling stone in attracting new converts.
Of course, of course.
At the same time, I do not want the other cultures to interfere with my Church. I have long argued that Greek hymns recently added to our Church hymns should not have been added because they simply so not blend with the Coptic music.
I think we might differ a little bit on this point, or I may be misunderstanding you a little bit about what "interference" means. I don't see other cultures interfering with the faith so long as whatever is taken in is vetted for its Orthodoxy (this would keep out Protestant/Catholic ideas) and nativized in whatever way is necessary to teach and spread the faith (this is what was done in the switch from Greek to Coptic in the Alexandrian church, no?). But I think this is definitely something that must be watched carefully by those who know the proper ways of doing things, so that we don't have situations where inappropriate things are introduced, corrupting right practice and belief in a misguided attempt to appeal to everybody (this is my grouchy ex-RC side talking!).
So how can we solve this dilemma of attracting new converts while preserving both the Coptic heritage and allow for the converts to worship within the Orthodox faith? The ideal situation is to have "stand alone" churches that tend to the specific ethnic group that it is serving.
I'm not sure that I understand your vision here. Can you add more details, please?
Generally, people are not attracted to Orthodoxy because of music but because it is the authentic faith. Why would people specifically be attracted to the Coptic Church? Again, because of its history and place in the Orthodox faith.
Yes, there are occasions when people get attracted by the music, but we are not going to evangelize people through singing. We should evangelize our faith instead of our culture.
Hope this helps
Ah, I see I need to clarify myself a bit. I don't at all mean "evangelize people through singing" (though I will say that I find the texts of Coptic hymns to be very instructive of basic beliefs for me personally; maybe I'm alone in this). I am referring to the idea that when people first come to the church and have no other knowledge of it, they are likely to be attracted to the hymns and the other sensory parts of the liturgy precisely because that is the level at which they can participate and experience the liturgy without deeper knowledge to rely on. I know that this is the case for at least some converts to Orthodoxy, because my English-speaking Eastern Orthodox friends in the OCA, Bulgarian, and Greek Orthodox churches have all told me that it was the beauty of the liturgy that initially attracted them to the church. That means the chanting, the incense, etc. Of course a mature faith must move beyond this level if a person is to actually become well-rooted in Orthodoxy and confess the apostolic faith and be accepted into the church, but I am only saying: Let's not discount the sensory experience of Orthodoxy, which includes the hymns. All of these things are important. You might in fact be shocked at how many Roman Catholics you could be receiving if they were approached in the right way, as I know many of my age group (late 20s-early 30s) and even younger who are dissatisfied with the lack of this kind of "all-encompassing" sensory experience in their church. I can dimly remember sometimes feeling that way myself as an RC. There is little to separate their worship from the average boy scout or other secular meeting, save the occasional organ or piano (which I never liked anyway; give me the daf over that any day!)
Secondly, if multiple Churches occupy the same space and the only difference is culture, then there is no unity.
The unity is in the faith and not culture. The early Church was one faith yet had multiple cultures which reflected on music, rituals, art, ... Were there 2 Antiochian churches with different cultures in Antioch in the early church? Were there 2 two Churches in Alexandria with different music, rituals and art? No. There was one church in Alexandria with one faith. All spoke Greek. There was only one church in Rome with the same faith and spoke Greek. And so on. Two different churches did not occupy the same space. What you are describing is a metropolitan church in multi-cultural city with the same faith as a different metropolitan church in a different cultural city. Even though they were different cultures, they adapted in certain ways (mainly by using Greek) so that they can all be unified in faith and culture.
Assume Egypt had one Christian faith. The Greek Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, the Coptic Catholic, the Anglican, the Presbyterians, the Episcopolains, and the Coptic Orthodox (and any other Christian faith in Egypt that I forgot to mention) all communed with each other. What would be the point in having all these denominations? Will they still exist or will there be one Christian Church in Alexandria? If they continued to exist, then we would all be guilty of disobeying the Gospel's call for unity. The only distinction, if they continued to exist, is culture. This would mean we only want "moulokhia churches".
Of course they will still exist to a varying degree. For example, the Latin Catholics will probably hold on to their heritage yet have the Orthodox faith, so are the Greeks, ...
This is very evident in the Roman Church .. there are the Eastern Catholics who have different rites than the Latin and there are Coptic Catholics who have Coptic rites, ... yet they all share the same faith of the Roman Church. Again, you're not reading what I wrote. I didn't say Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox outside of Egypt or OCA or anybody outside of Egypt. I said Coptic Catholics in Egypt with Greek Orthodox of Alexandria with Alexandrian Presbyterians, Anglicans and so on. If they all had identical faith and doctrine, why would there be all these churches in the same city? Culture? They are all from Egypt. They all have the same culture by and large with minor differences. They only reason they would continue to exist is because some one doesn't have the spirit of unity and wants these minor differences to separate them. The only other reason would be someone's ego won't let him/her submit to their brother or sister church - which is also against the spirit of unity.
i've really learnt a lot from reading ur posts and am very grateful that you have shared ur thoughts. i am so glad that this problem is on your minds too, as i too know of people who have moved further+further away from the church to my deep sorrow. some coptic youth who live in the diaspora and a friend who came close to the church but found it hard to stay.
i do not know the solution to this problem..+it worries me to see our church lose souls like this. a priest once came to my church on a visit to give us a talk about service, he told the congregation that the services should be in the language of the country, he said the youth are the future of the church and we have to be careful not to lose them.. he said the adults have lived many yrs in the church hearing the liturgies+sermons+hymns in a language they understand but at the moment many of our children have not.. (i cant remember his exact words but this is as close to them as i remember)
i personally feel that he is right, things should be in the language of the country we are in. This is a sacrifice for those who were brought up in Egypt and love to hear the hymns in arabic, their mother tongue.. but it is possible to have several services in different languages.. one in English, one is Arabic (i guess both with bits of Coptic in) and for people who really love Coptic perhaps one in Coptic. Also, mixed Liturgies regularly, to keep the church united. if we love our children+the country we are now in+the people in this country then it is so important we have Liturgies in the language of the country we are in.
i think it is difficult for someone from a different culture to join a church which is mainly all one nationality.. i underestimated this until this wknd. being away from home, i found the closest orthodox church to me to be a Syrian Orthodox Church. i thought ooh i've never bn to one before this should be nice (+perhaps they will think im just Syrian +i'll understand it if they have some of the Liturgy in arabic) when i arrived i realised it was all Indian, the women were wearing beautiful saries and the service was in a language i did not understand.. i wanted to talk to the priest to explain my presence, tell him im Coptic+ask if i cud stay for communion, but the mass started+i did not get the chance.. so i stayed for a little while but not the whole Liturgy as i had initially intended.
my ideas: attending a service in a language u dont understand is difficult. being the only person from a different nationality in a church where everyone is the same nationality is difficult. not knowing anyone in a church is difficult.
Therefore, :) try and make things easier, try+speak the same language .. if it is currently not possible then pray about it, ask Abouna if he can do the sermon/liturgy/Biblestudy in English, ask him if he can give u a copy of his sermon+u will translate it+turn it into a handout or powerpoint, thank him when he speaks in the language u understand, buy translated books, put up a projecter, ask someone who speaks both languages to sit in a corner and translate, but above all be welcoming and show love! new people in our churches from new places are blessings that enrich our community, we should treasure them. if i have one close friend with me, pretty much anywhere then i usually feel ok and gain confidence, be the new person’s friend, be the person they know they can sit next to or talk to after the Liturgy. Christ said 'they will know u are my disciples by ur love', so love deeply. genuine love and acceptance from a kind+warm heart is difficult to resist and overcomes many barriers. If we cannot speak words of love because of language barriers we need to make our actions speak.
i think even a few people like this in a church can make a huge difference.. so if u do not hav a service in the church yet, mayb u cud be the one that smiles at new people, or says ‘hello i haven’t seen u before at our church, i am so happy to see a new face.. u are very welcome here. My name is ... ’
as i write this i am painfully aware, that i have neglected to understand how difficult it is for new people in the past and how i did not understand how difficult it is for some people to sit thru the Liturgy in a language they do not understand. This is so important. i have taken too lightly these complaints that others have had and i think that this may b why some of those who no longer come do not come. like i said i do not kno how to make this better.
i pray that Christ may give us wisdom, a deep love for each other and help guide+protect His precious church through all the challenges that it faces
Secondly, if multiple Churches occupy the same space and the only difference is culture, then there is no unity.
The unity is in the faith and not culture. The early Church was one faith yet had multiple cultures which reflected on music, rituals, art, ... Were there 2 Antiochian churches with different cultures in Antioch in the early church? Were there 2 two Churches in Alexandria with different music, rituals and art? No. There was one church in Alexandria with one faith. All spoke Greek. There was only one church in Rome with the same faith and spoke Greek. And so on. Two different churches did not occupy the same space. What you are describing is a metropolitan church in multi-cultural city with the same faith as a different metropolitan church in a different cultural city. Even though they were different cultures, they adapted in certain ways (mainly by using Greek) so that they can all be unified in faith and culture.
Assume Egypt had one Christian faith. The Greek Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, the Coptic Catholic, the Anglican, the Presbyterians, the Episcopolains, and the Coptic Orthodox (and any other Christian faith in Egypt that I forgot to mention) all communed with each other. What would be the point in having all these denominations? Will they still exist or will there be one Christian Church in Alexandria? If they continued to exist, then we would all be guilty of disobeying the Gospel's call for unity. The only distinction, if they continued to exist, is culture. This would mean we only want "moulokhia churches".
Of course they will still exist to a varying degree. For example, the Latin Catholics will probably hold on to their heritage yet have the Orthodox faith, so are the Greeks, ...
This is very evident in the Roman Church .. there are the Eastern Catholics who have different rites than the Latin and there are Coptic Catholics who have Coptic rites, ... yet they all share the same faith of the Roman Church. Again, you're not reading what I wrote. I didn't say Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox outside of Egypt or OCA or anybody outside of Egypt. I said Coptic Catholics in Egypt with Greek Orthodox of Alexandria with Alexandrian Presbyterians, Anglicans and so on. If they all had identical faith and doctrine, why would there be all these churches in the same city? Culture? They are all from Egypt. They all have the same culture by and large with minor differences. They only reason they would continue to exist is because some one doesn't have the spirit of unity and wants these minor differences to separate them. The only other reason would be someone's ego won't let him/her submit to their brother or sister church - which is also against the spirit of unity.
Reminkimi
I read your posts very well and I understand exactly what you are trying to convert. It seems to me you do not know much about Church history and probably have not grown up in Egypt.
Church history shows that there were one faith that encompass different cultures even within the same local Church. Yes, Copts in different parts of Egypt had different rituals and different hymns yet they belonged to the Church of Alexandria.
Catholics in Egypt have different groups. There are those who follow the Latin rite and are called Roman Catholics. And there are those who follow Coptic rite and they are called Coptic Catholics. Yes, both groups are in Egypt and yet belong to the same Roman See. These cultural divisions co exist in the same Church and in the same locality. They are not only in Egypt but are found in many different countries including the US.
The Coptic Church had not reached that point because it has not existed outside Egypt for so long but eventually it will. The BOC is an example so is Ethipia, Erirea and the other African Churches that belong to the Coptic Church (or used to) yet their culture influence the way they worship.
The Church MUST accommodate cultural differences otherwise worship would be meaningless.
Yes. "To the Greek, I became Greek so that I may win the Greeks. To the Jew..." To the convert, I became a convert so that I may win converts. No convert expects you to abandon your language, your tradition or your hymns. They are going to expect to be treated like non-converts. They are going to expect a fellowship of love and community, not ostricization and contempt for being different. And if language, tradition or hymns is the only thing that makes you different, then there is no spirit of unity. Can parents say to their adopted son, "you're our son, but not really because you don't speak English"? Or "you're our son, but not really because you don't speak Coptic, like baked beans or know Pekethronos"? Where is the bond of family, the bond of fellowship, the bond of one faith and one baptism that St Paul speaks about in Galatians 5?
This is exactly what I am talking about. The Church accommodates cultural differences by establishing local churches that can reach out to the different ethnic groups. Let's take the Ethiopian Church as an example. The Coptic Church did not force its culture on the locals but just delivered the faith.
The BOC is another example, the members follow the faith but they have their own culture.
If we really want to be serious about evangelism, we must not force our heritage onto others and we must not abandon it for the sake of others. In the first case, people in general will not feel comfortable or welcome if we tell them that they must use our music, art, rites, prayers, .... In the second case, if we abandon our heritage then we have no base to stand on because our heritage was formed through faith and through our heritage we defend the faith.
In Zoxasi's example, a Copt told the convert that "What are you doing here?...You're not Egyptian" Granted this was a child and this incident was probably an aberration. But such verbal abuse is equivalent to pointing a gun at a convert's head and killing them because they are different. If this isn't forcing a culture on somebody, I don't know what is.
That is why converts should have their own churches that tend to them.
Culture is a very powerful part of who we are and must be taken into account when reaching out to others. Ethnic Copts or any other ethnic group for that matter will not abandon its heritage for others. It is a fact and the God acknowledges these differences through the different ways He accepts our worship.
You said that the Church should accommodate cultural differences. Well bro, its not.
Perhaps in Africa it is, but in Europe its not.
What does it mean to accept the cultural differences?
Well, does the COC in the UK have British hymns, written and sung in the British language? Is this what you are talking about? Or are you talking about serving baked-beans on toast during the fasting period (which is a very British food)?
In Africa, in some parts, women don't wear anything to cover their breasts - its normal for them. I assume that if we accept the cultural differences, then this should also be allowed in Church?? I mean, in Africa, a woman's Sunday Best Clothing would be a skirt, and neckless with her breast showing. If you ask women in Africa to come to Church wearing their most respectable clothes, then that would be considered their "sunday best".
In some parts of Africa, tribal dances are also common as a way of celebrating some specific event. I assume that you mean that we should accept such things in our Church also?
In the UK, we've accepted protestantism. One cultural aspect of the British is indeed they are tolerant, and are a very open society. The more tolerant they are, the more British they feel. Its a cultural aspect to be someone tolerant. The Coptic Orthodox Church has unwittingly adopted this cultural aspect and allowed its youth to attend protestant prayer meetings. The COC youth come back to the Church and teach these protestant hymns to other Coptic youth during the Friday youth meetings, and in fact, you can hear this garbage in most prayer meetings/youth events the Church runs.
The ONLY cultural aspect that should be employed is that of the language. If priests cannot speak the language of any host country, they shouldn't be allowed to serve in that Country - or - they COULD serve, but not alone. They'd need to work hard on their language skills.
So - let's get this straight -
Let's say that the Church baptizes 100 kenyans. These Kenyans pray and worship in the Coptic Church in Kenya through their own cultural expressions (Clapping/Dancing/Jumping/Eccentric Hand movements and playing the Tamtam).
Great. We've baptised 100 kenyans who are now Coptic Orthodox.
Let's say these Kenyans (100 of them) all immigrate to Belgium. That's a huge Coptic/Kenyan community now.
The priest, in Leuven, already prays a liturgy in French once a month for the French speaking congregation, on a Tuesday (the 1st Tuesday of the month).
Now this priest sees that there is a need to pray in Swahili. He says to the Kenyan deacons : "Look, I will give you a liturgy in Swahili - where you can sing the hymns in Swahili, but I will pray in Arabic or English".
Do you think if these Kenyans start clapping and dancing in a Coptic Church in Belgium (once a month) that it would be edifying for the Church??
I don't think so.
I would be thinking this, as the priest:
"Listen, with ALL DUE RESPECT to your Swahili language, and culture, you are all now in Belgium. In this country, we don't speak Swahili, Arabic, English.. we speak Flemish and French. If you plan to live here from now on, I suggest you learn either French/Flemish, and you can pray with us".
But alas, this is not the case.
By systematically refusing to adopt hymns in Flemish/French and to STICK to Arabic in the liturgy (in BELGIUM!) - what sort of signals are you giving the people? What sort of image are you giving the Belgian people about your Church and your faith?
a) you are showing a HUGE lack of respect for the culture of the host Country that you are in b) you are telling the Egyptians there that there is no need to integrate in a country. c) you are telling ANYONE belge walking in the Church that - THEY ARE NOT a priority. This Church, this liturgy, this service is mainly for EGYPTIANS.
amazing.
See, I always thought my faith was above language/culture barriers.
I think Coptic hymns are great, but for a Coptic Congregation. Our Congregation is NOT Coptic.. they are Arabs or Egyptians. NONE OF THEM understand Coptic.
The worst part is that none of them even understand French/Flemish either.
DEar Zoxsasi, You aren't getting imikhail's point. If those Kenyans pray in the Coptic church they would follow the Coptic liturgy, otherwise form their own church of kenyan orthodox church. Simple as. But for the Coptic church to adopt African traditions in Africa, European ones in Europe, American ones in America, then that's the molokheya that Remenkimi talks about (although not in the same sense). Many people don't mind the molokheya in the Coptic church anyway. That's sad... Oujai
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11903.msg142001#msg142001 date=1311749781] DEar Zoxsasi, You aren't getting imikhail's point. If those Kenyans pray in the Coptic church they would follow the Coptic liturgy, otherwise form their own church of kenyan orthodox church. Simple as. And imikhaiil is wrong. If Kenyans in Britain or the US form their own church when there is already an Orthodox Church, then we are no different than Martin Luther and other Protestants who started the Protestant Reformation. I know Luther and others were also protesting Catholic dogma, but the much of the Protestant Reformation also dealt with cultural practices mixed with wrong theology (indulgences). If Christians with the same faith begin forming churches solely based on culture, what will end up with? Will there be a Kenya British Orthodox right next door to the South African Orthodox Church, next door to the Coptic Orthodox Church, next door to British Orthodox Church, next door to the New York Orthodox Church in Britain, next door to the Little-people Orthodox church of Britain, next door to the Orthodox Church for the Obese? All exist because each one doesn't like the other church's moulokhia? Why can't we figure out how to form a new identity based on everyone's culture, not one specific culture?
This is not how it was in Egypt. Up until recent, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria had a significant number of Syrians and Armenians population living and communing the Coptic Church. Why didn't they start their own Syrian Orthodox Church in Alexandria or the Armenian Orthodox Church in Alexandria? Yet, they maintained their own customs and culture and integrated it into the Coptic Church. For example, Youhanna al-Armani is one of the most famous 14th century Armenian iconographers of Coptic icons found in many churches and monasteries in Egypt.
But for the Coptic church to adopt African traditions in Africa, European ones in Europe, American ones in America, then that's the molokheya that Remenkimi talks about (although not in the same sense). Many people don't mind the molokheya in the Coptic church anyway. That's sad... Oujai Follow my example here for a moment. A problem starts when the Upper Egyptians add so and so spices into their moulokhia that the Alexandrians refuse to eat from. And so the Alexandrians call all food that is made from Upper Egypt as Sa'ede. Sa'ede becomes a euphemism for bad food and eventually bad people. The better approach is for Alexandrians to try Sa'ede moulokhia. If they keep an open mind, they will like Sa'ede moulokhia and eventually make Alexandrian moulokhia with Sa'ede spices.
No culture lives in a vacuum. Everyone who comes in contact with another culture incorporates the other culture into the other in some small form. Eventually a new multi-cultural identity is created. Nothing is replaced. The problem occurs when we want foreigners to stay as foreigners.
And imikhaiil is wrong. If Kenyans in Britain or the US form their own church when there is already an Orthodox Church, then we are no different than Martin Luther and other Protestants who started the Protestant Reformation.
The premise is that an ethnic group will form its own Church on their own. This is not what I am saying and you are not following my logic.
The Kenyans will form their own Church because they have a Kenyan Church that received its faith from the Coptic Church just as the Ethiopian Church did.
We as Copts need to do in the West what we have been doing in Africa. Deliver the Orthodox faith to the West and leave the Western Culture intact (not as Zokzasis suggested) just like the BOC.
We cannot integrate Western music, art, ... into the Coptic Church. This will create a conflict of culture just as Zoksasi is experiencing
We also cannot abandon the Coptic heritage for the sake of the converts. We only deliver the faith just as the apostles did. St. Mark did not bring his Jewish tradition with him to Egypt, he used what was already there and mold it into the Christian faith.
If Christians with the same faith begin forming churches solely based on culture, what will end up with? Will there be a Kenya British Orthodox right next door to the South African Orthodox Church, next door to the Coptic Orthodox Church, next door to British Orthodox Church, next door to the New York Orthodox Church in Britain, next door to the Little-people Orthodox church of Britain, next door to the Orthodox Church for the Obese? All exist because each one doesn't like the other church's moulokhia? Why can't we figure out how to form a new identity based on everyone's culture, not one specific culture?
This is how the Church began, exists today, and will be in the future.
We cannot create one identity, one culture for all the different ethnicities. This will take place in heaven ensha' allah.
Anyway, regardless - the straw that broke the camel's back was truly the fact that the priest cannot speak the language of non Egyptians in the country where he is.
It speaks volumes.
a) it means that those attending the COC who want to leave because of this REALLY care about their spiritual lives. They would not be interested in leaving if they were there just for the social life.
b) it means that the belge who are there - who have not complained, either speak arabic FLUENTLY (which is not true), or who are not interested in having an FoC nor a Spiritual Guide.
I find that b) is the most dangerous situation. Those who are leaving the COC are indeed looking into other Orthodox Churches. I will not lie. I just used the RC as an example of how a Church should be with respect to cultural practices. But these youth are SO orthodox, they want to remain Orthodox, and just find a place where they can benefit from the fullness of the Orthodox faith whilst being Non-Egyptian.
Situation b) is awful.. it means that there are people not living the fullness of the Orthodox faith. How can they be confessing to a priest who does not understand them??? What is this??!
I suppose there is a rather successful parallel to this situation in the Orthodox Church in America (Russian Orthodoxy's "missionary church" to Americans). I don't know if any of you have ever been to an OCA church, but while it is very much "American", it doesn't really do any of the things that Mikhail seems to think supports the founding of a new church (forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you again here, Mikhail. I really am trying!). There is no Western art or music there. It is solidly Byzantine. It exists to provide an entry into traditional Eastern Orthodox/Byzantine Christianity for Americans, so that they do not have to conform to the Russian, Greek, Romanian, Arab, etc. culture. But there are still of course strict norms that are kept to in their theology and practice. They don't sing gospel hymns or whatever, even if those are arguable more a part of American culture than Byzantine hymns are.
I was going to write "I don't see why the Coptic Church can't be like that", but honestly I think it already is. Maybe not in every case (ex. Zoxsasi's situation), but I firmly believe it is entirely possible to be Orthodox and French, American, English, Eskimo, whatever. You could form a "American Coptic Orthodox Church", sure, but most likely the only thing that would be different is the language and some of the food served at social events. And with so many churches in the USA and Canada already having services partially/entirely in English, I am not sure how much of a need there is across the board to fix things. Or, rather, the way to fix things is to train priests to speak the national language before you send them to a new country (or set up some way for them to learn in the field), and this does not at all require the founding of an entirely new national church for every country.
I meant a church full of Americans, primarily not of Egyptian heritage, worshiping according to the norms established by the Coptic Orthodox Church. Call it whatever you want. That's not the important part of the post.
Comments
Oujai
This will never happen. Again, the Coptic music does not suit the Western ear
Does Coptic music suit the Coptic ear? When 95%+ of the Copts know less than 5% of our Coptic hymns, much less tolerate any hymn that is more than 2 minutes, can we actually say Coptic music suits the Coptic ear? No. Sacred Coptic music has its place. It will be preserved by the 5% of the Copts who actually learn the majority of hymns. And it will benefit those listeners who chose to experience Coptic music. But many Copts do not experience Coptic music. I honestly think that the converts to the Coptic church cherish and experience Coptic music, even though they have "a Western ear". I think you meant "ethnic Copts should not abandon their heritage to attract new members." Every time we choose to a new Protestant-like Arabic hymn instead of a Coptic hymn, we are abandoning our heritage a little bit. It happens all the time. Every time we choose to have a social gathering, a pizza party, a fund raiser, instead of praying like Elijah or Macarius, we have abandoned our heritage a little bit. These things came about within the last 50 or 100 years. I can go on but this should suffice. But they are forcing their culture by ostracizing everyone who is not Coptic. Zoxasi gave some examples. I gave some examples. There are multiple threads here on tasbeha.org discussing the Protestantization of the Coptic Church. Why does this keep coming up? Because either the Coptic culture is being enforced on Copts who disapprove of the culture or Copts are bring external cultures into the Coptic Culture. There is no social vacuum where 2 independent and relatively opposite cultures can occupy the same space without some give and take. It is the amount of giving and taking that brings a balanced equilibrium. Take for example the Amish in Pennsylvania or citizens of Old Sturbridge village in MA. Yes we can't force electricity on them, but they can't expect to live without any technology at all in the 21st century. And they have learned where to adapt and modify their culture to peaceably co-exist with the opposite culture. They have chosen to use electricity and technology in a limited conditions. I think Copts, in general, have adapted and changed spirituality and intellectualism where they shouldn't have and insisted on keeping culture where they should adapt and modify. Your example doesn't apply. The converts in Africa didn't modify their culture because they still live there. They cannot bring their form of worship to Egypt and expect every native Copt to follow their form of worshipping. Secondly, if multiple Churches occupy the same space and the only difference is culture, then there is no unity. Assume Egypt had one Christian faith. The Greek Catholic, the Greek Orthodox, the Coptic Catholic, the Anglican, the Presbyterians, the Episcopolains, and the Coptic Orthodox (and any other Christian faith in Egypt that I forgot to mention) all communed with each other. What would be the point in having all these denominations? Will they still exist or will there be one Christian Church in Alexandria? If they continued to exist, then we would all be guilty of disobeying the Gospel's call for unity. The only distinction, if they continued to exist, is culture. This would mean we only want "moulokhia churches".
But let's say that the Coptic music is adapted in the West like the BOC, then you would not have a multicultural Church. Instead, you would still have a Coptic Church that does not open up to the culture of its congregation - the Western converts.
The aim is to have the faith without the culture. Every people has their own way of worshipping. The only thing that should be standard is the Dogma. Everything else from rites, icons, music, ... should be adapted to suit the people the Church is serving.
However, a social gathering is not abandoning the heritage but in fact is an opportunity to go back to it.
Fund raising is not abandoning the faith. St Paul himself sis raise funds for various Churches.
I do not see how a pizza party is abandoning the faith .. it depends on what goes on during that party.
We have a Coptic local church that serves ethnic Copts, then a new convert joins. Should the ethnic members now abandon their heritage for the sake of the convert? This is absurd. The convert should have joined with full knowledge of what s/he is getting into, should have accepted or embraced the culture before joining.
This is in contrast to establishing a church that is just serving non Copts like that in Africa. In this situation, the Coptic Church is just delivering the faith and it is up to the converts to choose what suits them in their worship. Of course, this is not an easy process but takes a lot of hand holding, guidance, leadership, .. to get to the ideal form of worship.
So I cannot sympathize with Zoksasi except that the language of service has to be that of the people being served.
The unity is in the faith and not culture. The early Church was one faith yet had multiple cultures which reflected on music, rituals, art, ... Of course they will still exist to a varying degree. For example, the Latin Catholics will probably hold on to their heritage yet have the Orthodox faith, so are the Greeks, ...
This is very evident in the Roman Church .. there are the Eastern Catholics who have different rites than the Latin and there are Coptic Catholics who have Coptic rites, ... yet they all share the same faith of the Roman Church.
The Coptic Church herself had different hymns and rites, that are still evident till today, in Egypt which reflect the local culture.
Again, culture is not evil. However, multi-faith is.
St Paul said: "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" Eph 4:5. Notice, he did not say one culture.
The Very reverend and holy Priest Bishoy Salama (hereafter referred to as Priest B.S. to save time and cyber ink) is a master of marketing and sales from his days as a jewellery salesman, and he uses it to his advantage as a priest. With focused marketing, sales plans and strategies, he always succeeds in selling his products to his targeted customers group, whether it is an old gold braclet or our ancient faith. His target group are the ultra rich coptic families and their lovely kids, who constitute 99 % of his church, but are intentionally not represented in the photo albums on his website and left out of his televised services. Priest B.S., the marketing wizard, wants to paint the image of an "evangelising" church for his congregation to attract newcomers, and copts have no place there. The end justifies the means.
100 % of his converts came to the church because they got in love with one of the kids who go to his church and they needed to be baptized. Priest B.S., in a loving spirit that desires salvation to all at any cost and speed, spends 1/2 an hour explaining the Faith to them before Baptism, and then baaammmmm !!! Baptism.
As a successful businessman, since his days as a jewellery merchant, he also succeeds in attracting converts from other coptic churches. He lures them with his ultra liberal policies which have, unfortunately, no place in the churches where they were taught and baptized. I am not talking about the music in his liturgies or having girls in the choir dressed as deacons. I am talking about moral and faith-related issues. I salute him for his approach, because we need to tailor the faith to suit the newcomers, even if it means to hide the faith and christian morals from them for a while until we finish taking photos with them for marketing purposes.
When Priest B.S. left St. Mark Orthodox Church, making a schism that took significant time to heal, he was very clear that he does not welcome sudanese copts to his new church. Some thought this is very harsh but he was 100 % correct. These blue-collar sudanese would certainly hurt the image of his church. Some naive people find it ironic that he portrays himself as an "apostles to the non-copts" yet he reject his own fellow believers based on class and ethnicity. Nonsense ! This amature, non-professional mentality has no place in today's market .... I mean church. You have to act as a businessman without feelings, and not a father like it used to be. We lack this in our churches, and we need to take Priest B.S. as our example.
Priest B.S., being taught by the great master, Boulos of Kenya, does not neglect the intellectual needs of his congregation. He has offered an intellectual series for his church servants and general congregation to teach them the basics of other religions. In a weekly session for six months, Priest B.S. invited some teachers of hindu, jehova witness, adventist, scientiology, protestantism of course, judaism, catholicism, shia muslims and sunni muslims religions to present their faith to the servants and newcomers. Because Priest B.S. is a businessman, he never challenged any of their claims, simply because the series was held under the banner of "Unity, love and learning from each other". Eshta ya3ni ....
When he was in St. Mark church, he invited a "priestess" from the United Church to teach the Youth Group (14-18 years) four lessons about "The Truth". Of course, at that time, and because of the ignorance and narrow-mind approach of coptic servants, they opposed this move and could not understand the greater cause of Priest B.S.. The greater cause was to open the minds of the kids on the hidden treasures in other places. We , as Copts, are tab3an narrow-minded and think Orthodoxy is the Truth. Of course it is not, it is just a tiny part of it.
If you compare his amazing marketing techniques with the approach of a neighbour coptic church of his, you will know that we need a businessman and not a father to run the church. Priest B.S. spends all his immense income on building a new Cathedral, located about 500 m away from his old church. The neighbour church are stupid enough to give 70 % of its trivial income to the poor and homeless, while being squeezed in their 40 year old church. Priest B.S. makes sure he takes a photo with each convert from all positions and sometimes posts them as different converts after a while. The neighbour church has baptized about 40 individual within the past four years since Priest B.S. left but never cared to pose them for pictures for marketing purposes.
I have a dream that all priests will be like Priest B.S., young, attractive, westernized, liberal, funny and outspoken businessmen who can guide the church into a life of Evangelism (true or false, whatever) at any cost. He will make use leave our fanaticism behind and embrace all religions as part of the truth.
I have a dream that no more old coptic priests like Pope Kyrillos VI will be ordained. Old, boring, spiritual and "too coptic". Ya333..... We need to get our church rid of useless tasbeha, hymns, liturgies and also the orthodox faith as the only truth.
They are fluent in 3 languages (English, French, Dutch) and the priest only speaks Arabic.
They want a spiritual guide/father/Director/FoC, the works, and they CANNOT.
I tried to lighten up the conversation with them and said that it was a blessing to confess to a priest who didn't understand a word you said - that you could confess everything... but the joke didn't work. It just made it worse.
I mean, this is not acceptable.
This fact, in itself clearly means that the Church IS interested ONLY in Egyptians. TOZ for everyone else.
This is a hurtful feeling.
What bothers me the most is that I hardly ever hear the Coptic priests i know quote ANY of our Church fathers. They all seem to be talking from their personal feelings.
I think Orthodoxy is the way forward for ANY serious Christian.
I mean, I was so involved in the RC, and even those who were catholic ended up joining the Traditionalist rites of the RC.
Concerning the hymns - I disagree 100% with iMikhail. What do you mean western hymns cannot function in the Orthodox Church? This is hogwash.
I think 1st, let's be clear - there are some western hymns that are not hymns, but rather POP songs - agreed... that is obvious. But there are Catholic hymns that were indeed taken from the Orthodox Church, that are so beautiful that sound very orthodoxy with Non-Arabic/Coptic words/lyrics.
Please do not state such nonsense unless you've actually heard A LOT of Catholic songs.
The Very reverend and holy Priest Bishoy Salama (hereafter referred to as Priest B.S. to save time and cyber ink) is a master of marketing and sales from his days as a jewellery salesman, and he uses it to his advantage as a priest. With focused marketing, sales plans and strategies, he always succeeds in selling his products to his targeted customers group, whether it is an old gold braclet or our ancient faith. His target group are the ultra rich coptic families and their lovely kids, who constitute 99 % of his church, but are intentionally not represented in the photo albums on his website and left out of his televised services. Priest B.S., the marketing wizard, wants to paint the image of an "evangelising" church for his congregation to attract newcomers, and copts have no place there. The end justifies the means.
100 % of his converts came to the church because they got in love with one of the kids who go to his church and they needed to be baptized. Priest B.S., in a loving spirit that desires salvation to all at any cost and speed, spends 1/2 an hour explaining the Faith to them before Baptism, and then baaammmmm !!! Baptism.
As a successful businessman, since his days as a jewellery merchant, he also succeeds in attracting converts from other coptic churches. He lures them with his ultra liberal policies which have, unfortunately, no place in the churches where they were taught and baptized. I am not talking about the music in his liturgies or having girls in the choir dressed as deacons. I am talking about moral and faith-related issues. I salute him for his approach, because we need to tailor the faith to suit the newcomers, even if it means to hide the faith and christian morals from them for a while until we finish taking photos with them for marketing purposes.
When Priest B.S. left St. Mark Orthodox Church, making a schism that took significant time to heal, he was very clear that he does not welcome sudanese copts to his new church. Some thought this is very harsh but he was 100 % correct. These blue-collar sudanese would certainly hurt the image of his church. Some naive people find it ironic that he portrays himself as an "apostles to the non-copts" yet he reject his own fellow believers based on class and ethnicity. Nonsense ! This amature, non-professional mentality has no place in today's market .... I mean church. You have to act as a businessman without feelings, and not a father like it used to be. We lack this in our churches, and we need to take Priest B.S. as our example.
Priest B.S., being taught by the great master, Boulos of Kenya, does not neglect the intellectual needs of his congregation. He has offered an intellectual series for his church servants and general congregation to teach them the basics of other religions. In a weekly session for six months, Priest B.S. invited some teachers of hindu, jehova witness, adventist, scientiology, protestantism of course, judaism, catholicism, shia muslims and sunni muslims religions to present their faith to the servants and newcomers. Because Priest B.S. is a businessman, he never challenged any of their claims, simply because the series was held under the banner of "Unity, love and learning from each other". Eshta ya3ni ....
When he was in St. Mark church, he invited a "priestess" from the United Church to teach the Youth Group (14-18 years) four lessons about "The Truth". Of course, at that time, and because of the ignorance and narrow-mind approach of coptic servants, they opposed this move and could not understand the greater cause of Priest B.S.. The greater cause was to open the minds of the kids on the hidden treasures in other places. We , as Copts, are tab3an narrow-minded and think Orthodoxy is the Truth. Of course it is not, it is just a tiny part of it.
If you compare his amazing marketing techniques with the approach of a neighbour coptic church of his, you will know that we need a businessman and not a father to run the church. Priest B.S. spends all his immense income on building a new Cathedral, located about 500 m away from his old church. The neighbour church are stupid enough to give 70 % of its trivial income to the poor and homeless, while being squeezed in their 40 year old church. Priest B.S. makes sure he takes a photo with each convert from all positions and sometimes posts them as different converts after a while. The neighbour church has baptized about 40 individual within the past four years since Priest B.S. left but never cared to pose them for pictures for marketing purposes.
I have a dream that all priests will be like Priest B.S., young, attractive, westernized, liberal, funny and outspoken businessmen who can guide the church into a life of Evangelism (true or false, whatever) at any cost. He will make use leave our fanaticism behind and embrace all religions as part of the truth.
I have a dream that no more old coptic priests like Pope Kyrillos VI will be ordained. Old, boring, spiritual and "too coptic". Ya333..... We need to get our church rid of useless tasbeha, hymns, liturgies and also the orthodox faith as the only truth.
Very funny.
Mikhail: I like Coptic hymns a lot, and my ears are as white as the rest of me! So I don't know what you're talking about there. I think any non-Copt attracted to the Church is probably first attracted by the beauty of the hymns and liturgy (except for me, I guess; it was translated sermons by HH that did it for me). How could it be otherwise when they probably don't know very much about the faith, or the cultures in the church? How many other things are there to make people curious in the first place? We can't all just be looking for Coptic spouses! (That's what people here have told me usually attracts white people, but I think that's stupid even if true. You can marry into a Church but not into a faith; that has to come from God and your own heart.)
People may like Orthodoxy, may like the Coptic Church but may not necessarily get emotional over her music. I do not want the Coptic heritage to be a stumbling stone in attracting new converts.
At the same time, I do not want the other cultures to interfere with my Church. I have long argued that Greek hymns recently added to our Church hymns should not have been added because they simply so not blend with the Coptic music.
So how can we solve this dilemma of attracting new converts while preserving both the Coptic heritage and allow for the converts to worship within the Orthodox faith? The ideal situation is to have "stand alone" churches that tend to the specific ethnic group that it is serving. Generally, people are not attracted to Orthodoxy because of music but because it is the authentic faith. Why would people specifically be attracted to the Coptic Church? Again, because of its history and place in the Orthodox faith.
Yes, there are occasions when people get attracted by the music, but we are not going to evangelize people through singing. We should evangelize our faith instead of our culture.
Hope this helps
The Very reverend and holy Priest Bishoy Salama (hereafter referred to as Priest B.S. to save time and cyber ink) is a master of marketing and sales from his days as a jewellery salesman, and he uses it to his advantage as a priest. With focused marketing, sales plans and strategies, he always succeeds in selling his products to his targeted customers group, whether it is an old gold braclet or our ancient faith. His target group are the ultra rich coptic families and their lovely kids, who constitute 99 % of his church, but are intentionally not represented in the photo albums on his website and left out of his televised services. Priest B.S., the marketing wizard, wants to paint the image of an "evangelising" church for his congregation to attract newcomers, and copts have no place there. The end justifies the means.
100 % of his converts came to the church because they got in love with one of the kids who go to his church and they needed to be baptized. Priest B.S., in a loving spirit that desires salvation to all at any cost and speed, spends 1/2 an hour explaining the Faith to them before Baptism, and then baaammmmm !!! Baptism.
As a successful businessman, since his days as a jewellery merchant, he also succeeds in attracting converts from other coptic churches. He lures them with his ultra liberal policies which have, unfortunately, no place in the churches where they were taught and baptized. I am not talking about the music in his liturgies or having girls in the choir dressed as deacons. I am talking about moral and faith-related issues. I salute him for his approach, because we need to tailor the faith to suit the newcomers, even if it means to hide the faith and christian morals from them for a while until we finish taking photos with them for marketing purposes.
When Priest B.S. left St. Mark Orthodox Church, making a schism that took significant time to heal, he was very clear that he does not welcome sudanese copts to his new church. Some thought this is very harsh but he was 100 % correct. These blue-collar sudanese would certainly hurt the image of his church. Some naive people find it ironic that he portrays himself as an "apostles to the non-copts" yet he reject his own fellow believers based on class and ethnicity. Nonsense ! This amature, non-professional mentality has no place in today's market .... I mean church. You have to act as a businessman without feelings, and not a father like it used to be. We lack this in our churches, and we need to take Priest B.S. as our example.
Priest B.S., being taught by the great master, Boulos of Kenya, does not neglect the intellectual needs of his congregation. He has offered an intellectual series for his church servants and general congregation to teach them the basics of other religions. In a weekly session for six months, Priest B.S. invited some teachers of hindu, jehova witness, adventist, scientiology, protestantism of course, judaism, catholicism, shia muslims and sunni muslims religions to present their faith to the servants and newcomers. Because Priest B.S. is a businessman, he never challenged any of their claims, simply because the series was held under the banner of "Unity, love and learning from each other". Eshta ya3ni ....
When he was in St. Mark church, he invited a "priestess" from the United Church to teach the Youth Group (14-18 years) four lessons about "The Truth". Of course, at that time, and because of the ignorance and narrow-mind approach of coptic servants, they opposed this move and could not understand the greater cause of Priest B.S.. The greater cause was to open the minds of the kids on the hidden treasures in other places. We , as Copts, are tab3an narrow-minded and think Orthodoxy is the Truth. Of course it is not, it is just a tiny part of it.
If you compare his amazing marketing techniques with the approach of a neighbour coptic church of his, you will know that we need a businessman and not a father to run the church. Priest B.S. spends all his immense income on building a new Cathedral, located about 500 m away from his old church. The neighbour church are stupid enough to give 70 % of its trivial income to the poor and homeless, while being squeezed in their 40 year old church. Priest B.S. makes sure he takes a photo with each convert from all positions and sometimes posts them as different converts after a while. The neighbour church has baptized about 40 individual within the past four years since Priest B.S. left but never cared to pose them for pictures for marketing purposes.
I have a dream that all priests will be like Priest B.S., young, attractive, westernized, liberal, funny and outspoken businessmen who can guide the church into a life of Evangelism (true or false, whatever) at any cost. He will make use leave our fanaticism behind and embrace all religions as part of the truth.
I have a dream that no more old coptic priests like Pope Kyrillos VI will be ordained. Old, boring, spiritual and "too coptic". Ya333..... We need to get our church rid of useless tasbeha, hymns, liturgies and also the orthodox faith as the only truth.
You took away my innocence with this one, Stavro.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11903.msg141953#msg141953 date=1311689427] You are probably referring to a personal experience.
However, a social gathering is not abandoning the heritage but in fact is an opportunity to go back to it.
If you reread I said "Every time we chose to have a social gathering....instead of of praying like Elijah or Macarius, we have abandoned our heritage a little bit. I didn't say social gatherings are wrong in themselves. But experience shows a lot of people will regularly attend a social gathering in the church and neglect prayer meetings, Vespers Agpey or Midnight Psalmody. Every time someone makes a personal decision to miss or avoid a Psalmody vigil and attend a church gathering at the Olive Garden (or wherever), it is an abandonment of our heritage. Again fund raising in itself is not wrong. Relying on human contribution above God's providence is wrong. I've seen some very elaborate and non-conventional fund raising because Churches are suffering. We wouldn't need to raffle a trip to Egypt if everybody paid their almsgiving freely and routinely to begin with. Again I'll repeat myself. There's nothing wrong with pizza. The problem occurs when people only attend services when there's food.
I hope I made myself clear.
In Zoxasi's example, a Copt told the convert that "What are you doing here?...You're not Egyptian" Granted this was a child and this incident was probably an aberration. But such verbal abuse is equivalent to pointing a gun at a convert's head and killing them because they are different. If this isn't forcing a culture on somebody, I don't know what is. Yes. "To the Greek, I became Greek so that I may win the Greeks. To the Jew..." To the convert, I became a convert so that I may win converts. No convert expects you to abandon your language, your tradition or your hymns. They are going to expect to be treated like non-converts. They are going to expect a fellowship of love and community, not ostricization and contempt for being different. And if language, tradition or hymns is the only thing that makes you different, then there is no spirit of unity. Can parents say to their adopted son, "you're our son, but not really because you don't speak English"? Or "you're our son, but not really because you don't speak Coptic, like baked beans or know Pekethronos"? Where is the bond of family, the bond of fellowship, the bond of one faith and one baptism that St Paul speaks about in Galatians 5?
People may like Orthodoxy, may like the Coptic Church but may not necessarily get emotional over her music. I do not want the Coptic heritage to be a stumbling stone in attracting new converts.
Of course, of course. I think we might differ a little bit on this point, or I may be misunderstanding you a little bit about what "interference" means. I don't see other cultures interfering with the faith so long as whatever is taken in is vetted for its Orthodoxy (this would keep out Protestant/Catholic ideas) and nativized in whatever way is necessary to teach and spread the faith (this is what was done in the switch from Greek to Coptic in the Alexandrian church, no?). But I think this is definitely something that must be watched carefully by those who know the proper ways of doing things, so that we don't have situations where inappropriate things are introduced, corrupting right practice and belief in a misguided attempt to appeal to everybody (this is my grouchy ex-RC side talking!). I'm not sure that I understand your vision here. Can you add more details, please? Ah, I see I need to clarify myself a bit. I don't at all mean "evangelize people through singing" (though I will say that I find the texts of Coptic hymns to be very instructive of basic beliefs for me personally; maybe I'm alone in this). I am referring to the idea that when people first come to the church and have no other knowledge of it, they are likely to be attracted to the hymns and the other sensory parts of the liturgy precisely because that is the level at which they can participate and experience the liturgy without deeper knowledge to rely on. I know that this is the case for at least some converts to Orthodoxy, because my English-speaking Eastern Orthodox friends in the OCA, Bulgarian, and Greek Orthodox churches have all told me that it was the beauty of the liturgy that initially attracted them to the church. That means the chanting, the incense, etc. Of course a mature faith must move beyond this level if a person is to actually become well-rooted in Orthodoxy and confess the apostolic faith and be accepted into the church, but I am only saying: Let's not discount the sensory experience of Orthodoxy, which includes the hymns. All of these things are important. You might in fact be shocked at how many Roman Catholics you could be receiving if they were approached in the right way, as I know many of my age group (late 20s-early 30s) and even younger who are dissatisfied with the lack of this kind of "all-encompassing" sensory experience in their church. I can dimly remember sometimes feeling that way myself as an RC. There is little to separate their worship from the average boy scout or other secular meeting, save the occasional organ or piano (which I never liked anyway; give me the daf over that any day!)
Anyway, thanks for your clarification. :)
Were there 2 Antiochian churches with different cultures in Antioch in the early church? Were there 2 two Churches in Alexandria with different music, rituals and art? No. There was one church in Alexandria with one faith. All spoke Greek. There was only one church in Rome with the same faith and spoke Greek. And so on. Two different churches did not occupy the same space. What you are describing is a metropolitan church in multi-cultural city with the same faith as a different metropolitan church in a different cultural city. Even though they were different cultures, they adapted in certain ways (mainly by using Greek) so that they can all be unified in faith and culture. Of course they will still exist to a varying degree. For example, the Latin Catholics will probably hold on to their heritage yet have the Orthodox faith, so are the Greeks, ...
This is very evident in the Roman Church .. there are the Eastern Catholics who have different rites than the Latin and there are Coptic Catholics who have Coptic rites, ... yet they all share the same faith of the Roman Church.
Again, you're not reading what I wrote. I didn't say Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox outside of Egypt or OCA or anybody outside of Egypt. I said Coptic Catholics in Egypt with Greek Orthodox of Alexandria with Alexandrian Presbyterians, Anglicans and so on. If they all had identical faith and doctrine, why would there be all these churches in the same city? Culture? They are all from Egypt. They all have the same culture by and large with minor differences. They only reason they would continue to exist is because some one doesn't have the spirit of unity and wants these minor differences to separate them. The only other reason would be someone's ego won't let him/her submit to their brother or sister church - which is also against the spirit of unity.
i do not know the solution to this problem..+it worries me to see our church lose souls like this. a priest once came to my church on a visit to give us a talk about service, he told the congregation that the services should be in the language of the country, he said the youth are the future of the church and we have to be careful not to lose them.. he said the adults have lived many yrs in the church hearing the liturgies+sermons+hymns in a language they understand but at the moment many of our children have not.. (i cant remember his exact words but this is as close to them as i remember)
i personally feel that he is right, things should be in the language of the country we are in. This is a sacrifice for those who were brought up in Egypt and love to hear the hymns in arabic, their mother tongue.. but it is possible to have several services in different languages.. one in English, one is Arabic (i guess both with bits of Coptic in) and for people who really love Coptic perhaps one in Coptic. Also, mixed Liturgies regularly, to keep the church united. if we love our children+the country we are now in+the people in this country then it is so important we have Liturgies in the language of the country we are in.
i think it is difficult for someone from a different culture to join a church which is mainly all one nationality.. i underestimated this until this wknd. being away from home, i found the closest orthodox church to me to be a Syrian Orthodox Church. i thought ooh i've never bn to one before this should be nice (+perhaps they will think im just Syrian +i'll understand it if they have some of the Liturgy in arabic) when i arrived i realised it was all Indian, the women were wearing beautiful saries and the service was in a language i did not understand.. i wanted to talk to the priest to explain my presence, tell him im Coptic+ask if i cud stay for communion, but the mass started+i did not get the chance.. so i stayed for a little while but not the whole Liturgy as i had initially intended.
my ideas: attending a service in a language u dont understand is difficult. being the only person from a different nationality in a church where everyone is the same nationality is difficult. not knowing anyone in a church is difficult.
Therefore, :) try and make things easier, try+speak the same language .. if it is currently not possible then pray about it, ask Abouna if he can do the sermon/liturgy/Biblestudy in English, ask him if he can give u a copy of his sermon+u will translate it+turn it into a handout or powerpoint, thank him when he speaks in the language u understand, buy translated books, put up a projecter, ask someone who speaks both languages to sit in a corner and translate, but above all be welcoming and show love! new people in our churches from new places are blessings that enrich our community, we should treasure them. if i have one close friend with me, pretty much anywhere then i usually feel ok and gain confidence, be the new person’s friend, be the person they know they can sit next to or talk to after the Liturgy. Christ said 'they will know u are my disciples by ur love', so love deeply. genuine love and acceptance from a kind+warm heart is difficult to resist and overcomes many barriers. If we cannot speak words of love because of language barriers we need to make our actions speak.
i think even a few people like this in a church can make a huge difference.. so if u do not hav a service in the church yet, mayb u cud be the one that smiles at new people, or says ‘hello i haven’t seen u before at our church, i am so happy to see a new face.. u are very welcome here. My name is ... ’
as i write this i am painfully aware, that i have neglected to understand how difficult it is for new people in the past and how i did not understand how difficult it is for some people to sit thru the Liturgy in a language they do not understand. This is so important. i have taken too lightly these complaints that others have had and i think that this may b why some of those who no longer come do not come. like i said i do not kno how to make this better.
i pray that Christ may give us wisdom, a deep love for each other and help guide+protect His precious church through all the challenges that it faces
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11903.msg141955#msg141955 date=1311690714] The unity is in the faith and not culture. The early Church was one faith yet had multiple cultures which reflected on music, rituals, art, ...
Were there 2 Antiochian churches with different cultures in Antioch in the early church? Were there 2 two Churches in Alexandria with different music, rituals and art? No. There was one church in Alexandria with one faith. All spoke Greek. There was only one church in Rome with the same faith and spoke Greek. And so on. Two different churches did not occupy the same space. What you are describing is a metropolitan church in multi-cultural city with the same faith as a different metropolitan church in a different cultural city. Even though they were different cultures, they adapted in certain ways (mainly by using Greek) so that they can all be unified in faith and culture. Of course they will still exist to a varying degree. For example, the Latin Catholics will probably hold on to their heritage yet have the Orthodox faith, so are the Greeks, ...
This is very evident in the Roman Church .. there are the Eastern Catholics who have different rites than the Latin and there are Coptic Catholics who have Coptic rites, ... yet they all share the same faith of the Roman Church.
Again, you're not reading what I wrote. I didn't say Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox outside of Egypt or OCA or anybody outside of Egypt. I said Coptic Catholics in Egypt with Greek Orthodox of Alexandria with Alexandrian Presbyterians, Anglicans and so on. If they all had identical faith and doctrine, why would there be all these churches in the same city? Culture? They are all from Egypt. They all have the same culture by and large with minor differences. They only reason they would continue to exist is because some one doesn't have the spirit of unity and wants these minor differences to separate them. The only other reason would be someone's ego won't let him/her submit to their brother or sister church - which is also against the spirit of unity.
Reminkimi
I read your posts very well and I understand exactly what you are trying to convert. It seems to me you do not know much about Church history and probably have not grown up in Egypt.
Church history shows that there were one faith that encompass different cultures even within the same local Church. Yes, Copts in different parts of Egypt had different rituals and different hymns yet they belonged to the Church of Alexandria.
Catholics in Egypt have different groups. There are those who follow the Latin rite and are called Roman Catholics. And there are those who follow Coptic rite and they are called Coptic Catholics. Yes, both groups are in Egypt and yet belong to the same Roman See. These cultural divisions co exist in the same Church and in the same locality. They are not only in Egypt but are found in many different countries including the US.
The Coptic Church had not reached that point because it has not existed outside Egypt for so long but eventually it will. The BOC is an example so is Ethipia, Erirea and the other African Churches that belong to the Coptic Church (or used to) yet their culture influence the way they worship.
The Church MUST accommodate cultural differences otherwise worship would be meaningless.
Again God called for one faith not one culture.
The BOC is another example, the members follow the faith but they have their own culture.
If we really want to be serious about evangelism, we must not force our heritage onto others and we must not abandon it for the sake of others. In the first case, people in general will not feel comfortable or welcome if we tell them that they must use our music, art, rites, prayers, .... In the second case, if we abandon our heritage then we have no base to stand on because our heritage was formed through faith and through our heritage we defend the faith.
Culture is a very powerful part of who we are and must be taken into account when reaching out to others. Ethnic Copts or any other ethnic group for that matter will not abandon its heritage for others. It is a fact and the God acknowledges these differences through the different ways He accepts our worship.
You said that the Church should accommodate cultural differences. Well bro, its not.
Perhaps in Africa it is, but in Europe its not.
What does it mean to accept the cultural differences?
Well, does the COC in the UK have British hymns, written and sung in the British language? Is this what you are talking about? Or are you talking about serving baked-beans on toast during the fasting period (which is a very British food)?
In Africa, in some parts, women don't wear anything to cover their breasts - its normal for them. I assume that if we accept the cultural differences, then this should also be allowed in Church?? I mean, in Africa, a woman's Sunday Best Clothing would be a skirt, and neckless with her breast showing. If you ask women in Africa to come to Church wearing their most respectable clothes, then that would be considered their "sunday best".
In some parts of Africa, tribal dances are also common as a way of celebrating some specific event. I assume that you mean that we should accept such things in our Church also?
In the UK, we've accepted protestantism. One cultural aspect of the British is indeed they are tolerant, and are a very open society. The more tolerant they are, the more British they feel. Its a cultural aspect to be someone tolerant. The Coptic Orthodox Church has unwittingly adopted this cultural aspect and allowed its youth to attend protestant prayer meetings. The COC youth come back to the Church and teach these protestant hymns to other Coptic youth during the Friday youth meetings, and in fact, you can hear this garbage in most prayer meetings/youth events the Church runs.
The ONLY cultural aspect that should be employed is that of the language. If priests cannot speak the language of any host country, they shouldn't be allowed to serve in that Country - or - they COULD serve, but not alone. They'd need to work hard on their language skills.
So - let's get this straight -
Let's say that the Church baptizes 100 kenyans. These Kenyans pray and worship in the Coptic Church in Kenya through their own cultural expressions (Clapping/Dancing/Jumping/Eccentric Hand movements and playing the Tamtam).
Great. We've baptised 100 kenyans who are now Coptic Orthodox.
Let's say these Kenyans (100 of them) all immigrate to Belgium. That's a huge Coptic/Kenyan community now.
The priest, in Leuven, already prays a liturgy in French once a month for the French speaking congregation, on a Tuesday (the 1st Tuesday of the month).
Now this priest sees that there is a need to pray in Swahili. He says to the Kenyan deacons : "Look, I will give you a liturgy in Swahili - where you can sing the hymns in Swahili, but I will pray in Arabic or English".
Do you think if these Kenyans start clapping and dancing in a Coptic Church in Belgium (once a month) that it would be edifying for the Church??
I don't think so.
I would be thinking this, as the priest:
"Listen, with ALL DUE RESPECT to your Swahili language, and culture, you are all now in Belgium. In this country, we don't speak Swahili, Arabic, English.. we speak Flemish and French. If you plan to live here from now on, I suggest you learn either French/Flemish, and you can pray with us".
But alas, this is not the case.
By systematically refusing to adopt hymns in Flemish/French and to STICK to Arabic in the liturgy (in BELGIUM!) - what sort of signals are you giving the people? What sort of image are you giving the Belgian people about your Church and your faith?
a) you are showing a HUGE lack of respect for the culture of the host Country that you are in
b) you are telling the Egyptians there that there is no need to integrate in a country.
c) you are telling ANYONE belge walking in the Church that - THEY ARE NOT a priority. This Church, this liturgy, this service is mainly for EGYPTIANS.
amazing.
See, I always thought my faith was above language/culture barriers.
I think Coptic hymns are great, but for a Coptic Congregation. Our Congregation is NOT Coptic.. they are Arabs or Egyptians. NONE OF THEM understand Coptic.
The worst part is that none of them even understand French/Flemish either.
i hope u get the chance to go back to that church and give them feedback :)
You aren't getting imikhail's point. If those Kenyans pray in the Coptic church they would follow the Coptic liturgy, otherwise form their own church of kenyan orthodox church. Simple as. But for the Coptic church to adopt African traditions in Africa, European ones in Europe, American ones in America, then that's the molokheya that Remenkimi talks about (although not in the same sense). Many people don't mind the molokheya in the Coptic church anyway. That's sad...
Oujai
DEar Zoxsasi,
You aren't getting imikhail's point. If those Kenyans pray in the Coptic church they would follow the Coptic liturgy, otherwise form their own church of kenyan orthodox church. Simple as.
And imikhaiil is wrong. If Kenyans in Britain or the US form their own church when there is already an Orthodox Church, then we are no different than Martin Luther and other Protestants who started the Protestant Reformation. I know Luther and others were also protesting Catholic dogma, but the much of the Protestant Reformation also dealt with cultural practices mixed with wrong theology (indulgences). If Christians with the same faith begin forming churches solely based on culture, what will end up with? Will there be a Kenya British Orthodox right next door to the South African Orthodox Church, next door to the Coptic Orthodox Church, next door to British Orthodox Church, next door to the New York Orthodox Church in Britain, next door to the Little-people Orthodox church of Britain, next door to the Orthodox Church for the Obese? All exist because each one doesn't like the other church's moulokhia? Why can't we figure out how to form a new identity based on everyone's culture, not one specific culture?
This is not how it was in Egypt. Up until recent, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria had a significant number of Syrians and Armenians population living and communing the Coptic Church. Why didn't they start their own Syrian Orthodox Church in Alexandria or the Armenian Orthodox Church in Alexandria? Yet, they maintained their own customs and culture and integrated it into the Coptic Church. For example, Youhanna al-Armani is one of the most famous 14th century Armenian iconographers of Coptic icons found in many churches and monasteries in Egypt.
But for the Coptic church to adopt African traditions in Africa, European ones in Europe, American ones in America, then that's the molokheya that Remenkimi talks about (although not in the same sense). Many people don't mind the molokheya in the Coptic church anyway. That's sad...
Oujai
Follow my example here for a moment. A problem starts when the Upper Egyptians add so and so spices into their moulokhia that the Alexandrians refuse to eat from. And so the Alexandrians call all food that is made from Upper Egypt as Sa'ede. Sa'ede becomes a euphemism for bad food and eventually bad people. The better approach is for Alexandrians to try Sa'ede moulokhia. If they keep an open mind, they will like Sa'ede moulokhia and eventually make Alexandrian moulokhia with Sa'ede spices.
No culture lives in a vacuum. Everyone who comes in contact with another culture incorporates the other culture into the other in some small form. Eventually a new multi-cultural identity is created. Nothing is replaced. The problem occurs when we want foreigners to stay as foreigners.
The Kenyans will form their own Church because they have a Kenyan Church that received its faith from the Coptic Church just as the Ethiopian Church did.
We as Copts need to do in the West what we have been doing in Africa. Deliver the Orthodox faith to the West and leave the Western Culture intact (not as Zokzasis suggested) just like the BOC.
We cannot integrate Western music, art, ... into the Coptic Church. This will create a conflict of culture just as Zoksasi is experiencing
We also cannot abandon the Coptic heritage for the sake of the converts. We only deliver the faith just as the apostles did. St. Mark did not bring his Jewish tradition with him to Egypt, he used what was already there and mold it into the Christian faith. This is how the Church began, exists today, and will be in the future.
We cannot create one identity, one culture for all the different ethnicities. This will take place in heaven ensha' allah.
Anyway, regardless - the straw that broke the camel's back was truly the fact that the priest cannot speak the language of non Egyptians in the country where he is.
It speaks volumes.
a) it means that those attending the COC who want to leave because of this REALLY care about their spiritual lives. They would not be interested in leaving if they were there just for the social life.
b) it means that the belge who are there - who have not complained, either speak arabic FLUENTLY (which is not true), or who are not interested in having an FoC nor a Spiritual Guide.
I find that b) is the most dangerous situation. Those who are leaving the COC are indeed looking into other Orthodox Churches. I will not lie. I just used the RC as an example of how a Church should be with respect to cultural practices. But these youth are SO orthodox, they want to remain Orthodox, and just find a place where they can benefit from the fullness of the Orthodox faith whilst being Non-Egyptian.
Situation b) is awful.. it means that there are people not living the fullness of the Orthodox faith. How can they be confessing to a priest who does not understand them??? What is this??!
I was going to write "I don't see why the Coptic Church can't be like that", but honestly I think it already is. Maybe not in every case (ex. Zoxsasi's situation), but I firmly believe it is entirely possible to be Orthodox and French, American, English, Eskimo, whatever. You could form a "American Coptic Orthodox Church", sure, but most likely the only thing that would be different is the language and some of the food served at social events. And with so many churches in the USA and Canada already having services partially/entirely in English, I am not sure how much of a need there is across the board to fix things. Or, rather, the way to fix things is to train priests to speak the national language before you send them to a new country (or set up some way for them to learn in the field), and this does not at all require the founding of an entirely new national church for every country.