1. I asked you what you meant by "WELCOME" and "acceptance" not accomodating!
They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario: A homosexual comes into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, raises arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not accepting the Church's teachings.
2. You didn't answer the second question.
I believe I already answered this question through the scenario I presented.
I fail to see how we've been 'going around in circles'. I addressed your responses in my last post and then asked you for the justifications of the claims you made. Now if you can't justify those claims then say so, but don't base our present discussion on what I've written almost six months ago then claim that my "questions" have been answered. That's absurd and insulting to my intelligence.
At the very least acknowledge that the points I've made about homosexuality not being a choice and clearly not being caused by a "seed planted by the devil, watered with attention".
1. I asked you what you meant by "WELCOME" and "acceptance" not accomodating!
They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario: A homosexual comes into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, raises arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not accepting the Church's teachings.
That's great! Let me just get rid of half the youth who think dating, smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. is OK no matter how many times abouna talks to them. Wow, church is going to be amazing without all those annoying kids listening to Tupac and what not.
I really hate this "it's not a choice argument." I mean is someone literally grabbing your arms and forcing you to hug other men and do other things I won't describe? If not, then it is your choice and yours only.
If you want to use the tired genetic argument (which is just as silly), listen to this: Some researchers say that there is a genetic predisposition for alcoholism. . .shall I now say alcoholism is fine and dandy? Certainly not! People struggle to overcome it whether it is genetic or not.
Stop making excuses, carry your cross and follow Him.
1. I asked you what you meant by "WELCOME" and "acceptance" not accomodating!
They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario: A homosexual com raises es into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not w the Church's teachings.
That's great! Let me just get rid of half the youth who think dating, smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. is OK no matter how many times abouna talks to them. Wow, church is going to be amazing without all those annoying kids listening to Tupac and what not.
Your logic is silly.
Really?
And those kids demand that the Church needs to change its views because all the things you mentioned are just norms and are acceptable and the bible does teach that it is OK to smoke, date,curse and drink? Do they also site medical evidence to show that cursing is OK or smoking is a lifestyle?
Please read my post carefully before rediculing it.
I have to agree with Unworthy 1 your logic is not only silly but you don't seem to have an ounce of compassion on this issue. Furthermore 'not welcoming homosexuals into the church' is not at all present in any of those verses. and your solution for that scenario you offered is a mere opinion, one of which many Coptic clergy I've spoken to in no way agree with. But maybe you're right and they're wrong. Why don't you just make you're own church and only invite people who have no addictions, who don't swear, drink or fornicate, or lust in their heart. Champion, you're going to have a very empty church.
"At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church.." LOL
Unworthy1,
You hate an argument that's not actually being made. No one is arguing that sexual behavior is not controllable. The tendency or state of attraction is what can't be chosen. For example did you chose to be a heterosexual? Most probably not. Like wise people who are homosexual or bisexual don't chose who they want to be attracted to. In addition it is actually inconclusive what the cause of homosexuality is. I think you're confusing "excuses" for a lack of understanding.
I have to agree with Unworthy 1 your logic is not only silly but you don't seem to have an ounce of compassion on this issue. Furthermore 'not welcoming homosexuals into the church' is not at all present in any of those verses. and your solution for that scenario you offered is a mere opinion, one of which many Coptic clergy I've spoken to in no way agree with. But maybe you're right and they're wrong. Why don't you just make you're own church and only invite people who have no addictions, who don't swear, drink or fornicate, or lust in their heart. Champion, you're going to have a very empty church.
"At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church.." LOL
Unworthy1,
You hate an argument that's not actually being made. No one is arguing that sexual behavior is not controllable. The tendency or state of attraction is what can't be chosen. For example did you chose to be a heterosexual? Most probably not. Like wise people who are homosexual or bisexual don't chose who they want to be attracted to. In addition it is actually inconclusive what the cause of homosexuality is. I think you're confusing "excuses" for a lack of understanding.
Cy
If my logic is silly as you say, why don't you tell us how should we welcome homosexuals? After all you have talked to many clergy (hopefully Coptic Orthodox) and you must have good input.
So, I welcome your thoughts on how should we at Church welcome homosexuals. Please share with us
1. I asked you what you meant by "WELCOME" and "acceptance" not accomodating!
They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario: A homosexual comes into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, raises arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not accepting the Church's teachings.
That's great! Let me just get rid of half the youth who think dating, smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. is OK no matter how many times abouna talks to them. Wow, church is going to be amazing without all those annoying kids listening to Tupac and what not.
Your logic is silly.
His logic is perfectly valid. Unlike openly homosexuals, most youth that are drinking, cursing etc. know that theyre wrong but do it anyway. These youth do not, however, wish to change The Church's position on drinking and cursing.
There's a problem with sinning, but sinners are able to forgiven. False teachings, however, are far more dangerous.
"Shelter the sinner if it brings you no harm. Through this you will encourage him toward repentance and reform — and attract the Lord’s mercy to yourself."
"Do not annoy or hate anyone – neither for faith, nor for his evil deeds… If you want to convert someone to truth, then grieve over him, with tears and love say a word or two to him, but do not burst out in anger, and may he not see any sign of hatred on your part, because love is not able to hate, or become irritated, or reproach anyone with passion…"
~ St. Isaac the Syrian
If we don't plan to let homosexuals in the Church unless they change their minds, shouldn't we at least be working very hard to convince them to change their minds? Pointing to the Bible and saying "I know it doesn't feel wrong, but it actually is because St. Paul says so" is a doomed approach. You will make the person doubt the Bible's wisdom, not their own experience of homosexuality.
More compassion and sensitivity is needed I think. You aren't likely to convince many people by Bible bashing and being coldly indifferent.
That's my 2c. I don't the time for a massive discussion now though.
"Shelter the sinner if it brings you no harm. Through this you will encourage him toward repentance and reform — and attract the Lord’s mercy to yourself."
"Do not annoy or hate anyone – neither for faith, nor for his evil deeds… If you want to convert someone to truth, then grieve over him, with tears and love say a word or two to him, but do not burst out in anger, and may he not see any sign of hatred on your part, because love is not able to hate, or become irritated, or reproach anyone with passion…"
~ St. Isaac the Syrian
If we don't plan to let homosexuals in the Church unless they change their minds, shouldn't we at least be working very hard to convince them to change their minds? Pointing to the Bible and saying "I know it doesn't feel wrong, but it actually is because St. Paul says so" is a doomed approach. You will make the person doubt the Bible's wisdom, not their own experience of homosexuality.
More compassion and sensitivity is needed I think. You aren't likely to convince many people by Bible bashing and being coldly indifferent.
That's my 2c. I don't the time for a massive discussion now though.
God bless
Within the Church teachings and the Scriptures:
How can the Church show more compassion towards homosexuality? How can the Church be more sensitive towards homosexuality?
welcoming people regardless of sexual orientation, drinking, cursing, drug use, smoking habits in the first place is a start. To your more recent question, how do you be more sensitive to people who are homosexuals? In my opinion, Education and understanding. Read up on sexual identity, talk to people who are of different sexual orientation than you, read about the sorts of issues that homosexuals face in the social sphere, look up maslow's hierarchy of needs. There are plenty of things that can assist one's understanding and social sensibility toward people from any walk of life. This isn't exhaustive but this is the best I can do at this hour, and its a start.
[quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg144557#msg144557 date=1315827496] Hi Stavroforos,
I appreciate your post, and your opinions and I'll do my best to address them as clearly as I can:
I'm not claiming that the word of god is inferior, I'm saying that it isn't always applicable. How useful are the versus from Leviticus, or any kind of preaching for a homosexual who's depressed or being bullied, or on the verge of suicide?
Sexual Identity is one's orientation and how they perceive and express their sexuality. This is just another way of categorizing a characteristic that influences who people are as individuals.
I'm not saying nurture the 'sin', I'm saying nurture the sinner. The church has been compared to a hospital, if you're not going to have an environment where someone can feel safe then your most likely not going to have any patients. And I think the word nurture can be rather ambiguous. Nurture can very well include social acceptance and having the capacity with in an environment to let people be open \ without judgement.
On the 'god's changing' point. There is actually no way of successfully changing one's sexual orientation by will, at least there are no examples to date. So I think its ironic when free will comes up, when sexuality is not a choice in the first place. If its a sin then its not anyone's problem but the 'sinner'. The only responsibility people have in a church community is to make others feel safe and welcome. Which I can tell you is often not the case. Contributing factors are culture and human nature i guess.
Why is my suggestion of acceptance before preaching flawed? Did god command people to preach first then be socially accommodating later? I must say the story of the tax collector comes to mind...
If people want others to have a relationship with god, they have to be likeable and accommodating for others to listen to them.
Cy
Dear Copticyouth86, Just a small point. I was baffled by this post (as I am reading the thread altogether quite belatedly). Are you Christian before being Coptic? If so, do you go to church? I find it so puzzling that you write God with a small "g", and sexual identity with capital initials. You should I think pay more attention to how you write your statements. Oujai qen `P[C
Dear ebshois_nai_nan, You make a good argument, but I believe you are missing a tiny point. "Sinner" said St. Isaac the Syrian. So as long as those youths acknowledge their sins (as imikhail pointed out) and come to the Church looking for absolution and forgiveness regardless of how many nth times they fall into the same sin, they are welcome. If not, then they are not. Oujai qen `P[C
welcoming people regardless of sexual orientation, drinking, cursing, drug use, smoking habits in the first place is a start. To your more recent question, how do you be more sensitive to people who are homosexuals? In my opinion, Education and understanding. Read up on sexual identity, talk to people who are of different sexual orientation than you, read about the sorts of issues that homosexuals face in the social sphere, look up maslow's hierarchy of needs. There are plenty of things that can assist one's understanding and social sensibility toward people from any walk of life. This isn't exhaustive but this is the best I can do at this hour, and its a start.
Cy
You have not answered my question within the Church and the Scriptural framework. I can read all I want but that is not going to change the Church's stance on homosexuality being a sin.
So please tell me how can the church welcome homosexuals other than telling them that homosexuality is a sin and they need to repent (if they live the homosexual lifestyle).
[quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg144626#msg144626 date=1315900760] No one is arguing that sexual behavior is not controllable. Up to here you're correct. All behavior is learned and all behavior can be controlled to varying degrees.
The tendency or state of attraction is what can't be chosen. For example did you chose to be a heterosexual? Most probably not. Like wise people who are homosexual or bisexual don't chose who they want to be attracted to. In addition it is actually inconclusive what the cause of homosexuality is. I think you're confusing "excuses" for a lack of understanding.
Here is where your logic is faulty. You don't need to choose a natural behavior. You don't need to choose to breathe air or eat food for survival. This is the natural order of things that God chose during the creation of the world. However, sin by its very definition is a choice. It is a choice to go against the natural order that God chose during creation. And we have no excuse to say we didn't know what is natural and what is not. As St Paul said, "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Roman 1:20.
God made us good. We have to choose evil. And it doesn't necessarily mean one has to choose to be homosexual. The choice to sin may be some other sin that resulted in homosexual attraction. St Paul tells us that it comes down to fidelity to God. Sinners chose to abandon God. This is the sin they chose. The result: "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature." Romans 1:26. One can't claim that I am homosexual because I burn with attraction with the same sex and its not my choice. The choice was made. One can't use the consequence of their sin to prove they didn't sin, they were born with homosexual passions or they had no choice in the matter.
Summary: Natural order is a choice made by God since God chooses goodness. And because we are in His image, we are naturally called to goodness. Homosexuality is against the natural order of creation since God made male and female to be attracted to each other. Homosexuality, therefore, is a choice. It is not a choice about sexual orientation. It is a choice to "exchange the truth of God for the lie, and worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." Romans 1:25
1. I asked you what you meant by "WELCOME" and "acceptance" not accomodating!
They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario: A homosexual com raises es into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not w the Church's teachings.
That's great! Let me just get rid of half the youth who think dating, smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. is OK no matter how many times abouna talks to them. Wow, church is going to be amazing without all those annoying kids listening to Tupac and what not.
Your logic is silly.
Really?
And those kids demand that the Church needs to change its views because all the things you mentioned are just norms and are acceptable and the bible does teach that it is OK to smoke, date,curse and drink? Do they also site medical evidence to show that cursing is OK or smoking is a lifestyle?
Please read my post carefully before rediculing it.
Thanks.
Ever heard this argument?
"Weed is natural it comes from the earth. God created it. No where in the Bible does God say you can't smoke. . ." "Science is saying it is healthy for you. . .man the Church is just full of Egyptians!"
--Sounds pretty similar to the homosexual you were painting. Let me just call this kid up and tell him to stop coming to church.
I have to agree with Unworthy 1 your logic is not only silly but you don't seem to have an ounce of compassion on this issue. Furthermore 'not welcoming homosexuals into the church' is not at all present in any of those verses. and your solution for that scenario you offered is a mere opinion, one of which many Coptic clergy I've spoken to in no way agree with. But maybe you're right and they're wrong. Why don't you just make you're own church and only invite people who have no addictions, who don't swear, drink or fornicate, or lust in their heart. Champion, you're going to have a very empty church.
"At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church.." LOL
Unworthy1,
You hate an argument that's not actually being made. No one is arguing that sexual behavior is not controllable. The tendency or state of attraction is what can't be chosen. For example did you chose to be a heterosexual? Most probably not. Like wise people who are homosexual or bisexual don't chose who they want to be attracted to. In addition it is actually inconclusive what the cause of homosexuality is. I think you're confusing "excuses" for a lack of understanding.
Cy
If my logic is silly as you say, why don't you tell us how should we welcome homosexuals? After all you have talked to many clergy (hopefully Coptic Orthodox) and you must have good input.
So, I welcome your thoughts on how should we at Church welcome homosexuals. Please share with us
We welcome them as we welcome all sinners into the church (it isn't limited to the righteous like yourself you know). We try to work with them and guide them to repentance. We hope and pray that as they stand in the church the Word pierces them. No matter how many times they go to abouna he is patient with them and gives them the same answer. He doesn't get fed up with them and say, "there is no hope in you gay man, leave the church and never come back you unrepentant sinner" (although, I'm sure you probably would like to hear that).
1. I asked you what you meant by "WELCOME" and "acceptance" not accomodating!
They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario: A homosexual comes into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, raises arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not accepting the Church's teachings.
That's great! Let me just get rid of half the youth who think dating, smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. is OK no matter how many times abouna talks to them. Wow, church is going to be amazing without all those annoying kids listening to Tupac and what not.
Your logic is silly.
His logic is perfectly valid. Unlike openly homosexuals, most youth that are drinking, cursing etc. know that theyre wrong but do it anyway. These youth do not, however, wish to change The Church's position on drinking and cursing.
There's a problem with sinning, but sinners are able to forgiven. False teachings, however, are far more dangerous. (emphasis mine)
Do you know what perfectly valid logic is? That means if I accept his premise(s) I would HAVE TO ON EVERY OCCASION accept his conclusion. I don't like how that sounds when the conclusion is "you're not welcomed in the church."
Plus how does imikhail's suggestion even work practically? Does someone see this unrepentant gay walking towards church and tell him: "Turn the other way and go home homo." I mean who has the heart to do that (besides imikhail, of course). . .
I have to agree with Unworthy 1 your logic is not only silly but you don't seem to have an ounce of compassion on this issue. Furthermore 'not welcoming homosexuals into the church' is not at all present in any of those verses. and your solution for that scenario you offered is a mere opinion, one of which many Coptic clergy I've spoken to in no way agree with. But maybe you're right and they're wrong. Why don't you just make you're own church and only invite people who have no addictions, who don't swear, drink or fornicate, or lust in their heart. Champion, you're going to have a very empty church.
"At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church.." LOL
Unworthy1,
You hate an argument that's not actually being made. No one is arguing that sexual behavior is not controllable. The tendency or state of attraction is what can't be chosen. For example did you chose to be a heterosexual? Most probably not. Like wise people who are homosexual or bisexual don't chose who they want to be attracted to. In addition it is actually inconclusive what the cause of homosexuality is. I think you're confusing "excuses" for a lack of understanding.
Cy
If my logic is silly as you say, why don't you tell us how should we welcome homosexuals? After all you have talked to many clergy (hopefully Coptic Orthodox) and you must have good input.
So, I welcome your thoughts on how should we at Church welcome homosexuals. Please share with us
We welcome them as we welcome all sinners into the church (it isn't limited to the righteous like yourself you know). We try to work with them and guide them to repentance. We hope and pray that as they stand in the church the Word pierces them. No matter how many times they go to abouna he is patient with them and gives them the same answer. He doesn't get fed up with them and say, "there is no hope in you gay man, leave the church and never come back you unrepentant sinner" (although, I'm sure you probably would like to hear that).
(it isn't limited to the righteous like yourself you know)
Back to the satirical comments ... whatever man.
No matter how many times they go to abouna he is patient with them and gives them the same answer. He doesn't get fed up with them and say, "there is no hope in you gay man, leave the church and never come back you unrepentant sinner".
So your strategy is that even they do not agree with what the priest says and insist that the Church is wrong and has to accept them the way they are, as well as, stirring havoc to change the congregation's view in accepting homosexuality as a fact and not a sin, you will still welcome them. Is that what you are saying?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144648#msg144648 date=1315933206] So your strategy is that even they do not agree with what the priest says and insist that the Church is wrong and has to accept them the way they are, as well as, stirring havoc to change the congregation's view in accepting homosexuality as a fact and not a sin, you will still welcome them. Is that what you are saying?
You added the stirring havoc part and trying to change the congregation's view, not me. In a case like that, I am not wise nor experienced enough to say how the priest should handle it. Actually this usually isn't the case. That actually happens when they don't feel accepted. Then they try to force acceptance because they want to remain Coptic Orthodox but they can't because they won't repent and abouna imikhail is kicking them out of the church. . .so what do they do? They put all their energy into proving imikhail wrong and trying to change the church's stance.
In the end, I believe that our people are grounded in the faith strongly and will not change their minds on a whim.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12337.msg144649#msg144649 date=1315933928] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144648#msg144648 date=1315933206] So your strategy is that even they do not agree with what the priest says and insist that the Church is wrong and has to accept them the way they are, as well as, stirring havoc to change the congregation's view in accepting homosexuality as a fact and not a sin, you will still welcome them. Is that what you are saying?
You added the stirring havoc part and trying to change the congregation's view, not me. In a case like that, I am not wise nor experienced enough to say how the priest should handle it. Actually this usually isn't the case. That actually happens when they don't feel accepted. Then they try to force acceptance because they want to remain Coptic Orthodox but they can't because they won't repent and abouna imikhail is kicking them out of the church. . .so what do they do? They put all their energy into proving imikhail wrong and trying to change the church's stance.
In the end, I believe that our people are grounded in the faith strongly and will not change their minds on a whim.
Well isn't what copticyouth86 doing is trying to change the stance of the Church towards homosexuals and in the process belittling the scriptures? At least that is what I took from this thread, the podcast and the other thread he created for his survey.
May be you have a different interpretation of acceptance of homosexuals. The way homosexuals talk about it is different than what the Church teaches of accepting sinners.
Here is what the mainstream media idea of accepting homosexuality:
"Self-acceptance is about feeling good about yourself and comfortable with your own sexuality. This process is sometimes very difficult, due to societal pressure. As a result, self-acceptance may become a lifelong process as homosexuals try to integrate their lifestyle into an often hostile heterosexual world. " Source
"It is not a Choice When people are born a certain way through no choice of their own -- such as race, or looks, or handicaps -- should they be penalized by society? Is that fair?" Souce
There are hundreds of such quotes about accepting homosexuals.
Is this the kind of acceptance the Church needs to undertake?
I think both Unworthy and imikhail are saying the same thing but in different ways.
Both agree that the Church will not change her view on homosexuality to accomodate and proselytize people. The argument is how do we treat these people who want to be homosexual and Christian.
Unworthy's answer is correct. As lay people, we have to accept our brother as he is and pray that he heals. We can't single them out as a freak since we all sin. All sin is unrighteousness. Judas' sin is no worse than mine and no worse than an unrepentant homosexual. We have all fallen short of the glory of God as St Paul says and no one is without sin.
imikhail's answer is correct. The clergy and the bishops, as stewards of the Church, can impose a punishment of excommunication on these people if they choose to. Some priests take an absolute intolerance stand on these people until they acknowledge their errors. Without absolution, this judgment follows the sinner to eternal life. Some priests take a more middle approach. That is they allow them to come to church but not partake of the sacraments. Again without absolution, this punishment has severe consequence. Some priests take an all inclusive approach. All have sinned. All come for healing medicine. The homosexual sinner needs the same healing medicine as each and everyone else. It's up to the clergy to decide what punishment fits the sin. What they can't do is claim a sin like homosexuality is not a sin.
Rather than fighting on what punishment is allowed or what the Church must do - a judgment reserved for the clergy- let's stick to the discussion and pray to God that He has mercy on us all.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12337.msg144652#msg144652 date=1315935733] I think both Unworthy and imikhail are saying the same thing but in different ways.
Both agree that the Church will not change her view on homosexuality to accomodate and proselytize people. The argument is how do we treat these people who want to be homosexual and Christian.
Unworthy's answer is correct. As lay people, we have to accept our brother as he is and pray that he heals. We can't single them out as a freak since we all sin. All sin is unrighteousness. Judas' sin is no worse than mine and no worse than an unrepentant homosexual. We have all fallen short of the glory of God as St Paul says and no one is without sin.
imikhail's answer is correct. The clergy and the bishops, as stewards of the Church, can impose a punishment of excommunication on these people if they choose to. Some priests take an absolute intolerance stand on these people until they acknowledge their errors. Without absolution, this judgment follows the sinner to eternal life. Some priests take a more middle approach. That is they allow them to come to church but not partake of the sacraments. Again without absolution, this punishment has severe consequence. Some priests take an all inclusive approach. All have sinned. All come for healing medicine. The homosexual sinner needs the same healing medicine as each and everyone else. It's up to the clergy to decide what punishment fits the sin. What they can't do is claim a sin like homosexuality is not a sin.
Rather than fighting on what punishment is allowed or what the Church must do - a judgment reserved for the clergy- let's stick to the discussion and pray to God that He has mercy on us all.
Dear Reminkimi,
I agree with you completely. However the congregation do not have the same scriptural, ritual, ... knowledge as the clergy. They are more susceptible to the whim of the mainstream media and the societal pressures. And the aim of this thread is to make the Coptic community more "acceptable" to homosexuality through believing in its lies.
That is why we should understand the difference between accepting homosexuality and accepting a sinner. In my mind there is a great difference between the two.
imikhail, I'm not so sure the aim of this thread is to make the Coptic community more "acceptable" to homosexuality rather than to make the Coptic community more "acceptable" to Christians struggling with homosexuality. I maybe wrong but I don't think anyone is arguing homosexuality is lawful. Many have already given references to scripture, rhetoric and logic against such a claim. I think the original poster intended to make us aware of how people struggling with homosexuality think and behave. I think he/she went overboard by challenging the Church and scriptures. But we are all here to discuss and learn.
We may not be as knowledgeable as the priest in scripture, ritual and spiritual teachings, but we are all called to follow Christ's example of compassion, forgiveness, long-suffering and brotherly love. If we all exercise Christ's teachings, then no one would be susceptible to mainstream media and societal pressures. Let's be really open about it. We may be contributing to this homosexual mess by not following God's commandments to love. "Love covers a multitude of evils" to us and "Woe to them who call evil good and good evil" to those who push the LGBT agenda.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12337.msg144657#msg144657 date=1315942598] imikhail, I'm not so sure the aim of this thread is to make the Coptic community more "acceptable" to homosexuality rather than to make the Coptic community more "acceptable" to Christians struggling with homosexuality. I maybe wrong but I don't think anyone is arguing homosexuality is lawful. Many have already given references to scripture, rhetoric and logic against such a claim. I think the original poster intended to make us aware of how people struggling with homosexuality think and behave. I think he/she went overboard by challenging the Church and scriptures. But we are all here to discuss and learn.
We may not be as knowledgeable as the priest in scripture, ritual and spiritual teachings, but we are all called to follow Christ's example of compassion, forgiveness, long-suffering and brotherly love. If we all exercise Christ's teachings, then no one would be susceptible to mainstream media and societal pressures. Let's be really open about it. We may be contributing to this homosexual mess by not following God's commandments to love. "Love covers a multitude of evils" to us and "Woe to them who call evil good and good evil" to those who push the LGBT agenda.
Again, God have mercy on us ALL.
Thanks Reminkimi .. I appreciate your sound of reason.
My favourite part is how the guy first of all doesn't even know if Corinthians is in the New Testament or not...not judging but clearly this guy then didn't do his homework to see what our Bible even said about this issue. Next, when the other guy (sry forgot his name) starts talking about 1 Corinthians, the other guy interjects and says something to the effect of "well we shouldn't really look at it from a biblical point of view but more from a humanitarian point of view..." huh? So if what the bible and the church is outdated and wrong and it doesn't matter what they are saying why are you trying to win over the Church which is founded on the Bible?? You realize that you are asking the Church to give up what the Apostles wrote and taught us since day one because a certain few individuals want to live a certain lifestyle, right?
On the other hand, Christians do often cite...: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
...as proof of God hating homosexuality, but as one orthodox priest who was discussing this issue with me told me, God feels the same way about it as drunkness or fornication or extortioners...
which in laymens terms means that whether you are in a lustful relationship/engagement with a member of the same sex or different sex, whether you are getting drunk every friday night at the bar, whether you are a corrupt politician, if you don't change your ways, you are not going to inherit God's kingdom and that applies for all of us across the board.
Do you expect the Church to start saying "well its ok for drunks to have their fun once every friday night"....as youth they were rambunctious and loved to get intro trouble from the get go, they need their release somewhere! Friday night is allowed for getting drunk!" Do you expect the Church to allow the corrupt politician who says "but its part of my job! I'm a politician!" (and no of course not all of them are corrupt ;))
No, then why do you expect the Church to change its position towards homosexuality?
Theres also a difference between someone who is or who feels they are gay versus someone who goes the extra step and acts on their impulses...I may find my next door neighbour's daughter extremely beautiful but if I go and engage in a sexual relationship with her when I am not faithfully married to her...its clearly cut and dry sin.
Having said this, if there is someone who is/feels gay, there is no question that the members of the Church should still love and make this person feel welcome. But if you come with your homosexual baggage clearly visible then that is a problem. It's the same problem as when a loose youth or an unfaithful husband/wife comes to church bringing in their "loose living" or "drunknesses" or whatever baggage..AND being proud of it saying there is nothing wrong with it.
Yes, the Church deals with ourr baggage but theres something your forgetting....its called confession. So we slipped in this sin or that sin, so you got drunk on another friday night and after you felt awful about it...but you know where to go; you know that God can and does forgive us because we're weak. So we confess our sins, God picks us up, dusts off our pants and we try with God's grace to walk on His Path rather than following our own desires..THAT my friend is the difference between our (Coptic) Orthodox Church accpeting all of us with whatever sins and baggage we have and helping us live purely, and the worldly 'humanistic' model so to speak which triumphs sin. I'm sorry if this post seemed harsh at all but in my opinion it was very fair...I didn't just rant against those living an actively homosexual life...and as other posters have written, may God have mercy on all of us, cuz we're all sinners.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12337.msg144676#msg144676 date=1315958567] My favourite part is how the guy first of all doesn't even know if Corinthians is in the New Testament or not...not judging but clearly this guy then didn't do his homework to see what our Bible even said about this issue. Next, when the other guy (sry forgot his name) starts talking about 1 Corinthians, the other guy interjects and says something to the effect of "well we shouldn't really look at it from a biblical point of view but more from a humanitarian point of view..." huh? So if what the bible and the church is outdated and wrong and it doesn't matter what they are saying why are you trying to win over the Church which is founded on the Bible?? You realize that you are asking the Church to give up what the Apostles wrote and taught us since day one because a certain few individuals want to live a certain lifestyle, right?
On the other hand, Christians do often cite...: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
...as proof of God hating homosexuality, but as one orthodox priest who was discussing this issue with me told me, God feels the same way about it as drunkness or fornication or extortioners...
which in laymens terms means that whether you are in a lustful relationship/engagement with a member of the same sex or different sex, whether you are getting drunk every friday night at the bar, whether you are a corrupt politician, if you don't change your ways, you are not going to inherit God's kingdom and that applies for all of us across the board.
Do you expect the Church to start saying "well its ok for drunks to have their fun once every friday night"....as youth they were rambunctious and loved to get intro trouble from the get go, they need their release somewhere! Friday night is allowed for getting drunk!" Do you expect the Church to allow the corrupt politician who says "but its part of my job! I'm a politician!" (and no of course not all of them are corrupt ;))
No, then why do you expect the Church to change its position towards homosexuality?
Theres also a difference between someone who is or who feels they are gay versus someone who goes the extra step and acts on their impulses...I may find my next door neighbour's daughter extremely beautiful but if I go and engage in a sexual relationship with her when I am not faithfully married to her...its clearly cut and dry sin.
Having said this, if there is someone who is/feels gay, there is no question that the members of the Church should still love and make this person feel welcome. But if you come with your homosexual baggage clearly visible then that is a problem. It's the same problem as when a loose youth or an unfaithful husband/wife comes to church bringing in their "loose living" or "drunknesses" or whatever baggage..AND being proud of it saying there is nothing wrong with it.
Yes, the Church deals with ourr baggage but theres something your forgetting....its called confession. So we slipped in this sin or that sin, so you got drunk on another friday night and after you felt awful about it...but you know where to go; you know that God can and does forgive us because we're weak. So we confess our sins, God picks us up, dusts off our pants and we try with God's grace to walk on His Path rather than following our own desires..THAT my friend is the difference between our (Coptic) Orthodox Church accpeting all of us with whatever sins and baggage we have and helping us live purely, and the worldly 'humanistic' model so to speak which triumphs sin. I'm sorry if this post seemed harsh at all but in my opinion it was very fair...I didn't just rant against those living an actively homosexual life...and as other posters have written, may God have mercy on all of us, cuz we're all sinners.
I agree with what you have said Timothym and what is more is that God is prefect and wants growth that isn't in corruption. I don't see Homosexuality as a rightous growth, unlike between a man and a woman. I think God's love is in connection with the law, as the law tests our loyality to God, then Jesus Christ's commandments test our love to God.
Comments
A homosexual comes into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, raises arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not accepting the Church's teachings. I believe I already answered this question through the scenario I presented.
I fail to see how we've been 'going around in circles'. I addressed your responses in my last post and then asked you for the justifications of the claims you made. Now if you can't justify those claims then say so, but don't base our present discussion on what I've written almost six months ago then claim that my "questions" have been answered. That's absurd and insulting to my intelligence.
At the very least acknowledge that the points I've made about homosexuality not being a choice and clearly not being caused by a "seed planted by the devil, watered with attention".
Cy
you say? So again I ask you where does your authority come from? Or are you willing to concede that you're merely expressing a baseless opinion?
Cy
Imikhail,
you say? So again I ask you where does your authority come from? Or are you willing to concede that you're merely expressing a baseless opinion?
Cy
I have already answered this and gave you reference. Here it is again in case you missed it.
The Church and the Scriptures.
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,11073.msg134066.html#msg134066
Are you saying that the verses in the link are not right or did you fail to comprehend the text?
Please let me know which is it and I will try to help you. I will repeat again what I said before for emphasis' sake:
Homosexuals are not welcome in the Church unless they recognize that Homosexuality is a sin. Period
No accommodation for homosexuals unless they understand and profess that Homosexuality is a sin
No acceptance in the Church of homoexuals unless they understand and profess that Homosexuality is a sin
If you need to understand what I mean by the statements above, please refer to my above posts (27 and 31)
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12337.msg144603#msg144603 date=1315879469] They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario:
A homosexual comes into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, raises arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not accepting the Church's teachings.
That's great! Let me just get rid of half the youth who think dating, smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. is OK no matter how many times abouna talks to them. Wow, church is going to be amazing without all those annoying kids listening to Tupac and what not.
Your logic is silly.
If you want to use the tired genetic argument (which is just as silly), listen to this: Some researchers say that there is a genetic predisposition for alcoholism. . .shall I now say alcoholism is fine and dandy? Certainly not! People struggle to overcome it whether it is genetic or not.
Stop making excuses, carry your cross and follow Him.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144605#msg144605 date=1315879966]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12337.msg144603#msg144603 date=1315879469] They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario:
A homosexual com raises es into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not w the Church's teachings.
That's great! Let me just get rid of half the youth who think dating, smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. is OK no matter how many times abouna talks to them. Wow, church is going to be amazing without all those annoying kids listening to Tupac and what not.
Your logic is silly.
Really?
And those kids demand that the Church needs to change its views because all the things you mentioned are just norms and are acceptable and the bible does teach that it is OK to smoke, date,curse and drink? Do they also site medical evidence to show that cursing is OK or smoking is a lifestyle?
Please read my post carefully before rediculing it.
Thanks.
I have to agree with Unworthy 1 your logic is not only silly but you don't seem to have an ounce of compassion on this issue. Furthermore 'not welcoming homosexuals into the church' is not at all present in any of those verses. and your solution for that scenario you offered is a mere opinion, one of which many Coptic clergy I've spoken to in no way agree with. But maybe you're right and they're wrong. Why don't you just make you're own church and only invite people who have no addictions, who don't swear, drink or fornicate, or lust in their heart. Champion, you're going to have a very empty church.
"At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church.." LOL
Unworthy1,
You hate an argument that's not actually being made. No one is arguing that sexual behavior is not controllable. The tendency or state of attraction is what can't be chosen. For example did you chose to be a heterosexual? Most probably not. Like wise people who are homosexual or bisexual don't chose who they want to be attracted to. In addition it is actually inconclusive what the cause of homosexuality is. I think you're confusing "excuses" for a lack of understanding.
Cy
Imikhail,
I have to agree with Unworthy 1 your logic is not only silly but you don't seem to have an ounce of compassion on this issue. Furthermore 'not welcoming homosexuals into the church' is not at all present in any of those verses. and your solution for that scenario you offered is a mere opinion, one of which many Coptic clergy I've spoken to in no way agree with. But maybe you're right and they're wrong. Why don't you just make you're own church and only invite people who have no addictions, who don't swear, drink or fornicate, or lust in their heart. Champion, you're going to have a very empty church.
"At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church.." LOL
Unworthy1,
You hate an argument that's not actually being made. No one is arguing that sexual behavior is not controllable. The tendency or state of attraction is what can't be chosen. For example did you chose to be a heterosexual? Most probably not. Like wise people who are homosexual or bisexual don't chose who they want to be attracted to. In addition it is actually inconclusive what the cause of homosexuality is. I think you're confusing "excuses" for a lack of understanding.
Cy
If my logic is silly as you say, why don't you tell us how should we welcome homosexuals? After all you have talked to many clergy (hopefully Coptic Orthodox) and you must have good input.
So, I welcome your thoughts on how should we at Church welcome homosexuals. Please share with us
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144605#msg144605 date=1315879966]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12337.msg144603#msg144603 date=1315879469] They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario:
A homosexual comes into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, raises arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not accepting the Church's teachings.
That's great! Let me just get rid of half the youth who think dating, smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. is OK no matter how many times abouna talks to them. Wow, church is going to be amazing without all those annoying kids listening to Tupac and what not.
Your logic is silly.
His logic is perfectly valid. Unlike openly homosexuals, most youth that are drinking, cursing etc. know that theyre wrong but do it anyway. These youth do not, however, wish to change
The Church's position on drinking and cursing.
There's a problem with sinning, but sinners are able to forgiven. False teachings, however, are far more dangerous.
If we don't plan to let homosexuals in the Church unless they change their minds, shouldn't we at least be working very hard to convince them to change their minds? Pointing to the Bible and saying "I know it doesn't feel wrong, but it actually is because St. Paul says so" is a doomed approach. You will make the person doubt the Bible's wisdom, not their own experience of homosexuality.
More compassion and sensitivity is needed I think. You aren't likely to convince many people by Bible bashing and being coldly indifferent.
That's my 2c. I don't the time for a massive discussion now though.
God bless
If we don't plan to let homosexuals in the Church unless they change their minds, shouldn't we at least be working very hard to convince them to change their minds? Pointing to the Bible and saying "I know it doesn't feel wrong, but it actually is because St. Paul says so" is a doomed approach. You will make the person doubt the Bible's wisdom, not their own experience of homosexuality.
More compassion and sensitivity is needed I think. You aren't likely to convince many people by Bible bashing and being coldly indifferent.
That's my 2c. I don't the time for a massive discussion now though.
God bless
Within the Church teachings and the Scriptures:
How can the Church show more compassion towards homosexuality?
How can the Church be more sensitive towards homosexuality?
welcoming people regardless of sexual orientation, drinking, cursing, drug use, smoking habits in the first place is a start. To your more recent question, how do you be more sensitive to people who are homosexuals? In my opinion, Education and understanding. Read up on sexual identity, talk to people who are of different sexual orientation than you, read about the sorts of issues that homosexuals face in the social sphere, look up maslow's hierarchy of needs. There are plenty of things that can assist one's understanding and social sensibility toward people from any walk of life. This isn't exhaustive but this is the best I can do at this hour, and its a start.
Cy
Hi Stavroforos,
I appreciate your post, and your opinions and I'll do my best to address them as clearly as I can:
I'm not claiming that the word of god is inferior, I'm saying that it isn't always applicable. How useful are the versus from Leviticus, or any kind of preaching for a homosexual who's depressed or being bullied, or on the verge of suicide?
Sexual Identity is one's orientation and how they perceive and express their sexuality. This is just another way of categorizing a characteristic that influences who people are as individuals.
(http://www.ucl.ac.uk/support-pages/lgb/lgb-information-pages/sexuality_and_identity)
I'm not saying nurture the 'sin', I'm saying nurture the sinner. The church has been compared to a hospital, if you're not going to have an environment where someone can feel safe then your most likely not going to have any patients. And I think the word nurture can be rather ambiguous. Nurture can very well include social acceptance and having the capacity with in an environment to let people be open \ without judgement.
On the 'god's changing' point. There is actually no way of successfully changing one's sexual orientation by will, at least there are no examples to date. So I think its ironic when free will comes up, when sexuality is not a choice in the first place. If its a sin then its not anyone's problem but the 'sinner'. The only responsibility people have in a church community is to make others feel safe and welcome. Which I can tell you is often not the case. Contributing factors are culture and human nature i guess.
Why is my suggestion of acceptance before preaching flawed? Did god command people to preach first then be socially accommodating later? I must say the story of the tax collector comes to mind...
If people want others to have a relationship with god, they have to be likeable and accommodating for others to listen to them.
Cy
Dear Copticyouth86,
Just a small point. I was baffled by this post (as I am reading the thread altogether quite belatedly). Are you Christian before being Coptic? If so, do you go to church? I find it so puzzling that you write God with a small "g", and sexual identity with capital initials. You should I think pay more attention to how you write your statements.
Oujai qen `P[C
You make a good argument, but I believe you are missing a tiny point. "Sinner" said St. Isaac the Syrian. So as long as those youths acknowledge their sins (as imikhail pointed out) and come to the Church looking for absolution and forgiveness regardless of how many nth times they fall into the same sin, they are welcome. If not, then they are not.
Oujai qen `P[C
Imikhail,
welcoming people regardless of sexual orientation, drinking, cursing, drug use, smoking habits in the first place is a start. To your more recent question, how do you be more sensitive to people who are homosexuals? In my opinion, Education and understanding. Read up on sexual identity, talk to people who are of different sexual orientation than you, read about the sorts of issues that homosexuals face in the social sphere, look up maslow's hierarchy of needs. There are plenty of things that can assist one's understanding and social sensibility toward people from any walk of life. This isn't exhaustive but this is the best I can do at this hour, and its a start.
Cy
You have not answered my question within the Church and the Scriptural framework. I can read all I want but that is not going to change the Church's stance on homosexuality being a sin.
So please tell me how can the church welcome homosexuals other than telling them that homosexuality is a sin and they need to repent (if they live the homosexual lifestyle).
No one is arguing that sexual behavior is not controllable.
Up to here you're correct. All behavior is learned and all behavior can be controlled to varying degrees. Here is where your logic is faulty. You don't need to choose a natural behavior. You don't need to choose to breathe air or eat food for survival. This is the natural order of things that God chose during the creation of the world. However, sin by its very definition is a choice. It is a choice to go against the natural order that God chose during creation. And we have no excuse to say we didn't know what is natural and what is not. As St Paul said, "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Roman 1:20.
God made us good. We have to choose evil. And it doesn't necessarily mean one has to choose to be homosexual. The choice to sin may be some other sin that resulted in homosexual attraction. St Paul tells us that it comes down to fidelity to God. Sinners chose to abandon God. This is the sin they chose. The result: "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature." Romans 1:26. One can't claim that I am homosexual because I burn with attraction with the same sex and its not my choice. The choice was made. One can't use the consequence of their sin to prove they didn't sin, they were born with homosexual passions or they had no choice in the matter.
Summary: Natural order is a choice made by God since God chooses goodness. And because we are in His image, we are naturally called to goodness. Homosexuality is against the natural order of creation since God made male and female to be attracted to each other. Homosexuality, therefore, is a choice. It is not a choice about sexual orientation. It is a choice to "exchange the truth of God for the lie, and worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." Romans 1:25
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12337.msg144616#msg144616 date=1315892582]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144605#msg144605 date=1315879966]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12337.msg144603#msg144603 date=1315879469] They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario:
A homosexual com raises es into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not w the Church's teachings.
That's great! Let me just get rid of half the youth who think dating, smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. is OK no matter how many times abouna talks to them. Wow, church is going to be amazing without all those annoying kids listening to Tupac and what not.
Your logic is silly.
Really?
And those kids demand that the Church needs to change its views because all the things you mentioned are just norms and are acceptable and the bible does teach that it is OK to smoke, date,curse and drink? Do they also site medical evidence to show that cursing is OK or smoking is a lifestyle?
Please read my post carefully before rediculing it.
Thanks.
Ever heard this argument?
"Weed is natural it comes from the earth. God created it. No where in the Bible does God say you can't smoke. . ."
"Science is saying it is healthy for you. . .man the Church is just full of Egyptians!"
--Sounds pretty similar to the homosexual you were painting. Let me just call this kid up and tell him to stop coming to church.
[quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg144626#msg144626 date=1315900760]
Imikhail,
I have to agree with Unworthy 1 your logic is not only silly but you don't seem to have an ounce of compassion on this issue. Furthermore 'not welcoming homosexuals into the church' is not at all present in any of those verses. and your solution for that scenario you offered is a mere opinion, one of which many Coptic clergy I've spoken to in no way agree with. But maybe you're right and they're wrong. Why don't you just make you're own church and only invite people who have no addictions, who don't swear, drink or fornicate, or lust in their heart. Champion, you're going to have a very empty church.
"At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church.." LOL
Unworthy1,
You hate an argument that's not actually being made. No one is arguing that sexual behavior is not controllable. The tendency or state of attraction is what can't be chosen. For example did you chose to be a heterosexual? Most probably not. Like wise people who are homosexual or bisexual don't chose who they want to be attracted to. In addition it is actually inconclusive what the cause of homosexuality is. I think you're confusing "excuses" for a lack of understanding.
Cy
If my logic is silly as you say, why don't you tell us how should we welcome homosexuals? After all you have talked to many clergy (hopefully Coptic Orthodox) and you must have good input.
So, I welcome your thoughts on how should we at Church welcome homosexuals. Please share with us
We welcome them as we welcome all sinners into the church (it isn't limited to the righteous like yourself you know). We try to work with them and guide them to repentance. We hope and pray that as they stand in the church the Word pierces them. No matter how many times they go to abouna he is patient with them and gives them the same answer. He doesn't get fed up with them and say, "there is no hope in you gay man, leave the church and never come back you unrepentant sinner" (although, I'm sure you probably would like to hear that).
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12337.msg144616#msg144616 date=1315892582]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144605#msg144605 date=1315879966]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12337.msg144603#msg144603 date=1315879469] They are not welcome if they do not acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin. Let me create a scenario:
A homosexual comes into the church and say that he is homosexual and that he believes it is ok for God created him that way. Let's say the church priest sat down with him and explained that homosexuality is a sin and that he needs to not act on his desires. After a while, that person still does not listen, raises arguments from the medical societies, social acceptance and say that the Church has to change its views because certainly God is an all loving God.
At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church for he insists on his views and is not accepting the Church's teachings.
That's great! Let me just get rid of half the youth who think dating, smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. is OK no matter how many times abouna talks to them. Wow, church is going to be amazing without all those annoying kids listening to Tupac and what not.
Your logic is silly.
His logic is perfectly valid. Unlike openly homosexuals, most youth that are drinking, cursing etc. know that theyre wrong but do it anyway. These youth do not, however, wish to change
The Church's position on drinking and cursing.
There's a problem with sinning, but sinners are able to forgiven. False teachings, however, are far more dangerous.
(emphasis mine)
Do you know what perfectly valid logic is? That means if I accept his premise(s) I would HAVE TO ON EVERY OCCASION accept his conclusion. I don't like how that sounds when the conclusion is "you're not welcomed in the church."
Plus how does imikhail's suggestion even work practically? Does someone see this unrepentant gay walking towards church and tell him: "Turn the other way and go home homo." I mean who has the heart to do that (besides imikhail, of course). . .
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144627#msg144627 date=1315901931]
[quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg144626#msg144626 date=1315900760]
Imikhail,
I have to agree with Unworthy 1 your logic is not only silly but you don't seem to have an ounce of compassion on this issue. Furthermore 'not welcoming homosexuals into the church' is not at all present in any of those verses. and your solution for that scenario you offered is a mere opinion, one of which many Coptic clergy I've spoken to in no way agree with. But maybe you're right and they're wrong. Why don't you just make you're own church and only invite people who have no addictions, who don't swear, drink or fornicate, or lust in their heart. Champion, you're going to have a very empty church.
"At that point, I say that this person is not welcome in the Church.." LOL
Unworthy1,
You hate an argument that's not actually being made. No one is arguing that sexual behavior is not controllable. The tendency or state of attraction is what can't be chosen. For example did you chose to be a heterosexual? Most probably not. Like wise people who are homosexual or bisexual don't chose who they want to be attracted to. In addition it is actually inconclusive what the cause of homosexuality is. I think you're confusing "excuses" for a lack of understanding.
Cy
If my logic is silly as you say, why don't you tell us how should we welcome homosexuals? After all you have talked to many clergy (hopefully Coptic Orthodox) and you must have good input.
So, I welcome your thoughts on how should we at Church welcome homosexuals. Please share with us
We welcome them as we welcome all sinners into the church (it isn't limited to the righteous like yourself you know). We try to work with them and guide them to repentance. We hope and pray that as they stand in the church the Word pierces them. No matter how many times they go to abouna he is patient with them and gives them the same answer. He doesn't get fed up with them and say, "there is no hope in you gay man, leave the church and never come back you unrepentant sinner" (although, I'm sure you probably would like to hear that).
Back to the satirical comments ... whatever man. So your strategy is that even they do not agree with what the priest says and insist that the Church is wrong and has to accept them the way they are, as well as, stirring havoc to change the congregation's view in accepting homosexuality as a fact and not a sin, you will still welcome them. Is that what you are saying?
So your strategy is that even they do not agree with what the priest says and insist that the Church is wrong and has to accept them the way they are, as well as, stirring havoc to change the congregation's view in accepting homosexuality as a fact and not a sin, you will still welcome them. Is that what you are saying?
You added the stirring havoc part and trying to change the congregation's view, not me. In a case like that, I am not wise nor experienced enough to say how the priest should handle it. Actually this usually isn't the case. That actually happens when they don't feel accepted. Then they try to force acceptance because they want to remain Coptic Orthodox but they can't because they won't repent and abouna imikhail is kicking them out of the church. . .so what do they do? They put all their energy into proving imikhail wrong and trying to change the church's stance.
In the end, I believe that our people are grounded in the faith strongly and will not change their minds on a whim.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144648#msg144648 date=1315933206]
So your strategy is that even they do not agree with what the priest says and insist that the Church is wrong and has to accept them the way they are, as well as, stirring havoc to change the congregation's view in accepting homosexuality as a fact and not a sin, you will still welcome them. Is that what you are saying?
You added the stirring havoc part and trying to change the congregation's view, not me. In a case like that, I am not wise nor experienced enough to say how the priest should handle it. Actually this usually isn't the case. That actually happens when they don't feel accepted. Then they try to force acceptance because they want to remain Coptic Orthodox but they can't because they won't repent and abouna imikhail is kicking them out of the church. . .so what do they do? They put all their energy into proving imikhail wrong and trying to change the church's stance.
In the end, I believe that our people are grounded in the faith strongly and will not change their minds on a whim.
Well isn't what copticyouth86 doing is trying to change the stance of the Church towards homosexuals and in the process belittling the scriptures? At least that is what I took from this thread, the podcast and the other thread he created for his survey.
May be you have a different interpretation of acceptance of homosexuals. The way homosexuals talk about it is different than what the Church teaches of accepting sinners.
Here is what the mainstream media idea of accepting homosexuality:
"Self-acceptance is about feeling good about yourself and comfortable with your own sexuality. This process is sometimes very difficult, due to societal pressure. As a result, self-acceptance may become a lifelong process as homosexuals try to integrate their lifestyle into an often hostile heterosexual world. " Source
"It is not a Choice
When people are born a certain way through no choice of their own -- such as race, or looks, or handicaps -- should they be penalized by society? Is that fair?"
Souce
There are hundreds of such quotes about accepting homosexuals.
Is this the kind of acceptance the Church needs to undertake?
Both agree that the Church will not change her view on homosexuality to accomodate and proselytize people. The argument is how do we treat these people who want to be homosexual and Christian.
Unworthy's answer is correct. As lay people, we have to accept our brother as he is and pray that he heals. We can't single them out as a freak since we all sin. All sin is unrighteousness. Judas' sin is no worse than mine and no worse than an unrepentant homosexual. We have all fallen short of the glory of God as St Paul says and no one is without sin.
imikhail's answer is correct. The clergy and the bishops, as stewards of the Church, can impose a punishment of excommunication on these people if they choose to. Some priests take an absolute intolerance stand on these people until they acknowledge their errors. Without absolution, this judgment follows the sinner to eternal life. Some priests take a more middle approach. That is they allow them to come to church but not partake of the sacraments. Again without absolution, this punishment has severe consequence. Some priests take an all inclusive approach. All have sinned. All come for healing medicine. The homosexual sinner needs the same healing medicine as each and everyone else. It's up to the clergy to decide what punishment fits the sin. What they can't do is claim a sin like homosexuality is not a sin.
Rather than fighting on what punishment is allowed or what the Church must do - a judgment reserved for the clergy- let's stick to the discussion and pray to God that He has mercy on us all.
I think both Unworthy and imikhail are saying the same thing but in different ways.
Both agree that the Church will not change her view on homosexuality to accomodate and proselytize people. The argument is how do we treat these people who want to be homosexual and Christian.
Unworthy's answer is correct. As lay people, we have to accept our brother as he is and pray that he heals. We can't single them out as a freak since we all sin. All sin is unrighteousness. Judas' sin is no worse than mine and no worse than an unrepentant homosexual. We have all fallen short of the glory of God as St Paul says and no one is without sin.
imikhail's answer is correct. The clergy and the bishops, as stewards of the Church, can impose a punishment of excommunication on these people if they choose to. Some priests take an absolute intolerance stand on these people until they acknowledge their errors. Without absolution, this judgment follows the sinner to eternal life. Some priests take a more middle approach. That is they allow them to come to church but not partake of the sacraments. Again without absolution, this punishment has severe consequence. Some priests take an all inclusive approach. All have sinned. All come for healing medicine. The homosexual sinner needs the same healing medicine as each and everyone else. It's up to the clergy to decide what punishment fits the sin. What they can't do is claim a sin like homosexuality is not a sin.
Rather than fighting on what punishment is allowed or what the Church must do - a judgment reserved for the clergy- let's stick to the discussion and pray to God that He has mercy on us all.
Dear Reminkimi,
I agree with you completely. However the congregation do not have the same scriptural, ritual, ... knowledge as the clergy. They are more susceptible to the whim of the mainstream media and the societal pressures. And the aim of this thread is to make the Coptic community more "acceptable" to homosexuality through believing in its lies.
That is why we should understand the difference between accepting homosexuality and accepting a sinner. In my mind there is a great difference between the two.
I'm not so sure the aim of this thread is to make the Coptic community more "acceptable" to homosexuality rather than to make the Coptic community more "acceptable" to Christians struggling with homosexuality. I maybe wrong but I don't think anyone is arguing homosexuality is lawful. Many have already given references to scripture, rhetoric and logic against such a claim. I think the original poster intended to make us aware of how people struggling with homosexuality think and behave. I think he/she went overboard by challenging the Church and scriptures. But we are all here to discuss and learn.
We may not be as knowledgeable as the priest in scripture, ritual and spiritual teachings, but we are all called to follow Christ's example of compassion, forgiveness, long-suffering and brotherly love. If we all exercise Christ's teachings, then no one would be susceptible to mainstream media and societal pressures. Let's be really open about it. We may be contributing to this homosexual mess by not following God's commandments to love. "Love covers a multitude of evils" to us and "Woe to them who call evil good and good evil" to those who push the LGBT agenda.
Again, God have mercy on us ALL.
imikhail,
I'm not so sure the aim of this thread is to make the Coptic community more "acceptable" to homosexuality rather than to make the Coptic community more "acceptable" to Christians struggling with homosexuality. I maybe wrong but I don't think anyone is arguing homosexuality is lawful. Many have already given references to scripture, rhetoric and logic against such a claim. I think the original poster intended to make us aware of how people struggling with homosexuality think and behave. I think he/she went overboard by challenging the Church and scriptures. But we are all here to discuss and learn.
We may not be as knowledgeable as the priest in scripture, ritual and spiritual teachings, but we are all called to follow Christ's example of compassion, forgiveness, long-suffering and brotherly love. If we all exercise Christ's teachings, then no one would be susceptible to mainstream media and societal pressures. Let's be really open about it. We may be contributing to this homosexual mess by not following God's commandments to love. "Love covers a multitude of evils" to us and "Woe to them who call evil good and good evil" to those who push the LGBT agenda.
Again, God have mercy on us ALL.
Thanks Reminkimi .. I appreciate your sound of reason.
On the other hand, Christians do often cite...: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
...as proof of God hating homosexuality, but as one orthodox priest who was discussing this issue with me told me, God feels the same way about it as drunkness or fornication or extortioners...
which in laymens terms means that whether you are in a lustful relationship/engagement with a member of the same sex or different sex, whether you are getting drunk every friday night at the bar, whether you are a corrupt politician, if you don't change your ways, you are not going to inherit God's kingdom and that applies for all of us across the board.
Do you expect the Church to start saying "well its ok for drunks to have their fun once every friday night"....as youth they were rambunctious and loved to get intro trouble from the get go, they need their release somewhere! Friday night is allowed for getting drunk!" Do you expect the Church to allow the corrupt politician who says "but its part of my job! I'm a politician!" (and no of course not all of them are corrupt ;))
No, then why do you expect the Church to change its position towards homosexuality?
Theres also a difference between someone who is or who feels they are gay versus someone who goes the extra step and acts on their impulses...I may find my next door neighbour's daughter extremely beautiful but if I go and engage in a sexual relationship with her when I am not faithfully married to her...its clearly cut and dry sin.
Having said this, if there is someone who is/feels gay, there is no question that the members of the Church should still love and make this person feel welcome. But if you come with your homosexual baggage clearly visible then that is a problem. It's the same problem as when a loose youth or an unfaithful husband/wife comes to church bringing in their "loose living" or "drunknesses" or whatever baggage..AND being proud of it saying there is nothing wrong with it.
Yes, the Church deals with ourr baggage but theres something your forgetting....its called confession. So we slipped in this sin or that sin, so you got drunk on another friday night and after you felt awful about it...but you know where to go; you know that God can and does forgive us because we're weak. So we confess our sins, God picks us up, dusts off our pants and we try with God's grace to walk on His Path rather than following our own desires..THAT my friend is the difference between our (Coptic) Orthodox Church accpeting all of us with whatever sins and baggage we have and helping us live purely, and the worldly 'humanistic' model so to speak which triumphs sin. I'm sorry if this post seemed harsh at all but in my opinion it was very fair...I didn't just rant against those living an actively homosexual life...and as other posters have written, may God have mercy on all of us, cuz we're all sinners.
My favourite part is how the guy first of all doesn't even know if Corinthians is in the New Testament or not...not judging but clearly this guy then didn't do his homework to see what our Bible even said about this issue. Next, when the other guy (sry forgot his name) starts talking about 1 Corinthians, the other guy interjects and says something to the effect of "well we shouldn't really look at it from a biblical point of view but more from a humanitarian point of view..." huh? So if what the bible and the church is outdated and wrong and it doesn't matter what they are saying why are you trying to win over the Church which is founded on the Bible?? You realize that you are asking the Church to give up what the Apostles wrote and taught us since day one because a certain few individuals want to live a certain lifestyle, right?
On the other hand, Christians do often cite...: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
...as proof of God hating homosexuality, but as one orthodox priest who was discussing this issue with me told me, God feels the same way about it as drunkness or fornication or extortioners...
which in laymens terms means that whether you are in a lustful relationship/engagement with a member of the same sex or different sex, whether you are getting drunk every friday night at the bar, whether you are a corrupt politician, if you don't change your ways, you are not going to inherit God's kingdom and that applies for all of us across the board.
Do you expect the Church to start saying "well its ok for drunks to have their fun once every friday night"....as youth they were rambunctious and loved to get intro trouble from the get go, they need their release somewhere! Friday night is allowed for getting drunk!" Do you expect the Church to allow the corrupt politician who says "but its part of my job! I'm a politician!" (and no of course not all of them are corrupt ;))
No, then why do you expect the Church to change its position towards homosexuality?
Theres also a difference between someone who is or who feels they are gay versus someone who goes the extra step and acts on their impulses...I may find my next door neighbour's daughter extremely beautiful but if I go and engage in a sexual relationship with her when I am not faithfully married to her...its clearly cut and dry sin.
Having said this, if there is someone who is/feels gay, there is no question that the members of the Church should still love and make this person feel welcome. But if you come with your homosexual baggage clearly visible then that is a problem. It's the same problem as when a loose youth or an unfaithful husband/wife comes to church bringing in their "loose living" or "drunknesses" or whatever baggage..AND being proud of it saying there is nothing wrong with it.
Yes, the Church deals with ourr baggage but theres something your forgetting....its called confession. So we slipped in this sin or that sin, so you got drunk on another friday night and after you felt awful about it...but you know where to go; you know that God can and does forgive us because we're weak. So we confess our sins, God picks us up, dusts off our pants and we try with God's grace to walk on His Path rather than following our own desires..THAT my friend is the difference between our (Coptic) Orthodox Church accpeting all of us with whatever sins and baggage we have and helping us live purely, and the worldly 'humanistic' model so to speak which triumphs sin. I'm sorry if this post seemed harsh at all but in my opinion it was very fair...I didn't just rant against those living an actively homosexual life...and as other posters have written, may God have mercy on all of us, cuz we're all sinners.
Well said Timothy
I agree with what you have said Timothym and what is more is that God is prefect and wants growth that isn't in corruption. I don't see Homosexuality as a rightous growth, unlike between a man and a woman. I think God's love is in connection with the law, as the law tests our loyality to God, then Jesus Christ's commandments test our love to God.