I checked out the link you provided. . .you really believe those posters represent how a typical Orthodox Christian responds? Half of the posters were kids.
No, I don't think so. Though some appear to be very vocal on facebook. Some of my closest friends are Coptic Orthodox, and I can tell you they don't respond like that. But those comments came in hundreds. This is why we need to educate people, to reduce hate speech and bullying whether on line or in person.
Anyway this is completely off topic, if anyone has anymore questions Pm me.
Cy
The issue of eternal damnation is not a matter of bullying. The Bible is very clear when it comes to homosexuality. Homosexuals are eternally doomed if they do not stop calling themselves homosexuals and refrain from homosexual acts.
I checked out the link you provided. . .you really believe those posters represent how a typical Orthodox Christian responds? Half of the posters were kids.
No, I don't think so. Though some appear to be very vocal on facebook. Some of my closest friends are Coptic Orthodox, and I can tell you they don't respond like that. But those comments came in hundreds. This is why we need to educate people, to reduce hate speech and bullying whether on line or in person.
Anyway this is completely off topic, if anyone has anymore questions Pm me.
Cy
The issue of eternal damnation is not a matter of bullying. The Bible is very clear when it comes to homosexuality. Homosexuals are eternally doomed if they do not stop calling themselves homosexuals and refrain from homosexual acts.
And either way, I don't think this matter is controversial at all among Copts. The majority of the people in the Facebook groups are not Coptic, or even Egyptian, but gay activists that happened to stumble upon the group.
Mr Albert Osseily, I meant no disrespect to you personally. My rhetoric was more for the readers here who are confused because of these podcasts than it was for yourself.
I do not think you are a devil, habibi; Perhaps I was carried away with my zeal and love for the church. I don't think you should take things very personally. But in either case I'll be more carefull, because that would undermine the spirit of love and discernment i try to live by daily. More importantly that would undermine my relationship with Christ.
Here's what i think is really happening. I PMd a supporter of this podcast and he told me a few things which I will not say openly here because that would undermine his confidence in me. But I will say that I think these podcasts are a way for him to deal with the real agenda he tried to bring forth in the past but couldn't; homosexuality.
He's trying to do that from a different angle, clearly. The first time it was discussed we had 13 pages of disappointment for those supporting homosexuality. Whether you know of this or not, I will not say. You may be innocent and just wanting to discuss the issues at the hand in the podcast, and that's fair. I have a feeling these podcasts will be used in the foreseeable future as a launchpad for homosexuality to be brought up again, and this time, they will have their proof using these podcasts.
If this is an attempt to warp and contort the beliefs of people here then i ask everyone to be very cautious, if not, then im sorely wrong about all this and may you continue without hindrance. Either way, what was told to me by this supporter in the private messages made me think twice about his intentions, which in turn, made me think about yours as well..
I certainly am not accusing you of anything but I hope you're not being used and manipulated in order to bring some sort of doctrinal or dogmatic agenda in the future..
Nothing said in these podcasts will change the church's view that unrepentant homosexuality is a sin. Maybe I seem like a fool speaking about the topic not even raised, but I have a feeling this will come up, so I'm just cautioning everyone.
Stay vigilant, discerning and more importantly, loving.
No I dont think Im being used. Just got to remember brother, there is the zeal of Christ and the zeal of the pharisees. It was really off putting to see the harsh response once the podcast was linked in this thread. Its hard to see Copts, my people, react so quickly and with such anger. I listed to the podcast again and again. I couldnt understand why the responses came as they did. Finally, the podcast has nothing to do with homosexuality, so I dont know why it keeps coming up.
For myself Peter, Im very conservative, and the people at Concerned Copts know this. So, no sex before marriage, no pornography, no prostitution, and no, I do not think homosexual behaviour is the ideal that God asks us to bring into our life. I always caveat this by saying, well, Im not for sex before marriage. So either Im a religious nut who you should ignore or Im whatever you want to take that for. I noticed that it took a while for someone to ask ME what I actually believe. That should have been the first thing someone should have done to have avoided this rhetoric.
Nevertheless, what is important is the message, not the the messenger. 1 + 1 is two even if im a gay, Muslim, who watches pornography, prays to Zeus, and eats pizza with a fork and knife. True?
the fact that this podcast/blog is called CONCERNED COPTS is actually pretty sad. Your CONCERN is not what you should be so CONCERNED about. When I first read 'concerned copts' the first thing that came to my mind was that you guys were rallying for support for our brothers and sisters in Egypt.
No offense to the fobs, but I am not a fob. I was born in Canada and yet I still admit that I am of Egyptian ancestry and Coptic Orthodox roots....which still ultimately links me to Christian suffering in Egypt. You should be concerned about Christians in Egypt, about those who have little or nothing to eat etc, and most of all, about your salvation. If you were living in Egypt or another country where life is very hard right now, you would not be thinking about how to justify your improper sexual desires, but about your safety, well being, and your salvation. The sad that you turn the tables around on the Copts shows just how much you will twist the truth to get what you want.
Again, I am not bashing homosexuals....homosexual acts are as sinful as premarital sex, but I'm not gonna start a podcast called Concerned Copts...todays youth are just 'passionate' and have less self-control than they did in the past....plus porn is everywhere, so give us the rights to act the way we want!" While, as youth we may struggle with remaining pure, the key word here is STRUGGLE meaning AGAINST it, not going with the flow habibi.
If you are struggling with homosexuality and don't want to be labeled or pointed at or cause a big scene, then don't act/dress/do anything conspicuous. Be humble and keep your struggles between yourself, your father of confession, a few close friends maybe and definitely God. E finito la musica!
Hello Albert, I was wondering if you could summerise the points made in the pod-cast? I think there needs to be some clarity for the direction or stand that has been made by concerned copts or yourself.
Hello, and thanks for your question. The main points would be this:
- We, as Christians, should not tie ourselves to the State, the government, trying to create some Christian Utopia in whatever land we live.
- We are hypocrites when we ask for one thing here in the West, and another in Egypt/Sudan. E.g. We say to gays here "This is our country, this is how marriage is going to work, we dont care how it makes you feel". We as Copts feel happy to say this. Then in Egypt the Muslims say "This is our country, this is how marriage is going to work, we dont care how it makes you feel". We get upset when the Muslims say this. This is the definition of hypocrisy.
- We, as Copts, should spread the word of Christ through our words, our Churches and our actions. Banning "sinful" things will not make things better, in fact it will make it worse. We need to learn the lessen from the Europeans. They tried what everyone on this thread is saying. Now their Jesus is bleeding to death. Their Church dwindles in numbers. We must learn from history. We must go back the Christianity when we were being persecuted. We loved Christ for Christ. Regardless of what the Emperor said or did. We are blessed now not to experience persecution again in the West. But what we are doing, acting like this, wanting to ban every vice, every sin, it is a poison chalice. It will kill us.
They are the important points. Everything else are just side issues.
I'm a kiwi by the way. I think your right when it comes to state and religion and that was the road the catholics took. I also think that is what weakened the Catholic church and then weakened again by having protestants coming from them. So ended up been liberal in what started as conservative. In Eygpt the rulers were muslims, so in away, took the worldly (political) affairs away from the majority christian Copts.
The second points you made about hypocrisy I think are valid, but all of us show loyalty to what we believe in, so for the copts there are two rules: one is that marriage has been ordained by god to be between a man and a women, and the other is that homosexuality is a sin. I can see where your coming from though because you are saying we are both been discrimated against; Copts and homosexuals. Both feel as if they have rights concerning how they are in society. But the copts have spiritual responsibilities and that is not just the concerns of the rights of what this world offers. Even though copts and homosexuals are discrimated against, and both tragically suffer, the goals are different. So we can't go on the same path. It may seem hypocritical that the copts should have sympathy in their plight but don't think homosexuals should have any. It is a spiritual matter for the copts and not just for rights. Hypocrates believe they have higher standards when they don't. The copts are going for a spiritual standard, which is a higher standard than basic human rights, so when it comes to the muslims in Eygpt, the law there is abused just like the pharisees did with the laws God gave Moses. The ones in power were unfair.
I think your right in your third comments about how Christ's message should be spread. But also I think the gospel by word and our actions by rightousness. For the church it is the bride of christ, so is the weaker part of the marriage and like what is ordained in the marriage: The bride obeys the husband and the husband repects the bride. When we obey we show loyality. In the end God says the world will end one day and I do wonder what reckoning, if any, there will be with homosexuals? We are to look for the remission of sin but how we go about that I think you are right because Jesus asks us to make a chose in which way we go. However, homosexuals cannot expect to go to holy places and not repent for the sin.
I know in Sydney they have large gay parades so my thoughts are that the world has became more liberal. For me librals are creative and conservatives like to stay with what they have. But it comes down to what is happiness? I believe it is contentment. People who are content like things the way they are. But God wants us to go back to him and the copts believe they have the right way of doing that. In the middle east Christians have been driven out of their homelands, but homosexuals will always get to stay in theirs even when they are suffering.
I understand what your saying. Of course, we see what we have as the truth. We sincerely believe it. But we cant take the view that since OUR views are sincere and truthful, well then, we get to force them on everyone else......BUT....those Muslims and gays, they have non-reasonable, non-truthful reasons. In the end, there is only one principle at play here, the very wise idea that you do to others as you want done to yourself. There can be no "but" after this. It cant be...."Yeah Albert, I get what your saying, we say one thing to the Muslims and gays, and want another for ourselves......BUT". Mate, if we are being honest and consistent, and I think that's something God wants us to do (amongst other things), then we have to give to the Muslims, gays, atheists and any other group whatever we would want for ourselves.
So lets go back to the actual podcast. We Christians support the government defining marriage in our favor. Fine. Then we cant get upset when independent Senator Nick Xenophon suggests legislation telling Christians how THEIR (and mine) sacraments can be practiced. We just cant have it both ways. Either government gets the final say or they dont. It cant be "yeah, we love government, only when they do what we the Christians want". We must see the writing on the wall. Our numbers are dwindling. We WILL become a statistical minority in our lifetimes. But even if we were not, I would still have the same view.
The only issue I had with the podcast (and the follow-up in this forum's thread) is where is this discussion going?
With the exception of the second podcast on Concerned Copts, I found that there is no particular thesis to any of the podcast. Yes, some issues of concern were raised, especially with regards to hypocrisy in the Coptic church and its people, but there were no suggestions of repairing those issues or solutions from WITHIN the Christian tradition offered. The hope that was placed was ultimately in secular thought, rather than putting our hope on the Truth, who is a person, Jesus Christ the Son of God.
If the concerns raised by the podcasts try to find solutions in secular thought, they will end up going in circles, contradicting themselves with multiple methods, and in the end hurting themselves and others. However, if the podcasts are raising concerns and want those concerns to be healed by Christ, then I think we have a very reasonable and necessary service in this podcast!
Yes, it is necessary to look at our sins - even at the level of our culture and society, the hierarchy of the church, etc. - raise those concerns that are affecting our relationships with God, our own community, and other communities in the society we live in; and eventually try to find healing and strength in Christ, who in turn would send his Spirit to motivate us to make the world a better place for everyone to live in.
That's generally my thoughts on the podcasts.
With regards to the third podcast (discussed in this thread), I don't agree with the concept of anarchism. There are many reasons for that, but to keep this message short, suffice it to say that anarchism is ultimately atheism, because we believe in the God of the law of love.
At the same time, I don't agree with all the sides in the conversation. The Copts who use the political system to cry out for justice against other governments and religions, while at the same time are against the system for attempting to provide justice for homosexuals or bring to justice the clergy who abused children, is certainly hypocrisy. So in this sense, I agree with Albert's concern. On the other hand, reliance on the political system to bring about justice is hopeless, because the system itself can be abused by any belief which would contradict another belief. The "right" of "freedom of religion" does not make any sense in a multi-cultural and multi-religious pluralistic society, because it will ultimately destroy that society.
In other words, I think that in terms of politics, the idea of freedom of religion needs to be re-thought for our age and day. It's an idea that served its purpose in the past, when all the battles of religion in those Western countries were among different Christian denominations. Today's Western world is much more complex, with many religious and non-religious beliefs practiced, and even many new cults rising up and playing huge roles in political and social affairs. It can't work, if one religion has the right to keep crosses in a Christian school's classrooms, and another religion has the right to keep its followers in a room without being forced to see the cross in those classrooms; or a religion that has the right to keep its sacraments holy and without political interference, while another religious cult wants to have the right to offer child sacrifices.
The law can't treat all religions equally. What is fair treatment for one religion is usually injustice for another religion or belief.
The focus of such laws should not simple be the freedom of religion, but should be the preserving of life and happiness of those individuals practicing those religions. If a religion threatens the life of someone who practices that religion, or harms the life and happiness of those who don't practice it, then that's when the law should interfere with that religion, without coming up with terms like "extreme Muslims" and "extreme Christians" to separate the extreme from the moderate.
Well, with the discussion, I was actually surprised myself when the first few pages of the thread discussed issues un-related to the podcast, and its a shame that it did so.
You said "If the concerns raised by the podcasts try to find solutions in secular thought, they will end up going in circles, contradicting themselves with multiple methods, and in the end hurting themselves and others". It's interesting that you made this point. As you can see, the post I put up just before your one was an attempt to summarise the podcast. Underlying the entire talk was the notion of hypocrisy and the commandment of Christ that we do to others what we want done to ourselves. I dont see how this is a secular solution. I dont think you can get any more Christian in a solution - Apply Christ's words!!!
In regards to Anarchism, you are right, its a small side point and should not really be discussed here. I have never heard anyone claim a link between it and atheism and would be interested in discussing. My email is linked to my profile if you ever have time.
I like the way you are going in the paragraphs after this. If I am interpreting you correctly, we need to create a proper baseline and say to religions "ok, before this line you are free to do as you please, if you cross it, we the society will interfere". If I have misunderstood you, let me know.
Wow, i didn't read this whole thread, but so far, this is looking like it's another one of those, "let's get along with gay people" kind of threads. Here is our Coptic stance on gays:
We love them as a person because Jesus taught us to love everybody, even our enemies. The only difference is that we are disappointed by their actions. It's like when in the Bible, (i forget exactly where, but i am sure you will find it familiar), it says that if someone has done something against you, then talk to him privately about the incident, and if he refuses to fix the situation either by saying sorry or doing what is necessary in the situation, then the Bible says, take another person with you who will be a witness and try again. If that doesn't work, then take him to the church to deal with, and if that doesn't work, then he shall be like a heathen or a tax collector to you. This is exactly how we view the gays. They have went against the canons of Christianity therefore going against our Church therefore we will respect them as people, but we won't like what they are doing, and we will try to avoid them because if we aren't strong enough they will influence us.
We, as Coptic Christians, shouldn't be trying to spread word, that gays are welcome because we love everyone even if your sexual orientation is against our beliefs. This is not true, we don't accept there actions, but we respect them as people and hope that they will be able to see the Truth sometime in their life, and to realize the dark they have been wandering in.
This is the Coptic Church's opinion on gays since the beginning, and it's not going to change just because homosexuality is the "new" thing now.
The podcast which this thread relates to has nothing to do with homosexuality and Im trying to keep it off that topic. If you have a chance, listen to the podcast and let me know what you think.
Hi aosseily, Sorry if I used homosexuals in my post but it was to gain an understand of the topic which I think is about inconsistacy. I think we do have to use the word but because what we are doing requires a contradiction. To try to change from sinning we have to contradict it, so we can't be in contance with the sin. The Holy Spirit will do that and has far more grace than I would ever have.
If this is what we would want for ourselves because we know it's good? Why wouldn't we want it for someone else? Aren't we then treating others the way we want to be treated? I don't understand what you meant by force from the coptic church though. There would be concern if things are done by force.
I mean by force when we participate in the democratic process to criminalise certain behaviour because it is "sinful". This is force because as we all know, the cops will jump all over you, the courts will judge you and prison will break you. We have to realise that we create no incentive to do actual good when the society is basically putting guns to peoples heads saying "don't commit sin". Of course, Im not saying a society should be law-less, but that we as Christians should not place the bar so high, lest it swing and smack us on the ass.
Criminal actions are against the law and have there associations with sin. They are normally enforced because of their affects on society. Laws have an association with loyalty as well because we obey them. I've said here many times obediance is loyalty. So I guess what people feel about criminal action is that it is disloyal. I certainly don't agree with laws that will question your loyalty as a member of society in many muslim countries.
Christ's love is free, but as an open invitation to go back to God. He paid for our sins and after that, if we sin, what dept do we owe?
Comments
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12498.msg146714#msg146714 date=1319673555]
I checked out the link you provided. . .you really believe those posters represent how a typical Orthodox Christian responds? Half of the posters were kids.
No, I don't think so. Though some appear to be very vocal on facebook. Some of my closest friends are Coptic Orthodox, and I can tell you they don't respond like that. But those comments came in hundreds. This is why we need to educate people, to reduce hate speech and bullying whether on line or in person.
Anyway this is completely off topic, if anyone has anymore questions Pm me.
Cy
The issue of eternal damnation is not a matter of bullying. The Bible is very clear when it comes to homosexuality. Homosexuals are eternally doomed if they do not stop calling themselves homosexuals and refrain from homosexual acts.
[quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12498.msg146717#msg146717 date=1319674563]
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12498.msg146714#msg146714 date=1319673555]
I checked out the link you provided. . .you really believe those posters represent how a typical Orthodox Christian responds? Half of the posters were kids.
No, I don't think so. Though some appear to be very vocal on facebook. Some of my closest friends are Coptic Orthodox, and I can tell you they don't respond like that. But those comments came in hundreds. This is why we need to educate people, to reduce hate speech and bullying whether on line or in person.
Anyway this is completely off topic, if anyone has anymore questions Pm me.
Cy
The issue of eternal damnation is not a matter of bullying. The Bible is very clear when it comes to homosexuality. Homosexuals are eternally doomed if they do not stop calling themselves homosexuals and refrain from homosexual acts.
And either way, I don't think this matter is controversial at all among Copts. The majority of the people in the Facebook groups are not Coptic, or even Egyptian, but gay activists that happened to stumble upon the group.
Aghapy,
Mr Albert Osseily, I meant no disrespect to you personally. My rhetoric was more for the readers here who are confused because of these podcasts than it was for yourself.
I do not think you are a devil, habibi; Perhaps I was carried away with my zeal and love for the church. I don't think you should take things very personally. But in either case I'll be more carefull, because that would undermine the spirit of love and discernment i try to live by daily. More importantly that would undermine my relationship with Christ.
Here's what i think is really happening. I PMd a supporter of this podcast and he told me a few things which I will not say openly here because that would undermine his confidence in me. But I will say that I think these podcasts are a way for him to deal with the real agenda he tried to bring forth in the past but couldn't; homosexuality.
He's trying to do that from a different angle, clearly. The first time it was discussed we had 13 pages of disappointment for those supporting homosexuality. Whether you know of this or not, I will not say. You may be innocent and just wanting to discuss the issues at the hand in the podcast, and that's fair. I have a feeling these podcasts will be used in the foreseeable future as a launchpad for homosexuality to be brought up again, and this time, they will have their proof using these podcasts.
If this is an attempt to warp and contort the beliefs of people here then i ask everyone to be very cautious, if not, then im sorely wrong about all this and may you continue without hindrance. Either way, what was told to me by this supporter in the private messages made me think twice about his intentions, which in turn, made me think about yours as well..
I certainly am not accusing you of anything but I hope you're not being used and manipulated in order to bring some sort of doctrinal or dogmatic agenda in the future..
Nothing said in these podcasts will change the church's view that unrepentant homosexuality is a sin. Maybe I seem like a fool speaking about the topic not even raised, but I have a feeling this will come up, so I'm just cautioning everyone.
Stay vigilant, discerning and more importantly, loving.
@PeterA
No I dont think Im being used. Just got to remember brother, there is the zeal of Christ and the zeal of the pharisees. It was really off putting to see the harsh response once the podcast was linked in this thread. Its hard to see Copts, my people, react so quickly and with such anger. I listed to the podcast again and again. I couldnt understand why the responses came as they did. Finally, the podcast has nothing to do with homosexuality, so I dont know why it keeps coming up.
For myself Peter, Im very conservative, and the people at Concerned Copts know this. So, no sex before marriage, no pornography, no prostitution, and no, I do not think homosexual behaviour is the ideal that God asks us to bring into our life. I always caveat this by saying, well, Im not for sex before marriage. So either Im a religious nut who you should ignore or Im whatever you want to take that for. I noticed that it took a while for someone to ask ME what I actually believe. That should have been the first thing someone should have done to have avoided this rhetoric.
Nevertheless, what is important is the message, not the the messenger. 1 + 1 is two even if im a gay, Muslim, who watches pornography, prays to Zeus, and eats pizza with a fork and knife. True?
No offense to the fobs, but I am not a fob. I was born in Canada and yet I still admit that I am of Egyptian ancestry and Coptic Orthodox roots....which still ultimately links me to Christian suffering in Egypt. You should be concerned about Christians in Egypt, about those who have little or nothing to eat etc, and most of all, about your salvation. If you were living in Egypt or another country where life is very hard right now, you would not be thinking about how to justify your improper sexual desires, but about your safety, well being, and your salvation. The sad that you turn the tables around on the Copts shows just how much you will twist the truth to get what you want.
Again, I am not bashing homosexuals....homosexual acts are as sinful as premarital sex, but I'm not gonna start a podcast called Concerned Copts...todays youth are just 'passionate' and have less self-control than they did in the past....plus porn is everywhere, so give us the rights to act the way we want!" While, as youth we may struggle with remaining pure, the key word here is STRUGGLE meaning AGAINST it, not going with the flow habibi.
If you are struggling with homosexuality and don't want to be labeled or pointed at or cause a big scene, then don't act/dress/do anything conspicuous. Be humble and keep your struggles between yourself, your father of confession, a few close friends maybe and definitely God. E finito la musica!
Hello Albert,
I was wondering if you could summerise the points made in the pod-cast? I think there needs to be some clarity for the direction or stand that has been made by concerned copts or yourself.
My prayers are for peace of heart for all.
@Joshuaa
Hello, and thanks for your question. The main points would be this:
- We, as Christians, should not tie ourselves to the State, the government, trying to create some Christian Utopia in whatever land we live.
- We are hypocrites when we ask for one thing here in the West, and another in Egypt/Sudan. E.g. We say to gays here "This is our country, this is how marriage is going to work, we dont care how it makes you feel". We as Copts feel happy to say this. Then in Egypt the Muslims say "This is our country, this is how marriage is going to work, we dont care how it makes you feel". We get upset when the Muslims say this. This is the definition of hypocrisy.
- We, as Copts, should spread the word of Christ through our words, our Churches and our actions. Banning "sinful" things will not make things better, in fact it will make it worse. We need to learn the lessen from the Europeans. They tried what everyone on this thread is saying. Now their Jesus is bleeding to death. Their Church dwindles in numbers. We must learn from history. We must go back the Christianity when we were being persecuted. We loved Christ for Christ. Regardless of what the Emperor said or did. We are blessed now not to experience persecution again in the West. But what we are doing, acting like this, wanting to ban every vice, every sin, it is a poison chalice. It will kill us.
They are the important points. Everything else are just side issues.
Hi aosseily,
I'm a kiwi by the way. I think your right when it comes to state and religion and that was the road the catholics took. I also think that is what weakened the Catholic church and then weakened again by having protestants coming from them. So ended up been liberal in what started as conservative. In Eygpt the rulers were muslims, so in away, took the worldly (political) affairs away from the majority christian Copts.
The second points you made about hypocrisy I think are valid, but all of us show loyalty to what we believe in, so for the copts there are two rules: one is that marriage has been ordained by god to be between a man and a women, and the other is that homosexuality is a sin. I can see where your coming from though because you are saying we are both been discrimated against; Copts and homosexuals. Both feel as if they have rights concerning how they are in society. But the copts have spiritual responsibilities and that is not just the concerns of the rights of what this world offers. Even though copts and homosexuals are discrimated against, and both tragically suffer, the goals are different. So we can't go on the same path.
It may seem hypocritical that the copts should have sympathy in their plight but don't think homosexuals should have any. It is a spiritual matter for the copts and not just for rights. Hypocrates believe they have higher standards when they don't. The copts are going for a spiritual standard, which is a higher standard than basic human rights, so when it comes to the muslims in Eygpt, the law there is abused just like the pharisees did with the laws God gave Moses. The ones in power were unfair.
I think your right in your third comments about how Christ's message should be spread. But also I think the gospel by word and our actions by rightousness. For the church it is the bride of christ, so is the weaker part of the marriage and like what is ordained in the marriage: The bride obeys the husband and the husband repects the bride. When we obey we show loyality.
In the end God says the world will end one day and I do wonder what reckoning, if any, there will be with homosexuals? We are to look for the remission of sin but how we go about that I think you are right because Jesus asks us to make a chose in which way we go. However, homosexuals cannot expect to go to holy places and not repent for the sin.
I know in Sydney they have large gay parades so my thoughts are that the world has became more liberal. For me librals are creative and conservatives like to stay with what they have. But it comes down to what is happiness? I believe it is contentment. People who are content like things the way they are. But God wants us to go back to him and the copts believe they have the right way of doing that. In the middle east Christians have been driven out of their homelands, but homosexuals will always get to stay in theirs even when they are suffering.
I understand what your saying. Of course, we see what we have as the truth. We sincerely believe it. But we cant take the view that since OUR views are sincere and truthful, well then, we get to force them on everyone else......BUT....those Muslims and gays, they have non-reasonable, non-truthful reasons. In the end, there is only one principle at play here, the very wise idea that you do to others as you want done to yourself. There can be no "but" after this. It cant be...."Yeah Albert, I get what your saying, we say one thing to the Muslims and gays, and want another for ourselves......BUT". Mate, if we are being honest and consistent, and I think that's something God wants us to do (amongst other things), then we have to give to the Muslims, gays, atheists and any other group whatever we would want for ourselves.
So lets go back to the actual podcast. We Christians support the government defining marriage in our favor. Fine. Then we cant get upset when independent Senator Nick Xenophon suggests legislation telling Christians how THEIR (and mine) sacraments can be practiced. We just cant have it both ways. Either government gets the final say or they dont. It cant be "yeah, we love government, only when they do what we the Christians want". We must see the writing on the wall. Our numbers are dwindling. We WILL become a statistical minority in our lifetimes. But even if we were not, I would still have the same view.
Cheers.
The only issue I had with the podcast (and the follow-up in this forum's thread) is where is this discussion going?
With the exception of the second podcast on Concerned Copts, I found that there is no particular thesis to any of the podcast. Yes, some issues of concern were raised, especially with regards to hypocrisy in the Coptic church and its people, but there were no suggestions of repairing those issues or solutions from WITHIN the Christian tradition offered. The hope that was placed was ultimately in secular thought, rather than putting our hope on the Truth, who is a person, Jesus Christ the Son of God.
If the concerns raised by the podcasts try to find solutions in secular thought, they will end up going in circles, contradicting themselves with multiple methods, and in the end hurting themselves and others. However, if the podcasts are raising concerns and want those concerns to be healed by Christ, then I think we have a very reasonable and necessary service in this podcast!
Yes, it is necessary to look at our sins - even at the level of our culture and society, the hierarchy of the church, etc. - raise those concerns that are affecting our relationships with God, our own community, and other communities in the society we live in; and eventually try to find healing and strength in Christ, who in turn would send his Spirit to motivate us to make the world a better place for everyone to live in.
That's generally my thoughts on the podcasts.
With regards to the third podcast (discussed in this thread), I don't agree with the concept of anarchism. There are many reasons for that, but to keep this message short, suffice it to say that anarchism is ultimately atheism, because we believe in the God of the law of love.
At the same time, I don't agree with all the sides in the conversation. The Copts who use the political system to cry out for justice against other governments and religions, while at the same time are against the system for attempting to provide justice for homosexuals or bring to justice the clergy who abused children, is certainly hypocrisy. So in this sense, I agree with Albert's concern. On the other hand, reliance on the political system to bring about justice is hopeless, because the system itself can be abused by any belief which would contradict another belief. The "right" of "freedom of religion" does not make any sense in a multi-cultural and multi-religious pluralistic society, because it will ultimately destroy that society.
In other words, I think that in terms of politics, the idea of freedom of religion needs to be re-thought for our age and day. It's an idea that served its purpose in the past, when all the battles of religion in those Western countries were among different Christian denominations. Today's Western world is much more complex, with many religious and non-religious beliefs practiced, and even many new cults rising up and playing huge roles in political and social affairs. It can't work, if one religion has the right to keep crosses in a Christian school's classrooms, and another religion has the right to keep its followers in a room without being forced to see the cross in those classrooms; or a religion that has the right to keep its sacraments holy and without political interference, while another religious cult wants to have the right to offer child sacrifices.
The law can't treat all religions equally. What is fair treatment for one religion is usually injustice for another religion or belief.
The focus of such laws should not simple be the freedom of religion, but should be the preserving of life and happiness of those individuals practicing those religions. If a religion threatens the life of someone who practices that religion, or harms the life and happiness of those who don't practice it, then that's when the law should interfere with that religion, without coming up with terms like "extreme Muslims" and "extreme Christians" to separate the extreme from the moderate.
Well, with the discussion, I was actually surprised myself when the first few pages of the thread discussed issues un-related to the podcast, and its a shame that it did so.
You said "If the concerns raised by the podcasts try to find solutions in secular thought, they will end up going in circles, contradicting themselves with multiple methods, and in the end hurting themselves and others".
It's interesting that you made this point. As you can see, the post I put up just before your one was an attempt to summarise the podcast. Underlying the entire talk was the notion of hypocrisy and the commandment of Christ that we do to others what we want done to ourselves. I dont see how this is a secular solution. I dont think you can get any more Christian in a solution - Apply Christ's words!!!
In regards to Anarchism, you are right, its a small side point and should not really be discussed here. I have never heard anyone claim a link between it and atheism and would be interested in discussing. My email is linked to my profile if you ever have time.
I like the way you are going in the paragraphs after this. If I am interpreting you correctly, we need to create a proper baseline and say to religions "ok, before this line you are free to do as you please, if you cross it, we the society will interfere". If I have misunderstood you, let me know.
We love them as a person because Jesus taught us to love everybody, even our enemies. The only difference is that we are disappointed by their actions. It's like when in the Bible, (i forget exactly where, but i am sure you will find it familiar), it says that if someone has done something against you, then talk to him privately about the incident, and if he refuses to fix the situation either by saying sorry or doing what is necessary in the situation, then the Bible says, take another person with you who will be a witness and try again. If that doesn't work, then take him to the church to deal with, and if that doesn't work, then he shall be like a heathen or a tax collector to you. This is exactly how we view the gays. They have went against the canons of Christianity therefore going against our Church therefore we will respect them as people, but we won't like what they are doing, and we will try to avoid them because if we aren't strong enough they will influence us.
We, as Coptic Christians, shouldn't be trying to spread word, that gays are welcome because we love everyone even if your sexual orientation is against our beliefs. This is not true, we don't accept there actions, but we respect them as people and hope that they will be able to see the Truth sometime in their life, and to realize the dark they have been wandering in.
This is the Coptic Church's opinion on gays since the beginning, and it's not going to change just because homosexuality is the "new" thing now.
The podcast which this thread relates to has nothing to do with homosexuality and Im trying to keep it off that topic. If you have a chance, listen to the podcast and let me know what you think.
Cheers.
Hi aosseily,
Sorry if I used homosexuals in my post but it was to gain an understand of the topic which I think is about inconsistacy. I think we do have to use the word but because what we are doing requires a contradiction. To try to change from sinning we have to contradict it, so we can't be in contance with the sin. The Holy Spirit will do that and has far more grace than I would ever have.
If this is what we would want for ourselves because we know it's good? Why wouldn't we want it for someone else? Aren't we then treating others the way we want to be treated? I don't understand what you meant by force from the coptic church though. There would be concern if things are done by force.
I mean by force when we participate in the democratic process to criminalise certain behaviour because it is "sinful". This is force because as we all know, the cops will jump all over you, the courts will judge you and prison will break you. We have to realise that we create no incentive to do actual good when the society is basically putting guns to peoples heads saying "don't commit sin". Of course, Im not saying a society should be law-less, but that we as Christians should not place the bar so high, lest it swing and smack us on the ass.
Hope im more clear on that point.
Hi aosseily,
Criminal actions are against the law and have there associations with sin. They are normally enforced because of their affects on society. Laws have an association with loyalty as well because we obey them. I've said here many times obediance is loyalty. So I guess what people feel about criminal action is that it is disloyal. I certainly don't agree with laws that will question your loyalty as a member of society in many muslim countries.
Christ's love is free, but as an open invitation to go back to God. He paid for our sins and after that, if we sin, what dept do we owe?