I didn't think we were even talking about the written form. Isn't the OP about pronunciation? The written form is essentially irrelevant anyway, from a linguistic perspective. The written form is only a representation of a particular dialect (generally the standard or prestige dialect).
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12118.msg143403#msg143403 date=1313764491] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12118.msg143379#msg143379 date=1313719267] Does not matter what version of Greek is. It is a Greek hymn. By Greek hymn, I assume you mean a hymn written in the Greek language. Well to qualify this, this hymn must be mutually intelligible to those who speak and communicate in Greek (and specifically Byzantine or Koine Greek). If they cannot understand the hymn, one can't call it a Greek hymn if the Greeks can't understand it. So it does matter what dialect or variation of Greek it is.
It is like Arabic, English, Spanish, French or any other language that is spoken by different groups in different regions of the world. The spoken words would be difficult to understand but the written form would not.
That's only because Arabs speak in colloquial while they usually write in a more formal version, (almost Modern Standard Arabic). A similar situation is found in English. I can't understand Jamaican English, but when you go to Jamaica and see newspapers and documents, they are in standard English. Coptic and Greek is different. Copts don't speak Greek. So you're example doesn't apply. In addition, Greeks will not understand written Egyptian Greek, especially since some Egyptian Greek texts in the Roman empire use vocabulary not found outside Egypt. See Tovar's article on Egyptian Lexical Interference in the Greek of Byzantine and Early Islamic Egypt. And some Greek texts (like Devte pantes) in the Coptic church have very little standard Greek.
No. Greek is Greek no matter where it was used. I have never heard of Coptic Greek, Antiochian Greek, Roman Greek, ....
Here is an article on Pontic Greek vs. Ancient Greek. Here is an article on Ancient Greek dialects. Here is an article on dialects of Modern Greek. Here is an article on Italian Greek. Here is an article on Albanian Greek. And I can go on.
By Greek hymn, I assume you mean a hymn written in the Greek language. Well to qualify this, this hymn must be mutually intelligible to those who speak and communicate in Greek (and specifically Byzantine or Koine Greek). If they cannot understand the hymn, one can't call it a Greek hymn if the Greeks can't understand it. So it does matter what dialect or variation of Greek it is.
What you are saying is true if the hymn is authored by people who speak the language. Unfortunately, these hymns were developed by people who do not speak the Greek language nor the Coptic language. So, these hymns cannot be linguistically recognized as a variation, dialect or anything else except that they were poorly written.
That's only because Arabs speak in colloquial while they usually write in a more formal version, (almost Modern Standard Arabic). A similar situation is found in English. I can't understand Jamaican English, but when you go to Jamaica and see newspapers and documents, they are in standard English. Coptic and Greek is different. Copts don't speak Greek. So you're example doesn't apply. In addition, Greeks will not understand written Egyptian Greek, especially since some Egyptian Greek texts in the Roman empire use vocabulary not found outside Egypt. See Tovar's article on Egyptian Lexical Interference in the Greek of Byzantine and Early Islamic Egypt. And some Greek texts (like Devte pantes) in the Coptic church have very little standard Greek.
You missed the point.
Copts used to speak Greek and author in Greek. So you cannot say that the Greeks could not understand the Greek that was spoken or written in Egypt.
When Copts stopped speaking Greek and 1500 years later try to develop hymns in Greek they produced Gibberish Greek not understandable by anyone.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12118.msg143419#msg143419 date=1313779001] [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12118.msg143403#msg143403 date=1313764491] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12118.msg143379#msg143379 date=1313719267] Does not matter what version of Greek is. It is a Greek hymn. By Greek hymn, I assume you mean a hymn written in the Greek language. Well to qualify this, this hymn must be mutually intelligible to those who speak and communicate in Greek (and specifically Byzantine or Koine Greek). If they cannot understand the hymn, one can't call it a Greek hymn if the Greeks can't understand it. So it does matter what dialect or variation of Greek it is.
It is like Arabic, English, Spanish, French or any other language that is spoken by different groups in different regions of the world. The spoken words would be difficult to understand but the written form would not.
That's only because Arabs speak in colloquial while they usually write in a more formal version, (almost Modern Standard Arabic). A similar situation is found in English. I can't understand Jamaican English, but when you go to Jamaica and see newspapers and documents, they are in standard English. Coptic and Greek is different. Copts don't speak Greek. So you're example doesn't apply. In addition, Greeks will not understand written Egyptian Greek, especially since some Egyptian Greek texts in the Roman empire use vocabulary not found outside Egypt. See Tovar's article on Egyptian Lexical Interference in the Greek of Byzantine and Early Islamic Egypt. And some Greek texts (like Devte pantes) in the Coptic church have very little standard Greek.
No. Greek is Greek no matter where it was used. I have never heard of Coptic Greek, Antiochian Greek, Roman Greek, ....
Here is an article on Pontic Greek vs. Ancient Greek. Here is an article on Ancient Greek dialects. Here is an article on dialects of Modern Greek. Here is an article on Italian Greek. Here is an article on Albanian Greek. And I can go on.
By Greek hymn, I assume you mean a hymn written in the Greek language. Well to qualify this, this hymn must be mutually intelligible to those who speak and communicate in Greek (and specifically Byzantine or Koine Greek). If they cannot understand the hymn, one can't call it a Greek hymn if the Greeks can't understand it. So it does matter what dialect or variation of Greek it is.
What you are saying is true if the hymn is authored by people who speak the language. Unfortunately, these hymns were developed by people who do not speak the Greek language nor the Coptic language. So, these hymns cannot be linguistically recognized as a variation, dialect or anything else except that they were poorly written.
That's only because Arabs speak in colloquial while they usually write in a more formal version, (almost Modern Standard Arabic). A similar situation is found in English. I can't understand Jamaican English, but when you go to Jamaica and see newspapers and documents, they are in standard English. Coptic and Greek is different. Copts don't speak Greek. So you're example doesn't apply. In addition, Greeks will not understand written Egyptian Greek, especially since some Egyptian Greek texts in the Roman empire use vocabulary not found outside Egypt. See Tovar's article on Egyptian Lexical Interference in the Greek of Byzantine and Early Islamic Egypt. And some Greek texts (like Devte pantes) in the Coptic church have very little standard Greek.
You missed the point.
Copts used to speak Greek and author in Greek. So you cannot say that the Greeks could not understand the Greek that was spoken or written in Egypt.
When Copts stopped speaking Greek and 1500 years later try to develop hymns in Greek they produced Gibberish Greek not understandable by anyone.
THank you. May God bless you for posting this!
Remenkemi, I find you a Coptic enthusiast - the same with Ophadece, but enough already. Greek is NOT our language. An Egyptian was teaching French in Egypt, and told her pupils NOT to pronounce the "r", that in France, people do not pronounce the "r". That's completely False. We do pronounce the "r"'s, but its pronounced "airgh" not "arr" (as in English).
So, is she teaching her pupils an Egyptian French?? You see how ludicrous you sound??
One teacher (in Egypt) who taught english used to tell her pupils to "Uns-war" (Answer) the questions. That's how she'd say "answer". Was she speaking an Egyptian English? Or was that just plain ignorance from her part!!???
Zoxsasi, You didn't understand what imikhail meant. Copts used to author and write in Greek when they understood Greek fully, but they didn't pronounce it the way Greeks did. That never happened. PERIOD. 1500 years later they restarted writing in Greek (I guess less than 1500 actually) mainly using some or even plenty of words, out of context perhaps, out of meaning order perhaps, and still they didn't pronounce it as the Greeks did. PERIOD. Zoxsasi if we apply your principle in pronouncing Greek the valid way (that Greeks do, and forget how Coptic should use the same letters) then what happens to the hymns tenen o;en - acwmen? One verse we will spend time pronouncing letters one way, and the very next verse we pronounce them differently? A joke, right? In ari'alin - O Kirioc we will do that in no time because words are mixed together in the very same verse!!! Oujai qen `P[C
Comments
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12118.msg143379#msg143379 date=1313719267]
Does not matter what version of Greek is. It is a Greek hymn.
By Greek hymn, I assume you mean a hymn written in the Greek language. Well to qualify this, this hymn must be mutually intelligible to those who speak and communicate in Greek (and specifically Byzantine or Koine Greek). If they cannot understand the hymn, one can't call it a Greek hymn if the Greeks can't understand it. So it does matter what dialect or variation of Greek it is. That's only because Arabs speak in colloquial while they usually write in a more formal version, (almost Modern Standard Arabic). A similar situation is found in English. I can't understand Jamaican English, but when you go to Jamaica and see newspapers and documents, they are in standard English. Coptic and Greek is different. Copts don't speak Greek. So you're example doesn't apply. In addition, Greeks will not understand written Egyptian Greek, especially since some Egyptian Greek texts in the Roman empire use vocabulary not found outside Egypt. See Tovar's article on Egyptian Lexical Interference in the Greek of Byzantine and Early Islamic Egypt. And some Greek texts (like Devte pantes) in the Coptic church have very little standard Greek. Here is an article on Pontic Greek vs. Ancient Greek. Here is an article on Ancient Greek dialects. Here is an article on dialects of Modern Greek. Here is an article on Italian Greek. Here is an article on Albanian Greek. And I can go on.
What you are saying is true if the hymn is authored by people who speak the language. Unfortunately, these hymns were developed by people who do not speak the Greek language nor the Coptic language. So, these hymns cannot be linguistically recognized as a variation, dialect or anything else except that they were poorly written. You missed the point.
Copts used to speak Greek and author in Greek. So you cannot say that the Greeks could not understand the Greek that was spoken or written in Egypt.
When Copts stopped speaking Greek and 1500 years later try to develop hymns in Greek they produced Gibberish Greek not understandable by anyone.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12118.msg143403#msg143403 date=1313764491]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12118.msg143379#msg143379 date=1313719267]
Does not matter what version of Greek is. It is a Greek hymn.
By Greek hymn, I assume you mean a hymn written in the Greek language. Well to qualify this, this hymn must be mutually intelligible to those who speak and communicate in Greek (and specifically Byzantine or Koine Greek). If they cannot understand the hymn, one can't call it a Greek hymn if the Greeks can't understand it. So it does matter what dialect or variation of Greek it is. That's only because Arabs speak in colloquial while they usually write in a more formal version, (almost Modern Standard Arabic). A similar situation is found in English. I can't understand Jamaican English, but when you go to Jamaica and see newspapers and documents, they are in standard English. Coptic and Greek is different. Copts don't speak Greek. So you're example doesn't apply. In addition, Greeks will not understand written Egyptian Greek, especially since some Egyptian Greek texts in the Roman empire use vocabulary not found outside Egypt. See Tovar's article on Egyptian Lexical Interference in the Greek of Byzantine and Early Islamic Egypt. And some Greek texts (like Devte pantes) in the Coptic church have very little standard Greek. Here is an article on Pontic Greek vs. Ancient Greek. Here is an article on Ancient Greek dialects. Here is an article on dialects of Modern Greek. Here is an article on Italian Greek. Here is an article on Albanian Greek. And I can go on.
What you are saying is true if the hymn is authored by people who speak the language. Unfortunately, these hymns were developed by people who do not speak the Greek language nor the Coptic language. So, these hymns cannot be linguistically recognized as a variation, dialect or anything else except that they were poorly written. You missed the point.
Copts used to speak Greek and author in Greek. So you cannot say that the Greeks could not understand the Greek that was spoken or written in Egypt.
When Copts stopped speaking Greek and 1500 years later try to develop hymns in Greek they produced Gibberish Greek not understandable by anyone.
THank you. May God bless you for posting this!
Remenkemi, I find you a Coptic enthusiast - the same with Ophadece, but enough already.
Greek is NOT our language. An Egyptian was teaching French in Egypt, and told her pupils NOT to pronounce the "r", that in France, people do not pronounce the "r". That's completely False. We do pronounce the "r"'s, but its pronounced "airgh" not "arr" (as in English).
So, is she teaching her pupils an Egyptian French?? You see how ludicrous you sound??
One teacher (in Egypt) who taught english used to tell her pupils to "Uns-war" (Answer) the questions. That's how she'd say "answer". Was she speaking an Egyptian English? Or was that just plain ignorance from her part!!???
You didn't understand what imikhail meant. Copts used to author and write in Greek when they understood Greek fully, but they didn't pronounce it the way Greeks did. That never happened. PERIOD. 1500 years later they restarted writing in Greek (I guess less than 1500 actually) mainly using some or even plenty of words, out of context perhaps, out of meaning order perhaps, and still they didn't pronounce it as the Greeks did. PERIOD.
Zoxsasi if we apply your principle in pronouncing Greek the valid way (that Greeks do, and forget how Coptic should use the same letters) then what happens to the hymns tenen o;en - acwmen? One verse we will spend time pronouncing letters one way, and the very next verse we pronounce them differently? A joke, right? In ari'alin - O Kirioc we will do that in no time because words are mixed together in the very same verse!!!
Oujai qen `P[C