" St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24).
So would St Augustine not be considered a saint in our church?
Comments
St. Augustine is not commemorated in our Synaxarium (like St. Jerome). He is a western Father who was venerated long before the East-West schism of 1054 A.D., where much of his theology had been manipulated and added to by the Roman Church Fathers afterwards. While he is remembered more for his pious conversion and spiritual piety, some of his theology was very vague and fundamentally flawed. Despite this, he is an established Saint in the Church and has been venerated for hundreds of years.
Blessed Augustine had many thoughts that were not Orthodox and gave rise to different heresis like that of the Purgatory, the Filioque, the grace over works, ....
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12421.msg145530#msg145530 date=1317649510]
St. Augustine is not commemorated in our Synaxarium (like St. Jerome). He is a western Father who was venerated long before the East-West schism of 1054 A.D., where much of his theology had been manipulated and added to by the Roman Church Fathers afterwards. While he is remembered more for his pious conversion and spiritual piety, some of his theology was very vague and fundamentally flawed. Despite this, he is an established Saint in the Church and has been venerated for hundreds of years.
Blessed Augustine had many thoughts that were not Orthodox and gave rise to different heresis like that of the Purgatory, the Filioque, the grace over works, ....
True, but most of these 'heresies' were fully formed by later groups of people. Most of his theological errors were due to over elaboration. Much of his work on spirituality is actually quite refreshing and enlightening. But when he speaks of theological topics, mistakes are revealed.
Theology is tough. It is the study of the inner workings of the infinite Godhead, and that is extremely difficult for a human to fully comprehend.
I believe the late Abouna Matta El-Meskeen had the same problem. Spiritual Works = Great, Theological Works = Flawed.
Origen too...
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12421.msg145536#msg145536 date=1317655145]
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12421.msg145530#msg145530 date=1317649510]
St. Augustine is not commemorated in our Synaxarium (like St. Jerome). He is a western Father who was venerated long before the East-West schism of 1054 A.D., where much of his theology had been manipulated and added to by the Roman Church Fathers afterwards. While he is remembered more for his pious conversion and spiritual piety, some of his theology was very vague and fundamentally flawed. Despite this, he is an established Saint in the Church and has been venerated for hundreds of years.
Blessed Augustine had many thoughts that were not Orthodox and gave rise to different heresis like that of the Purgatory, the Filioque, the grace over works, ....
True, but most of these 'heresies' were fully formed by later groups of people. Most of his theological errors were due to over elaboration. Much of his work on spirituality is actually quite refreshing and enlightening. But when he speaks of theological topics, mistakes are revealed.
Theology is tough. It is the study of the inner workings of the infinite Godhead, and that is extremely difficult for a human to fully comprehend.
I believe the late Abouna Matta El-Meskeen had the same problem. Spiritual Works = Great, Theological Works = Flawed.
Origen too...
That is true. That is why Augustine is called "blessed" and not "saint" within the Orthodox Church.
I know that recently the Coptic Church is labeling him "saint" but it was not so originally.
I wish there was a more formal list of canonized saints though. I feel this question comes up a lot.
That is true. That is why Augustine is called "blessed" and not "saint" within the Orthodox Church.
I know that recently the Coptic Church is labeling him "saint" but it was not so originally.
I always thought it was backwards; that he was always labeled as a Saint until recently, when speculation by certain people had arisen. When I say 'always' I mean when we found out about him. He is not an Eastern Father, so we were not introduced to him until quite some time later.
Any evidence?
[quote author=aiernovi link=topic=12421.msg145549#msg145549 date=1317673757]
We have priests ordained in his name so I think that says something to how the church feels about him. Also in Pope Shenouda's sermons, he refers to him as "el kudees Augustinos"
I wish there was a more formal list of canonized saints though. I feel this question comes up a lot.
Also very true. Many Coptic Priests carry the name "Augustinos." His Holiness would not let that happen if he did not think he was a Saint.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12421.msg145545#msg145545 date=1317670770]
That is true. That is why Augustine is called "blessed" and not "saint" within the Orthodox Church.
I know that recently the Coptic Church is labeling him "saint" but it was not so originally.
I always thought it was backwards; that he was always labeled as a Saint until recently, when speculation by certain people had arisen. When I say 'always' I mean when we found out about him. He is not an Eastern Father, so we were not introduced to him until quite some time later.
Any evidence?
[quote author=aiernovi link=topic=12421.msg145549#msg145549 date=1317673757]
We have priests ordained in his name so I think that says something to how the church feels about him. Also in Pope Shenouda's sermons, he refers to him as "el kudees Augustinos"
I wish there was a more formal list of canonized saints though. I feel this question comes up a lot.
Also very true. Many Coptic Priests carry the name "Augustinos." His Holiness would not let that happen if he did not think he was a Saint.
Do not get me wrong. Augustine is a saintly man and a symbol of repentance. But because of his many errors, the Orthodox do not consider him one of the Church Fathers.
We have other Latin fathers like Cyprian of Carthage who is received in our Church, and is considered one of the Church Fathers, though he preceded St Augustine by 200 years.
It is not because of our lack of knowledge as we consider other Latin
Not a Church Father (because of errors) + Spiritual Piety = 'Blessed'
?
Saints can be wrong in certain aspects. We are only human.
So...
Not a Church Father (because of errors) + Spiritual Piety = 'Blessed'
?
Saints can be wrong in certain aspects. We are only human.
Church Fathers are the ones who bring the dogma to life through their interpretation of the bible. They are also the ones that the Church refer to to fight heresies. St Augustine, because of his many dogmatic errors, is not looked upon in such a way.
So he is a 'Saint,' but not a 'Church Father' according to his interpretation of certain theology.
This is very correct.
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12421.msg145558#msg145558 date=1317688950]
So he is a 'Saint,' but not a 'Church Father' according to his interpretation of certain theology.
This is very correct.
Cool. 8)
I'm glad we worked that out.
Please pray for me.
His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy said we consider St Augustine a saint because he also repented of his theological errors. I think this was necessary for him to do so because some of his errors were very severe.
Please pray for me.
Very interesting...
If I may ask, are there any links?
His Eminence said that later in the same writing he finished his meditations with - if I have said anything thing about you in error Lord please forgive me - or something to that effect so the Church forgives him.
Sorry that my lousy recollection is all you've got on this one... :)
Please pray for me,
LiD
Sorry that my lousy recollection is all you've got on this one... :)
Your recollection is quite good to explain that verbatim. Thanks 8)
[quote author=PeterA link=topic=12421.msg145587#msg145587 date=1317738649]
Aghapy,
I believe it was toward the end of his life that St Augustine wrote "retractions" fixing his theological errors.
'retractions' in a more proper translation in Latin is 'reworking' meaning he went over his errors or what people perceived as errors and offered different contemplations and meditations on seemingly hard and abstruse theological concepts.
He retreated from many of his previous theological positions, & recanted from his errors. Also, Protestant groups have maligned some of his work in order to justify some of their beliefs.
There's no doubt as to the importance of St Augustine to christianity, both as a saint by his example of repentance and philosopher/orator who fought against heresies like Manichaeism.
Does anyone have any specific links to some of his retractions? Maybe there's some on H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy's website.
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12421.msg145601#msg145601 date=1317748890]
Does anyone have any specific links to some of his retractions? Maybe there's some on H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy's website.
The Retractations By Saint Augustine (Bishop of Hippo)
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12421.msg145601#msg145601 date=1317748890]
Does anyone have any specific links to some of his retractions? Maybe there's some on H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy's website.
The Retractations By Saint Augustine (Bishop of Hippo)
Let the records show, you are "Patristic Links Man."
Thank you very much. 8)
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12421.msg145656#msg145656 date=1317836900]
Let the records show, you are "Patristic Links Man."
Thank you very much. 8)
;D
Happy to oblige.