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Who is to blame?
I always come back to this same question after each tragedy in Egypt: Who is to blame?
Is it the Religion of Islam?
Is it the government of Egypt?
Is it the naive Copts?
Is it the U.S. government?
Does everyone have a share in the blame? I mean without a clear target to blame how can we reach a solution?
Is it the Religion of Islam?
Is it the government of Egypt?
Is it the naive Copts?
Is it the U.S. government?
Does everyone have a share in the blame? I mean without a clear target to blame how can we reach a solution?
Comments
Question #2: Yes; refer to question #1 because they are the same
Question #3: Yes; because the Copts were stupid to join in with the "revolution" against Mubarak.
Question #4: Yes; because the American Government is being run by a Muslim and exceptionally stupid people.
Any more questions?
Question #1: Yes
Question #2: Yes; refer to question #1 because they are the same
Question #3: Yes; because the Copts were stupid to join in with the "revolution" against Mubarak.
Question #4: Yes; because the American Government is being run by a Muslim and exceptionally stupid people.
Any more questions?
Now what proportion of the blame does each party share. .
The end result is our people are dying.
How stupid were those liberal thinking Christians to believe that in Tahrir Square they should be surrounding the Muslims as they made their "prayers"?
I guess the Muslims are returning the gesture now.
But what's up with you calling Obama a Muslim?
1. Amount of AID from US to Egypt
2. Number of Copts killed by Muslims
(Romans 8:36/Psalm 44:22)
Welcome to the new Egypt.
One may interpolate.
Egypt has the 10th largest army in the world (yet the worst fighters/soldiers--they have lost every war).
They are given 2 Billion dollars of US aid. Most of it (1.6 Billion for military assistance).
Those troop carriers that you see running over Christians, are American made, and paid for with American Tax Dollars.
The Egyptian Officers are trained in the USA; specifically the Air Force.
Multiply $2 Billion since President Idiot Jimmy Carter started the package in 1978 and you can come to your own calculation.
Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim.
He cannot be a Christian.
He is named after the prophet's mule, which makes him half jackass and half horse's rear.
Anyone ascribed to Rev. Wright's "Church" cannot be a Christian.
U1,
One may interpolate.
Egypt has the 10th largest army in the world (yet the worst fighters/soldiers--they have lost every war).
They are given 2 Billion dollars of US aid. Most of it (1.6 Billion for military assistance).
Those troop carriers that you see running over Christians, are American made, and paid for with American Tax Dollars.
The Egyptian Officers are trained in the USA; specifically the Air Force.
Multiply $2 Billion since President Idiot Jimmy Carter started the package in 1978 and you can come to your own calculation.
Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim.
He cannot be a Christian.
He is named after the prophet's mule, which makes him half jackass and half horse's rear.
Anyone ascribed to Rev. Wright's "Church" cannot be a Christian.
It's one thing to say he's not Christian, it's another to say he's Muslim. There just is no strong case to be made for that. If there were, Republicans would have used it and he wouldn't be the President.
You gotta give me the source for Obama being named after Muhammad's mule!
(Though I agree with ILSM's observation that it was naive for Copts to get involved in the "revolution" to begin with...how is any revolution in a country of mostly Muslims not going to be awful for Christians? Think before you do, people!)
Islam is to blame. How could it be otherwise? The thugs did not shout "Islamiya! Islamiya!" for no reason. I am sick of this idea that this is somehow not sectarian, or if it is, it is two sides fighting for sectarian reasons. The Copts want their churches and homes and businesses not to be burnt down and destroyed with impunity and the media call it "sectarian clashes". That takes TWO sides. It is entirely Islam's fault.
(Though I agree with ILSM's observation that it was naive for Copts to get involved in the "revolution" to begin with...how is any revolution in a country of mostly Muslims not going to be awful for Christians? Think before you do, people!)
It could be otherwise, because the government (which was/is never run by people faithful to Islam) merely use this as a way to mess up the coming elections. Distract the people with these issues lest they actually come together to vote for someone moderate. . .
In the case of the Revolution: Did they really have a choice? It would've been bad both ways. Had Copts stayed at home the revolution would have continued and succeeded and we would've been labeled as unpatriotic and unEgyptian
Oujai
The question is, what about those who did (and do) these acts? What can we say about their motivation? I don't know, I'm not an Egyptian, so I can only go by what they say, and what they said was "Islamiya! Islamiya! Islamiya!"
I don't know a lot of Arabic, but I know what that means. You try to make it something else at your own peril.
If looked at that way, we can leave the word "revolution" out of this and say that Muslims are just doing what they have done for 1400 years and counting when left to their own devices with their Coptic/Armenian/Assyrian/Ethiopian/(fill in the blank) playthings...er, I mean, subjects.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12453.msg145906#msg145906 date=1318303712]
Guys, please keep the Egyptian revolution out of this. This is exactly what the corrupt regime that hasn't changed one iota is getting at.. to make the revolution out to have borne these fruits, and to apply the lame and ignorant policy that proves an ace every time "divide and conquer". They want us to say: where are your days mubarak? Seriously? Do you really believe Copts shouldn't have got rid of him? Really? Because during his reign Christians were so much highly respected and praised? Or do you believe that revolution was started by the muslim brotherhood? Don't start me on this already, and don't be deceived by media headlines...
Oujai
What do you mean, Unworthy1? I do not see how it could be otherwise. I do not treat Muslims like babies, who can only be manipulated by powers outside of themselves. That feeds into their arch-victimhood, which I think is stupid and insane and wrong, especially in contexts like this one. The government may or may not manipulate the religious feelings, and people may or may not fall for it, but nobody is a Muslim (Christian, Hindu, whatever) robot. Just because the man on the TV says you have to go out and hurt Copts (er, excuse me, "protect the army"! >:() doesn't mean you have to, and the vast majority of Muslims did not. Of course, a greater number who didn't also didn't speak out against it. The majority, as usual in any country or religion, are apathetic (cf. American "Christianity").
The question is, what about those who did (and do) these acts? What can we say about their motivation? I don't know, I'm not an Egyptian, so I can only go by what they say, and what they said was "Islamiya! Islamiya! Islamiya!"
I don't know a lot of Arabic, but I know what that means. You try to make it something else at your own peril.
First of all, I am not exonerating Muslims and saying this is on the government alone. I am just saying that it is a bit more complex than you think. The government has been creating a divide for many years - Copts and Muslims were not always opposed to each other.
The government not only encourages Muslims via the media to feel hate towards Copts but is known to have its own agitators go into these protests and begin the violence which leads to more Muslims joining in.
Again, I am not exonerating Muslims!
But even in the government weren't in the religion business, we would still be left with the reality of "Islamiya"-chanting thugs. Remember the Salafi protests from before the revolution (last year sometime, I think)? The chant there was "The Copts are our guests!"
So, yes, you're right, it's not as simple as I've put it. We have the government, the Salafi thugs, and Islam itself...all poisoning the society and strangling the aspirations of those (Copt and non-Copt) who had hoped that the revolution would bring equality. Lord have mercy.
Very interesting and illuminating what you say, and I guess it makes my life so easy trying to explain how things work in the current environment.
First of all, there is no political vacuum as such. This political vacuum has been forged into existence by the current (which is only a continuation of the ex-) corrupt regime, which forced police forces and security forces to stay at home, earning their salaries plus bonuses too (if you are prepared to believe it). The supreme council of armed forces (scaf - for me no point in using capital letters), is creating all of the pieces of the puzzle of the current picture, with the sole rationale of protecting mubarak and his corrupt allies' businesses and ranks, as Unworthy1 alluded to. Facts first:
- A couple of days after the stepping down of mubarak 3000 religious activists came back to Egypt from their exiles.
- A month after his stepping down, no mention of his crazy millions (if not billions), and only mention of his worsening state of health, and his ex-government figures in prison for a FAIR trial (hehe, very fair).
- During this time, salafists' attacks on a church in Giza (3 weeks after the scaf themselves abruptly bulldozed down a monastery's wall, killing a monk in the process, and injuring a couple others (with one dying in hospital afterwards)).
- Then the counter-revolution motions supporting mubarak.
- Then forcefully disbanding gatherings in Tahrir square, and ALLOWING FOR (getting serious now) salafis gatherings there calling "islamiya islamiya". By the way, muslim brotherhood historically up until the third week of the revolution said that they had no intention of joining the protests (as it was called at that time) - talk about fishing in dirty waters.
- Then the single solitary incidents of salafis applying sharia laws, dismembering a couple of Copts without stopping.
- Then the so-called show of mubarak and sons being trialled in court (and the subsequent decree of stopping such).
Of course during all of these, liberal parties have been accused of burning down the Israeli embassy, and so on...
So all in all, it is very likely that scaf is making it out to be another Yugoslavia. What is for certain is that there is no revolution without aftermaths, and Copts as cheap blood, are being used to incite divisions and more hatred for people towards each other for the scaf to remain in the ruling. They have not scrapped the emergency laws that once mubarak was ousted, was promised. They are still trying civilians in military courts. They are still abducting bloggers because of their criticism for the sad state Egypt came down to. They are still in control of the media BIG TIME, and using hypocrites to carry on denouncing the mubarak's regime (just for the show) while they do the very things that were for long hidden from public view, until the arrival of social networking, and amateur video up-ranking.
Bottom line is muslims in Egypt are stuck to closed-minded principles, and funny jokes (that appear so to us), but they are strict, and they have good points that we were taught in Sunday school to learn from our brothers from (e.g. sticking to our dogma, and being very stringent in our practices). I do not say that all what they do is right, nor do I like the state of Copts having been islamicised in their thinking, but our church saints taught us how to learn from other people's advantages, even though we may differ in beliefs and creed. So all in all, what I want to say is that maybe ignorant muslims (and they may be a majority) would argue what is happening to Christians is right in their views, but this has never been the Egyptian mentality before the rise of wahhabism in the 70's and 80's, and the secret deals between Saudi Arabia, and USA and Europe on one hand, and Arab countries on the other... may God have mercy on us and on all His creation in these difficult times...
Oujai qen `P[C
So I maintain Islam is entirely at fault. If only the people were so committed to throwing off their religious oppression as well. Tantawi is not the only Mohammed I'd like to see out of the Egyptian government...
Oujai qen `P[C
I did see my grandmother, who was in her 60's being spit upon and on the cross she wore around her neck.
Don't try to fool yourself that there was ever an era of tolerance or understanding or that nebulous word "brotherhood".
A Muslim can never be your friend. You are just his pet.
Any "niceties" we receive from any Muslim is purely related to their perspective of the Copts as "PETS". They can never look a Christian in the eye as a brother or as a human being. We are just their PETS. They show the cute affection every once in a while, but it is no different than they would for a cat or a dog. They cannot be trusted. This mentality has always been present even in the era prior to the 70's and 80's.
I did see my grandmother, who was in her 60's being spit upon and on the cross she wore around her neck.
Don't try to fool yourself that there was ever an era of tolerance or understanding or that nebulous word "brotherhood".
A Muslim can never be your friend. You are just his pet.
I have never really lived in Egypt, but I must admit, I have heard the same thing also - from people I know very well.
But can you really generalize though ILSM? I mean, I know so many muslim people who are generally good at heart and really do treat Copts with some respect.
First of all, I am not denying at all that their religions compels them to treat Christians as infidels, and second-ranked, and our possessions and women are their pillage. But seriously, how many people in percentage in Egypt believe this? A majority? I won't argue... but they never treat you this way... in fact, there are thousands if not millions who laugh at their own quran, and dogmas, not least because of how other religions are viewed, in addition to women, and mostly because of the many contradictions that their god and muhammed have created (hehe... funny). BUT, in capital letters, Christians are not treated like that, and never used to be treated like that after the eviction of the British, except since the rise of anwar elsadat. yes, during Gamal Abdelnasser's time, there were incidents and not solely sporadic, but they were contained (at least as far as I am aware), added to that the power of Pope Cyril VI, and his indirect influence on Abdelnasser. However, elsadat started his thorny move of letting loose the weapon of muslim brotherhood, coupled with the rise of wahhabism, and to find a target away from moderate muslims and of course the Egyptian authorities he slandered Christians... he once claimed that the biggest threat to national security are Christians. When he sent Pope Shenouda to exile, he stood up in the Egyptian assembly quoting some words from their quran alluding to "may god help us defeat our enemy", and so on...
However, with spreading of hatred and illiteracy, and the gluttony of the governors and presidents and all people in power, the tension rose, and was abused beyond belief. So the seeds were cultivated and the fruits are being reaped now. However again, the people who are fighting for Egypt's revolution (and they are 99% if not 100%) have no connection to these kind of ideologies, and also they are very focussed on Christians claiming their rights in the new Egypt.
So, yes, their religion tells them this, but many thousands if not millions do not believe it, and they themselves are being called infidels by the radical islamists that act as one of the weapons (can't even say a powerful tool, because of how Christians are viewed), but they are fighting for their own, as well as Christians' freedom, and that is why we pray for the revolution to flourish even more. Please don't trust the "lying" media - I am sure you may have already got this foolproof about the Egyptian media in specific, when they allude to the fact that all of this is happening now because of the revolution...
Oujai qen `P[C
First of all, I am not denying at all that their religions compels them to treat Christians as infidels, and second-ranked, and our possessions and women are their pillage. But seriously, how many people in percentage in Egypt believe this? A majority?
How many percent does it have to be to be a problem? How many percent makes it wrong? I think this is the wrong of looking at it. 19 people killed 2,996 people on September 11, 2001 because of this religion and what they believed it tells them to do. Only 29 were ever charged with killing 192 people in Madrid. In London on 7/7/2005, four people killed 52 people in train bombings. All of this was Muslims lashing out at perceived enemies for various reasons (generally related to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that are extremely unpopular in the West, too). You could say "well, then it's not really about Islam, it's about the wars", which is true on one level, but mostly irrelevant since it is Islam that tells that sanctions such vile methods of expressing grievances. The Muslims in Egypt don't want a church to be repaired? Nevermind that the Copts have permission, just tear it down, and make sure to burn down some Christian business and homes while you're at it to make it clear that YOU run the country and can do whatever you want to those filthy Christians at any time.
That's Islam. That's not some sort of perversion held by a tiny percent that we don't have to worry about. That is how they behave when left to their own devices. The majority that don't physically go out and attack Copts or burn down churches don't really matter, since they often support the ultimate goals of the radicals (e.g., Islamic Egypt; what do they care if some church gets burned down? Sure, it's a shame, but it's not going to effect their religion or lifestyle.) It is reminiscent of the conversations that I've had with Muslims from everywhere about Palestine. I'll ask them if they support the suicide bombings and other violence done to Israel and 99.9% say "no, of course not; killing civilians is wrong", but then most will follow it up with "BUT they are just fighting back against a well-funded, well-trained army that denies them their rights." It is easy to extend this way of thinking to any relation of Islam vs. the world: It is wrong to burn down churches, BUT it is a Muslim-majority country and the Copts must be sensitive to the feelings of the Muslims if they want to avoid these problems. It is wrong to oppress Christians, BUT look at what America (which is "Christian") is doing in the Muslim countries.
Blah, blah, blah, blah. Until this majority that you point to stops being apathetic and making excuses and justifications for all the evil of their religion, wringing their hands at "how could Muslims do this?", then it won't matter how few people actually actively oppress Christians or other non-Muslims. Even if it is only 0.0001%, can there be too few violent idiots out there?
You don't remember the Salafis chanting "The Copts are our guests"? Or is it that you don't connect what they say with what they do? Of course they treat you this way! You think mobs destroyed the Abu Fana monastery over a "land dispute", for instance? It is interesting that they would kidnap and torture monks and try to force them to pronounce the shahada and renounce Christianity over a "land dispute". And also the massacres at El-Kosheh. I guess this isn't a good example of Muslims treating Christians "this way", either. Or the bombing at El-Qediseen church. Or the shootings the year before. Or... They can laugh at their own religion and its stupid book, fine. But I cannot laugh at any of the things I just listed, or any of the many other examples of Christians being oppressed, tortured, and martyred not just in Egypt but across all of the world that the Muslims have controlled, both east and west (let's not forget also the martyrs of Cordoba and the others in the mythical peaceful "Al-Andalus", or the Devshirme in the Balkans...Muslims are not just oppressors in Egypt). Your own church history says otherwise. A great many martyrs for the faith have blessed Egypt with their blood split at the hands of the Muslims, not starting with Anwar Sadat, but centuries before him. Excuses, excuses, excuses. He knew what he was doing. Christians are an easy scapegoat (and/or the dirty, dirty Jews). They always have been for Muslim failures and bad governance. Don't give Abdelnasser or any of the rest of the filthy, corrupt leaders any more rope. They will hang all the Christians with it, because that's what Islam does. Good Muslim, have a cookie. >:( Yeah, okay. As you see it. The situation on the ground is therefore either such that the revolution is impotent against the military leadership (not a point I would dispute, by the way; everybody clearly wants Tantawi gone, from all that I've seen), or a tiny minority of extremists being allowed to hijack everything (also not a point I'd disagree with, since you seem to be focused on numbers rather than ideologies). It doesn't really matter, since the truth of the matter is that nobody stands with the Christians. The Muslims who are risking themselves to help Christians, while being the good examples and wonderful people that I would sincerely like to believe represent all Muslims (despite 1400 years of evidence to the contrary) are essentially collateral damage in the state and its thugs' crackdown on the Christians. They don't have time to check ID cards before they start hurling rocks or running people over, so...
Again, those who are focused on helping Christians get their rights don't really matter. They will suffer along with the rest of us for their honorable commitment to a free Egypt, and be crushed just the same. I wish it were otherwise, but it isn't. In the absence of true equality before the law (notice how Islam is still the state religion and source of legislation even in the new draft constitution), all the friendly Muslims in the world can't help us. And I'm afraid Islam has never been about true equality in any way between the Muslim and the non-Muslim. I don't trust the media. I trust God. In many verses like John 16:2 and Matthew 24:9, we see very clearly what is happening today and why, not just in Egypt but to Christians everywhere that they attempt to live with Muslims. No revolution will save us, no matter where it flourishes or how admirable the aims of 99% of it is. As we have seen time and time again (and not just in the 'Islamic' world), in the case of any political revolution, eventually it becomes a matter of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
The word you used "some respect".
We are pets (Fido and MishMish)
I cannot argue with most of what you said. In fact, I think you misunderstood where I was coming from, but echoed what I wanted to say in better expression. I agree with most of what you said except:
when I said: I won't argue... but they never treat us this way... I was by no means pointing to salafis (please read my previous two posts).
When I was talking about Egypt after the eviction of the British, I wasn't again alluding to the thousands of years before, or contradicting my church history. I was merely talking about Egypt freed from occupation of the Turks, the Arabs, the French, and the English....
However, I don't find any point of argument except that you still believe that the revolution was primarily aimed at muslims' rights and reclamation of their wealth disregarding the Christians, and I can say confidently that is not the case. Only puppeteers want to make it out to be this way...
Oujai qen `P[C
As a point of comparison, you find in Lebanon today (and really since the end of the war) a lot of people who argue for the abolition of the confessional system, since the demographics are such that you have a minority (the Christians) ruling over a majority (the Muslims), by virtue of the fact that the constitution guarantees the presidency to a Maronite Christian. This is inherently un-democractic, no? So they make the argument that it is bad. But the Christians (or at least some of them) make the argument that the alternative is worse, because without that protection they will be politically disenfranchised and swept out of the way and Lebanon will essentially become Hezbollahistan to an even greater degree than it already is. The Muslims, predictably, look at this prospect and say "Yeah, and what is the problem with that?" :o
In a similar way, without wondering whether getting rid of Mubarak was good (I agree that he was a dictator), I do wonder if the Copts don't see or won't see shortly that life in the new Egypt is not better. This would not be because the revolution was an explicitly Islamic one, or that it did not have good goals. Rather, it is the simple matter that as the majority are Muslim to whatever degree they are, they see Islam as an intrinsic good for society (I highly doubt the thousands or millions you mentioned who laugh at their own religion form a cohesive and powerful force to challenge this idea openly, politically). So, in that way, it is natural that any revolution in a Muslim-majority country will introduce more (explicit) Islam into the society, even if that is not the primary goal. The people believe in their religion, and that their religion is good, and if it isn't your religion...well...we see what happens to you. Lord have mercy.
Oujai
What's that verse from the psalms? "Do not trust in princes", etc.? (Yeah, I'm not really awake yet, sorry.)
They appointed a Christian Governor for a "couple of hours" and that was vociferously and violently opposed by those now "moderate" Muslim Brotherhood, till he was removed in favor of one of those "I really love my fellow Christian-type Muslim".
We should all get used to our pet names: Fido, Fifi, MishMish, Tiger, Rover, etc.