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What does the word Asbasmos Mean? & why we have adam & watos?

hany58hany58
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Hi All,

What does the word Asbasmos mean & why do we have a watos & adam asabsmos in the same liturgy?

For the verses of cymbals for examples, we have days for watos & days for adam.  Why is the asbasmos different?

I need clarification.

thanks

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=baladoos link=topic=12035.msg142964#msg142964 date=1313029011]
    What does the word Asbasmos mean & why do we have a watos & adam asabsmos in the same liturgy?
    aspasmos (more like aspazmos) mean kiss/greet/make peace.

    For the verses of cymbals for examples, we have days for watos & days for adam.  Why is the asbasmos different?

    adam and watos doesn't only refer to the day but also to the way the hymn is said.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg142966#msg142966 date=1313031153]
    [quote author=baladoos link=topic=12035.msg142964#msg142964 date=1313029011]
    What does the word Asbasmos mean & why do we have a watos & adam asabsmos in the same liturgy?
    aspasmos (more like aspazmos) mean kiss/greet/make peace.

    For the verses of cymbals for examples, we have days for watos & days for adam.  Why is the asbasmos different?

    adam and watos doesn't only refer to the day but also to the way the hymn is said.


    so are they only supposed to be said on their respective days?
  • kyrollos faheemkyrollos faheem
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=12035.msg142973#msg142973 date=1313036519]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg142966#msg142966 date=1313031153]
    [quote author=baladoos link=topic=12035.msg142964#msg142964 date=1313029011]
    What does the word Asbasmos mean & why do we have a watos & adam asabsmos in the same liturgy?
    aspasmos (more like aspazmos) mean kiss/greet/make peace.

    For the verses of cymbals for examples, we have days for watos & days for adam.  Why is the asbasmos different?

    adam and watos doesn't only refer to the day but also to the way the hymn is said.


    so are they only supposed to be said on their respective days?


    Yes! But to my understanding, some churches say the Aspasmos Watos on Sundays even though they are to be chanted on Wednesday-Saturday because most people do not come on a Wednesday or Friday liturgy, or Saturday (if the church does a liturgy on that day) and they want to preserve the hymn.
  • Amoussa01
    Actually, you can say both the Adam and Vatos Aspasmos for any Liturgy regardless of the day. In this case, the words "Adam" and "Vatos" refer to the tune only. However when referring to the verses of cymbals; we have Adam and Vatos not to differentiate between tunes but words which are different depending on the day.

    Adam--Sunday, Monday, Tuesday
    Vatos--Rest of the days

    For the psalies, it refers to both a change in the words and the tune (these also depend on the day).

    GB
    Tony
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear all,
    As Mina and Amoussa01 said. Watos and Adam refer to the tune, not the days of the week. It just happens that the church further divided those tunes into respective days as Amoussa01 rightly said as is the case with tasbeha (midnight praises) for instance.
    However, verses of cymbals are ADAM only. They are not Adam and Watos. The wording of the prelude only changes in the Sunday, Monday and Tuesday (which do happen to be Adam days), and for the rest of the week, but the tune stays ADAM. Not sure if there is any book which mentions different titles... I would believe it to be wrong.
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • ophadeceophadece
    Realised my mistake just now. Yes books refer to them as Watos and Adam intro, but I guess only depending on days they are sung in...
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • imikhailimikhail
    Adam and Watos refer both to the days and the tune.

    There are doxologies that are classified as either Adam or Watos and are prayed using the same tune (e.g. the annual tune) but are only prayed on the days that are Adam and Watos respectively.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12035.msg143006#msg143006 date=1313071689]
    Adam and Watos refer both to the days and the tune.

    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=12035.msg142981#msg142981 date=1313039694]

    so are they only supposed to be said on their respective days?

    Yes!
    Than both of you please explain to me why there is only one aspasmos adam on Great Thursday: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1753
    and one aspasmos adam on bright saturday: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/964

    there is also another occasion that i can't remember that have the same case.


    There are doxologies that are classified as either Adam or Watos and are prayed using the same tune (e.g. the annual tune) but are only prayed on the days that are Adam and Watos respectively.

    i have to disagree. Yes there are watos and adam doxologies....but they only refer to the tune. Adam doxologies are said in the tune of Eporo from tamgeed--no one knows these at all since they were all coptic and are said in the tamgeed (can be found now in Albair's new book of tamgeed).....actually, the 2nd doxology of Saint Demiana of such way. the Watos doxologies on the other hand are said in the watos tune of the occasion, 6 tunes that change over year.
  • imikhailimikhail
    My comments are in Red

    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143026#msg143026 date=1313096018]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12035.msg143006#msg143006 date=1313071689]
    Adam and Watos refer both to the days and the tune.

    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=12035.msg142981#msg142981 date=1313039694]

    so are they only supposed to be said on their respective days?

    Yes!
    Than both of you please explain to me why there is only one aspasmos adam on Great Thursday: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1753
    and one aspasmos adam on bright saturday: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/964

    there is also another occasion that i can't remember that have the same case.

    Adam and Watos are tunes as well as days. In the case you just mentioned the tune is there for the Adam response but not for the Watos response.


    There are doxologies that are classified as either Adam or Watos and are prayed using the same tune (e.g. the annual tune) but are only prayed on the days that are Adam and Watos respectively.

    i have to disagree. Yes there are watos and adam doxologies....but they only refer to the tune. Adam doxologies are said in the tune of Eporo from tamgeed--no one knows these at all since they were all coptic and are said in the tamgeed (can be found now in Albair's new book of tamgeed).....actually, the 2nd doxology of Saint Demiana of such way. the Watos doxologies on the other hand are said in the watos tune of the occasion, 6 tunes that change over year.


    So what is the Watostune for the doxologies?
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear imikhail,
    All the doxologies of midnight praises, matins praises (and of course vespers) are Watos doxologies. I haven't heard of Adam doxologies in glorifications that Mina refers to, but of course the prelude `pouro `nte ]hiryny is Adam... it is usually followed by Arabic songs though...
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12035.msg143038#msg143038 date=1313105890]
    Dear imikhail,
    All the doxologies of midnight praises, matins praises (and of course vespers) are Watos doxologies. I haven't heard of Adam doxologies in glorifications that Mina refers to, but of course the prelude `pouro `nte ]hiryny is Adam... it is usually followed by Arabic songs though...
    Oujai qen `P[C

    exactly....the doxologies tune changes across the year....it is watos.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Yes Mina, and in some cases we have Adam tunes changing with ceremonials as well. Especially joyful tunes as is the case with verses of cymbals, difnar, and psalies.
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Example of an adam doxology:

    min: 2:44
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12035.msg143040#msg143040 date=1313108546]
    Yes Mina, and in some cases we have Adam tunes changing with ceremonials as well. Especially joyful tunes as is the case with verses of cymbals, difnar, and psalies.
    Oujai qen `P[C

    actually, not as much no. for the verses of cymbals, the tune is the same, not watos or adam. the longer way is just the festive way for the verses. they are unique in their tune annually and joyfully despite being adam or watos parts.

    for the difnar, i have to say that the ways of saying it are very confusing since much of them have been lost.

    for the psalies, that is a clear example of hymns that when titled adam or watos, they refer to the tune and the day.
  • joegjoeg
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143092#msg143092 date=1313163339]
    for the psalies, that is a clear example of hymns that when titled adam or watos, they refer to the tune and the day.


    Not necessarily: there is both an Psali Adam and a Psali Watos for Pentecost. As Pentecost will always fall on a Sunday (an Adam day) by your reasoning you would only chant the Psali Adam - but instead, both can and are chanted.

    Not all Psalis refer to both the day and the tune.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=JG link=topic=12035.msg143097#msg143097 date=1313171389]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143092#msg143092 date=1313163339]
    for the psalies, that is a clear example of hymns that when titled adam or watos, they refer to the tune and the day.


    Not necessarily: there is both an Psali Adam and a Psali Watos for Pentecost. As Pentecost will always fall on a Sunday (an Adam day) by your reasoning you would only chant the Psali Adam - but instead, both can and are chanted.

    Not all Psalis refer to both the day and the tune.

    i disagree......vespers for Pentecost is done on a Saturday, a watos day....that's why there is an psali watos.

    with psalies, what confirms what i am saying is the structure of the psali itself....both tunes are unique and are attached to the text.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    For Ascension, there is only one watos psali (despite the adam and watos ones shown in queens black psalmody which is for period between ascension and pentecost--includes adam days)
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143098#msg143098 date=1313171949]
    [quote author=JG link=topic=12035.msg143097#msg143097 date=1313171389]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143092#msg143092 date=1313163339]
    for the psalies, that is a clear example of hymns that when titled adam or watos, they refer to the tune and the day.


    Not necessarily: there is both an Psali Adam and a Psali Watos for Pentecost. As Pentecost will always fall on a Sunday (an Adam day) by your reasoning you would only chant the Psali Adam - but instead, both can and are chanted.

    Not all Psalis refer to both the day and the tune.

    i disagree......vespers for Pentecost is done on a Saturday, a watos day....that's why there is an psali watos.

    with psalies, what confirms what i am saying is the structure of the psali itself....both tunes are unique and are attached to the text.


    I second Mina.

    What he is saying is 100% right :D
  • joegjoeg
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143098#msg143098 date=1313171949]
    [quote author=JG link=topic=12035.msg143097#msg143097 date=1313171389]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143092#msg143092 date=1313163339]
    for the psalies, that is a clear example of hymns that when titled adam or watos, they refer to the tune and the day.


    Not necessarily: there is both an Psali Adam and a Psali Watos for Pentecost. As Pentecost will always fall on a Sunday (an Adam day) by your reasoning you would only chant the Psali Adam - but instead, both can and are chanted.

    Not all Psalis refer to both the day and the tune.

    i disagree......vespers for Pentecost is done on a Saturday, a watos day....that's why there is an psali watos.

    with psalies, what confirms what i am saying is the structure of the psali itself....both tunes are unique and are attached to the text.


    The midnight praises would be done on the early morning on Sunday - would you not then say the Psali Watos?
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=JG link=topic=12035.msg143103#msg143103 date=1313174836]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143098#msg143098 date=1313171949]
    [quote author=JG link=topic=12035.msg143097#msg143097 date=1313171389]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143092#msg143092 date=1313163339]
    for the psalies, that is a clear example of hymns that when titled adam or watos, they refer to the tune and the day.


    Not necessarily: there is both an Psali Adam and a Psali Watos for Pentecost. As Pentecost will always fall on a Sunday (an Adam day) by your reasoning you would only chant the Psali Adam - but instead, both can and are chanted.

    Not all Psalis refer to both the day and the tune.

    i disagree......vespers for Pentecost is done on a Saturday, a watos day....that's why there is an psali watos.

    with psalies, what confirms what i am saying is the structure of the psali itself....both tunes are unique and are attached to the text.


    The midnight praises would be done on the early morning on Sunday - would you not then say the Psali Watos?


    Yes this is right. However, the Vespers praises would be on a Saturday.
  • joegjoeg
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12035.msg143104#msg143104 date=1313175263]
    [quote author=JG link=topic=12035.msg143103#msg143103 date=1313174836]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143098#msg143098 date=1313171949]
    [quote author=JG link=topic=12035.msg143097#msg143097 date=1313171389]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143092#msg143092 date=1313163339]
    for the psalies, that is a clear example of hymns that when titled adam or watos, they refer to the tune and the day.


    Not necessarily: there is both an Psali Adam and a Psali Watos for Pentecost. As Pentecost will always fall on a Sunday (an Adam day) by your reasoning you would only chant the Psali Adam - but instead, both can and are chanted.

    Not all Psalis refer to both the day and the tune.

    i disagree......vespers for Pentecost is done on a Saturday, a watos day....that's why there is an psali watos.

    with psalies, what confirms what i am saying is the structure of the psali itself....both tunes are unique and are attached to the text.


    The midnight praises would be done on the early morning on Sunday - would you not then say the Psali Watos?


    Yes this is right. However, the Vespers praises would be on a Saturday.


    If the Psali is said both in the Vespers and Midnight prayers, (the former is technically Saturday and hence Watos, and the latter is technically Sunday and hence Adam) the fact that it is a Psali Watos is therefore NOT referring to the day it is said on.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=JG link=topic=12035.msg143107#msg143107 date=1313175878]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12035.msg143104#msg143104 date=1313175263]
    [quote author=JG link=topic=12035.msg143103#msg143103 date=1313174836]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143098#msg143098 date=1313171949]
    [quote author=JG link=topic=12035.msg143097#msg143097 date=1313171389]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12035.msg143092#msg143092 date=1313163339]
    for the psalies, that is a clear example of hymns that when titled adam or watos, they refer to the tune and the day.


    Not necessarily: there is both an Psali Adam and a Psali Watos for Pentecost. As Pentecost will always fall on a Sunday (an Adam day) by your reasoning you would only chant the Psali Adam - but instead, both can and are chanted.

    Not all Psalis refer to both the day and the tune.

    i disagree......vespers for Pentecost is done on a Saturday, a watos day....that's why there is an psali watos.

    with psalies, what confirms what i am saying is the structure of the psali itself....both tunes are unique and are attached to the text.


    The midnight praises would be done on the early morning on Sunday - would you not then say the Psali Watos?


    Yes this is right. However, the Vespers praises would be on a Saturday.


    If the Psali is said both in the Vespers and Midnight prayers, (the former is technically Saturday and hence Watos, and the latter is technically Sunday and hence Adam) the fact that it is a Psali Watos is therefore NOT referring to the day it is said on.


    I am not sure what is missing here.

    The Pentecost has two psalis, one Watos and one Adam. The Watos is said on Saturday during the Vespers praises, the Adam is said during Midnight praises on Sunday.

    Hope this clears the issue.
  • ophadeceophadece
    What is missing is Mina adding Ascension fact: only one watos psali, as it falls on a watos day. There is one Adam psali that he mentioned that could be said UP UNTIL Pentecost (although practically speaking, this could never happen). He added that piece of fact to the two Pentecost psalis and this where the confusion arose...
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12035.msg143110#msg143110 date=1313176397]
    What is missing is Mina adding Ascension fact: only one watos psali, as it falls on a watos day. There is one Adam psali that he mentioned that could be said UP UNTIL Pentecost (although practically speaking, this could never happen). He added that piece of fact to the two Pentecost psalis and this where the confusion arose...
    Oujai qen `P[C

    if that creates confusion than ignore it.......it's extra info i know about psalies that may confuse others' "usual" rite of chanting psalies.
  • joegjoeg
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12035.msg143109#msg143109 date=1313176263]
    I am not sure what is missing here.

    The Pentecost has two psalis, one Watos and one Adam. The Watos is said on Saturday during the Vespers praises, the Adam is said during Midnight praises on Sunday.

    Hope this clears the issue.


    Thank you very much imikhail, it is clear in my mind now.
  • imikhailimikhail
    You are welcome JG
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