I forgot what we do. maybe imikhail can enlighten us with some sources. I do remember thoo that when i once prayed a liturgy with abouna on a thursday during kiahk, he told me to say tai shory and not tee shory considering that is the ADVENT FAST.
Per the Tarteeb el Bay'aa ]souri was the only known hymn (at the time of its compiling) till the 18th century when tai souri was authored (as is apparent from the manuscripts of this era.
Per the Great Khoulagi of Abouna Abdel Messeih, printed in 1902 and from which all the existing books borrowed, it says that either could be said.
The determining hymn is which allelouia is prayed:
allelouia vai pe piehoou is prayed on Sundays and Saturdays except during Great Lent (Tarteeb Al Bay'aa and existing liturgical books.
allelouia je vmeu is prayed on all fast days, Saturdays and Sundays of Great Lent.
allelouia eiei eqoun is prayed on Great Lent weekdays.
Today, the practice whether to say ]souri or tai souri is determined as follows.
allelouia je vmeui goes hand in hand with ]souri
allelouia vai pe piehoou with tai souri
allelouia eiei eqoun with n;o te ]souri
Sorry for these details ... the short answer is to pray, during the Advent fast, allelouia je vmeui and ]souri on weekdays and to pray allelouia vai pe piehoou and tai souri on Sundays and saturdays.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148085#msg148085 date=1322524781] Per the Tarteeb el Bay'aa ]souri was the only known hymn (at the time of its compiling) till the 18th century Do you have a copy of this book? Pre-18th century seems too early. Can you get the exact name or give us an online address to check this book?
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12592.msg148087#msg148087 date=1322532689] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148085#msg148085 date=1322524781] Per the Tarteeb el Bay'aa ]souri was the only known hymn (at the time of its compiling) till the 18th century Do you have a copy of this book? Pre-18th century seems too early. Can you get the exact name or give us an online address to check this book?
Unfortunately Tarteeb Al Bay'aa is not online, It is available in print (3 books) among the books by late Bishop Samuel bishop of Kanater.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148089#msg148089 date=1322535960] [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12592.msg148087#msg148087 date=1322532689] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148085#msg148085 date=1322524781] Per the Tarteeb el Bay'aa ]souri was the only known hymn (at the time of its compiling) till the 18th century Do you have a copy of this book? Pre-18th century seems too early. Can you get the exact name or give us an online address to check this book?
Unfortunately Tarteeb Al Bay'aa is not online, It is available in print (3 books) among the books by late Bishop Samuel bishop of Kanater.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12592.msg148092#msg148092 date=1322539485] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148089#msg148089 date=1322535960] [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12592.msg148087#msg148087 date=1322532689] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148085#msg148085 date=1322524781] Per the Tarteeb el Bay'aa ]souri was the only known hymn (at the time of its compiling) till the 18th century Do you have a copy of this book? Pre-18th century seems too early. Can you get the exact name or give us an online address to check this book?
Unfortunately Tarteeb Al Bay'aa is not online, It is available in print (3 books) among the books by late Bishop Samuel bishop of Kanater.
where can i get those?
I got my copies from Egypt. Try the bookstores in shobra like Mar Mina, al Mahaba, ...
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148089#msg148089 date=1322535960] Unfortunately Tarteeb Al Bay'aa is not online, It is available in print (3 books) among the books by late Bishop Samuel bishop of Kanater.
What is the exact title and what is the publish date of the book you have? What volume and edition?
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12592.msg148095#msg148095 date=1322578814] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148089#msg148089 date=1322535960] Unfortunately Tarteeb Al Bay'aa is not online, It is available in print (3 books) among the books by late Bishop Samuel bishop of Kanater.
What is the exact title and what is the publish date of the book you have? What volume and edition?
Title Book: Tarteeb AL BAY'AA algoz' alawal (Volume One) Tarteeb AL BAY'AA algoz' altany (Volume Two) Tarteeb AL BAY'AA algoz' althaleth (Volume Three)
Compiler: ANBA SAMUEL OSKOF SHEBEEN ALKANATER WA TAWABE3HA
Publish Date: Not Listed
Publisher: ALNA3AM LELTEBA3A WA ALTAWREEDAT Rakam Al Eeda3 (ISBN): [From right to left) 8786/2000 (this is the number on volume two ... I do not have the other two volumes with me right now)
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12592.msg148096#msg148096 date=1322581051] when do we say 'je av mask ak'? only during christmas or throughout all kiahk?
[quote author=pharaoh123 link=topic=12592.msg148094#msg148094 date=1322576634] Does anybody know what the status is of the Synodal Committee that is evaluating Kiahk praises?
the committee's final decisions were put into the El-Sourian Kaihk Book hat we are talking about........yet many still use other sources.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148099#msg148099 date=1322585024] [quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12592.msg148096#msg148096 date=1322581051] when do we say 'je av mask ak'? only during christmas or throughout all kiahk?
From Kiahk 1 till the baramoun of epiphany.
I thought it is from Christmas (Kiahk 29) until the Baramoun of the Epiphany. During Kiahk we say "Je aki ak)
[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=12592.msg148104#msg148104 date=1322596636] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148099#msg148099 date=1322585024] [quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12592.msg148096#msg148096 date=1322581051] when do we say 'je av mask ak'? only during christmas or throughout all kiahk?
From Kiahk 1 till the baramoun of epiphany.
I thought it is from Christmas (Kiahk 29) until the Baramoun of the Epiphany. During Kiahk we say "Je aki ak)
You are right I am sorry.
Aki (1 Kiahk till Baramoun of the Feast of Nativity)
Awmask (Feast of Nativity till the Baraboun of Epiphany)
Do we say aki or aktwnk on the Sundays of Kiahk (as I gather it is aki during the month of Hatour even within the Advent fast) - and why? Oujai qen `P[C
From kiahk to the Resurrection (whenever it comes, we don't say aktonk--always akee--or tennav in tasbeha or nim ghar....even on a sunday. I know a couple of people who strongly feel that this is wrong. But I believe it makes sense: the Church lives with Christ in His life on earth celebrating different feasts accordingly.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12592.msg148452#msg148452 date=1323087316] Do we say aki or aktwnk on the Sundays of Kiahk (as I gather it is aki during the month of Hatour even within the Advent fast) - and why? Oujai qen `P[C
I just want to me a comment on the aki, aktwnk, awmask, ...
During the liturgical services, especially the Eucharist one, we really celebrate the incarnation, baptism, resurrection, ... all together.
However, the hymns express the season and the readings specifically the gospel. This is the general rule of how the hymns were organized.
With this in mind, we notice that the matin Sunday readings throughout the month of Hatour revolve around resurrection, so the Church organized the hymns to express the readings. From Kiahk to the Feast of resurrection, the matin readings do not mention the resurrection and thus we do not pray Dannaw, nim ghar khan ninoudy.
Also the Trinity praise revolve around the Gospel readings depending on the events concerning the 2nd person, our Lord Christ.
That makes perfect sense.. so does that mean that even between the feast of circumcision and the great lent we don't say aktwnk on Sundays? Don't think that's a very common practice though, is it?
That makes perfect sense.. so does that mean that even between the feast of circumcision and the great lent we don't say aktwnk on Sundays? Don't think that's a very common practice though, is it?
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12592.msg148485#msg148485 date=1323123112] That makes perfect sense.. so does that mean that even between the feast of circumcision and the great lent we don't say aktwnk on Sundays? Don't think that's a very common practice though, is it?
that's why i said many people disagree with it. BUT in almost all the khdmit shamas books i have seen, also Anba Mettaous rites book--they follw this rite. Also think of tennav and nim ghar--they are only said beginning from the resurrection, everyday till Pentecost, and every sunday thereafter until the last sunday of hatoor.
Comments
Does that book include English translations?
nope. sadly....no.
Per the Great Khoulagi of Abouna Abdel Messeih, printed in 1902 and from which all the existing books borrowed, it says that either could be said.
The determining hymn is which allelouia is prayed:
allelouia vai pe piehoou is prayed on Sundays and Saturdays except during Great Lent (Tarteeb Al Bay'aa and existing liturgical books.
allelouia je vmeu is prayed on all fast days, Saturdays and Sundays of Great Lent.
allelouia eiei eqoun is prayed on Great Lent weekdays.
Today, the practice whether to say ]souri or tai souri is determined as follows.
allelouia je vmeui goes hand in hand with ]souri
allelouia vai pe piehoou with tai souri
allelouia eiei eqoun with n;o te ]souri
Sorry for these details ... the short answer is to pray, during the Advent fast, allelouia je vmeui and ]souri on weekdays and to pray allelouia vai pe piehoou and tai souri on Sundays and saturdays.
Per the Tarteeb el Bay'aa ]souri was the only known hymn (at the time of its compiling) till the 18th century
Do you have a copy of this book? Pre-18th century seems too early. Can you get the exact name or give us an online address to check this book?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148085#msg148085 date=1322524781]
Per the Tarteeb el Bay'aa ]souri was the only known hymn (at the time of its compiling) till the 18th century
Do you have a copy of this book? Pre-18th century seems too early. Can you get the exact name or give us an online address to check this book?
Unfortunately Tarteeb Al Bay'aa is not online, It is available in print (3 books) among the books by late Bishop Samuel bishop of Kanater.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12592.msg148087#msg148087 date=1322532689]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148085#msg148085 date=1322524781]
Per the Tarteeb el Bay'aa ]souri was the only known hymn (at the time of its compiling) till the 18th century
Do you have a copy of this book? Pre-18th century seems too early. Can you get the exact name or give us an online address to check this book?
Unfortunately Tarteeb Al Bay'aa is not online, It is available in print (3 books) among the books by late Bishop Samuel bishop of Kanater.
where can i get those?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148089#msg148089 date=1322535960]
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12592.msg148087#msg148087 date=1322532689]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148085#msg148085 date=1322524781]
Per the Tarteeb el Bay'aa ]souri was the only known hymn (at the time of its compiling) till the 18th century
Do you have a copy of this book? Pre-18th century seems too early. Can you get the exact name or give us an online address to check this book?
Unfortunately Tarteeb Al Bay'aa is not online, It is available in print (3 books) among the books by late Bishop Samuel bishop of Kanater.
where can i get those?
I got my copies from Egypt. Try the bookstores in shobra like Mar Mina, al Mahaba, ...
Unfortunately Tarteeb Al Bay'aa is not online, It is available in print (3 books) among the books by late Bishop Samuel bishop of Kanater.
What is the exact title and what is the publish date of the book you have? What volume and edition?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148089#msg148089 date=1322535960]
Unfortunately Tarteeb Al Bay'aa is not online, It is available in print (3 books) among the books by late Bishop Samuel bishop of Kanater.
What is the exact title and what is the publish date of the book you have? What volume and edition?
Title Book:
Tarteeb AL BAY'AA algoz' alawal (Volume One)
Tarteeb AL BAY'AA algoz' altany (Volume Two)
Tarteeb AL BAY'AA algoz' althaleth (Volume Three)
Compiler:
ANBA SAMUEL OSKOF SHEBEEN ALKANATER WA TAWABE3HA
Publish Date:
Not Listed
Publisher:
ALNA3AM LELTEBA3A WA ALTAWREEDAT
Rakam Al Eeda3 (ISBN):
[From right to left) 8786/2000 (this is the number on volume two ... I do not have the other two volumes with me right now)
when do we say 'je av mask ak'? only during christmas or throughout all kiahk?
From Kiahk 1 till the baramoun of epiphany.
Does anybody know what the status is of the Synodal Committee that is evaluating Kiahk praises?
the committee's final decisions were put into the El-Sourian Kaihk Book hat we are talking about........yet many still use other sources.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12592.msg148096#msg148096 date=1322581051]
when do we say 'je av mask ak'? only during christmas or throughout all kiahk?
From Kiahk 1 till the baramoun of epiphany.
I thought it is from Christmas (Kiahk 29) until the Baramoun of the Epiphany. During Kiahk we say "Je aki ak)
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12592.msg148099#msg148099 date=1322585024]
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12592.msg148096#msg148096 date=1322581051]
when do we say 'je av mask ak'? only during christmas or throughout all kiahk?
From Kiahk 1 till the baramoun of epiphany.
I thought it is from Christmas (Kiahk 29) until the Baramoun of the Epiphany. During Kiahk we say "Je aki ak)
You are right I am sorry.
Aki (1 Kiahk till Baramoun of the Feast of Nativity)
Awmask (Feast of Nativity till the Baraboun of Epiphany)
Oujai qen `P[C
Do we say aki or aktwnk on the Sundays of Kiahk (as I gather it is aki during the month of Hatour even within the Advent fast) - and why?
Oujai qen `P[C
I just want to me a comment on the aki, aktwnk, awmask, ...
During the liturgical services, especially the Eucharist one, we really celebrate the incarnation, baptism, resurrection, ... all together.
However, the hymns express the season and the readings specifically the gospel. This is the general rule of how the hymns were organized.
With this in mind, we notice that the matin Sunday readings throughout the month of Hatour revolve around resurrection, so the Church organized the hymns to express the readings. From Kiahk to the Feast of resurrection, the matin readings do not mention the resurrection and thus we do not pray Dannaw, nim ghar khan ninoudy.
Also the Trinity praise revolve around the Gospel readings depending on the events concerning the 2nd person, our Lord Christ.
Hope this helps.
That makes perfect sense.. so does that mean that even between the feast of circumcision and the great lent we don't say aktwnk on Sundays? Don't think that's a very common practice though, is it?
that's why i said many people disagree with it. BUT in almost all the khdmit shamas books i have seen, also Anba Mettaous rites book--they follw this rite. Also think of tennav and nim ghar--they are only said beginning from the resurrection, everyday till Pentecost, and every sunday thereafter until the last sunday of hatoor.
Oujai