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What altar objects are consecrated in the Coptic Church?

Anthonypk7Anthonypk7
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
What altar objects are consecrated in the Coptic Church? and what aren't ?? I heard that the "awany" aren't consecrated bc they already become consecrated by the body and blood of Jesus... any clarification???

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=✞Je Nai Nan✞ link=topic=12650.msg148504#msg148504 date=1323140559]
    What altar objects are consecrated in the Coptic Church? and what aren't ?? I heard that the "awany" aren't consecrated bc they already become consecrated by the body and blood of Jesus... any clarification???

    awany MUST be consecrated to be used............
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=✞Je Nai Nan✞ link=topic=12650.msg148504#msg148504 date=1323140559]
    What altar objects are consecrated in the Coptic Church? and what aren't ?? I heard that the "awany" aren't consecrated bc they already become consecrated by the body and blood of Jesus... any clarification???


    The Chalice, the paten, the mestir, the wooden board (underneath the throne), the altar itself (if permanent)
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Everything is consecrated including the altar itself.  The altar board is a temporary feature until the altar is consecrated.  There are prayers in the Book of Consecrations and Ordinations that specifies each item.  This is a continuation of the practice from the Old Testament.
  • imikhailimikhail

    Everything is consecrated including the altar itself.

    The following items are not consecrated:

    The censor, the throne, the incense box, the altar cloths, the water vessels, the cross, and Al Beshara.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    I.m.,

    I beg to differ.  In the Arabic/Coptic Book (not the English), all items on the altar are to be consecrated.  The English is an abbreviated book.  It is not comprehensive.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    So are we not allowed to touch anything consecrated or anything that touches the Holy Body and Blood?
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    SubDeacons and higher are really the only ones that should be touching anything in the Altar.
    Deacons/Archdeacons may hold the Chalice as it is filled with the Holy Blood.

    There is no mandate that allows a Reader or Psalter to serve in the altar let alone touch anything in
    the Altar.  It is not there ministry, nor their consecrated commission.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12650.msg148538#msg148538 date=1323196410]
    I.m.,

    I beg to differ.  In the Arabic/Coptic Book (not the English), all items on the altar are to be consecrated.  The English is an abbreviated book.  It is not comprehensive.


    Do not take this personally .. This is not correct information.
  • TITLTITL
    So in the new generation, computers and iPads will be consecrated?
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    The information is correct.  It is just not carried out.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12650.msg148560#msg148560 date=1323213002]
    The information is correct.  It is just not carried out.


    Per the manuscripts we have, the information is incorrect.
  • servant33servant33
    Thank you for the information. Please post references, and claims will be evaluated by an impartial third party
  • imikhailimikhail
    /
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    The Standard Coptic/Arabic is in the Churches (the English translations are not full references).
  • TITLTITL
    Servant33,

    My EEP and Credibility Meter Instinct is telling me ILSM is going to win this one.
  • TITLTITL
    Oh and the next 8937 disputes are ILSM too. Just a guess.

    Btw, totally not partial or anything.
  • imikhailimikhail
    If you like to read about the consecration, here are three of the most important sources:

    Tarteeb Al Kahana by Sawiros Ibn Al Mokafaa3 starting on P.42
    Al Jawhara Al Nafeesa By Ibn Kebar the 2nd Book
    Al Laale Al Nafeesa by Akareya Ibn Sebaa3 El Bab 60 - 65
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    I.M.,

    I'm not contesting the manuscripts, not in the slightest.

    Certain things evolved in the Church.  The book that I mentioned is standard issued and accepted by the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church.

    There are plenty of practices and rites that have been changed and would be in conflict with old manuscripts, examples:
    1.  There used to be a Rite for a 40 day Memorial for a deceased soul, which has been removed.
    2.  There used to be a Rite for a 1 year Memorial for a deceased soul, which has been removed.
    3.  There used to be more than Three Divine Liturgies, and that has been changed.
    4.  The Oblations used to be placed on the Holy Altar for the Litany of the Oblations during Matins, but that has been changed.

    In the Armenian Church, in certain jurisdictions they do not consecrate the Chalice or the Paten, because for them the Holy Body and Holy Blood take care of the consecration process/sequence.

    There was never a defined rank of Epsaltos (Psaltos or Psalter) but there is now.

    The Tradition of the Old Testament, as a point, defines that everything needs to be consecrated.

    The same Book of Ordination and Consecration is specific about the roles of the ranks of the Deacons (which ties into another thread) but that has a very loose interpretation as of modern decades.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12650.msg148650#msg148650 date=1323285423]
    I.M.,


    There was never a defined rank of Epsaltos (Psaltos or Psalter) but there is now.


    So would the deacons wear the badrashin right away?
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12650.msg148650#msg148650 date=1323285423]
    I.M.,

    I'm not contesting the manuscripts, not in the slightest.

    Certain things evolved in the Church.  The book that I mentioned is standard issued and accepted by the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church.

    There are plenty of practices and rites that have been changed and would be in conflict with old manuscripts, examples:
    1.  There used to be a Rite for a 40 day Memorial for a deceased soul, which has been removed.
    2.  There used to be a Rite for a 1 year Memorial for a deceased soul, which has been removed.
    3.  There used to be more than Three Divine Liturgies, and that has been changed.
    4.  The Oblations used to be placed on the Holy Altar for the Litany of the Oblations during Matins, but that has been changed.

    In the Armenian Church, in certain jurisdictions they do not consecrate the Chalice or the Paten, because for them the Holy Body and Holy Blood take care of the consecration process/sequence.

    There was never a defined rank of Epsaltos (Psaltos or Psalter) but there is now.

    The Tradition of the Old Testament, as a point, defines that everything needs to be consecrated.

    The same Book of Ordination and Consecration is specific about the roles of the ranks of the Deacons (which ties into another thread) but that has a very loose interpretation as of modern decades.



    ISLM,

    I am not sure where are you getting your information from.

    There is a HUGE difference between removed and not done, or skipped over.

    We can discuss each point you mentioned, but I do not want to change the subject of this thread.

    Can you please tell us the reference that you are using regarding consecration? If possible please list the sources that the this book is using (if any).
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=12650.msg148651#msg148651 date=1323286413]
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12650.msg148650#msg148650 date=1323285423]
    I.M.,


    There was never a defined rank of Epsaltos (Psaltos or Psalter) but there is now.


    So would the deacons wear the badrashin right away?


    The rank of Ebsaltos was in the Coptic Church since at least Pope Athansius the 20th.

    The rank has been neglected in modern era, but Pope Shenouda revived it.

    The answer of your question is No if you are bsaltos.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Unfortunately I live in three zip codes depending on the day of the week and I cannot put the book into my hand right now.

    The book is the cranberry red with brown leather binding of the Rites of Ordination and Consecration.  Every church has a copy.

    The Prayers of the consecration for each item and groupings of items are in there; ie, they will use the same prayers for multiple items.

    Psaltos is not a rank.  It is not an ordination.  I think that issue was thrashed out several times.
    It is a consecration to service, but not an ordination.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12650.msg148675#msg148675 date=1323292927]
    Unfortunately I live in three zip codes depending on the day of the week and I cannot put the book into my hand right now.

    The book is the cranberry red with brown leather binding of the Rites of Ordination and Consecration.  Every church has a copy.


    In the Southern Diocese, we use a different book.

    I am curious to find out what is the source, the book you mentioned, is using


    Psaltos is not a rank.  It is not an ordination.  I think that issue was thrashed out several times.


    There is a difference between a rank and clergy ordination. A rank does not necessitate ordination while the opposite is true.

    The introduction to the Didascalia mentions the seven orders of the Church:

    1. Bishop,
    2. Priest,
    3. Deacons,
    4. Subdeacons,
    5. Reader,
    6. Psalmists, and
    7. Doorkeepers.

    St Athanasius in his 10th canon lists the seven orders as well.  In addition, his 12th canon details the specifics of the bsaltos rank.

    The council of Ladicea's canon 15 specifies the rank of the bsaltos.

    Hope this clears the confusion.

    It is a consecration to service, but not an ordination.

    Consecration takes place as a result of consecration. So, since there is no ordination for the rank of basaltos, then there could be no consecration. Consecration starts with the ordination of the full deacon which is the first clerical rank.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    The Book of Ordinations and Consecrations does not have Psalter in it at all (the same printing that I mentioned earlier).  When the Psalter was introduced 1/3 into the Papacy of Pope Shenouda III, they would read the prayers for the Reader, but would change out the word and insert "Psalter".  Other Bishops would have laminated sheets whereby someone re-wrote the same Prayers for the Reader and inserted "Psalter".  In the English printings they formalized the switch out of the words.

    When I used the word "rank", I was alluding to the aspect that people equate the Psalter to being a rank of the diaconate; which it is not.  This has been repeated through several threads.

    "Consecration" is being used in the sense of being commissioned to a particular duty or ministry.

    You are trying to be letter set with every word to try to make some huge case.

    The Souther Diocese has its own translations and books, which is fine. 

    There was a girl of about 13 years old who was posting earlier about being a "deaconess" in the Southern Diocese.  Now, we know that can't be true, but the little girl thought that putting on a tunic and the priest signing the cross on it made her a "deaconess".

    Bottom line:  the deacons are not fulfilling their service and neither are the Psalters.

    I am not going to get into a debate about the issue or be long-winded.  Help yourself to the board.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12650.msg148707#msg148707 date=1323303039]
    The Book of Ordinations and Consecrations does not have Psalter in it at all (the same printing that I mentioned earlier).  When the Psalter was introduced 1/3 into the Papacy of Pope Shenouda III, they would read the prayers for the Reader, but would change out the word and insert "Psalter".  Other Bishops would have laminated sheets whereby someone re-wrote the same Prayers for the Reader and inserted "Psalter".  In the English printings they formalized the switch out of the words.

    When I used the word "rank", I was alluding to the aspect that people equate the Psalter to being a rank of the diaconate; which it is not.  This has been repeated through several threads.

    "Consecration" is being used in the sense of being commissioned to a particular duty or ministry.

    You are trying to be letter set with every word to try to make some huge case.

    The Souther Diocese has its own translations and books, which is fine. 

    There was a girl of about 13 years old who was posting earlier about being a "deaconess" in the Southern Diocese.  Now, we know that can't be true, but the little girl thought that putting on a tunic and the priest signing the cross on it made her a "deaconess".

    Bottom line:  the deacons are not fulfilling their service and neither are the Psalters.

    I am not going to get into a debate about the issue or be long-winded.  Help yourself to the board.


    You are being defensive ISLM. My intention was not to get you up in arms but rather shed the light on the psalter rank.

    I am sorry that I upset you.
  • TITLTITL
    I asked a bishop, and he said "everything should be consecrated (including censor, the throne, incense box, altar cloths, water vessels, the cross, and al behsara), but not all of them are anointed by the Holy Myron".

    ILSM, your credibility score just increased by a decimal: 3.5. Good work!
  • servant33servant33
    [quote author=TITL link=topic=12650.msg148763#msg148763 date=1323360522]
    I asked a bishop

    HGBY?
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=TITL link=topic=12650.msg148763#msg148763 date=1323360522]
    I asked a bishop, and he said "everything should be consecrated (including censor, the throne, incense box, altar cloths, water vessels, the cross, and al behsara), but not all of them are anointed by the Holy Myron".

    ILSM, your credibility score just increased by a decimal: 3.5. Good work!


    By default consecration is done through the Holy Myron. I am not sure what the bishop meant.

    The Shorya is prayed on before usage but it is not consecrated. The ones I listed in my earlier post are the only ones consecrated by the Myron.
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