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Daniel in Esmo Epchois
Why do some people leave out Daniel in Esmo Epchois?
Comments
Why do some people leave out Daniel in Esmo Epchois?
Maybe because it isn't written in the Psalmodia (at least the version I have).
Oujai
Oujai
Didn't understand what that meant exactly Mina, does that mean "expand and elaborate" or "you've had enough of my nonsense"...
Oujai
Sorry. It just meant that I wrote something that was not supposed to go the :-)
Oujai
Not only that, Daniel 3:88 in the Septuagint version says, "Bless the Lord, Hanaias, Azarias, and Misael; sing hymns and highly exalt him." There is no mention of Daniel in all Septuagint versions.
::) that's the first thing i checked yesterday when ohadece brought it up....
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12385.msg145097#msg145097 date=1316807444]
And as Mina told us once before about the smart brains... the whole hos is in Coptic but they decided to use ka Daniel rather than nem...
Oujai
ahhhhh...you remember......but despite that, i am personally not against it. I do chant the part with daniel added.
Oujai
I don't think you should Mina. That's only my opinion anyway...
Oujai
hehe.......NOW that i understand better and consider other schools and teachings, i choose to sing it.
Oujai
I always view you as a man of principles when it comes to hymns but for some reason you sometimes shock me doing just the opposite... anyway it's up to you
Oujai
well.....sorry to say that you havn't learned the principles i follow yet.
Oujai
What a diplomatic answer...
Oujai
:)
life is not that simple to have a straight answer for everything.....black and white, heaven and earth, life and death......
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12385.msg145105#msg145105 date=1316812105]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12385.msg145104#msg145104 date=1316811474]
I always view you as a man of principles when it comes to hymns but for some reason you sometimes shock me doing just the opposite... anyway it's up to you
Oujai
well.....sorry to say that you havn't learned the principles i follow yet.
You mean the principles where you follow blindly like a sheep without thought as to the actually meaning or significance of the hymn?
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12385.msg145088#msg145088 date=1316791993]
Not only that, Daniel 3:88 in the Septuagint version says, "Bless the Lord, Hanaias, Azarias, and Misael; sing hymns and highly exalt him." There is no mention of Daniel in all Septuagint versions.
(Quoted for emphasis)
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12385.msg145105#msg145105 date=1316812105]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12385.msg145104#msg145104 date=1316811474]
I always view you as a man of principles when it comes to hymns but for some reason you sometimes shock me doing just the opposite... anyway it's up to you
Oujai
well.....sorry to say that you havn't learned the principles i follow yet.
You mean the principles where you follow blindly like a sheep without thought as to the actually meaning or significance of the hymn?
for good reasons, i'll behave and not destroy the thread.....
if it's about the "meaning or significance of the hymn" that you are considering than neither the names of the 3 children or even denial would matter as much as the rest of the paragraphs.
It gets worse every time you explain yourself. After all you're a brother to me, and I hope you don't take my words amiss... I'd like to give myself the liberty of commenting on your statement, but if you've had enough, just tell me straight...
Who on earth would have to, or should judge the importance of mentioning this or that. This is not just a written hymn. This is a passage from the Bible. We sing a PASSAGE FROM THE BIBLE, not a composed hymn. Why do you think it should or shouldn't matter? Don't you think that's a flawed premise?
OUJai
Who on earth would have to, or should judge the importance of mentioning this or that. This is not just a written hymn. This is a passage from the Bible. We sing a PASSAGE FROM THE BIBLE, not a composed hymn. Why do you think it should or shouldn't matter? Don't you think that's a flawed premise?
OUJai
Not that it doesn't as matter--the rest of the hymn gives it its meaning. Yes this is not a composed hymn but it is a HYMN--not a Bible reading. it is a hymn that happened to be taken from the Bible. it is special, it is unique and it is a hymn and not a Bible reading. Many hymns are that way......tub hab3eed leh, look at the first hoos....the last part of the hoos....it is a chapter from Exodus right?! show me in the Bible where that verse is (or rater half of it) in it exact position.
ALSO, in the 2nd hoos: http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/psalms/136.html
do you see Alleluia any where?!
Please specify what you were saying about second and third hos, because I didn't get what you mean...
Oujai
Mina, it's a Bible reading FULL STOP. PRetty much like the singari psalm, the Pauline, and ... etc.
The Pauline and the the psalm--all the Church readings, in their structure right now, when they are chanted they are hymns...but than they are READ--explained to those who do not understand coptic (even thoo we never say the entire coptic text). the reading and the hymn are 2 different.
Please specify what you were saying about second and third hos, because I didn't get what you mean...
Oujai
in the second hoos, it is from the Bible--it is psalm 136 (135 in coptic). i sent you the link. do you see 'alleluia' any where in that text?
in the first hoos--it is taken straight from Exodus. The last part in the hoos (the one rit before the lobsh), is not in the Bible reading. get an psalmody that has references and get the exact reference of the entire hoos and go search for it in the Bible....the last part will not be there in that order.
I appreciate your diligence in trying to justify the addition of Daniel in Ecmou epshoyce of the third canticle.
However, in your justification you have assumed that hymns are different than the scriptures and therefore we are at liberty to modify what the scriptures say just because it is a hymn. No my friend, this should not be so. Hymns are based on the scriptures and should not deviate in their texts from the scriptures.
Let us address the examples you brought up: The readings and the hymns are not different. When we chant the Pauline or the Catholic epistles or the Braxis, we do not change or modify the words. We pray with the same text that is read but we use the Coptic language. If you compare the Coptic Katamaras to the English or the Arabic ones, you will find out they are the same text.
No addition .. no modification to the chanted words.
The ending of any psalm is Alleluia. This Tradition comes from the Old Testament and the Church kept that Tradition. So, whenever a psalm is read or part of a psalm is read Alleluia is the default ending. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleluia]
This is different than adding the word Daniel to the text of a verse.
As Reminkimi pointed out, it was Daniel that is commanding the three Children to praise. So, by adding Daniel to the verse, the meaning, the occasion and the verse itself has changed. Contrast this with adding the word Alleluia to the verses of the second canticle where the verse itself is prayed as it is found in the scripture and then the ending part is added as I explained. The verse you mention is:
"+ The horse and its rider, He has thrown into the sea. “Let us sing to the Lord, for He has triumphed gloriously.”
This is exactly like the Coptic translation of verse Eexodus 15:21. Again EXACTLY.
The verse 15:21 has been split into the phrases of the last two sections of the first canticle prior to the Lobsh.
I understand that the English translations are different for they rely on the Masoretic text of the Old Testament. Our praises are taken from the Coptic translation that is based on the Septuagint.
I can provide an image of the text if someone tells me how to insert images in this forum.
So you see, the Church in its praises keep the scripture text intact without addition nor modification.
DO NOT DO IT DURING THE LITURGY.
i actually work during liturgy...i work part time--8 am to 8 pm sat and sun.....but tomorrow i'll be working remotely from home cuz i have wedding in the middle of the day. i live less than 5 mins to church-walkingg.....
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12385.msg145152#msg145152 date=1316916091]
DO NOT DO IT DURING THE LITURGY.
i actually work during liturgy...i work part time--8 am to 8 pm sat and sun.....but tomorrow i'll be working remotely from home cuz i have wedding in the middle of the day. i live less than 5 mins to church-walkingg.....
God Bless you.