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Coptic Month Pronunciation
Why do you pronounce the Coptic Months according to the Arabic versions of the words and not the actual Coptic words?
Comments
Why do you pronounce the Coptic Months according to the Arabic versions of the words and not the actual Coptic words?
Can you please give example(s)?
Oujai
I know you are not a fan of Greco-Bohairic, but before you accuse GB of everything wrong in the Coptic language, please review your comments.
The names of the Coptic months, as we currently have them, are Arabic transliteration of OB, not GB. Actually it is a mix of OB and GB (which is more proof that there is no one version or dialect of OB).
For example, ;wout in GB would be "Tho oot" (2 syllables). In OB (the popular dialect), it would be "tood". Also, look at mecory. In GB, it would be "Mesoree". In OB, it would be "masora" which became "misra". Misra is closer to masora then mesoree. And the best example is varmo;i. In GB, it is "pharmothi" (pronounced far moo thi). In OB, it would be "barmota". The Arabic "baramoda" is closer to "barmota" then "pharmothi."
So the current Arabic transliteration, and by default the English transliterations, are based more closely to OB than GB.
Copticuser, to answer your question go to this website. The English transliteration is based on the Arabic pronunciation of the Coptic months.
Ophadece,
I know you are not a fan of Greco-Bohairic, but before you accuse GB of everything wrong in the Coptic language, please review your comments.
The names of the Coptic months, as we currently have them, are Arabic transliteration of OB, not GB. Actually it is a mix of OB and GB (which is more proof that there is no one version or dialect of OB).
For example, ;wout in GB would be "Tho oot" (2 syllables). In OB (the popular dialect), it would be "tood". Also, look at mecory. In GB, it would be "Mesoree". In OB, it would be "masora" which became "misra". Misra is closer to masora then mesoree. And the best example is varmo;i. In GB, it is "pharmothi" (pronounced far moo thi). In OB, it would be "barmota". The Arabic "baramoda" is closer to "barmota" then "pharmothi."
So the current Arabic transliteration, and by default the English transliterations, are based more closely to OB than GB.
Copticuser, to answer your question go to this website. The English transliteration is based on the Arabic pronunciation of the Coptic months.
Dear Reminkimi,
I do not want this to turn into a long debate, or a short one for that matter.
The only thing I want to caution you on is that you based your conclusion on a modern way of writing the Coptic months (as in the link you provided). However, this way is not the only way to write the Coptic months, and in my opinion, is a modern way.
In addition, the Arabic way of saying the Coptic months is the way they were said in Upper Egypt and that way persisted till today.
Now, if you try to apply the Greco Bohairic way in reading the the Coptic letters as they are written in Saididc, you will get a different way of pronunciation. However, if you apply the Old Bohairic, the authentic, way of reading the letters, you will get the exact pronunciation (the way they are said nowadays in Egypt).
Thanks and God Bless.
Dear Remenkimi and Copticuser20,
As imikhail elaborately pointed out, the names are Sa'idic. Therefore Baramoda rather than Barmoti, and Mesra not "Masora". Please also note the vowels in authentic Coptic are treated way differently than the flawed Greco-Bohairic teachings, and in many cases, specifically speaking about the letters "o" and "w" are not pronounced as is claimed. Examples are:
mwit - /meet/ as in "Meet Ghamr" (name of a town in upper Egypt), in Sa'idic pronunciation.
ouwrp - /wareb/ as in Bohairic dialect (please note the insertion of a vowel close to the ə in English (as in table, ample, etc)
Ba,oc - /wakhes/ or /wakhos/ in Bohairic.
Oujai qen `P[C
And also people from upper Egypt had the upper hand in transmitting their pronunciation to us (and I argue other dialects) because they were primarily concerned with agriculture, and Nile fluctuations throughout the year.
Oujai qen `P[C
ouwrp - /wareb/ as in Bohairic dialect (please note the insertion of a vowel close to the ə in English (as in table, ample, etc)
Where is the schwa in ouwrp - /wareb/, just out of curiosity?
There are many instances where there is the schwa inserted between two consonants. I am not sure if that answers the question, because as I pointed out earlier, it is inserted as a sound, not as a spelling of a written letter, if that makes it clear.
Oujai qen `P[C
Dear Reminkimi,
I do not want this to turn into a long debate, or a short one for that matter.
Neither do I. So you're saying that the "modern" way to spell these Coptic names is wrong? I checked Mouawad and Crum's dictionaries. The Bohairic names of the months are exactly like the website. You'll have to be a little more specific. Are you saying that Upper Egyptians pronounce Old Bohairic differently than the OB Fr Shenouda and the Cairenes pronounce it? Are you saying that GB is different in upper Egypt and Cairo? So you want to apply Old Bohairic pronunciation norms to Sahidic Coptic? Sahidic pronunciation is different than OB and GB. It's closer to GB than OB. If the Sahidic names are different than the Bohairic (and they are), we can't apply OB rules to Sahidic names if we are to maintain that Sahidic and Bohairic are distinct dialects.
Additionally, even if you applied OB to Sahidic names, it doesn't always give you the same Arabic transliteration. For example, :wout is Bohairic. The Sahidic version is toot. If you apply OB rules, you get "dood" not "toot". But GB and Sahidic both pronounce it "toot". On the other hand, varmou;i in Sahidic is parmoute. In Sahidic, it would be pronounced "parmoute". In proper OB, varmou;i is pronounced "barmouta" and parmoute is pronounced "barmouda". Then the most unusual name is "baramhat". The Bohairic is Vamenw;. In GB, it is pronounced "Phamenoot". There is more than one Sahidic version. The standard Sahidic version is par=mhotp, which is pronounced "paremhotp" in Sahidic. In GB, it is pronounced the same. In OB, it would be "baramhodb". Crum tells us that some Sahidic manuscripts have paremhotp, paremhot, parymhat, pamnhat, and vamenhatp. None of them would be pronounced "baramhat". It is clear that OB proponents seem to apply Bohairic rules to Sahidic inconsistently. (And dare I say "OB rules corrupts Sahidic"?)
The only conclusion we agree about is that the Arabic transliteration is an OB pronunciation of Sahidic words. We can't blame GB for this.
In your reply to imikhail, you show me that you clearly haven't read my post yet. When (or if) you do, would you mind explaining to me what you meant by Greco-Bohairic being closer to Sa'idic than old Bohairic (the way you like it, or authentic Bohairic as I maintain)? I am puzzled.
Oujai qen `P[C
The way the the Coptic months are written in Saiidic are different than the way they are written in Bohairic.
I will post images later to clarify this point.
If we follow the Old Bohairic pronunciation in reading the way the Saiidic months are written, then they match exactly the way the months are pronounced today in Egypt.
Does this make sense?
http://postimage.org/image/2mic8zmec/
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZuYqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA363&dq=coptic+months&hl=en&ei=gcuATtfbAdC_tgfwwLzKCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=coptic months&f=false
You will also notice differences in the way they are written in Bohairic versus how they are written in the link http://copticchurch.net/easter.html.
Thanks.
If these rules are found in OB, then Sahidic names that are pronounced with OB rules, like parymhat, would have to be pronounced "baramhad", not "baramhat". Baramhat is the Arabic transliteration, not "baramhad".
In Sahidic pronunciation, see Plumey's Grammar, the letter p is always pronounced /p/ not /b/, the letter t is always pronounced /t/ not /d/. Therefore, parymhat, which is a Sahidic word, would be pronounced in Sahidic as /paremhat/. Even though it is not a Bohairic word, GB would pronounce it the same way /paremhat/.
Does that clarify things?
And of course /tot/, /thot/ or /toot/ because it is pronounced this way; just like that. No artificialness about t being pronounced /d/ ALL THE WAY.
Ophadece, you can't have it both ways. You can't say OB is natural and flawless and has all of these exceptions to its pronunciation rules while adjudicating that GB's exceptions renders GB flawed and artificial. Your post shows more exceptions to OB's own pronunciation rules. And now we can show that OB attempts to pronounce Sahidic as if it were Bohairic. This, in my opinion, makes OB as flawed (if not more flawed) than any other dialect or linguistic variant, including GB.
And also people from upper Egypt had the upper hand in transmitting their pronunciation to us (and I argue other dialects) because they were primarily concerned with agriculture, and Nile fluctuations throughout the year.
Ok I'll bite. What does agriculture have to do with linguistic progeny, linguistic survival or pronunciation? Are you saying Nile inundation created a social environment where words are pronounced differently? Without agriculture and Nile and inundation would these words have been pronounced differently?
You are the best one to know that there are no specific rules for letters pronunciation as is the case in all languages on earth. Please don't stick to one source, as you can see there are many conflicts between Coptologists according to their resources and experiences. Always critically appraise, and compare...
Oujai qen `P[C
Like how was Kiahk derived/translated to Koiak or Farmothi to Baramouda?
And to be honest, I skipped most of the posts because I am tired of reading these GB and OB debates.
the dau can be pronounced either, t, d or da (dad in Arabic).
Here is another link:
http://postimage.org/image/23foxuww4/
BTW this reference is written in 1969 under St Cyril VI direction. In it you can read the changes that were introduced by the GB.
The short answer: The current Arabic names are derived from Sahidic names of the Coptic months, which in turn are derived from the Ancient Egyptian names of the Coptic names.
Ancient Egyptian names of Coptic months = Sahidic names of Coptic months = Arabic transliteration. Arabic transliteration = Current modern official Arabic names of the Coptic months used in the Coptic Church. Greek names of Coptic months = Bohairic names of Coptic months = Current modern official Coptic names of Coptic months used in the Coptic Church.
So the website is inaccurate. The modern Arabic pronunciation does not equal the Bohairic Names.
PS. I'm sorry I am making the forums tiresome and unproductive by participating (and usually inciting) these GB vs. OB debates.
On a personal note, I would have liked to be more interested in the debate, but clearly that is not your position only. How many people are diligent and steadfast in genuinely wanting to know Coptic language (this is not a criticism by the way.... only my observation)...
Oujai qen `P[C
If you tend to use a word in a special context from one dialect most of the time, it can affect how it is pronounced in other dialects as well. Take for instance the British name: Worcester pronounced as /wɜstər/, I believe it is the same in America, isn't it?
Oujai qen `P[C
Oujai qen `P[C
How many people are diligent and steadfast in genuinely wanting to know Coptic language (this is not a criticism by the way.... only my observation)...
I actually do want to learn about Coptic. Just not from the of debates on this forum. I personally procrastinate when I go on tasbeha.org so I don't like to take up too much time reading or writing.
And Remenkimi, there is nothing like exceptions to a language, since there are no fixed rules in the first place (unlike the Greco-Bohairic made up dialect).
You have it backwards. Greco-Bohairic has fixed rules. You just don't want to acknowledge them. And "made-up dialects" are no less valid than dialects that take thousands of years to develop.
If you tend to use a word in a special context from one dialect most of the time, it can affect how it is pronounced in other dialects as well. Take for instance the British name: Worcester pronounced as /wɜstər/, I believe it is the same in America, isn't it?
You are comparing apples and oranges. Yes, certain words, like Worcester, are pronounced in non-rhotic dialects the same way. However, take a word that is used in a special dialect and transpose it to another and you'll get opposite results. For example, the standard dictionary entry of begotten is /bI'gAt-n/. In some dialects a word with double t is dropped like "begotten". In NY, it's pronounced /bI'gA-en/. Another good example is plaza. In most English dialects, including the Queens English, it is pronounced 'plAza. In NY, it is sometimes pronounced /'plAzər/ or /plazaR/. We can't just transpose pronunciation or exceptions of pronunciation from one dialect to another if the socio-linguistic environment is different.
Dear Copticuser20,
God bless you and pray for me to learn it the right way too...
Oujai qen `P[C
How can you say that when people are not aware of these rules, that you refer to, do not follow them and make up new rules as time passes by.
I posted the pronunciation of the letters in a reference compiled in 1969 which includes the Greco bohairic rules, yet when you compare them with what chanters like Ibrahim Ayad and Albair Mikhail, you would find that they are different.
Oujai
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3853861
The conflict between proponents of GB and OB has been going on for several decades. I’m familiar with these systems of pronunciation and have come to reject both of them. To some degree, it saddened me in this discussion to see attempts at applying them to Sahidic Coptic, which is classic Coptic that contains the majority of Coptic literature.
What needs to be done is the exact opposite. We need to apply Sahidic pronunciation of Greek letters to the Bohairic / Liturgical Coptic. Greek letters are pronounced very differently in Classic / Koine Greek versus Modern / Demotic Greek. While GB is based on the latter, Sahidic pronunciation is quite similar to Koine Greek, which was used in the first century AD.
In fact, pronunciation of the Coptic months would be very similar in Classic Greek regardless of whether we used the Sahidic or Bohairic spelling of their names. I hope the new revision of Coptic letters will reach the same conclusion.
Blessings,
Andrew